Lack of diversity? Venice/Florence/Rome

Old May 6th, 2015, 03:19 PM
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Lack of diversity? Venice/Florence/Rome

I am planning to go with my family to Italy next April or May for 2 weeks... I don't have a lot of experience in travelling so from what I read the easiest would be to land by plane in Venice stay there for a few days, take the train to Florence stay there for a few days and then take the train to Rome stay for a few days and then leave by plane from Rome. I know that next year is still far away but I find it very fun to read a lot, make research, etc.

From everything that I've read, it's best to not have too many bases in too many cities, so I figure for 2 weeks I should limit things to 3 bases (Venice, Florence and Rome). Depending on the exact amount of days once the best plane deals is found, I'm thinking 3 to 4 days in Venice, 4 to 5 days in Florence and around 5 days in Rome.

I have a few questions and details:

- Hotels, B&B... How far ahead should we book? Do the best hotel disappear fast or will I find good deals in the months/weeks leading to the trip? Should I basically book everything as soon as possible?

- Train transportation... When should I buy the train tickets? Will there be places be available on the spot or should I reserve months in advance? And when I reserve, is it for a particular date? hour? etc, And is it easy to use the train between these cities with luggage or will it be packed with barely a seat available?.

- Dates to avoid... I read that during weekends the crowds are bigger... But what about transportation, should we avoid switching cities on particular days of the week? Do some things close on particular dates? Are there holidays to avoid? And for the months of April/May, what would be the best 2 week period according to you in terms of weather and less crowds? The earlier the better or for example would the end of May be similar to the beginning of April?

- I am not confortable in renting a car, is it best to stay in Florence for the Tuscany part of the trip? I am afraid that if we base ourselves in Venice/Florence/Rome, we will get tired of big cities, too many tourists, etc. Is it better to stay in a smaller town in Tuscany instead of Florence to kind of have a change of pace and add diversity, or are these 3 main Italian cities different enough?

- Do you think that day trips from Florence, Rome and Venice would give us a change of pace and diversity, or should we just sacrifice Florence for a smaller town?

- Any inexpensive hotels or B&B can you recommend for maybe 200$ per night or less, that are well situated at walking distance from the city centers and train/buses for day trips or switching cities? I am particularly attracted to hotels/b&bs that have a rooftop terrace with some nice views, that way during the day or at night, you can relax but still feel as if you are enjoying Italy as opposed to being inside a lobby or room...

Those are the first questions that come to mind, but I'm sure there will be many more... Thanks for taking the time to read...
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Old May 6th, 2015, 03:27 PM
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About trains between those three cities - a snap:

www.trenitalia.com is the site of the Trenitalia or the Italian state railways and has some neat discounted tickets. IF you book weeks in advance to get them as they are sold in limited numbers and do sell out at the limited number sold - you can always IME just show up and buy a full-fare ticket - in 1st class if not 2nd class always.

But if you want to book in stone - discounted tickets non-changeable non-refundable I believe - not sure - you can save a lot. And discountd tickets come in first class too and if I were on the trip of a lifetime I'd definitely splurge and go first class - in many ways a significantly more relaxed ride, especially for folks carrying around typically too much luggage! Seats are bigger - cars are often half full as opposed to often chock full in 2nd class, etc. and you get free drink and snack en route and an Italian newspaper I guess too if you want it!

For lots of great info on Italian trains check www.seat61.com - good info on discounted tickets; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com. And http://www.italotreno.it/IT/Pagine/default.aspx competes on those lines with Trenitalia and www.italiarail.com os a booking agent that sells tickets at about what www.trenitalia.com does others say - I have not used it.
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Old May 6th, 2015, 03:39 PM
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Tickets up to 120 days in advance using italian city names:

http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...005817f90aRCRD

I don't find a lot of difference between first and second class.

booking.com is a good site known for its reviews, asking guests for both positive and negative comments.

Happy planning!
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Old May 6th, 2015, 03:41 PM
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whfan: you said "with my family" How many people is that? Your budget is probably reasonable but it really depends on how many people.

The beginning of April and the end of May can be quite different. For me the best two weeks would probably be when I could get the best airfare, especially if I were traveling as a family.

I generally prefer the end of April. I think the last week of April and the first week of May are nice. May Day falls in there but it ought not to be a big problem.

All three of your cities are very different, so other than tourists, you won't be overwhelmed by sameness.

Sightseeing in small towns in Tuscany is tough without a car. You can get buses most easily from Siena or Florence, but bus schedules aren't made for touring. Many buses depart in the mornings for school and work schedules and return in the late afternoon and early evening.

You can hire a driver and car for a day, but it is expensive. I think if you want to see small towns in Tuscany, you might want to reconsider a car for a few days.

This is all just based on my preferences and experience. Others will surely give you different opinions.
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Old May 6th, 2015, 03:47 PM
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- Hotels, B&B... How far ahead should we book?
For me it depends on if I want to stay at a particular place. Popular places do fill months ahead, and April-May have become a popular time to travel in Italy.

- Train transportation...
You should buy in advance if you want to get discounts. If you are unconcerned about discounts, you can usually walk up on the day of travel and buy a ticket. Tickets for all trains in Italy (except the slow Regionale trains) are for a specific seat on a specific train at a specific time. This will be true for your destinations. You can buy ALL your tickets for ALL your trips at any train station.

- Dates to avoid...
Some people might avoid the Easter holidays, which vary in date from year to year. April 25 and May 1 are big holidays in Italy, so Italians may be traveling and the trains might be crowded.

- Is it better to stay in a smaller town in Tuscany instead of Florence to kind of have a change of pace and add diversity, or are these 3 main Italian cities different enough?
Better depends on your interests. I find these cities different enough from one another, and there are ways to find less crowded pursuits without actually leaving he cities proper. For example, take the local bus from central Florence to Fiesole, a town on a hillside overlooking Florence. Or you can sign up for a one-day tour to Tuscany

- Do you think that day trips from Florence, Rome and Venice would give us a change of pace and diversity, or should we just sacrifice Florence for a smaller town?
Yes

- Any inexpensive hotels or B&B can you recommend for maybe 200$ per night or less, that are well situated at walking distance from the city centers and train/buses for day trips or switching cities?
How many people in a room for your $200?
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Old May 6th, 2015, 03:49 PM
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- Do you think that day trips from Florence, Rome and Venice would give us a change of pace and diversity, or should we just sacrifice Florence for a smaller town?
Yes -- day trips will give you a change and avoid the need for a car.
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Old May 6th, 2015, 04:09 PM
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Let me say good for you for doing your research and deciding that three bases is right for two weeks! You'll have a fine trip!
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Old May 6th, 2015, 04:16 PM
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Lots of questions, but not all of them answerable.

I research and book lodging at least six months in advance, but I admit I'm a little OCD on this. I'm picky about location, don't want 'budget' but can't afford 'luxury' accommodations. Your budget is a little lower than mine, so I can't make any recommendations. Go to venere.com and/or booking.com and do some searches within your parameters.

My only comment on trains is 'pack light.' You have to carry your luggage up a couple of steep, somewhat narrow stairs to board the train. If you want/hope to put your luggage in overhead bins, you have to be able to lift your cases above shoulder height.

You can look up holidays in Italy. A few off the top of my head: Liberation Day on April 25th (same date as Feast of St. Mark in Venice). Workers' Day May 1st.

Weather predictions require a crystal ball. You can look up weather records for recent years and make an educated guess, but it will be what it will be when you get there. If the currency ratios remain as they are now (1E = $1.13), I think it will be crowded everywhere but probably not as crowded as in, say, late June or July.

You don't need or want a car if staying in Venice, Florence and Rome. There are lots of easy day-trip options to smaller towns from each city that can be done using only public transportation. Personally, I think those three cities are extremely diverse in almost every respect and skipping Florence would drop most of the Renaissance art treasures from your trip. Maybe that's OK with you, but who knows.
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Old May 6th, 2015, 04:39 PM
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Your hotel budget is perfectly doable for a couple but might be difficult if you have several kids and need 2 rooms or are looking for a family room for 4 (fairly rare). Man hotels in Italy - esp in the modest/moderate range - are fairly small and may have only one family room (for more than 2, since rooms in europe are much smaller than in the US) per hotel.

I would start reserving hotels as soon as you have your dates fixed.
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Old May 6th, 2015, 08:46 PM
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Thank you very much guys for all these replies and info.

So far, we are going to be 3, which would be myself and my parents. And maybe we will be 4 if my brother can come, or someone else in my family. So it would be 3 or 4. What kind of budget am I looking at?

The thing is, I'm very reluctant about renting apartments because there are much less reviews than hotels/b&b... Since I'm the one planning and basically organizing the whole thing, I feel that I need to pick a hotel/b&b with very good reviews and not take any chances.

It's a once in a lifetime trip and if 200$ per night is too low than I'm willing to increase it. I want to have a good vacation and hotels that are comfortable and at walking distance from the attractions. I'm not going to sacrifice quality just to save a few bucks. But of course I can't increase it by too much, so basically whatever you guys think the minimum could be and hotel suggestions if possible.

Thank you also for the trains info, I'll definitely check the sites and compare all the possible prices as soon as I buy the plane tickets and book the hotels. At least now I have an idea.

And I'm glad that Venice, Florence and Rome are different enough and that all I would need to do is do a couple of day trips for even more diversity. I didn't even know about Fiesole and it sounds like an easy day trip into the countryside. I'm glad that my plan to only have 3 bases for 2 weeks is a good choice, even though I would have loved to include the Amalfi Coast too, I don't want to make my parents too tired.
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Old May 6th, 2015, 08:49 PM
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But reading the comment that rooms for 3 or 4 adults are more rare and more expensive, and that they disappear fast, is making me a little worried... lol
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Old May 6th, 2015, 09:04 PM
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And finally, the reason why I was hoping for some kind of a rooftop terrace at the hotel is because if my parents are too tired for a day, then they can simply relax at the terrace for the evening or the afternoon while still enjoying a view of the cities... It doesn't have to all be hotels with rooftops, it would simply be a bonus if we get that even for only one of the cities. I know that my dad likes to have a cigarette here and there or a drink, and not just walk all over the city every day, so it would kind of give him a break when he needs it and kind of enjoy Italy without leaving the hotel if one day he doesn't feel like having a big walking day.
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Old May 6th, 2015, 10:16 PM
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I would like to suggest that you avoid the week before Easter as the Italians are also on vacation. We found Venice and Florence to be very crowded. On Easter weekend in Venice we could not move over the Rialto Bridge except with a slow shuffle and bumping into the hoards of people.

You are wise to book open jaw flights to avoid backtracking. If you could start in Rome and end in Venice then you will have the pure pleasure of arriving the S. Lucia train station in Venice (rather than at the airport) and emerging from the train station to see the beautiful Grand Canal right before you. Many of us have said that was a most memorable experience. Then splurge and hop a water taxi to your hotel.

You are also correct to seek to see some countryside and small villages. Since you do not wish to rent a car, day trips from Florence will be the best way to see some of the smaller towns and countryside in Tuscany. In addition to Fiesole, you can take the bus (not train) to Siena for the day. Also, guided day trips can go to several small towns such as Greve in Chianti and/or San Gimignano. 3 days seeing Florence proper and two day trips should give you that diversity.

It should be less expensive to book a "family" room that sleeps 4 rather than two doubles. You could book for 3 and then notify the hotel of a fourth person in the same room as you booked, should your brother decide to opt in. Do book those as early as possible since there are fewer family-sized rooms, they get sold out sooner. We like www.venere.com and www.booking.com for searching. Hotels near train stations are cheaper but much less desirable and, in Florence and Rome, at least, you'll spend more of taxis. Better to stay in the most central areas.
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Old May 7th, 2015, 12:32 AM
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You may find the best deal, since you are staying a few days in each city, is to take an appartment. That gives you the space, allows you to prepare some food and gets you out of the hotel bustle (but reduces advice). Most appartments offer at least a folder on what is on and where to go though it will tend to be in Italian or maybe just a few European languages.

Travel time in Italy, I find midday is great for space, tourists tend to move in the early morning etc but 12 to 2 seems to have more space (maybe everyone is at lunch). If space is a real problem go first class or even send your parents first class (to save a bit)

Tuscany, Florence is not large but you can visit Lucca and Pisa by train easily on walkup trains and do maybe a paid for bus tour one day.
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Old May 7th, 2015, 03:07 AM
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I understand your reluctance to try apartments, especially if you're inexperienced, but it really does sound like the best idea for you, given the number of people and your budget.

At least do a little research. You can start here by posting a request for apartment recommendations. Also, use tripadvisor and vrbo.com to read reviews and recommendations.
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Old May 7th, 2015, 04:31 AM
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Where to stay

If you'll be traveling by train, you need to stay in a city with train connections. Arezzo is a nice small city in Tuscany, which is easily accessible by train. Coming from Venice, you'd have to change trains in Florence or Bologna (preferably Florence, because it's an easier station). Arezzo is an attractive small city, and very Tuscan. The Church of San Francesco has a wonderful fresco cycle, the Legend of the True Cross, by Piero della Francesca. This was restored about 15 years ago, and for a while lots of tourists flocked there to see it, but now Arezzo seems to have been forgotten again. On the first Sunday of every month, starting on the Saturday (even if Saturday is in the previous month) there is a nice outdoor antiques fair in Arezzzo.

From Arezzo, you can make a day trip to Florence or a day trip to Assisi. In fact, since there are also direct trains (with no change of train) from Assisi to Rome, you could stop over there for a night on your way to Rome. (It's best to spend one night, because otherwise there's no place in Assisi to leave your luggage.) If you go on to Rome from there, I suggest you seek out one of the few direct trains, to avoid a change of trains with the possible risk of having to drag your luggage up and down steps.

Hotels

I don't believe it's true that triple and quad hotel rooms are so rare. The modern (and usually more expensive) hotels tend to have rooms that are all the same size, and they usually don't have many triples or quads (or singles, for that matter). However, the older, smaller, family-run hotels often have rooms of all different sizes, and I've never had trouble finding triples and quads. Rooms for five or more people are definitely rare.

A lot of hotels are completely non-smoking, so you'd want to make sure your dad could smoke on the balcony or terrace of whatever hotel you choose.

I use www.booking.com to find hotel rooms. You can enter the destination as (for example) "Rome center city" instead of just "Rome", to get a selection of hotels that are in the center of the city. In most larger cities, the cheapest hotels are those near the train station, and this may not be the most central part of the city. If you don't find a hotel you can afford in the most central area, you can look in the left hand column, under "Location", for the train station area. The main stations you'd want are Termini in Rome; Santa Maria Novella in Florence; and Santa Lucia in Venice.

If you book a room on a reservation site, you might want to send the hotel an email asking about the smoking rules. They're often stated on the information page about a hotel, but not always. You could also check to see if the hotel can offer you a cheaper price for booking directly with them. However, on the whole, I prefer using Booking.com because they have an excellent "manage your reservations" facility, and they also have a good app for your smart phone or tablet.

I wouldn't book rooms this far ahead; most hotels haven't even decided the prices for next year yet. I usually book a month or two in advance, but April and May are high season, so you might want to keep that in mind and book a little earlier.

Don't pay much attention to the number of stars a hotel has; it's not a reliable mark of quality in Italy. I rely on the guest ratings on www.booking.com . You should always read the guest reviews as well before making a final decision.

Trains

You can get tickets at the last minute for almost every train, but, as others have said, you might miss out on the bargain prices, which are available in limited numbers. Since you're traveling next year, the specific types of discounted tickets mentioned above may no longer exist, but they'll certainly be replaced by other discounts. You can use the present year's schedules to research your trip; the prices and timetables don't usually change much. Have a look at http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...005817f90aRCRD

You need to use the Italian names of the cities: Venezia, Firenze, and Roma. Choose the station name I mentioned above, under hotels.

Yesterday, on the spur of the moment, I went to Venice for the day, to meet a friend. I had to change trains in Bologna, and the trains between there and Venice are on the very busy Rome-Venice line. I bought the tickets the day before, and had no problem getting the trains I wanted. In fact, on the afternoon train returning to Bologna, I even got a last-minute economy ticket.

I always ride in 2nd class, unless I get a discount in 1st class that brings the price down to the level of 2nd class. Trains on the Rome-Venice line (which also passes through Florence) are heavily used by foreign tourists; I would estimate that about 30% of the passengers in the morning were non-Italian tourists. People usually check out of their hotels in the morning and head immediately to their next destination. I would estimate that the 2nd class carriage I was in was about 75% full in the morning. I had a window seat, in a carriage with airline-style seating, and there was no one in the seat next to me for the entire journey. On the way back, I'd be surprised if the carriage was even 25% full. (That's surely why there were still economy tickets left.) This was a train leaving Venice at 16:35, arriving in Rome at around 9 PM. If you want a less crowded train, and a better chance at discounted fares, you might want to travel in the late afternoon where possible. Usually a hotel will keep your bags after you check out, allowing you to spend several more hours in the city.

If any of your trips are on regional trains, it's best not to buy those tickets in advance. These tickets have no reserved seats, so they never sell out, and the prices are always the same. Just buy the tickets at any train station in Italy. Regional tickets are not for a specific train. In order to establish the time of travel, and prevent the tickets from being reused, you have to stamp them in a little machine by the trackside before boarding the train. If you buy a regional ticket online, it's for a restricted time period, and the tickets are absolutely not exchangeble for a different train, not even if you want to change the ticket for a reason that's the fault of Trenitalia. This is why I never buy regional tickets online. All other tickets on Italian trains have reserved seats on a specific train. If you pay the full price, you can change the tickets for a different train, up to an hour after the scheduled departure time.

Final thoughts

Palenq often implies that I'm a skinflint because I insist that 1st class on Italian trains isn't worth the extra 30% to 50% the tickets cost. I don't think I'm a skinflint, because I often pay full price for a train ticket even when a discount is available, to preserve my flexibility. To me, my flexibility is more important than two extra inches of leg room, so that's where I put my extra money. There are no tiny cramped seats in any class on an Italian train, and the trips are fairy short.

For the same reason, I almost never accept a discounted prepaid, nonrefundable price for a hotel room. I prefer to pay the full price in return for being able to change the dates or cancel without a penalty.

I agree that you should pack light when traveling by train, because getting huge suitcases on and off a train, and down the aisles, is no picnic. Finding a place to put them is the least of your worries. Yesterday, I saw two enormous suitcases, cabled to a hand rail, right in the entryway to one of the trains I was on. I have a feeling the owner (or owners) got them that far and realized they couldn't get them into the carriage. Actually, it's forbidden to block the entryway or the passageway between cars; these weren't totally blocking the passage, but the conductors must have been feeling indulgent to have allowed them to remain there.
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Old May 7th, 2015, 05:05 AM
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Indulgent until the next rain crash...

Good advice bvlenci
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Old May 7th, 2015, 06:29 AM
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To me, my flexibility is more important than two extra inches of leg room, so that's where I put my extra money>

There you go again - the only difference between first- and second-class is a few extra inches of leg room - so so inaccurate beyond beleif you would even say that - makes you seem you've never seen first class - the major difference is not just a few extra inches of leg room - it is the rows with just one seat in them - an aisle and a window seat - two of these can face each other for couples with a table in between - this is a plus much more than just a few extra inches of leg room.

Plus in first class seats are as bvienci recently said usually half full - more room to spread out in - you can find an empty seat to put your bags on - 2nd class has 25% more seats in the same size rail car and they are typically much fuller - harder to easily stow luggage - Man in Seat 61 last year on an Italian traint thread said that he 'was an aficionado of first class' for reasons he gives on his web site.

No to say that ony a few extra inches of leg room is the difference is just NOT true - there are many benefits - not to say 2nd class is not comfy enough - the seats are - just for the reasons I gave above it should be obvious to anyone who has seen each class in actual service that there are indeed significant benefits to first class on any European train and for the trip of a lifetime splurge a bit and again sometimes discounted first class tickets may not cost much more than the cheapest available 2nd class ticket.
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Old May 7th, 2015, 08:08 AM
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Oh yes, agree 100% with PalenQ!! Last year in the Intercity train between Chiusi and Bologna I made the foolish decision to purchase 2nd class tickets to save a few Euros. Had to travel in a compartment 100% full, barely space to move. Not sure what I would have done with my suitcase if I had not been traveling with my friend who's fit and was able to raise our 26" suitcases and place them on the overhead racks. It was the most unpleasant trip I've ever taken. Never again will I travel 2nd class in trains that offer first class, except maybe if its for a daytrip where I'm not carrying suitcases.
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Old May 7th, 2015, 09:35 AM
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Our first trip to Italy we stayed in an apartment. It was so nice, there is so much more room in an apartment than in a hotel. Even if you don't do any cooking in the apartment there will be room for you to all have space and not bump into one another. Both times in Italy we used Sleep in Italy and for Venice last year we used Venice Apartments. You just have to read the reviews on the apartment site as well as another site, I used Trip Advisor. Both times that we have stayed in Rome the apartment was opened by another person who lived in the same building,so that if we had any questions there was someone we could talk to. Very easy. You have a lot of time to research and make your decision. Have a great trip!!!
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