TormentedSoul

Hi Guys!

I'm currently planning a trip to Europe for about a month or slightly longer. It's about 4 years since I last went to Europe and this will be my first trip with my girlfriend. We are going in december to experience winter and snow for the first time in our lives, and also to catch as many football matches as possible (we are avid football fans).

This is my current draft of Itinerary.

Arrive in Berlin
Stay for 2 nights

Travel to Dortmund
Stay for 1 night

Travel to Paris via Amsterdam and Brussels (I know they are not worth visiting, so we will stop over for a couple of hours just to walk around).
Stay for 3 nights

Travel to Switzerland (not yet decided which city, could do with some advise)
Stay for 3 nights

Travel to Munich
Stay for 2 nights

Travel to Vienna or Budapest (or someone can advise on this leg cause we had spare time so squeezed in either of this 2 city)
Stay for 3 nights

Travel to London (should we visit other city? Heard Scotland is nice)
Stay for 7 nights

Travel to Spain (Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia; Portugal worth visiting?)
Stay for 5 nights

Travel to Italy (Venice, Rome)
Stay for 5 nights

Fly home

Any suggestions for us? Dortmund and Valencia are purely for Football matches so we are only expected to stay 1 night there. Any other cities worth going and is the duration we planned for each city enough? Vienna made sense for us after Munich because its nearer but heard Budapest is much nicer.

We are planning to travel by Train mostly except from Vienna to UK, UK to Spain and Spain to Italy by flight. Any saving tips for accomodation and transportation?

Lastly, and safety tips for notorious theft cities like Rome and Paris?

Thank you so much in advance and I look forward to your suggestions.

bilboburgler

Hi, welcome to Fodors

"Amsterdam and Brussels (I know they are not worth visiting" well I'm not impressed with Brussels but never sent don't go there, while Amsterdam is worth at least two nights.

But I would drop Swiss cities from your list. Since you are coming for the cold try and stay in a swiss village/town.

seat61.com gives good train.

Theft, don't bring anything you don't mind losing, do hold onto anything like a phone/camera/wallet. Do have a plan. I'd like to say don't chat to people but since this is a holiday I can't.

Budapest/Vienna, basically Budapest is better in so many ways except Vienna has better museums. Spas (yes out doors and yes while it snows) are way better in Budapest.

bilboburgler

I think your Spain bits needs a lot of work and may depend on football matches. You can also do tours of the grounds for a small sum. Look at Barcelona ground for example.

pariswat

'Travel to Paris via Amsterdam and Brussels (I know they are not worth visiting)

London (should we visit other city? Heard Scotland is nice)

Portugal worth visiting

Lastly, and safety tips for notorious theft cities like Rome and Paris?'

Waw.
Don't know where you got your info from but with such nonsense, I won't bother answering - you defintely have some ideas in your 'tormented soul' that whatever we mightsay will not change.

I'll simply said that in one post you alienated yourself from the Belgians, the Dutches, the Italians and Frenchs.
Then you ignored the Welsh and negate the Portugese.
Not bad.

I'm Belgian. And work in Paris. And speak dutch.

TormentedSoul

I didn't mean to offend anyone, but I have searched itineraries on this board and those infos came from posters around here so you can correct me if I am wrong.

My original itinerary included more cities but research has shown that it is not advisable as travelling around europe is tiring and it is better to spend more time in a place.

Lastly, sorry if I accidentally offended anyone!

PalenQ

If doing all or most of that by rail you are one of the relatively few profiles warranting looking a railpasses - with that many trains kind of a no-brainer and so easy - in most countries just hop on any train anytime - for great info on trains and passes check not only www.seat61.com, recommended above and now becoming the premier site for Europe rail info and also these informative sites: www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

Amsterdam to me is one of the most fascinating and gorgeous cities on the planet - not sure what info you've been getting but it is from very poor sources. Brussels has its pluses but many are underwhelmed but not IME with Amsterdam.

manouche

Trains are expensive and take way too long. You can get cheap flights to almost any of these cities once you are in Europe. Look on EasyJet, Vueling etc and try Kayak to compare prices.

You have too many cities on your list. Try to drop a few otherwise you won't have the chance to really see what you're coming here for. When you change cities, you have to change hotels, and you end up losing at least half a day doing this. Better have a re-think and pick the places the most important to you.

TormentedSoul

With Bilbo and Palen's glowing recommendation on Amsterdam, I am even more tempted to add it into my itinerary. I'm not sure how to drop any more cities because they all seems important to me. What would you recommend? I would love to visit Lisbon, Prague and some of France/Italy's beautiful small cities too but time wouldn't allow.

Looking at seat61.com, I'm thinking of getting Eurail pass but any idea if it's worth to do so? Or am I better off getting individual country's rail passes? (e.g. DB Bahn 3 day pass, Paris Visit Card, London Pass etc)

My biggest dilemma now is which cities to cut down on days, which cities to add/drop.

PalenQ

About the pass - a multi-country Eurailpass wold be best as your stays in most countries or train travels seem limited inside the country so not enough to realize cost of the pass - international trains can be expensive with discounted tickets not always available perhaps. If taking the number of trains again I think a pass would be a great deal - and especially the aspect of being able to just jump on any train anytime except in Spain and Italy.

annhig

i would start with your priorities - football and snow - and plan accordingly.

are there any actual matches that you want to see? can you get tickets for them? those are fixed points that you will need to work round if you can pull that off.

then the snow - do you want to try your hands at skiing? sledging? snow-walking? a stay in the Berner Overland [Wengen, Grindelwald. Lauterbach] would give the opportunity to enjoy the mountain atmosphere and perhaps to get a taste of winter sports.

once you've sorted out those parts of the trip, you can start working out what time you've got left, and how to join the bits together.

Sassafrass

You are doing a lot of zigzagging around. Get a good map to determine your route.

PalenQ

You are unlikely to see any snow anywhere on your itinerary except as annhig notes in the Swiss Alps - like the Grindelwald area or Zermatt area or a handful of other winter-sports resorts - most of Europe rarely gets snow in December or even in winter though it does rain a lot.

Sue_xx_yy

I think you might want to look at itineraries offered by the commercial bus tour operators. Not because you want to take such a tour but because you can learn a lot from studying how such companies organize things. You mention going to Europe before; where did you go, how did you get around? I ask because your plans cover a lot of territory, and I'm hoping you have an appreciation for just how much territory.

Heed annhig's wise advice to focus on football and snow. Because you are trying to catch specific football matches in specific cities - quite far apart - on specific dates, making your itinerary efficient will be more difficult.

TormentedSoul

Sassa is right, we are doing some zig zag at the moment because we want to accomodate the football fixtures we are going to watch. So far we have gotten the tickets of the Dortmund, Roma and Arsenal matches. We would try to get those from Paris and Valencia, which means those leg of the trips cannot be move out of itinerary. Looking at the European map, this is the best we could do in terms of geographic locations. I haven't researched that much on Italy, but I have seen many here saying between Rome and Venice (Florence) there are many nice places to visit so I might add it in if time allows.

I would heed Palen's advise about the passes. Seems decently priced enough for so many cities. I would probably combine it with city passes as well (London Pass etc). There are some who said Paris pass is overpriced and not worth getting. Is that true?

I would love to try the snow sports! Is that area of Switzerland hard to access by public transport?

swandav2000

Hi TormentedSoul,

There are only a few places in Switzerland that are not well integrated to the public transport system (thinking of the Jura & the far northwestern bits, based on comments by other Fodorites).

The problem won't be transportation but will be finding hotels at this late stage. If there is a likelihood of snow in December, the hotels will have been booked for months -- or even a year -- ahead of time.

What part of December exactly are you thinking of, and where are you thinking of going? Most snow-sure spots in December are Zermatt and the Engadin Valley (Pontresina, Sils, Celerina, Silvaplana, etc). But Zermatt is one place where folks make reservations for the next year as they are checking out from this year.

Have fun as you plan!

s

bilboburgler

London Pass and Paris Pass both way over priced.

PalenQ

I would love to try the snow sports! Is that area of Switzerland hard to access by public transport?>

Use Interlaken as a base if all in the Jungfrau Region snow belt is full - I think Interlaken, too low for much snow, may always have rooms if booked in advance and then take the trains up to Grindelwald or Murren and lovely ski areas.

annhig

I would love to try the snow sports! Is that area of Switzerland hard to access by public transport?>>

trains will take you all the way there - even to the top of the Jungfraujoch. if you could stay in Wengen, say, for a few days, you could enrol in Ski school and see what you think about falling over with a long stick attached to each foot. or try "langlauf" which is ski-touring - fewer hills, just as much effort. or just enjoy riding round on the trains.

I suggest that if you are interested, you do some quick reading of a guide book, then book your accommodation quickly.

swandav2000

Hi again,

I see many people are suggesting you head to the Jungfrau region of Switzerland to get your fix of snow. However, that area is not as snow-sure as the two I mentioned, Zermatt & the Engadin. I've skied from Wengen & Grindelwald a number of times, and I can tell you that it's getting harder and harder every year. The last time I skied there, the instructor had to work hard to find us good snow -- and this was in February. Also, a few years back, they had to cancel the famous Lauberhorn ski race from Wengen, which runs in February. Snow in December is even harder to find than in Feb.

Do you want snow on the mountaintops, or snow in the village? If the former, then you may be ok with the Jungfrau region, and head to the glacier at the Jungfraujoch to get your snow fix.

Oh, also, in American English, "langlauf" is cross-country skiing, not ski touring. Again, in American English, "ski touring" is where you strap "skins" on your downhill skis, then climb up a mountain with them on (takes about 2 hours), then take off the skins and ski down. It's a difficult sport.

s

TormentedSoul

Thanks all for your advise and answers. I would probably try something easier I guess if there's even something of that sort. Sorry, I'm totally not knowledgeable about Snows and its sport. Are there Ski for amateurs?

Also, since I'm planning 4 days for Switzerland, do I spend all 4 days in the snow region or I save a few days for cities like Basel/Zurich (or for that matter any other recommended cities)?

If the accommodation isn't available up the mountains, what options do I have? Is staying somewhere down hill feasible which means I have to travel up to ski daily or do I change my snow plans to Austria/France/Italy areas?