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Lake Como - Luzern - Germany (need help) - Amsterdam

Lake Como - Luzern - Germany (need help) - Amsterdam

Old Dec 30th, 2016, 10:33 AM
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Lake Como - Luzern - Germany (need help) - Amsterdam

My wife and I (early 30's) are planning on our first big Europe trip to celebrate our 8th anniversary and celebrate my completion of professional training in July 2017. It will be one of the only times we will ever have (with my job) to take up to 3 weeks off. It will be possible in the future to do 10-14 day trips to Europe, etc but probably no vacations longer than 2 weeks in the future so we want to go all out. Tentatively planning on 20 days (have days picked out to fly out from US and come back). Planning on primarily AirBB since they have the benefit of kitchens so we can cook occasional meals and not get OD'd on eating out all the time (i.e. breakfast). Planning on travel via train for the most part, open to local flight(s), will be each bringing one large backpack only to make traveling easier.

Need assistance with where to go in Germany (see below) - possibly 2-3 main places to visit as we dont want to have to change places we are staying over and over. Would be fun to have a home base at these locations then take day trips.

Also need assistance in best way to do train tickets since we will travel so much via train. Not sure which routes we should buy the day of (without reservations) vs saver train tickets to cover the long travel days. Also open to the idea of night trains to skip a hotel/airBB and not burn a day.

Day 1 - Midwest, United States to Milan, Italy

Day 2 - Land in Milan, Train to Lake Como (already have 5 night stay booked in Varenna...looks awesome!)

Day 2-7 - Varenna (Lake Como), Italy (catch up on jet lag, rent a boat for a day, visit nearby villages, cooking class, lounge about, etc)

Day 7 - Train from Varenna through Swiss Alps to Luzern

Day 7- 10 - 3 days / 4 nights in Luzern as base camp to explore nearby mountains. Would probably do the 3 day swiss Tell-Pass (is that correct?) to cover all the local mountains routes via boats, cogwheel, trains, etc. Would likely visit Mt Piltaus, Rigi, etc...Would visit swiss transport museum if rainy day. I am still debating 3-4 full days in Luzern but sounds like it is so expensive for basic things like food so may be better to do 3 days especially as I have heard Germany is just as great but less expensive.

Need help with the rest of the trip...plan would be to train from Luzern to Germany and end up in Amsterdam for the final 3ish days then fly out from Amsterdam (we want to visit there and it will be a bit less to fly home from Amsterdam vs the main Germany airports). Heard Bacharach is beautiful. My wife and I are primarily interested in beautiful scenery, easy hikes/walking around, great food/cocktails/drink and enjoying some highlights of Germany and easy walkable towns/villages. We want to see a bit but not get too fatigued from traveling too much.

We also are interested in Belgium (Antwerp, Bruges, etc and I had originally though of flying from Zurich to Belgium then on to Amsterdam but a lot of friends have said that Germany is beautiful, wonderful and had places not to miss). Open to your thoughts/ideas....

Day 10 - Train from Luzern to ??, Germany

Day 11 -

Day 12 -

Day 13 -

Day 14 -

Day 15 -

Day 16 -

Day 17 - Train to Amsterdam

Day 18 - Amsterdam

Day 19 - Amsterdam

Day 20 - Fly from Amsterdam to US

Thanks for your time and help!!
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Old Dec 30th, 2016, 10:44 AM
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Train schedules here:

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?

Germany to Amsterdam check flights on skyscanner.com.
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Old Dec 30th, 2016, 11:58 AM
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for lots of good train info and where to go by train in Germany check www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.seat61.com.

Germany options -

Lucerne via Zurich to Munich

3-4 days can do day trips to say Neuschwanstein Castle - 1/2 day to Dachau; or just over an hour to Salzburg

Move onto the Rhine/Mosel area - trains and boats go everywhere

5-6 days

Take train to Amsterdam - stopping for a few hours in Cologne to see the world-famous Gothic cathedral smack dab right by the main train station -put bags in station luggage storage.

You may want to look at a German Twin Railpass and for Switzerland the Swiss Transfer Ticket +1/2 off Half-Fare Card as being cheaper and giving more benefits to fit you overall Swiss travels.
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Old Dec 30th, 2016, 12:13 PM
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"...we dont want to have to change places we are staying over and over. Would be fun to have a home base at these locations then take day trips."

So... 7 nights in Germany, roughly on a trajectory in the direction of A'dam, in order to keep the travel hours to a minimum...

Bacharach won't disappoint. Stay thereabouts for 3-4 nights to allow time for short train outings to tour some nearby castles and old-world towns, to take a river cruise, and to enjoy a hike along the Rhine Castle Trail.

http://www.romantic-germany.info/index.php?id=2942
http://www.marksburg.de/en/
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1066

It would take close to 6 hours by train to reach Bacharach from Luzern (and nearly 6 more from Bacharach to A'dam.)

You could split that first travel leg from Luzern by stopping over for a few nights in Freiburg, an attractive university city near the Black Forest. Do outings into the southern Black Forest by train along the Höllental route to Hinterzarten or Titisee (scenic hiking areas) or to Colmar FR.

Alternatively, stay in Gengenbach, a nice base town for train travelers nearer the central Black Forest. From there do short outings along the scenic Black Forest Railway to places like Gutach, or west to Strasbourg FR.

Gengenbach, Wine Fest: http://www.bo.de/sites/default/files...dsc_0913_1.jpg
Black Forest Railway and towns: https://www.black-forest-travel.com/...t-railway.html

"Also need assistance in best way to do train tickets..."

A stay in Gengenbach would mean FREE train outings throughout your stay there because of the KONUS card program:

http://www.dreisamtal.de/en/service/konus.php?lang=en

Let's get into further ticket details once you have committed to an itinerary.
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Old Dec 30th, 2016, 12:25 PM
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I see Palenque has suggested Cologne, which indeed would be an easy stopover for several hours en route from Bacharach to Amsterdam. There are some good museums there, including a Nazi Documentation center, and of course the Cathedral, right next to the station.

"We want to see a bit but not get too fatigued from traveling too much..."

Palenque has also suggested Munich, Salzburg, and Neuschwanstein Castle (which is a more modern palace with a faux old-castle facade.) You can check the train travel times for these destinations at the German Railways site, but I think you'd be looking at many, many more train travel hours than if you were to stay on a more direct routing toward Amsterdam (like Freiburg-Gengenbach-Bacharach-Cologne-A'dam.)
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Old Dec 30th, 2016, 12:59 PM
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Yes only options to consider -I think that the most direct rail route Lucerne to Germany goes Zurich-Stuttgart- from where you could do Heidelberg then the lovely Rhine/Mosel area Fuss describes so well.

but if looking for easy or harder hikes the Black Forest area is great.

BTW in Switzerland I'd suggest maybe doing the Jungfrau Region to fulfill your awesome Alpine expectations which you will not get in Lucerne area as a whole anyway.

Could do Como-Milan-Spiez-Interlaken then up into a mountain village like Grindelwald or Wengen -if into nature and hiking of all types this is it:

https://www.google.com/search?q=jung...HSX4DV8QsAQIGQ
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Old Dec 30th, 2016, 08:54 PM
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Lake Como - Luzern - Germany (need help) - Amsterdam
Posted by: 3elevun on Dec 30, 16 at 2:33pm


Don't bit off more than you can chew. You need a map of Europe and a good guide book. I suggest a Michelin Map and the Lonely Planet "Europe on a Shoestring" guidebook for starters. For an illustrated introduction to the trains of Europe see http://www.enjoy-europe.com/hte/chap17/rail.htm.

For Amsterdam which I know fairly well, I suggest that you do some hanging out around the Spui. Find a room on one of the canals just west of there. Take a day trip to Haarlem for a change of air.
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Old Dec 31st, 2016, 07:07 AM
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Thanks all for the the advice!

Here is my updated plan:

Day 1 - Midwest, United States to Milan, Italy

Day 2 - Land in Milan, Train to Lake Como (already have 5 night stay booked in Varenna...looks awesome!)

Day 2-7 - Varenna (Lake Como), Italy (catch up on jet lag, rent a boat for a day, visit nearby villages, cooking class, lounge about, etc)

Day 7 - Train from Varenna through Swiss Alps to Luzern

Day 7- 10 - 3 days / 4 nights in Luzern as base camp to explore nearby mountains. Would probably do the 3 day swiss Tell-Pass (is that correct?) to cover all the local mountains routes via boats, cogwheel, trains, etc. Would likely visit Mt Piltaus, Rigi, etc...Would visit swiss transport museum if rainy day.

Day 11 - Train from Luzern to Freiburg, Germany

Day 12 - Freiburg, Germany - found a potential local guide (Black Forest Tours via Simone) which looks great as she makes a customized 1-2 day tour plan and this would make it so I dont have to personally plan these days. Found a an inexpensive airBB for in city centre.

Day 13 - Freiburg, Germany

Day 14 - Freiburg, Germany train to Bacharach, Germany (2 full days, 3 nights - is that enough?). Found an inexpensive AirBB that also includes bike rentals (is biking around Bacharach fun in July? Too hot?)

Day 15 - Bacharach, Germany (train outings to tour some nearby castles and old-world towns, to take a river cruise, and to enjoy a hike along the Rhine Castle Trail as suggested) - any specifics for you recommend? I read reviews that some of the river cruises can be all day and therefore wayyyy too long. We would be staying at someone's home for the AirBB so I am sure they can also help us with our plans while we would be there.

Day 16 - Bacharach, Germany

Day 17 - Bacharach, Germany to Amsterdam (probably leave early so we can make a day stop in Cologne as was suggested by Fussgaenger). Bacharach to Cologne is about 2 hours and Cologne to Amsterdam is about 3 hours. Do you think this day would be too exhausting? It would mean we have down time before and after cologne so maybe not too bad.

Day 18 - Amsterdam

Day 19 - Amsterdam

Day 20 - Amsterdam (this would be a Sunday so not sure if places will be open)

Day 21 - Fly from Amsterdam to US


Let me know critiques of the plan. Do you think two full days in each Freiburg and Bacharach is enough or should an extra day be spent at one of those places?

Let me know what you think about trains...I have read seat61.com which will be helpful in planning legs from Varenna Lake Como to Luzern.

Reagrding trains - We would have three main legs for Germany (Luzern to Freiburg, Freiburg to Bacharach, Bacharach to Cologne + Cologne to Amsterdam (on the same day likely) plus other shorts trips while in Bacharach....so would the twin pass make sense? The 3 day/1 month for German Twin pass is US $331 and the 4 day/1 month is US $355).

Thanks again!
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Old Dec 31st, 2016, 09:06 AM
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German pass will not cover the Dutch portion of the Cologne-Amsterdam train - not sure the German Pass will be a good deal.

Again check Swiss Transfer Ticket for Swiss portion- how much is the William Tell Pass? 3 days - 210 CHF I read.

So about $200 p.p.

Swiss Transfer Ticket gives you a trip from any border point - Chiasso near Como to Lucerne and then gives you a ticket to any border point or train station - Basel in your case and with it you can buy a 50% off Half-Off Pass that gives you in between your inward and outward journeys 50% off everything that moves in Switzerland. It may give you more for less than buying tickets to and from where the Tell Pass coverage begins. Not sure on sale in Switzerland - did not used to be but may be now. http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/id3.html for U.S. prices -check www.sbb.ch for possible sale in Switzerland. Tell pass is only sold locally.
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Old Dec 31st, 2016, 09:58 AM
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Your trip looks good to me. You could use an extra day in both the Black Forest and on the Rhine, but such are itineraries.

The GRP would work only for Freiburg-Bacharach.

I'd advise saver fare tickets for the 3 legs from DB.

https://www.bahn.com/en/view/offers/...ver-fare.shtml

Book ASAP up to 6 months in advance - journeys are train-specific, refundable against a fee. Lowest possible prices:

Luzern-Freiburg, €38/2
Freiburg-Bacharach, €48/2
Bacharach-A'dam, €58

You would need to SCHEDULE the stopover time in Cologne for the 3rd leg since you must pre-schedule journeys to get the saver fare. So think about how much time would be good for you there before booking.

So around €150 for two in 2nd class if you book when those tix are first available, or more if you wait. That's a deal.
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Old Dec 31st, 2016, 12:01 PM
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Not nearly enough travel for the GRP - unless you want to hop any train anytime -then might be vs fully flexible fares like the pass provides - just go to station and clamber on train.

In Rhine and Black Forest areas use either the free KONIC pass for Black forest and Lander tickets for Rhine/Mosel and surroundings.

Burg Eltz is an awesome castle on the Mosel - take trains or a boat there from Koblenz- it is one of the most famous castles in Germany- it once graced the old pre-Euro German 500 Deutsche Mark (?250) bank note's back it is so famous. Trains or boats dump you off at Moselkern - lovely walk thru forests to castle or shuttle taxis or minvans:

https://www.google.com/search?q=burg...HRuVCmgQsAQIGQ

burg Eltz is along with Marksburg on the Rhine about the only intact castles in the area-others knocked down by marauders thru the ages in this militarily vital area- the narrowest part of the Rhine- the Rhine Gorge - take the K-D boats from Bingen/Rudesheim to Koblenz (www.k-d.com) - take train from Bacharach to Bingen to catch boats- at Koblenz the boat docks are right by one of Germany's most famous places - Deutsches Eck - where the 'mother Mosel' and 'father Rhine' come together - the German Corner (Deutsches Eck) is right there - an impressive massive statue there devoted not to German Unity:

https://www.google.com/search?q=deut...HUxwAF8QsAQIHA
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Old Dec 31st, 2016, 01:09 PM
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Note: "...the free KONIC pass for Black forest..." that Palenque suggests is actually the KONUS pass... and it's impossible to get if you are overnighting in Freiburg. It's available only in certain small Black Forest towns like Gengenbach.

In addition to Burg Eltz and Marksburg castles, Rheinfels Castle ruins in St. Goar (only 10 min. by train from Bacharach) is very worthwhile. Or you could take Palenque's suggestion... train to Bingen then cruise north - but GET OFF the boat in St. Goar and see Rheinfels:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxFF80wORNQ

Because your time for the area is short I do not recommend continuing the cruise after St. Goar. Bingen-St. Goar really is the most scenic part and takes only 1.5 hours. If you stay on the boat all the way to Koblenz, you'll sort of "waste" another 2+ hours - it's less impressive, especially near Koblenz, where it gets a bit industrial. If you want to go to Koblenz after St. Goar, take the train.

Train day pass for the Rhine/Mosel region:
http://www.vrminfo.de/en/tickets/tic...-pfalz-ticket/
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Old Dec 31st, 2016, 01:19 PM
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Note: "...the free KONIC pass for Black forest..." that Palenque suggests is actually the KONUS pass... and it's impossible to get if you are overnighting in Freiburg. It's available only in certain small Black Forest towns like Gengenbach.>

Oops- I skimmed your posts above and too quickly said this- forgot they finally settled on Freiburg which has one of the neatest McDonalds restaurants I even saw in being built out of an old lovely facade with part extending over the street and tramway below:

https://www.google.com/search?q=frei...6aGF3BrjUbM%3A
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Old Dec 31st, 2016, 02:25 PM
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Thanks all.

I appreciate the advice regarding Freiburg versus Gengenbach. I think we will do Gengenbach instead to take advantage of the KONUS. I am planning on airBB for most of our stays in Europe but for Gengenbach we will find a hotel/inn in order to get the KONUS for my wife and I. A few days of free trains sound nice. Plus we can probably use the KONUS for part of the train journey from Gengenbach to Bacharach.

Will work on booking the super saver Germany train portions in the coming week.
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Old Jan 1st, 2017, 07:11 AM
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Question about Gengenbach

I realized that with my planned itinerary we would end up getting to Gengenbach from Luzern about midway Friday and then we would have two full days - Saturday and Sunday - and then train out Monday to Bacharach.

Question - Will most places have limited hours and/or be closed on the weekend? Not sure if we would need to stock up at a grocery store, etc Friday when we get into town to have stuff through the weekend especially if we do small day trips via train. Our main plan would be to train around via KONUS - do trains usually run on Sundays with decent frequency compared to other days? Just want to make sure its not bad timing to get there on the weekend (although its the middle of July when tourist season is in full swing).

Thanks!
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Old Jan 1st, 2017, 07:42 AM
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Timetables:
Milan Malpensa airport - Varenna:
MXP T 1 dp 6.13 and then every hr until 20.13, except 10.13, 14.13, 17.13; change at Milan (ar ...05/ dp ...20), journey time 2 1/4 hrs

Varenna - Lucerne by train:
Varenna dp 8.37 and then every 2 hrs until 18.37; change at Monza and Arth-Goldau (both small stations). Journey time 4 hrs.
There are more scenic itineraries too, like
Varenna - boat - Menaggio - bus - Lugano - train - Lucerne;
Varenna dp 13.24 - train - Chiavenna 14.34/14.40 - Postbus - Spluegen Pass - San Bernardino - Bellinzona 18.20/18.40 - train - Lucerne ar 20.21;
Varenna dp 13.24 - train - Chiavenna 14.34/14.40 - Postbus - Spluegen Pass - San Bernardino - Chur 17.50/18.16 - train - Lucerne ar 20.25;
Varenna - train - Tirano - Bernina Express - Chur - train - Lucerne (stop over at Pontresina and visit the numerous viewpoints and glaciers in the Bernina area);
Varenna - boat - Como - train - Saronno - Laveno - boat - Intra - Locarno - train - Lucerne;
etc. etc.

Lucerne - Gengenbach:
trains every hr, 3 hrs journey, change at Basel and Offenburg;
more scenic itinerary via Zurich - Rhine Falls - Schwarzwaldbahn, 4 1/2 hrs journey
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Old Jan 1st, 2017, 09:36 AM
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Reconsider backpacks. You are not camping out or hiking from place to place. You are not sleeping in railway stations and won't need it as a pillow to sleep on. A piece of wheeled luggage will be much easier for most of the places you are going.
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Old Jan 1st, 2017, 05:57 PM
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"I am planning on airBB for most of our stays in Europe but for Gengenbach we will find a hotel/inn in order to get the KONUS for my wife and I."

You can get an apartment, B&B, hotel - doesn't matter, the person in charge will help you get a KONUS card.

The most complete list of accommodations options for Gengenbach is here:

http://www.blackforest-tourism.com/s...abc47kbrgpgg71

Look for something within walking distance of the station.

This place w/ 2 apartments is in town:
http://www.blackforest-tourism.com/s...20070044543653

Homepage in German: http://www.urlaub-ratskanzlei.de/

Review of the same place at this trip report: http://www.bensbauernhof.com/bigtyke2013.html


"We can probably use the KONUS for part of the train journey from Gengenbach to Bacharach."

The KONUS card will indeed be valid on the day you leave G'bach, but it will get you only to Karlsruhe on the local/regional trains. So you can travel by RE (regional express) train to Karlsruhe for free, and there transfer to another RE train to Bacharach. It's a 3.5-hour trip for both legs. You'd pay around €30/2 adults for the second leg using a Rheinland-Pfalz Ticket day pass (which you can buy from a Gengenbach ticket machine that morning.) The R-P day pass is good for the rest of the day as well - so if you were to take an additional train outing after reaching Bacharach, it's already paid for.

To find train schedules for Gengenbach - Bacharach, be sure to click on "only local transport" - that will exclude the high-speed train options which are not possible with the KONUS or the R-P Ticket.

(I think you will find that the High-speed trains for this route would save you only a small amount of time if you went for the pre-purchased saver fare. I'd go with the R-P ticket so you aren't locked into an absolute schedule.)
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Old Jan 1st, 2017, 06:02 PM
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About backpacks: IMO they are immensely better than rolling suitcases if properly packed and handled. Rick Steves is sometimes a nut but his packing advice is absolutely spot on:

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-ti.../packing-smart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58HdRSTAFec
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Old Jan 2nd, 2017, 06:57 AM
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Totally agree with RS about "small and light," but RS is talking a "small" backpack, and he does a lot of walking/hiking with his groups.

The OP says they will "be each bringing one (large) backpack". Don't know exactly what they mean by large, but have seen people struggle down city streets with large backpacks and they can't see what is around them and look very uncomfortable. It seems to me that there is a carryover idea from the time when kids slept on overnight trains and met up with others spur of the moment to hike to a new place, and camped out, that backpacks are romantic and almost a requirement for first trips to Europe. A few years back, when DH was younger, he bought a beautiful backpack. He was so excited while packing. I think he secretly envisioned himself as the "backpacker on the road". He teased me for having to pull something along while he had free hands. After a longish trip to Europe, he gave the backpack away.

This OP is planning to stay 3 to 5 days in each place. He will be getting his luggage from plane to lodging, to train stations, etc. The suitcase can be small and they can do laundry during the trip.

People wearing a large backpack do not look any less touristy than people pulling a small suitcase.

Of course, in the end, it is personal comfort and preference. Just want the OP to realize that a "large" backpack may not be better than a "small" suitcase. Too large is a real problem for either.
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