itinerary refinement

I would skip the Loire Valley (4 nights in Paris is minimal) and cut one night from Venice and dd it to Rome.

IMO, you have enough destinations in 13 nights. I'd fly from Paris to Venice and add the night to Venice. Will you rent a car or join a tour to see the Loire Valley? When is this trip?

Another vote for not adding any more stops to an already - IMO - busy itinerary.

And another vote for flying from Paris to Venice.

I would add the night you save to Rome and do a daytrip to Orvieto for a nice change of pace.

Why do you think we should fly from Paris to Venice rather than take an overnight train?

I do feel like we are doing to much, but I also feel that there is only cities in our itinerary, and I am not sure if we should add some countryside either in France or Italy.

Then spend three days in the countryside in Tuscany and take a day trip to Firenze.

I assume people are suggesting you fly to Venice to save time; also many people find sleeping on trains near to impossible.

Those 4 cites all demand more time..
Ideally, you would have 5 nites each for Paris, Venice and Rome, and 3 in Florence. Frankly, I would skip Paris this trip and add rural Tuscany to your Italy mix.

Most people don't sleep very well on overnight trains so it's not nearly as restful (or cheap) as you might think. The budget airlines (or even the non-budget)in Europe don't penalize you on one-way trips like they do in the US so they can be a bargain. Checking a random date in September for Paris Orly to Venice Marco Polo (both easy transits from/to city centers)finds a price of 19.99€ + taxes of 37.12 =57.11€ on My Air.

I love trains, but an extra night walking around in magical Venice would definitely beat the overnight train, IMHO, so, fly from Paris to Venice.

hi dave,

assuming that you are alrady locked into a "fly into Paris, leave from Rome" open jaw arangement, I suggest dropping florence entirely.

that gives you, potentially, 5 nights Paris, 4 nights Venice, 5 nights Rome. trust me, if you try to do all 4, by the time you get to Rome you won't care if you never see another art gallery or museum. in Venice, you can ride the vaporetti, visit the islands, wander round the little streets, and have a lovely restful time before you hit rome.

florence will still be there.

regards, ann

If you stick with your original itinerary, you might think about a day trip to one of the lovely chateaux within striking distance of Paris (e.g. Vaux le Vicomte, http://www.vaux-le-vicomte.com/en/index.php). The Loire Valley really isn't a day trip or even a single-overnight-trip.

Ok. Thanks for all the replies. Since the original plan was Italy, we are cutting a day short in Paris. But I am still not sure which city to add the day too. From what I've heard, Venice is extremely touristy so I thought 2 nights was an ok amt. of time. This leaves florence and rome. Are there any specific day trips from either place. Bologna? Sienna? cortona? Orvieto? Pompeii? Which can be accomplished from where? I am so overwhelmed.

Why are you looking for day trips?
Your time is too short already.

Did you already buy your airline tickets?

I'd skip Paris and focus on Italy.

As everyone has already said, you're doing too much.

Your itinerary sounds like you are assuming that this will be your one & only trip to these areas of Europe. Too much. Too fast. You are moving at a pace similar to the Blur Tours. See it. Photographic it. Move on. If you want that. Perfect. We are done.

But if you want to savor it a little, slow down.

Ian

lexdave

It's always so hard to choose, isn't it?

I think you should just accept that this won't be your last trip, and you'll have a chance to go back and do what you didn't have time to do the first time. Chances are you'll get to Paris again, for example, as it lends itself well to shorter vacations abroad.

You can always make up your mind about day trips once you're there, but others are right - you'll find you have plenty to do without them. If you're determined to see smaller towns, Orvieto is about an hour from Rome, and Siena is about an hour or so's bus ride from Florence.

In your shoes, I'd do this: bear with me, but notwithstanding the advice to take a cheap airline Paris-Venice, I think getting there should be half the fun. Cheap airlines rarely have enjoyable schedules, plus commuting to airports and hanging around them is not how I like to spend my holiday. so:

Paris 3 nights, then:
Take the TGV train leaving from Paris Est at around 08:24, the one that arrives in Basel around 11:52, in order to catch the CISalpino train at 12:28 for Verona (Porta Nuova station, arriving 18:27) and routing via Thun, Brig, Domodossola, and Milan. Yes, it takes 10 hours to get to Verona but it'll be a train trip you'll likely only make once in your life, and it definitely gives you a sense of Europe as you cross some gorgeous Swiss and Italian alpine scenery. Don't miss this scenery by going on an overnight train!!! Verona is a pleasant university city, rather less intense than Milan or Rome and also cheaper for an overnight than Venice.

Venice - 2 nights (by leaving Verona next morning, you have the better part of 2 days
Florence - 3 (do a daytrip to Siena if you're determined)
Rome - 3

total 12 nights.

By the way, the above suggestion does break a rule of mine, which is to have no leg of the trip (exclusive of transatlantic plane journey) no longer than 4 hours max, if possible, and preferably less. With this in mind, perhaps you should play around with the itinerary a bit after consulting a map (and bahn.de, which is a great place to look up train schedules) and work out other versions that might work better for you, say with 2 nights in between Paris and Venice, for example.

I know why others are adamant that you slow down, and do fewer cities/towns, and they are of course right, but I get the sense you are both young and also eager to get an overall picture, even if it is a bit 'intense'. So if you are willing to accept that, and take the trip on its own terms, and not expect to take in too many intense sights at any given stop (e.g. museums, art galleries, or for that matter additional day trips, etc.) this trip, I think something approaching your vision is not only possible, but enjoyable and memorable.

Good luck!

You already have a very busy itinerary and a minimal # of days in major cities. There is no way you can add the Loire - and I would be lookng to cut somehwere so you're not so very rushed in each place.

On a 13-day trip, I wouldn't spend one of those precious days sitting on a train -- no matter how lovely the passing scenery is.

Yes, Venice is touristy. The destinations in your itinerary are some of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. I wouldn't cut a day from Venice just because lots of tourists like you will be there.

I agree with bobthenavigator, you don't have time for day trips. I'd only do the Loire Valley day trip if you keep Paris at 4 nights and fly to Venice.

Rather than a Loire Valley day trip, which would take a lot more time and not really give you a "feel" for the area, I would suggest going to Versailles if you are determined to do a palace/chateau while in Paris.

Personally, your itinerary is too busy for day trips in any of your destinations. Save those for when you return and spend quality time (meaning at least a week) in and around any of your mentioned destinations.

You will do a "rapid fire" trip like the one outlined only once because it is exhausting. On subsequent trips, you will learn to take it a bit easier with fewer destinations.