Itinerary Questions

Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 07:14 AM
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Itinerary Questions

Hi Everyone,

This is my first time posting on the boards. I have noticed that many of you have given great advice to travellers! So, in saying that, I have read that it is best to stay longer in certain areas to get a better feel of the area.

My wife and I are planning on travelling to Europe sometime in the near future for two months (likely May and June). We are both in our mid-20s. We will be backpacking and will be flying from Canada to England likely as a starting point. I would like to know if there are any redundancies in our trip and if some places we should stay longer (I know, I know! I'd stay in one place for a month if we could, but we do want too see Europe). We understand that we need to focus our trip so that we do not get bogged down travelling on trains and buses, ultimately draining our energy. We also want to balance that with seeing as much as possible without feeing exhausted.

We are mostly interested in history, and going to places off the beaten path. Not terribly interested in spending our travel dollars on nights out at bars. It is our first trip, so we would like to hit a few of the larger cities as well.

(Fly into London)
London - 2
Bath - 4 (visiting family)
Amsterdam, The Netherlands - 2
Brussels, Belgium- 1
Ghent, Belgium- 1
Bruges, Belgium- 2
Cologne, Germany- 2
Frankfurt, Germany - 1
Heidelberg, German- 3
Rothenburg, Germany - 1
Munich, Germany - 3
Interlaken/Gimmelwald, Switzerland - 3
Venice, Italy - 2 (this is out of the way, but my wife wants to see it because we are so close and we won't be travelling to Italy for a very long time)
Salzburg, Austria - 2
Vienna, Austria - 4
Prague, Czech Republic -3
Dresden, Germany -1
Berlin, Germany 3
(Fly out from Berlin)

This totals 40 days, so we have an additional 20 days to play with. What cities should we add those extra days to?
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 07:24 AM
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I don;t see where you have allowed time for the travel between cities. Travel between each 2 places will take from 1/2 to a whole day depending on distance and circumstance. Since you have 18 places - you can assume your 20 "extra" days will be eaten up getting from one place to another.

(Granted not all will be a full day - but even a day trip - from Brussels to Bruges - will eat up about 3 hours in transit RT leaving you only 1/2 a day there.

Suggest you go to bahn.de and check the train schedules to see if you really have any extra days or not.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 07:24 AM
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You don't seem to be allowing travel time between the places you want to visit.
Why only two days in Amsterdam, yet 4 days in Belgium? There is far more to the Netherlands than Amsterdam, and if you aren't figuring in travel time it leaves you with far less than 2 days there.
2days is not enough for London, especially if you are even slightly jet lagged.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 07:32 AM
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Your daily schedule leaves out travel time. For instance, you have to get to Brussels before you can spend one day there. Your timetable will barely squeeze out an afternoon and evening to experience the city, after your train (or whatever) arrives, and only a bit of the next morning before you scoot off to somewhere else.
This reads like check-list travel where much of what you see is through the windows of public transport. My advice is to blend those 20 days into the current schedule, giving a little more time to experience your destinations.
One more tip: Air fares trans-Atlantic tend to rise substantially at the start of June. You will save a couple of hundred dollars if you could travel in spring. With the current value of the Canadian dollar, it's worth considering.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 07:39 AM
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Just offering a culled trip

Bath - 4 (visiting family)
Amsterdam, The Netherlands - 2
Bruges, Belgium- 2
Heidelberg, German- 3
Rothenburg, Germany - 2
Munich, Germany - 3
Interlaken/Gimmelwald, Switzerland - 3
Venice, Italy - 3 (this is out of the way, but my wife wants to see it because we are so close and we won't be travelling to Italy for a very long time)
Salzburg, Austria - 2
Vienna, Austria - 4
Prague, Czech Republic 4
Dresden, Germany - day trip from Berlin
Berlin, Germany 5
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 07:45 AM
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travelling on trains and buses,>

Are you under 26 - if so you can use the Eurail Youthpass - only for those under 26 and much cheaper than a regular Eurailpass and you are traveling so long you may look at a one-month pass - as Eurails do not pass in Britain, start your pass when you get to Belgium and then in all those countries just hop on any train anytime - fully flexible (with a very few exceptions like the Thalys trains in Belgium and Holland - but otherwise just show up. Such fully flexible tickets can cost a ton!

For oodles of great stuff to plan a European rail trip check out these IMO fantastic sites - www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 08:44 AM
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As others have pointed out, the big holes in your itinerary are the displacements from one place to another. Even if the train “only” takes, say, just under three hours (like Amsterdam to Brussels), you have to count the time door-to-door and then allow even more time, from packing and checking out and heading to the train station to arriving, walking or taking public transportation to find your new lodgings, signing in and freshening up.

That adds up, in this case to half a day: If you get to Amsterdam Centraal in time to catch the 08:55 you arrive in Brussels Central at 11:37, then find your hotel, sign in, freshen up - half a day is gone.

All that time is not devoted to sightseeing and can’t count towards either Amsterdam or Brussels, it counts as Transit time and I see none of that on your list.

Venice is NOT close to Gimmelwald, it takes a long 8-hour day on the trains to get there, and almost as long to get from Venice to Salzburg.

If you add transit times, your schedule would look like this, and for many places what's left is really a short time to spend there:

(Fly into London) 
London - 2
Transit to Bath 1/2 day

Bath - not 4 but 2 1/2 days (visiting family)
Transit to Amsterdam 1 day

Amsterdam, The Netherlands - not 2 but 1 1/2 days
Transit to Brussels 1/2 day

Brussels, Belgium- 1
Transit to Ghent a few hours (train 36 minutes)

Ghent, Belgium- less than one full day
Transit to Bruges a few hours (train 24 minutes)

Bruges, Belgium- less than two full days
Transit Bruges to Köln 1/2 day

Cologne, Germany - not two but 1 1/2 day
Transit to Frankfurt am Main 1/2 day

Frankfurt, Germany - not one but 1/2 day *)
Transit to Heidelberg a few hours (train 50 min)

Heidelberg, German - not three but about 1 1/2 days
Transit to Rothenburg ob der Tauber 1/2 day (trains about 4 hours) 

Rothenburg, Germany - 1
Transit to Munich about 1/2 day (trains a good three hours)

Munich, Germany - not three but 1 1/2 days
Transit to Bernese Oberland (Gimmelwald etc) 1 day

Interlaken/Gimmelwald, Switzerland - 3
Transit to Venice 1 day (trains about 8 hours, some a bit quicker, some a bit longer)

Venice, Italy - not two but 1 day (this is out of the way, but my wife wants to see it because we are so close and we won't be traveling to Italy for a very long time)
Transit to Salzburg 1 day (fastest trains 6.30 hrs)

Salzburg, Austria - not two but 1 day
Transit to Vienna 1/2 day (train 2 1/2 hrs)

Vienna, Austria - not four but 3 days
Transit to Prague 1/2 day (trains about 5 hours)

Prague, Czech Republic - not three but 2 1/2 days
Transit to Dresden 1/2 day (trains 2:16 hrs)

Dresden, Germany - 1
Transit to Berlin 1/2 day (trains a good 2 hrs)

Berlin, Germany not three but 2 1/2 days
 (Fly out from Berlin)

*) skip Frankfurt, simply change trains and move on to Heidelberg, there is nothing in "Mainhattan" (nickname for Frankfurt because it is the financial center) for somebody on a tight schedule like yours.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 09:35 AM
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Thank you for all the helpful advice! Exactly, travel time needs to be calculated, and you all have been very helpful in recognizing the time between cities. Everything appears to be much closer in Europe than in Canada, but again like someone mentioned, we need to take into consideration time it takes to get from the train/bus station to the hotel or hostel. This is exactly the type of advice I was hoping for.

To answer one of your questions, My wife will be under 26 but I will not be so I will definitely look into Youth pass for her.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 09:43 AM
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As most everyone else has said -- this is VERY rushed and doesn't take into account any Travel time.

Cutting to the chase . . it is basically impossible - or at least no fun at all unless you just like packing and moving constantly.

Just addressing the first half of your plan:

London - Half a jet lagged day (basically a non-day) and one additional day

Bath - 3.5 days

Amsterdam, The Netherlands - 1 day (it will take the best part of a day to get from Bath to Amsterdam whether you fly from LHR or Bristol, or take the train))

Brussels, Belgium - Barely half a day

Ghent, Belgium - about half a day

Bruges, Belgium - 1.5 days

Cologne, Germany - 1 and a fraction day

Frankfurt, Germany - a few hours

Heidelberg, German 2.5 days

Rothenburg, Germany a few hours

and so it goes . . .

Cut your destinations in half or double your time . . .
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 09:44 AM
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Oh, our posts crossed . . . You posted while I was trying to figure out your plan.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 10:46 AM
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Thanks janisj!
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 10:51 AM
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"We are mostly interested in history, and going to places off the beaten path."

Cologne, Germany- 2
Frankfurt, Germany - 1
Heidelberg, German- 3
Rothenburg, Germany - 1
Munich, Germany - 3

If those are your goals for Germany, then I see the history part, but you are surely on the well-beaten path.

With Dresden and Berlin later on, you probably don't need a 3rd, 4th or 5th big city - Cologne, Frankfurt AND Munich? Even Heidelberg is majorly urban. And tourist-mecca Rothenburg defines the beaten path.


The ten days above PLUS Dresden and Berlin mean a nice amount of time for Germany, but I'd suggest the following instead for those 10 days to stream line your travel, to minimize your unpacking/packing/moving routine, get slightly off the beaten path, and see some historical places.

After Bruges: Train to Cologne for 3-hour stopover, see cathedral + ?; continue to wine town Boppard (2 nights.) See some real castles and half-timbered wine villages nearby (Oberwesel, fine old town wall, 15 min. by train; St. Goar w/Rheinfels Castle, 10 min.; Braubach and Marksburg Castle, 30 min. by river cruise.)

Boppard: http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/6754/...rktplatz_r.jpg
www.marksburg.de
Oberwesel: http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/med.../oberwesel.jpg

Sightsee in the area on Day 3, then board a train for Würzburg (on the way to Munich) for 4 nights. W'burg is a nice medium-sized city with a palace (Residenz) and a fortress (Marienberg) and great for daytrips to historic towns - Nuremberg, Bamberg, walled wine town Iphofen, Marktbreit, Ochsenfurt, and Bad Windsheim. You can visit Rothenburg from there too, but who needs all the tourists?

Lovely Iphofen: http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org...&threadID=2985

Würzburg: a little like Heidelberg, a little like Prague:
http://hotel-am-congress-centrum-wue...-bei-Nacht.jpg

Bamberg - think beer:

http://trialx.com/curetalk/wp-conten.../Bamberg-2.jpg

http://www.bamberg.info/tn_img/191575_schlenkerla.jpg

Bad Windsheim's open air museum - 600 years of local history in one place: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractio...conia_Bav.html

Then Munich.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 10:54 AM
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(cont.)
Markbreit and Ochsenfurt, near Würzburg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLUgpoQIFHI

All the places in my post above and here are easily reached by local train from Boppard or Würzburg.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 11:04 AM
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You're in your mid-20s and have Canadian levels of vacation time and you're trying to do this bat-guano crazy itinerary?

Smarten up. You won't "see Europe" in a trip like this. And none of your proposed paths are unbeaten.

You have 40 days. Take a week for each of five places (London, Paris, Munich, Vienna and Prague) and day trip around - this is the hub-and-spoke approach that allows you to (1) rent apartments, which are less expensive than hotels on a square footage/amenities basis, (2) HAVE MORE TIME TO EXPLORE and not just to travel to your next destination. Tack on another four days for family in Bath.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 11:06 AM
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Thanks Russ, I will definitely explore those options. It at the same time slightly overwhelming yet exciting, it appears there are many destinations that are win-win.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 11:37 AM
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I really like BigRuss' suggestion. 5 weeks, 5 major destinations (and realize that even a full week in a place like London or Paris can be quite rushed), and w/ 40 days you'd have time for a couple of one or two night stops between some of the biggies.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 03:15 PM
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I like my suggestion too. But I'm an American, so I don't get the time off to effectuate it . . . ;-)
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Old Dec 3rd, 2013, 07:41 PM
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>

But you've done exactly that, not taking any account of traveling times. It's terribly rushed. Big Russ's suggestion is a good one. And forget the "off the beaten path."You're young, new to travel and Europe and everywhere you go is going to be off that path for you. If you really wanted too get off the beaten path, such as it is, you wouldn't have chosen any of those destinations. Save off the beaten path for your 25th trip to Europe.
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Old Dec 4th, 2013, 05:40 AM
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Your trip will be chaos in the execution. You don't have time to see many of the places you include. Two days in London? Hope you're returning soon to actually see London. Take some time to do a little research and choose about half the destinations you have started with. Europe is many experiences. The only one you will have is rushing about from bus to train and seeing things from windows.
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Old Dec 4th, 2013, 11:16 AM
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I remember, barely, when I first went to Europe - and I was on a flexible schedule with my 1st railpass - I went to Paris - spent three full days trekking around and was itching to get on and see something new so I hopped on a train to another place I had heard about and dreamt of going to all my life - and again after a few days I wanted to see another country, another famous city.

At that time more than a few days in a city like Paris bored me -yes you could spend a week in each stop but I think for the average first-time younger tourist 3 full days in any city is enough - you know you may never come back to Europe - yes your original plan is too much traveling between places and not enough time in them

but a week in each place -well leave that for your 25th trip not your first IME of a first-time Euro traveler.
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