Lindafrompotch

I am in the early planning stages for a holiday in France in April 2011.

Who?
The partners in crime will be myself, my two sisters, a friend and my brother in law. We are from South Africa and are all in our late twenties/early thirties.

Where?
2 nights in Epernay (must do, it is my brother in law's ancestral town so it is not negotiable)
3 nights in Loire valley
2 nights in Burgundy
3 nights in Provence
2 nights in Dordogne
7 nights in Paris (infatuated with Paris, want to stay in an apartment for a week definitely)

How?
Mode of transport is train, so that will determine in a huge way where we can stay.
Are looking into a train pass. I know that the train is not ideal for traveling in the country but we all love the trains in Europe and really want to do it this way. Will do tours in Loire valley etc. with company's

Out budget is moderate and we are looking for historic town, hopefully with great markets that are not to touristy. Would like to stay in b&b's We are going to be a week in the city (Paris) so would like to stay in small towns in Burgundy, Provence and Dordogne

Is Blois a good option for the Loire valley?

I will appreciate any advice you can give .

Suja

For the Loire valley, I suggest Amboise, a very beautiful little town with a lovely chateau. I don't know much about transport availability though, as we drove.

In Provence, we spent a lovely holiday touring the perched villages in Vaucluse likes Gordes, Rousillon, Goult, Lacoste etc. again we stayed in a small town which are convenient only if you drive. Avignon is not far from this region and would make a wonderful base. If staying there, I would also recommend a trip to Arles.

Lindafrompotch

Thx for your reply and suggestions Suja, making notes

dsevig

I think you will not see much by trying to do all those wonderul areas of France other than train stations - why not concentrate on the Epernay and Champagne region and then Burgundy area only to have some breathing room and not so hectic!! Paris is fine for 7 days with easy train travel out of the center or airport but I would try to concentrate on these 2 areas - just my thoughts after 5 trips to France where we do 1 week in one area like the Loire and then move a short distance to Normany for another week!! much more relaxing!

jamikins

I agree that your schedule is a bit hectic for what I enjoy.

I think you will have troubles seeing a lot of villages etc without a car - especially in Burgundy, Dordogne and Provence. If possible I would look into getting a car. I think the Dordogne would be very difficult to do by train without a car.

My preference is like dsevig - I would pick a few less places so I dont spend as much time in transit.

So maybe Champagne/Burgundy/Provence and Paris as they are all on the eastern side of the country. As you have it you are zigzagging across the country and the train routes arent likely easy to do that way.

I would spend 1/2 a week in Champagne, 1/2 a week in Burgundy and a week in Provence. I would also drive - the french roads are very easy.

Hope this helps!
J

Echnaton

I second the thought that your itinerary contains too many destinations, too much travelling and not enough time for each destination. France is a country whose culture and lifestyle should be soaked up by leisurely strolling through cities, driving small winding backroads, sipping drinks in cafés, enjoying two-hour lunches and four-hour dinners.

Each destination requires at least one more day. Given your timeframe, this means to skip at least one destination. Travelwise, it makes most sense to skip Dordogne and the Loire Valley. Instead of the Loire Chateaux, visit either Chantilly or Fontainebleau as a daytrip from Paris. You can even do a daytrip to the Loire from Paris - with the TGV, it is just one hour from Paris to Tour - but I am not sure if it is worth the trip.

With Paris, Champagne, Bourgogne and Provence you will see some of the best parts of France. Take your time and enjoy.

Carlux

Although I live in the Dordogne, and think it's the most beautiful part of France, I don't think you have enough time to cone here unless you drop one of the other destinations.

It doesn't seem in your schedule that you have allowed travelling time, particularly if you will be on the train.

If you do take the train to get to the Dordogne, you cannot get around without a car. There is virtually no public transport here.

Something has to go, either Dordogne, or Provence, which would allow you a few extra days here. But seriously, think about a car for at least part of the trip.

Christina

I would cut out the Loire Valley and Dordogne, the rest of your schedule makes more sense (going from Epernay to Burgundy, then Provence, then Paris). Definitely cut out Dordogne, though.

Ambois or Blois would work if you stay in the Loire (or Tours itself, but it's larger, of course). I think options are better from Tours, though, for whatever you might want to do there. Amboise might be okay. For Burgundy, you could stay in Dijon (city) or Beaune (town), both are on the rail line. Both are full of tourists doing the wine thing, so I imagine there are plenty of options for day tours in the surroundings--I know there are from the Dijon tourist office, as I stayed there and saw all the brochures.

If you added anything, Lyon would make much more sense than either the Loire or Dordogne, as it is on the TGV line going from Provence to Paris. It's a big city, but very attractive and interesting.

You might forget the B&B thing if you are mainly going to be staying in places near a train station, as they tend to be out in the country.

For railpasses, definitely look into the France railpass rather than Eurorail. They used to be pretty good deals if you were doing a lot of rail travel within France, but I've heard they have some more restrictions now on seating than they used to (when I had them, they didn't have any). IN other words, they may limit only a certain number of seats to them, I think--this would only be the case with major rail lines like the TGV, not the small local ones.

StCirq

Unless you change your mind about the car, you can't do this. Especially the Dordogne (I have a house there) - it can't be done without a car. Also, you are just trying to cover too much territory in too little time and by the time you arrive someplace and get oriented it will be time to head to the train station again. With the limited timeframe you're working with, I'd pick three destinations at most. You really HAVE to drop the Dordogne; I'd suggest you drop the Loire as well. The others you'll still be rushed to visit, but at least there are train connections and you can get around a bit once you get there on public transportation (though Provence isn't very easy without a car either).

Maybe you should rethink and rent a car. You still couldn't manage your proposed itinerary very well, but it would at least be "do-able."

Echnaton

I smell a consensus among Fodorites about the itinerary...

...and also about the transportation.

In Paris, you take the metro, of course. Otherwise, I strongly recommend a car. The train is perfect to leave Paris and to cover large distances (e.g. from Paris to Dijon), but once you have arrived at a train station, I recommend renting a car. Especially Bourgogne and Provence require a car - you have to drive to villages, abbeys, castles, archeological sites etc. All these destinations are in rural areas. Roads are scenic and easy to drive.

Another aspect: Train tickets for five persons will cost a fortune. Instead, renting a 7-seater minivan (space for 5 persons + luggage) will be more economical, provide excellent sights and you will have fun in your vehicle.

StuDudley

>>In Paris, you take the metro, of course.<,

Why "of course"? We always take the bus, unless it is late at night & the buses have stopped running.

I agree with the others - drop the Dordogne & Loire, and rent a car for Burgundy & Provence. We've never visited Epernay.

Stu Dudley

MissInformation

I agree with StCirq. Unfortunately, you must have a car for Burgundy, Bordeaux, Loire, & Provence. Especially in April. It is rather nice to be able to get into a warm, dry car.

Driving is quite easy in those areas and have very good train service to and from Paris from the larger cities.

With your schedule you will be spending a great deal of time in train stations.

StuDudley

One more thing to consider - the dreaded Sunday, & Monday morning store closings. Almost all shops will be closed in cities (except food in the am, & museums). So, if you arrive in Dijon, for example, on a Saturday afternoon - you'll just have Saturday afternoon to enjoy Dijon at its best. Shops will be closed on Sunday, and Monday morning. Most likely the tourist office will be closed too. If you hit Dijon or Avignon on a dreary/rainy Sunday with not much to do except see the museums - I don't think you get as much enjoyment out of your vacation in France as youn could if you spent 4 days there with a car so you hve more options. With so little time, you might even have difficulty arranging for a "guided" tour in the countryside for 5 people on a Sunday or Monday.

Shops close for a 2 to 2 1/2 hr lunch also.

Stu Dudley

Michel_Paris

A lot of travelling, not so much seeing.

Another option, is add time to Paris. Out of there, you could do a say trip to the Loire, a day trip to Epernay,etc..

Long distances...use train/TGV. Within area (not city) car would be best.

I use metro a lot in Paris, buses are fine also. Metro does not get stuck in traffic . I would not drive in Paris when staying there.

Jeff801

Just one more consdieration along with all the excellent suggestions already posted on this thread.

It is likey that you will encounter a good deal of rain in April. This will be less in the South than in the North. E.g., Caen is one of the wetter cities in France, Cannes is one of the more dry cities.

This may be a consideration for your countryside choices. It is not, for me, an issue in Paris.

If you do France rail passes, you may want to see if it is economical to get a pass that offers three days of Avis car rental as part of the package. These were offered a few years ago and worked well with our plan to travel to a few cities and pick up a boat for a week of self-drive adventures on canals.

Lindafrompotch

Thanx for al the advice fodorites! This is really a wonderful source of information, really appreciate all the input

If we rent a car, what do you think of the following:

3 days Epernay
5 days Loire valley
5 days Burgundy

Advice please

Echnaton

I would say, two days for Epernay will be enough. You will drive to nearby Reims and see the Cathedral. You will vist two or three Champagne wineries. That's it.

I see you insist in the Loire Valley. The array of castles there is overwhelming. You will spend your days visiting three or four castles a day. Alternatively, you can visit a winery. Here are my favourite castles in the Loire Valley (in this order):
- Chambord (for its vastness and grandeur).
- Chenanceau (everybody's darling, small & charming).
- Azay-le-Rideau (just pretty, very nice interiors)
- Villandry (the most beautiful gardens)
- Loches (a medieval castle, to get a diversion)
- Ussé (simply beautiful & the sleeping beauty castle)
- Amboise (because of the adjacent Leonardo-da-Vinci Museum)

There are about 393 more castles in the Loire Valley. It will probably be sufficient if you have seen five or six. This means, three days might be enough.

Okay, you have skipped Provence. IMO, Provence is the most attractive region of the five regions you originally selected. And once you are in Bourgogne, it is just four hours (by car) to the Provence.

So, this is my final proposal. Start with 7 days in Paris. Do a daytrip to Versailles during this time.

From Paris, drive to Epernay (2 hours). Spend two nights there, that gives you almost two days.

From Epernay, drive to Bourgogne/Cote d'Or (the region between Dijon and Beaune) (3 hours). Spend 3 days there, seeing Beaune, Dijon, Clos Vougeot and several wineries. (I also like Marché aux Vins in Beaune).

From Cote d'Or, drive to Provence (4.5 hours). Pick a base in the Avignon, Nimes, Arles, St. Remy area. Spend 4 days there.

From Provence, drive to the Loire (7 hours, it is quite a drive, but you WANT the Loire Valley). Spend 3 days there.

From the Loire, drive to Chantilly (3 hours). See the chateau, spend the last night there and drive to Charles de Gaulle Airport, avoiding the traffic of Paris (30 min).

Echnaton

I was rethinking the itinerary. In order to avoid Paris traffic, you might do this:

Take the train from Paris-Est to Epernay (1:14) and rent the car there. Return the car in Tours and take the train from there to Charles de Gaulle airport (2:06).

This itinerary is still a little rushed because Epernay and Loire are in opposite directions. But IMO it is doable. What you can do is skipping one day in Paris and adding it somewhere else (e.g. in Provence).

Eurocentric

For Burgundy, I believe you can take a TGV from Paris to Dijon. Once there you can rent a car, drive to Burgundy and Provence, returning it at the Avignon station and taking the TGV back to Paris.

A place we stayed last year is adding rooms (had only three) including a couple of apartment-type accommodations. It's in Puligny-Montrachet, just south of Beaune. Very charming small village, great hosts right in the middle of white Burgundy heaven. We are returning this year.

www.domainedesangespuligny.com

With that large a group, you may find a car actually saves money compared to trains everywhere, which I agree you really can't do.

Echnaton

Eurocentric, you have a clever idea - but it is that Epernay leg that disturbs. Maybe they can do Epernay just as daytrip by train from Paris and visit a winery or two in Epernay.

After their stay in Paris, they take the train to Dijon or Beaune, pick up their car and follow my proposed itinerary with two added days.