Are you suggesting that the average Spanish person is more likely to commit a crime because s/he is unemployed?

I am 81 yrs old and have been to Madrid, among other Spanish cities, 4 times in the last 10 months for 3-4 days each time. Lovely2see I have never felt threatened,nor was accosted or robbed. I never carry a purse but do have a fanny pack around my waist ( under a loose, open shirt) with my camera, lip balm, Advil etc. in it. My credit cards are in a small folder under one bra strap and my passport under the other strap.If I have much $$$ (LOL) it will be found in a light weight money belt. Never have worried and I might qualify as an easy mark due to age...Madrid seems to have alot of police in the main squares and they are always alert as far as I have seen. Do not let the negative remarks scare you off..Have a great time but stay aware of your surroundings and cross the street if you feel uncomfortable...

Sounds like a fair question to me

John, which question are you referring to? I asked one; lovely2c asked two.

Lovely2see sounds a little apprehensive and I certainly understand her questions..However there will always be hands holding little cups,open palms and pleading words..Just shake your head and/ot ignore and continue on your way.Unless Madrid has drastically changed in 2 months the unemployment rate shouldn't have increased the crime rate in Madrid. Tony.. are you not being a little snide?? John, it certainly was/is a fair question..but not one to be overly concerned about IMO..

OP's fair question, but no I would not worry, but like all cities becoming a victim is all about body language so do usual things and enjoy.

Um, at a guess unemployment in the US is worse than in Spain (since we calculate it so differently). As for violent crime - any US city is liable to have way more than any place in Spain. If you're concerned about pickpockets - well there have been 500 threads on how to avoid them,

No, amer_can, I am not being snide. On the other hand, I (naturally) think my question was a fair one.

For what it is worth, I live in Andalucía, the region that has the highest level of unemployment in Spain. I travel frequently to Seville and Málaga and see no obvious signs of increased crime levels that would trouble your average tourist.

I asked "Are you suggesting that the average Spanish person is more likely to commit a crime because s/he is unemployed?" That is because the questions posed by lovely2c come across as something disagreeable to me.

Well my advice would be not to carry around your passport, large amounts of cash and more than one credit card (with a second one back at your hotel). That way if you would be robbed it will not be a disaster. In Barcelona, and perhaps Madrid, there are some very professional pick-pockets - I don't think it is connected to unemployment - these folks have been pretty well employed in this chosen profession for many years. And they are quite good at what they do. So limit what you are carrying on any given outing just in case and have backup resources. We were victims several years ago in Barcelona - the crooks actually just took the cash and threw away the credit cards in a nearby bin. Not a pleasant experience but no reason to stop traveling.

Perhaps the OP has recently seen the clashes with police in support of the miners on tv. Stay out of the Puerta del Sol where these demonstrations take place, esp. if you hear that something is happening there. You won't be missing anything, and you will avoid crowds which is where most pickpocketing, etc. takes place.

I'm a 76-year-old woman who usually travels solo.

I've spent time in Madrid four times in the last few years, including in 2011 and 2012, and had no difficulty whatsoever.

Ditto in Málaga, despite the fact that my guidebook said that Málaga warned that because of the high unemployment rate, there was some crime. I had a very pleasant week in Málaga in April of this year and also of last year, and was impressed by the friendliness of the people I met.

Barcelona is another story. My sister's purse was stolen while we were having dinner in la Boqueria in 2006, and a woman attempted to rob me on the train to Montserrat. I don't know whether she was trying to take my purse or just find my wallet--but I ain't as dumb as I look. I realized what was going on and moved my purse out of her reach. She thereupon left the train with her companion.

Neither of these experiences would stop me from visiting Barcelona again. It is a wonderful city with fabulous architecture.

My advice is always the same: Wear a money belt. My money belt was what saved the theft of my sister's purse from being a disaster. She had asked me to put her debit card and her passport in my money belt--the only time she ever did that--so that all she lost was a camera.

Pegontheroad..You're my kind of gal!!! We seem to belong to the unstoppables!! Tony, as you interpreted lovely2see wrongly I did likewise with your comment..Sorry and BTW how lucky can you get???Living in Andalucia!! If this were in technicolor you would see me green with envy..

I am younger then you but small and petite and have traveled around the Madrid this spring solo. My advice, bring only enough money for your needs, leave valuables in hotel safe-including passport-keep a copy on you. I walked through some deserted streets at night and never was accosted. Madrid is pretty safe for a major city and many people are out and about late at night. I did see on the Spanish news that Barcelona is experiencing a spike in crime so I would be extra vigilant in that city.

Although the economic situation is grim, the Spanish people for the most part are friendly and helpful. I had a great time in Madrid as a singleton and I met other solo women as well. Just take the usual precautions and enjoy Spain. Still miss the tapas and cafe con leches.

I miss it all!!! Will be back unless I am called up yonder first!!

Well my advice would be not to carry around your passport, large amounts of cash and more than one credit card (with a second one back at your hotel).>>

you might have problems buying anything with a credit card in a shop unless you have your passport on you, at least that was my experience in el cort 'ingles in Madrid, when i wanted to buy a present for my daughter. I did happen to have it, and I suppose that if you were prepared to pay with cash, you'd be ok.

<< so that all she lost was a camera >>

I'd rather lose the passport and ATM card than the camera.

Every place I went to in Spain/ (Oct, 2011, 4 weeks, Apr.2012 4 weeks)/ (Madrid, Salmanca,Burgos, San Seb., Santiago, Sergovia, Avila) and tried to but anything with my Chase Visa I had to show my passport. Large stores,groceries, markets, small stores train stations but not restuarants..made no difference. "Passport please".

Many thanks to all who replied. While I'm not enthusiastic about increasing the circumference of my middle, I will buy a money belt and avoid the Puerta del Sol area. To respond to TonyBishop - I believe there is a correlation between unemployment and crime rates. I believe that correlation to hold true just about everywhere in general but I happen to be going to Madrid in particular.

I just returned from a month in Spain. I had just arrived in Madrid when I was relieved of my backpack while negotiating a rental car. It was at my feet. It is possible, after so many years going overseas with no mishaps, that I became less alert (and the red-eye flight didn't help that), but I was grateful that I always keep cash, credit cards and my passport around my neck at all times, causing an increase in the circumference of my torso rather than my middle (take your pick!) In any case, the missing backpack didn't ruin the trip but was a bit disappointing.

I agree about the correlation between unemployment and crime, because desperate people sometimes do things they wouldn't do if they had what they needed, and that there is nothing wrong with your question.
In addition to the neck wallet, I travel with a simple gold band wedding ring and no other jewelry to speak of. I also email myself all of my travel confirmations, passports, and credit cards, so I can access them remotely, just in case. I can say I have always felt very safe, at any hour, overseas. Enjoy your trip!

The people who rob tourists with the very rarest of exceptions are professional thieves. Poor people rob each other or may possibly take advantage of an opportunity -- an obvious rental car in an empty street or the like. They are not the people who snatch bags from your feet or cameras from your cafe table. Those people are quite well compensated by their activities, a form of employment, if you will.

When in Spain please be careful of the unemployed, the might strike you with their diplomas.

My question was this.

"Are you suggesting that the average Spanish person is more likely to commit a crime because s/he is unemployed?"

Now if we assume that everyone on here, including lovely2c, falls into the "average" category, do you accept that if you were unemployed you would be more likely to rob a tourist?

I know several unemployed Spanish people here and my guess is robbing a tourist is the last thing on their minds.

As Ackislander says, people who rob tourists, with the very rarest of exceptions, are professional thieves.

TonyBishop- I've never been unemployed (unless I wanted to be). But if I were unemployed, out of money and desperate, I really don't know what I would do. Today's Wall St Journal has an article about Spain discussing the possibility of entering Madrid into the contest for an Olympics and an editorial describing the Spanish government's tax/legal/social requirements imposed upon its businesses and citizens. Both articles state the youth unemployment rate is 52%. If I were a youth, especially an educated one, mired within a 52% unemployment rate then petty crime might look like a very attractive profession.
As for tourists' perception, one only needs to see what has happened to the tourism trade in Greece, especially in Athens.

Reading this with interest - but I have to admit, if I was unemployed I wouldnt bother stealing stuff from tourists - what on earth would I do with a camera, iPhone, laptop or someone's passport?? I honestly wouldnt have a clue how to use these to get money! Who do you call or take them to? How can you be sure there is even cash in a wallet nowadays (I dont carry cash at all)...

I think I would probably turn to something like shoplifting - at least I would get what I could use...

I hope I never have to be put in that situation

@lovely2c. So are you in fact saying that if you were unemployed you would start stealing from tourists? Because that is the implication.

I don´t think you would. And I think that you would look for other measures, honest or dishonest. At least I hope you would.

There is absolutely NO academic research that connects theft from tourists with unemployment. So everything else is purely anecdotal.

In your original post you asked:
"Anybody have any recent experiences (good or bad) they can share?" In my reply on Jul 15, 12 at 7:41pm I answered that question as best as I could. Not Madrid, I grant you, but things are pretty bad in Málaga and Seville, probably worse than in Madrid.

I trust you are not suggesting that the Spanish are more likely to start robbing tourists when they are unemployed than are other nationalities, such as Americans. But if my trust is misplaced, I suggest you state that outright.

Jamikins writes, "I think I would probably turn to something like shoplifting - at least I would get what I could use..."

Yep.

I would probably begin hitting politicians, rather than robbing unsuspecting tourists. I have a loooong list, and they belong to all parties, let´s not discriminate

And, as jamikins has pointed out, the biggest problem right now is the increase in shoplifting at supermarkets and the likes.

Bye, Cova

I do think this subject merits further serious discussion. If someone thinks the economic situation is going to turn Spaniards into marauding hordes, then there nothing reasonable that can change their minds.

Based on some of the issues discussed above I should never have holidayed in Mororcco, Libya, Tunisia, Syria, where unemployment is rife and yet amazingly I've not been stolen from.

It is not poverty that leads to theft. It is a mind set that sees other's property as your own that does.

OP please go to Spain, just take care on Las Ramblas in Barcelona.

"It is not poverty that leads to theft. It is a mind set that sees other's property as your own that does."
I think that sums it up quite nicely.

Hey, we´re hard up. There´s a tourist - let´s rob him/her.
How?
I dunno.
What should we steal?
I dunno the answer to that either.
Aww, let´s leave that to the professionals who at least know what they´re doing.
Yep, I think you´re right.

As for tourists' perception, one only needs to see what has happened to the tourism trade in Greece, especially in Athens.>>

a good friend just got back from a month in Greece. she said that apart from Athens, Greece is open for business as usual. everyone busy and going about their normal lives. that are learning to live with the new reality, but there are no great demonstrations or the collapse of greek civilisation. no crime explosion. sounds like a good time to go.

Thats good to know annhig...we will be in Greece, including Athens at the end of Aug so will report back!

'I trust you are not suggesting that the Spanish are more likely to start robbing tourists when they are unemployed than are other nationalities, such as Americans. But if my trust is misplaced, I suggest you state that outright.'
I also trust that's the case, but somehow I doubt it. It wouldn't be the first time that something like that is stated in this forum.

. Anybody have any recent experiences (good or bad) they can share?>

My sister-in-law was mugged, violently, one Sunday morning - early in front of Atocha train station - she was not wearing any jewelry, had an expensive camera or anything - but she did have a day pack on and the thief wanted to get the bag - he knocked her down into the street and tried to get the day pack off - my sis-in-law also tried to get the day pack off to let the guy have it as it had nothing of value in it but she could not - she ended up bruised and bloodied.

Nearby shopkeepers opening shops stood by and did nothing.

And if you Google muggings in Madrid you will get zillions of similar experiences in Madrid and Barcelona. Rare for Europe where there are lots of pickpockets everywhere but rarely muggings.

Take proper precautions - and many folks above say they have never experienced any problems so it is not like it will happen but just that in Madrid it is a real problem, regardless of how some may either not realize it or gloss it over for some reason.

Two cousins who live in Galicia who are completing their graduate degress have decided instead of turning to a life of crime are leaving the country to look for work.

PalenQ. That is a very sad tale. My comiserations to your sister-in-law.

I don´t suppose s/he said they were unemployed, or that it was his/her first or 100th theft, did they?

By the way, can anybody satisfactorily define "mugging"? It seems to mean a lot of things to different people. One dictionary defines mugging as "an assault with intent to rob".

But I have seen the word "mugging" used to describe all kinds of theft, regardless of whether the theft was accompanied by violence or not.

'And if you Google muggings in Madrid you will get zillions of similar experiences in Madrid and Barcelona. Rare for Europe where there are lots of pickpockets everywhere but rarely muggings.' You will also find zillions of similar stories if you google mugged in London/ in New York / in Paris / in Miami... Of course, only people who have had any problems post it on the net. No one whites ' i went to ..... And wasn't mugged'.

I'm very sorry about your sister in law, but that could have happened anywhere. Unfortunately, there are thieves in all cities. The question here is that it seems to be suggested that unemployed people in Madrid are turning into criminals, and that's not so. It's bad enough to have economic problems and idiot poticians who can't solve them. We don't need to be tagged as criminals just because we have those problems.

Pal - your poor SIL. When did it happen?

annhig, "one Sunday morning". Year and month not yet specified

Just thought I'd throw in the fact that when unemployment is high in the U.S., the crime rates go up. When the economy improves, the crime rate goes down.

I think the question is - do crimes against tourists go up in the US? I have no doubt crime goes up, so does fraud.

And I wasn't being snarky, I am honestly curious!

I was pickpocketed on my only trip to Turkey. AND I put my wallet in front pocket for protection. Otherwise it was a sensational trip and a place to where I would return.

Many years ago, we were in the Alfama in Lisbon and housewives were warning us to be careful of my camera. So we did.

Why are people so traumatized and fearful by one event. It could be becasue I have lived in NYC and I am streetwise, but adults have to learn to deal with life and not be paralyzed.

If you want clean go to a computer chip factory. If you want safe go to your grandmother's. Assuming she does not live on the streets of Barcelona or Madrid.

Though sadly Adu has been known to mistakenly wear his pants backwards.

Though sadly Adu has been known to mistakenly wear his pants backwards.

No wonder I cannot find my house keys.

Pal - your poor SIL. When did it happen?>

I was about four years ago in October very early on a Sunday morning - they were going to catch an AVE train to Seville - I hear similar incidents still happening a lot - there have been some threads on Fodor's saying so and again just Googling Muggings Madrid yields zillions of similar stories (when done for other European cities like Paris you get very few - talking about muggings, which to me means robbery by physical violence.

The attacker was not an ethnic Spaniard as most seem to be immmigrants, probably unemployed and often drug addicts - a black African in this case - Spain has a real problem with drug addiction and this often results in street crimes anywhere that problem raises its ugly head.

Again most people will not be mugged - my sis in law had been to Barcelona and Madrid several times and never had any problem - nor have I in my many visits to those cities. But it does happen and take precautions like not wearing valuables visibly, etc.

4 years ago, you say, PalenQ. I have it on good authority that they caught the guy 3 years ago.

lovely2c asked "Anybody have any recent experiences (good or bad) they can share?" I am not sure that 4 years ago counts as recent. It would not for me anyway.

Again, I disagree. If you google Mugging Madrid you get lots of stories about an email scam. Right, if yu google Mugging Paris you get lots of links about a song. Try Mugged Paris. There are even videos.

(I repeat myself, I'm not saying Paris is unsafe while Madrid is safe. All I'm saying is that only terrifying stories are posted, wherever they happen. And it's unfair to suggest that unemployed people will resort to mug tourists.)

I was deisagreeing with PalenQ, not with TonyBishop.

Yes, I understood that, Agosto. Although I live in Spain, I am not Spanish. Nonetheless I find it quite offensive when I read that unemployed people are more likely to rob tourists.

For a start, a criminal record will not help you to get a job when you come out of prison. But, as we both know, that is the least important of the issues surrounding this.

i think that we can ALL agree that it's a good idea to keep an eye on your belongings, especially amongst crowds.

I suspect that applies as much in Time Square as it does in Las Ramblas.

ovely2c asked "Anybody have any recent experiences (good or bad) they can share?" I am not sure that 4 years ago counts as recent. It would not for me anyway.>

Fodorites have reported similar incicents in Barcelona in recent months.

Madrid and Barcelona have a serious problem with muggings that most other European cities simply do not have - again a mugging is a violent physical attack - this if a FACT believe it or not. As a professional European travel write even though retired I do keep in good contact with what is happening around Europe - you can believe it or not. I do not care but will continue to warn folks to be on their guard, be leery of anyone coming up to them and avoid isolated places in those two cities whose officials should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this activity, done by a relative handful of folks, to continue.

To say those cities have no problems and are much like Paris, etc is just pure misinformation and a disservice to novice folks traveling there.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/02/29/inenglish/1330525830_253456.html

http://web.nmsu.edu/~wcomer/mugged.htm

Even the manager of Tottenham Spurs football team was mugged in Madrid!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12257958

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/item_WfLV7V8VLkM9RrJYy1EWBI

And yes it seems as if Paris has experienced a spate of muggings in recent months - so I retract what I said about Paris - but muggings are extremely rare in Europe in general - very rare - street crime is rife, like pickpockets and scam artists but rarely any threat of physical violence. Getting pickpocketed quietly and violently mugged are two very different things IMO.

i think that we can ALL agree that it's a good idea to keep an eye on your belongings, especially amongst crowds.

I suspect that applies as much in Time Square as it does in Las Ramblas.
______

NYC is the safest large city in America and while it is always wise to be alert, there have not been reports of wide spread pickpocketing or mugging at Times Square. One reason for that is Times Square is always considered a target for terrorists and there is a big police presence there.

But still there are few reports of wide spread crime, although crime must exist.

Bad things happen everywhere, that's for sure. And things happen in Madrid and Barcelona. Barcelona seems to have a heavier reputation for pick-pockets than Madrid. I'm constantly in contact with tourists coming to Madrid and can only remember one instance in the last 6 years of someone "losing" a laptop they left on a public counter/table and turned away. I've never had my pocket-picked here in Madrid in my (nearly) 7-years of residence here, but I am very careful, too. I wear a shoulder bag everywhere and don't usually take it off in restaurants to eat unless I'm in the corner.

And don't worry so much about not looking like a Spaniard. Pick-pockets target EVERYONE, Spaniards and tourists alike. There are tourists everywhere in Madrid and they're pretty easy to spot, of course. Just keep your eyes open, your items in front of you, don't fall for distractions and you'll be fine.

There's definitely a visibly increased police presence because of the daily demonstrations, but that's not something you should worry about. The only possible discomfort of visiting Madrid these days is if your hotel is facing or adjacent to the Puerta del Sol or along the demonstration's march path.

I'm pretty confident you'll finish your visit to Madrid asking yourself, "What was I so worried about?!" Enjoy Madrid!

Saludos, MadridMan - an American in Madrid - @ you-know-where!!

I'm pretty confident you'll finish your visit to Madrid asking yourself, "What was I so worried about?!>

No they should realize that they should have been worried and being so in part was the reason they were not victimized.

folks who say there are absolutely no problems in Madrid are simply doing a bad disservice IMO and irresponsibly so.

You should worry in Madrid and if you do and take proper precautions yes you will probably not be victimized.

I understand where folks who live in Madrid get upset when outsiders are Cassandras but my information is reliable to me and Madrid poses many more problems of street crime than most European cities - even muggings unheard of practically outside of Spain.

<And don't worry so much about not looking like a Spaniard. Pick-pockets target EVERYONE, Spaniards and tourists alike>

pickpockets and muggers target tourists more I think than locals - locals are much more likely to be able to pursue claims than tourists who may have to be on the next train or plane out of town and I bet locals do not flash the family jewels around or intice thieves by having expensive cameras, watches, etc.

I was two years ago in a Madrid tourist office where a clerk simply told an American tourist who was wearing some kind of gold chain around her neck to absolutely do not wear that here - why did she tell her that MadridMan - the clerk went onto say there were many pickpockets and thieves working the Plaza Mayor area. I guess she was just misinformed and being a careless Cassandra like me>

No she was not - be very prudent in Madrid despite what some locals may say when they say there is no reason to take any precautions at all.

@PalenQ. You seem to have categorised people into two groups: foreign tourists and "locals".

Thee is a third, and very significant, group of visitors to Madrid. Spanish tourists.

Ok fair enough - I think street criminals target those who they think are 1 - those exhibiting that they probably have the most to steal - fancy clothes, wearing jewels, gold chains, etc and 2- those they think the easiest marks. Yes makes no difference whether they are clueless Yanks of clueless Spaniards or clueless Catalonians or clueless Basques, etc.

Locals are also not dragging suitcases full of stuff thru the streets very much, looking at city maps, etc.

Let me first state that I visit friends in Madrid every year. Years ago, in Madrid on a Sunday morning. I was on my way to take the bus to Segovia near Principe Pio. When I turned the corner I saw what I thought were kids having a scuffle on the ground.It turned out that 3 men had jumped a man and were robbing him.Suddenly, the taxi drivers came running up to help the man and some even went after the muggers-all in vain.They took everything he had of value and one taxi driver kindly offered him a ride.That was about 12 years ago. When I told my friends, they were in disbelief! Nowadays they share stories when I visit and are very sad and embarassed..
About 6 years ago,I saw an elderly lady knocked to the ground and people did NOTHING.This was on Calle Toledo near the Plaza Mayor.
4 years ago I was on bus 27 and a woman started shouting, 2 people robbed her and jumped off the bus and took off running.
2 years ago,I had to take a student to the US Embassy because her passport was stolen. We met a young Asian woman who had been badly beaten up in a doorway on Calle Arenal -she was just checking in to her pension.They took everything and her dad was sending her money to buy a ticket to come home the next day.
Last year,I did notice more police around,even on horseback.I consider myself very fortunate and am always aware of my surroundings.My friends finally believe that crime has escalated and everyone is nowadays a potential victim.I get upset when people call it petty crimes,pickpockets.No, it's not!Muggings are scary as all ****
This year I'm staying mostly in Galicia where I feel more relaxed and am pretty much done with Madrid and Barcelona

lovely2c appears to be the typical American, paranoid. If anything, it's far safer walking the streets of Madrid than Seattle, and most other Northern American cities.

Unfortunately we have been near and around many incidents when we travel. As noted we have spent considerable time in Spain and when my wife shies away form going to some place where there is violence or crime, I point out that ETA, between 1968-2002, killed over 800 people. Their violence included that blowing up of a restaurant we ate in a couple of times in Pamplona a few weeks after we left.

We ate in Goldenberg's in the Marais a few weeks before it was machine gunned by terroists.

We drove into a riot in Miami

While staying at lodge in Belize, there were horse rustlers in the middle of the night.

Pope John Paul I died when we were in Venice, his home town.

The IRA bombed London Tower just before a visit.

The night before we left for one of our trips to Guatemala the State Dept. issued a warning not to go. The military was spreading rumors that American and European women were stealing children for body parts.

There were some other incidents as well.

And in the town where I was born and live, I was three blocks from the Trade Center, saw the second plane hit, our building was enveloped by smoke and ashes twice and breathed in the remains of humans for months as the fire smoldered.

I know, I know, no one wants to travel with me, but that is good.

But if you want to live your life in fear, then you will miss a great deal. But if you want to see the world, take reasonable precautions, then you can see what all those wondrous things the fearful will not.

Adu - where are you planning to go next so i can make sure I won't be there?

Coming late to this, but i would say the only ones to certainly rob tourist are the banks with commission fees and poor exchange rates when you use your card(s)

ribeirasacra-that's a completey different story!
After witnessing these crimes and seeing all the people waiting to report them at the Huertas poolice station, I can't make light of it.

Adu - where are you planning to go next so i can make sure I won't be there?
____
Cornwall.