London J: Thames Trivia

7.2 million people get their drinking water from the Thames - a drop of rain falling into the source of the river will have passed thru the bodies of 8 people before it reaches the sea!

IOW- the water you're drinking in London will have been drunk AND eliminated by seven people before you!

That last bit I had heard before.

Fascinating info. I wonder how long it takes a drop of water to get to the ocean? In Switzerland we were told it takes a drop of water 17 years to get from one end of Lac Leman to the other; I wonder if that included the passage through humans, dogs, cats, wild animals, etc.

It's astonishing how little we know for certain about the pre-Roman history of the Thames Valley. We don't know whether the Romans invented the word Thames, for example, or adapted it from the Celtic people who'd been living in England before the Italian imperialists stole our country.

But one thing that IS certain is that there weren't any Hindu priests christening the river in their sacred language 4,000 years ago.

The word Thames may be of Latin, or or Celtic, origin: damn pre-Roman Britons didn't leave any written remains. But no reputable philologist would believe for a nanosecond that Latin or the Celtic languages are derived from Sanskrit, Hindus' sacred language
- though practically all agree that Latin, Sanskrit and the Celtic languages have a common origin.

However, there are many triumphalist - and badly educated - Indians posting theories about Sanskrit primacy on the Web. So anyone trotting out nonsense about pre-Tudor English words (like 'Thames') being of Sanskrit origin is committing the most unEnglish of mistakes: gullible acceptance of nationalist myth making.

There are words in English of Sanskrit origin. All postdate our unjustifiable intrusion into India's affairs: none predate Italy's equally reprehensible intrusion into ours.

What have the Romans done for us, eh?

But seriously, those who are interested in the river and what it's done for us would be interested in the Museum in Docklands:

www.museumindocklands.org.uk

The Thames begins in the Cotswold Hills and, at 344 km long, is Britain's second longest river.>>>>>>>
Bob; are you trying to get yourself lynched? The Thames is the second longest river in the British Isles. The longest is the Shannon, which is in Ireland. Irish people have quite fixed opinions on being referred to as British. Really quite fixed opinions indeed.

The Thames is the third-longest river in the British Isles, and the second-longest in Great Britain. The Severn is the longest in Great Britain, but is partly in Wales. The Thames is the longest river which is wholly in England.

As usual, the devil is in the details.

<The Thames begins in the Cotswold Hills and, at 344 km long, is Britain's second longest river.
Bob; are you trying to get yourself lynched? The Thames is the second longest river in the British Isles. The longest is the Shannon, which is in Ireland. Irish people have quite fixed opinions on being referred to as British. Really quite fixed opinions indeed.>


"The Thames is the second longest river in Britain" - you can lynch me but you really want to lynch the Brits who were paid to research and write this VERBARTIM as i copied it!

The above passage was written in the brochure i have entitled Below the Thames, a part of the Walk This Way A Young Person's Guide - the brochure was "researched and published by South Bank Employers Group (SBEG) on behalf of Cross River Partnership (CRP) and supported by several Thames-side Councils.

So i don't know why after presumably volumnous research Brits used that term - and why the same brochure said that the Sanskrit origin of the Thames was a possible - i guess an example of shoddy British education??

Tsk Tsk tsk... even Britains don't seem to know the meaning of the word Britain!

Who or what are "Britains" ? People from Britain are Britons.
There is a mass of incorrect information on the internet. Don't assume that anything displayed on your computer screen is reliable, accurate or up to date.

THE LOST RIVERS
Four of the largest rivers, now sewerized in culverts, that flow into the Thames are: Effra, Fleet, Neckinger and Walbrook.

Effra - flows into the Thames by the Vauxhall Bridge, coming from the South Bank and running under Brixton Road. The river was once used by the Vikings to attack London Bridge in 1016 AD.

Fleet-

So is everybody agreed that the pamphlet is correct? The Thames is the second longest river in Britain. There was no reason to even mention the Shannon.
Now I know a farmer near Seven Springs in Gloucestershire who insists it's there and not Thames Head at Kemble where the Thames has it's source, making it just slightly longer than the Severn!!

I don't really know any farmers, Gloucestershire or otherwise. Just opening up another debate on river lengths (albeit an old one amongst Cotswold folk).

THE LOST RIVERS

Fleet - This river divided Westminster from the City and folks used a bridge near Holborn to go between the 2 boroughs. In medieval days the abbatoirs and tanneries along the river caused it to often sport a red hue. The river was completely covered between 1732 and 1765 and, as the story goes, once when a pig was lost a rumor spread that a whole family of sewer-dwelling swine inhabited the underground river.

The Fleet poured its detritus today into the Thames at Blackfriars Bridge.

LOST RIVERS - WALBROOK
The Walbrook River runs under the City of London and empties into the Thames under Cannon Street Station. Navigable in Roman times, the Romans built a port at the furthest place boats could reach - remains of which were recently found under Queen Victoria Street.

I thought the Thames rose at Cirencester. But I was wrong aboput the severn so who knows?

Slightly off topic, but interesting.

I have the memoires of an ancestor living in the City at the end of the 18th century.
"Tired of the hussle and bussle of London, I moved to Westminster" He used to walk between the two, carrying his musket to bag pheasants on the way.

LOST RIVERS: NECKINGER

Sounding like something out of Germany, the Neckinger River today pours its effluent into the Thames from just downstream from Tower Bridge, on the Thames' South Bank near Rotherhithe.

'Named after the Neckinger Wharf, where Thames pirates were hanged with a rope called the Devil's Neckcloth or Devil's Neckinger. the river begins near the Imperial War Museum and was once powered Southwark's many water mills to produce everything from rope to gunpowder.'

THAMES: LONDON'S SEWER
"The story of the Thames runs deeper than its surface. Beneath the river are miles of sewers and tunnels built during Victorian days to cure the city of The Great Stink."

"Before then all of London's sewers flushed into the Thames-causing a great stench but the also carrying diseases like cholera and typhoid. After a cholera epidemic killed over 10,000 locals in 1853 the new sewer system was urgently planned.'

Thanks, PalenqueBob and all. I can feel a drop of that water swimming around in myself right now.

Heavens Turmergatroids - just think it could well have passed thru Flanneruk in the Cotswolds and then BTike in Maidenhead and several Londoners before it reached you - pause to think

And, don't mistake my humour, these are two of my very favoite Fodorites.

No, I like that idea.

Excedpt for the cholera part, of course.

Well, we drink mostly Evian so Thames water is more like to have passed through our dog than me

The bloke who built the sewer is Peter Bazalgette. His great granson is the owner of Bazal TV - the people who make big brother. So the ancestor pumped sh*t away from our homes and the current one pumps sh*t into our homes.

The circle of life. Innit.

Sir Joseph. Peter is the descendant.

There's a new book out, "The Ghost Map" by Steven Johnson, about the 1854 cholera epidemic and the discovery of contaminated water as the cause of the outbreak. It's gotten good reviews on Amazon.com, but I haven't read it yet.
Annette

Audere,

Thank you for the guffaw you elicited from me at my desk just now with the comment about what the ancestors and contemporaries were/are pumping into and out of your homes. Too funny !

"Heavens Turmergatroids"

So familiar but can't place the quote.....TV cartoon with a ghost?

Not sure if it's what you are thinking of but "Heavens to Murgatroyd" was the catchphrase of the cartoon cat Snagglepuss I think.

Heavens Turmergatroids Batman!

at least i thinkit's Batman - maybe jimmy in old Superman TV shows.

Yes, A est F (by the way congrats on Spurs dominating 1-0 win in Germany!) the pamphlet says it was Joseph Bazalgette who engineered the new sewers.

"When Bazalgette's work was finished he had used 318 million bricks to build 130 km of sewers and dug up 2.5 cubic metres of earth"

"Two of these 'interceptor' sewers run along each bank of the Thames - the Victoria Embankment on the north side and the Albert Embankment of the south.

The Victoria Embankment contains not only an interceptor sewer, but a service tunnel for gas, electricity and water and the District and Circle tube railway lines.

The Albert Embankment acts as a barrier to the continual flooding of Lambeth, which was originally marshlands."

Enough of this sewer sludge?

I've been in that sewer (we lead a glamorous life in local government you know). It's a terrific feat of victorian engineering.

Mind you every time we get a down pour it floods my office with smelly water.

THAMES WILDLIFE
"Birds"
The tidal Thames brings many coastal birds to central London, such as gulls, guillemots, fulmar and cormorants and heron, who feed on small fish, an indication that the water is indeed quite clean"
"Fish"
Over 100 species of fish can be found in the Thames - such as sea bass, flounder and salmon.

So it seems during your London sojourn you can bird watch as well - bring the binoculars!

Yes, indeed. I live by the river, and we see cormorants and heron every day, as well as various sorts of seagulls that have been here most of my life. You can pay to visit the London Wetlands centre (converted from old reservoirs) - www.wwt.org.uk; or you can take a stroll along the Thames path from Greenwich around the Dome where they've managed the embankment to create a more bird-friendly environment. I've seen a good dozen heron and plenty more cormorant there at low tide.

And there's the old bombing range at Rainham Marshes which has just opened as a bird sanctuary:

http://www.rspb.org.uk/reserves/guide/r/rainhammarshes/index.asp

FOREIGN INVADERS
"Chinese Mitten Crabs are so named because of the hairs on the ends of their claws. They are not native to the Thames but were accidentally introduced in the last century in water ballasts of cargo ships returning from China.

Welcome to the multi-national cosmopolitan greater London area.

THAMES BRIDGES
Though the most famous of the historic Thames bridges, London Bridge, at least famous in name, sits in the desert in California i believe or Arizona, a part of The Thames mystique to me are the remaining spans over the river and their histories and all the history they have witnessed. (Ironically the 'new' replacement London Bridge is no doubt the least impressive of them all!)

(Again paraphrasing the leaflet Walk This Way, A Young Person's Guide "Above the Thames".)

Starting from upriver and working down with the flow...

WESTMINSTER BRIDGE
Opened in 1750, this was the first span between Westminster and the South Bank. The 'new' replacement bridge opened in 1862 was designed to replicate the architecture of the Houses of Parliament...and the bridge is painted green, the same color as the benches in the House of Commons.

Big Ben stands near the Westminster end of the bridge - at least what most tourists call Big Ben - the hulking clock tower of Parliament even though Big Ben properly only refers to the 13.8 ton bell in the tower that booms out periodically to announce the time - the bell it says was probably named after the 'bulky Commissioner of Works, Sir Benjamin Hall.'

Though the most famous of the historic Thames bridges, London Bridge, at least famous in name, sits in the desert in California i believe or Arizona,>>>>

Sort of. There have been many london bridges, going back to rooman times. The one in America is a modern one.

http://www.roadtripamerica.com/places/havasu.htm

The London Bridge of "london bridge is falling down" fame is probably the most famous.

Incidentally if you put the phrase "london bridge" into google images you get millions of pictures of Tower Bridge. That's a common mistake.

PalenqueBob - In Stephen Smith's book "Underground London" (which I have just finished) he writes thus:
"The Thames is still so dominant in the image of London, the river of life in the title sequence of the nation's favourite soap opera about cockney types, that we tend to forget that it is really a city of many rivers. Virile Father Thames had progeny:
Stamford Brook, the Wandle, Counter's Creek, the Falcon, the Westbourne, the Tyburn, the Effra, the Fleet, the Walbrook, Neckinger and the Earl's Sluice, the Peck and the Ravensbourne.
These tributaries were well known to Londoners until just a few generations ago".
It's a great read and delves into much beneath the surface of London that has never crossed a visitors mind.
From lost rivers and what has happened to them, to the sewers and disused tube stations, Churchill's Wartime Bunker and the Roman artefacts which are being thrown onto the muddy shore of the Thames to this very day when the tide goes out.

He may be an industrious historian, but his geography's a bit weak. All those other rivers aren't "progeny": as tributaries they're - well, if not parents, then generous friends and godparents.

tod- thanx a whole lot for the book reference - i'll try to get one.

MORE ON THAMES BRIDGES

GOLDEN JUBILEE BRIDGES
Moving downstream from Westminster Bridge, passing the BRITISH AIRWAYS LONDON EYE, a huge observation wheel that takes you up to 135 metres high for stupendous views for up to 40 kilometres over greater London.
All pieces for the Eye were floated up the Thames and then assembled by a massive floating crane - the first attempt to upright the Eye flopped as the Big Wheel could not be raised until more ammunition was brought in.

A few years ago the new GOLDEN JUBILEE BRIDGES were constructed to facilitate foot traffic between the ever-increasingly popular South Bank and the Charing Cross/Trafalgar Square area.

200 years ago there was a food market on the Thames north bank here and the market was named after the Hungerford clan, whose mansion once stood there. The 1st Hungerford Bridge was simply a foot crossing but when the railways came into London and Charing X station was opened the bridge became a rail span as it still is and must be one of the busiest rail bridges in the world as trains trundle over it every few minutes. there was also a narrow foot bridge next to the busy rail lines, but with the Golden Jubilee Bridges, new pedestrian spans were added to each side on the old rail bridge. From the middle of the bridges you get a spiffy view over the Thames and London skyline.

If you like the underground london book you'll probably like this site:

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites.shtml

a-est-f: Thanks for the wonderful sight - i started on the Kingsway Tram Tunnel - lots of good stuff here. Again thanks. Good luck vs Cardiff.

BACK TO THAMES BRIDGES

WATERLOO BRIDGE
This span dates from 1811 as the Strand Bridge and it gained its current name in 1817 to commemorate the Battle of Waterloo.

BLACKFRIARS BRIDGE
This bridge dates from the mid 1800s and replaced a Blackfriars Bridge first built in 1769, and named after the Black Friar monks (in turn named after the black robes they wore) who lived on the north side of the bridge. Drawings of the earlier bridge can be seen on the walls of the bridge's south underpass on the Thames footpath.

The present Waterloo Bridge dates from the 1940s. There was the mother of all heritage/preservation rows about the previous 19th century bridge; but nowadays I suspect most people would feel the same about the present one. Plus ça change.....

Patrick - thanks for Waterloo clarification - having crossed that bridge many times it sure looks like some post-war creation.

MOVING DOWNSTREAM - MILLENNIUM BRIDGE

This new bridge, built to commemorate the new millennium ('No sh.. Sherlock!')
was a bit controversial when planned and rather a disaster when opened as it had to be closed practically immediately due to safety concerns on this pedestrian span.

First the bridge had to be designed so as not to obscure the view across the bridge to St Paul's Cathedral yet high enough for ships to pass under it. the solution- make a suspension bridge where the support cables run along the sides of the bridge rather than above it. Designed by a world-famous pre-eminent architect whose name escapes me, the bridge was meant to wobble a bit when folks crossed it - but when opened it wobbled so much that pedestrians became afraid it was collapsing - so it was closed and special shock absorbers installed to lessen the wobble. It still moves a bit when crossing it. The architect was steadfast that nothing was structurally wrong with the span but that it was only a perception that it was too shakey.

Anyway, this slender span now provides a smashing way to go between the Tate Modern Art Extravaganza and Saint Paul's Cathedral and the view towards St Paul's is stunning and the bridge helped reinvigorate a previously shabby area between St Paul's and the Thames.

One of the few occasions when I can say "I was there": the opening of the Millennium Bridge. It was the ultimate workout - an extremely windy day and the climax of a sponsored walk for a children's charity across all the Thames bridges, to mark the opening day. So there were tens of thousands of people, including a high proportion of children, on and trying to get on the bridge (there was a queue of about 20-30 minutes to get on). It struck me at the time that if you have a suspension bridge whose cables run parallel, it's likely to be a bit wobbly (I'm no engineer, it just seemed intuitive that would happen). But the wobbles didn't strike me as unsafe, and I didn't see anyone looking frightened. It just meant everyone stopped to maintain their balance, and the effect was to reinforce the wobble: a bit of behavioural impact that engineers hadn't anticipated.

The Charing Cross railway bridge replaced the Hungerford suspension bridge. You can still see that two of the piers of the Charing Cross bridge are brick and these supported the suspension bridge. The chains from this bridge were used for Brunel's Clifton bridge across the Avon Gorge in Bristol. This beautiful monument to Brunel's genius was still unfinished when he died because the money had run out, but was completed later.

The Wobbly Bridge was designed by Ove Arup and partners, probably the biggest and best consulting engineers in the world, Sydney Opera House, Nat West Tower etc...Until then...

They are doing the olympic stadium too........

I'm enjoying the flow of this.
We really like the Millenium Bridge, wish it wobbled just a bit more.

stokebailey- indeed, i was disappointed that it didn't wobble a bit more myself.

SOUTHWARK BRIDGE
One of the Thames less herladed bridges, this span is an arch bridge linking Southwark and the City. The current bridge opened in 1921, replacing a previous bridge dating from 1819, and weirdly is owned and maintained by Bridge House Estates, a charitable trust overseen by the Corporation of London. It's nicknamed the "car park bridge" because group-tour bus drivers often use it to stable their vehicles. Under the bridge on the Southwark side are some old steps, which, formerly used by Thames watermen to moor their boats and wait for customers remain because the bridge was built into them.
The next downstream is Cannon Street Railway Bridge.

CANNON STREET RAILWAY BRIDGE
'Flowing' downstream from Southwark Bridge, the next span over the Thames is the Cannon Street Railway Bridge, which carries only trains over the river to Cannon Street station on the north bank. Once named the Alexandra Bridge after Alexandra of Denmark who was the wife of the future King Edward VII i haven't found out why the name was changed??
The bridge, built for the South Eastern Railway, opened in 1866. Its original form entailed five spans standing on cast-iron Doric pillars, but was subsequently widened between 1886–9 and extensively renovated between 1979–82, which sadly resulted in many of its ornamental features being removed and the structure taking on a rather bleak pedestrian appearance.
Folks on the Thameslink trains that incessantly rattle across the bridge en route to Kings Cross get a nice view of the Thames from the middle of the span.

NEXT BRIDGE - LONDON BRIDGE -

It was the scene of the Marchioness disaster in 1989.

THE MARCHIONESS DISASTER OF 1989
Before flowing down to London Bridge, the Thames, right under the Cannon Street Railway Bridge, was the scene of the infamous Marchioness Disaster of 20 August 1989, when the pleasure boat Marchioness sank after being rammed by a dredging boat. 51 of the 132 passengers on the Marchioness for a private birthday party drowned.

One of the dead was Lawrence Dallaligio's sister fact fans.

LONDON BRIDGE
This crossing is the oldest of all Thames bridges and was historically the most important. A millennium ago King Olaf and his Viking marauders attacked London and much of the fighting took place on the bridge, with the Vikings destroying much of the bridge and drowning the defenders - thus giving rise to the famous nursery rhyme "London Bridge is Falling Down"

The bridge has been rebuilt many times, such as after 1968 when a rich American was duped into buying what he allegedly thought was Tower Bridge just downstream and moved it stone by stone to the desert in Arizona for his Lake Havasu (sp?) development, where it remains. But it was just a rather ordinary modern bridge and not the grandiose one he thought. Today's new London Bridge, to me, is one of the less spectacular on the Thames - a utilitarian and super busy bridge.

Let's name a different bridge after Alexandra, a lovely woman and surely one of those wives the term "long-suffering" was invented for. How about the graceful Millenium, now that the 2000 fad has passed?

Nobody calls the millenium bridge "The Milllenium Bridge", it is universally known as "The Wobbly Bridge".

Alexandra has Alexandra Palace (and various hospitals, I believe - and do the QA nurses still exist?). Ally Pally may be a bit hulking to be representative of her in life, but it's hard to overlook.

London denizens: The new London City Hall sits on the South Bank between London and Tower bridges - i recently read about some nicknames, some rather bawdy i believe, that have been applied to the unique structure. These names have slipped my aging mind - help me recall - what do locals call this thing. a est f - thanks for the Wobbly Bridge clarification!

I've only heard it referred to as the headlamp - cos it looks like one.

There was a fashion for calling it the Glass Testicle.

I think of the Swiss Re building (which they call the Gherkin) as the Crystal Suppository.

That's often callled St Mary's dildo.

TOWER BRIDGE
I think this is the last bridge over The Thames as from here tunnels are used in order not to hinder shipping or erect monstrously high bridges.

Anyway this is one of the world's most famously unqiue and remarkably looking bridges. It's said to be the bridge the rich Yank thought he was buying when he was bamboozled into buying London Bridge to ship to Arizona.

Tower Bridge has stood over the Thames since 1894 and along with the Parliament Buildings, including its Clock Tower (often inaccurately called Big Ben, which only applies to the gargantuan bell in it), The Eye Over London big wheel and the Dome of St Paul's Cathedral is an enduring symbol of London.
Tower Bridge is a lift bridge whose span can be raised to let tall ships thru - walkways on top are not lifted so pedestrians, with the help of a lift, can always cross.

This is a bridge you can visit: At the Tower Bridge Exhibition you can enjoy fab views from the high-level Walkways and learn about the history of the Bridge and how it was built. You can then visit the Victorian Engine Rooms, home to the original steam engines that used to power the Bridge lifts.