steve1956

My daughter and I are planning our first trip to Italy and want to do a lot of food related activities such as food tours, cooking classes, etc. We do not have an interest in history or art or museums. Most interested in food, shopping, local culture and mingling with the locals and going to non tourist activities. We also want to visit places that will be different enough from each other in terms of scenery, culture, etc. I am almost 60 and she is 30. I don't want to feel rushed. My son thinks we really need to go to Amsterdam too. He thinks I would love the shopping there so I am trying to figure out a way to add Amsterdam to the itinerary.

I am wanting to know what you think of this itinerary:
We fly into London and stay 3 nights
Fly to Venice and stay 3 nights
Train to Cinque Terre and stay 2 nights
Train to Florence and stay 4 nights
-while in Florence take one full day tour into Tuscany- Siena, San G and Pisa (wine and food)
-another day take a food tour of Florence and the market and take a cooking class in the evening
- that leaves about one day in Florence with no plans
Train to Bologna and stay overnight and next day take an all day tour of cheese factory, balsamic factory and prosciutto factory. Stay overnight and leave for Paris the next day
Fly to Paris and stay 3 nights.

Do you think this gives us enough variety of places to see and things to experience? Does it seem rushed? Do you think we could just as well take a cooking class in Venice and cut a day or two off of Florence so we can go to Amsterdam? OR would it just be too rushed to add Amsterdam? I have never been to Europe before and might not ever go again so any help is greatly appreciated. Linda in Austin, TX

tasmangirl

I want to come with you! I am planning something like this in 2017 as I love Italian food and cooking as well. I would add in Rome as you are so close to it rather than Amsterdam.
Or chose between London and Amsterdam. What sort of shopping is so great there?
I am in New Zealand and have not been to Italy (yet!) so will read other replies with interest.

greg

Do the food related activities include eating? I don't see that prominently listed.

While I like sea food in Venice, I didn't think Venice was a culinary capital. Venice has arts, museums, and architecture which are not listed as your interest.

The culinary powerhouse in the area of your visit is Emilia Romagna, but you are spending only one full day? While Tuscany is well known to visitors, I thought the food in Bologna, Parma, and Modena were more traditional and not as influenced by mass tourists visiting Florence, San Gimignano, and Pisa.

I don't know what you are buying in Amsterdam. When I visit Florence, I never fail to stop by at Baroni or Conti deli in Mercato Centrale or Volpetti in Rome to stock up on Italian goodies such as less aged Parmesan cheese sweeter and softer than the kind I cannot buy at home. These delis give you samples of many items which is a fun activity in itself.

You have another posting under different title, which causes responses to get split into two different places. http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...r-a-foodie.cfm

Whathello

The first time we went to Venice we went to 'normal' restaurants. No one restaurant in Venice is for locals only so you get toursisty food and high prices (maybe locals don't).
Last time we went we selected higher end restaurants. It was more expensive (but not so much in relation with other high end restaurants elsewhere in Italy), but at least it was good.
You should buy paperguides about restaurants and/or check chowhound.com

traveller1959

>>mingling with the locals and going to non tourist activities<<

I am afraid I have to say that your itinerary is the typical tourist thing. Especially in Cinque Terre, you will see nothing but hordes of tourists and tour buses. Hard to imagine how you will mingle with locals there. And you will not find culinary experience there beyond thawed lasagna.

If you really want foodie experiences in Italy, go to Piemonte instead. Piemonte was under Savoyan rule for a long time and its cuisine reflects a most productive fusion of Italian and French influences. Besides, Piemonte produces some of the best wines in Italy (Barolo, Asti, Alba), not to speak of truffles (which are served only when in season).

Torino is probably the less touristy city in Italy and it is full of culinary delights. And in the countryside, you find wonderful inns and wineries to visit and taste.

This is one of the best wineries in the region - and certainly non-touristy. You can walk in and ask for a personal tasting (it is free but you are expected to buy a few bottles, not the greatest sacrifice):

http://www.famigliacavallero.com/en/

bilboburgler

Florence with no plans, sounds like a perfect day to me, so much to do so little time

traveller1959

A few words about Venice. Our last visit was in November. Yes, I did extensive research on restaurants in Venice and was not satisfied at all. The reviews on tripadvisor were disappointing, the pictures were not appealing and everyone wrote "it is hard to find a restaurant in Venice that is not overpriced and serves decent food". We did not reserve anything.

And then we walked through Venice. And on Giudecca island, right next the vaporetto stop Palanca, we stumbled upon a small cantina named "Ostaria Ae Botti". It looked appealing to us and we reserved a table for dinner.

I made some interesting observations. The restaurant seemed to be patronized in two shifts. In the first shift, somehow between 18:30 and 20:00, the restaurant was frequented by Americans who stayed in the nearby Hilton hotel. They ordered lasagna and coke and later they write negative reviews. When the Americans leave around 20:00, the locals come and the atmosphere changes totally.

The locals feast. It starts with ordering wine by the bottle. And asking for the daily specials. And ordering several courses. And quickly, you have this mingling with locals. And a memorable culinary experience.

BTW, at Ae Botti, I ordered "raw fish of the day" and was served not less then six Norway lobsters, raw but peeled, and a respectable mound of tuna tartare. DW ordered the cheaper plate of raw salmon, tuna and octopus in lemon marinade. It was fantastic and the bill was reasonable.

At the table next to us, there was an American couple eating lasagna with Coke. When a young local couple was served a sizzling entrecôte, grilled to perfection, on a hot stone plate, they appeared quite jealous. The waiter simply said to them "too late!".

Our second unexpected culinary experience in Venice was in a touristy area, right on the lane that connects Accademia with the Guggenheim. It was a rustic little place called "Al Vecio Forner" and we had a plate of Venetian appetizers. On the plate (which is THE signatory dish in Venice) we found fish, meat, vegetables and carbohydrates. We shared the plate by three and paid €18 for the whole thing. Afterwards, I hade homemade Panzarotti, stuffed with scallops, which was the most expensive pasta dish on the menu (€15) and excellently prepared. And for a bottle of good Venetian white wine they charged €18.

So much for the legend that restaurants in Venice are overpriced and mediocre.

And a final culinary experience, on a much higher level. The Boscolo Venezia is a five star boutique hotel in a historic palazzo which is an attraction in itself. They have a restaurant that serves a five course meal that has been created by the Michelin-star-awarded chef de cuisine of a sister hotel. I have eaten in more than a hundred Michelin-star restaurants, a few with three stars among them, and never before experienced such an explosion of aromas on my tongue. And all this for a fraction of the price I would pay for a similar menu in France.

RJD

When in Venice try Ristorante Al Covo in the Castello. Very classy place with great food and reasonable prices. Here's a link:http://www.ristorantealcovo.com/

sandralist

You are very likely to keep running into the notion that because Piemonte has French influences -- and obviouslly French food is best, right? -- that you should jerk your itinerary around to eat French-influenced food in Itay, not the traditional food of Italy. You are free, of course, to follow that advice if you share that idea, but if you think French cuisine is superior, why not spend more time in France?

Living in Italy as I do, I would say that it is nearly impossible to advise you on an optimal food itinerary without knowing what time of year you are traveling. If you a traveling in summer, many of the best cheese producers don't give tours, and many of the best cooking teachers are not giving classes (for obvious reasons).

However, if you are traveling in summer, than the food and culture of the Italian Riviera might really thrill you (if you like olive oil, seafood, olive oil and vegetables). But le Cinque Terre is a tourist colony, not an experiece of local italian culture. If you relocated yourself just somewhat further north or south of le Cinque Terre on the Italian Riviera (to places like Chiavari or Tellaro), you will have a much better experience of the food and the local culture.

Likewise, if you have no interest in the historic/museum/art sightseeing, I am not sure why you are spending so much time in Florence and the cultural tourist sights of Tuscany, and in particular I don't know why you are taking cooking classes in Tuscany instead of in Emilia-Romagna.

Just in general, your itinerary for Italy is heavy on mega-tourist, non-local experiences and light on food discoveries. If you would like to plan a foodie trip to Italy, two great resources are the Home Food website and the book by Fred Plotkin called Italy for the Gourmet Traveler. Also, begin by understanding that food in Italy is seasonal.

traveller1959

>> not the traditional food of Italy <<

Do you want to say that 4.5 million inhabitants of Piemonte do not eat traditional food of Italy?

That Piemonte is not part of Italy?

That Alba truffles are not traditional food of Italy?

That Barolo and Asti are not traditional wines of Italy?

Oh Sandralist, who are you that you are judging who is a real Italian and who not?

nubbyrose

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nubbyrose

Hi Linda,
My husband and I (we live in San Antonio by the way) took our first trip to Europe in 2012 and visited Florence, Tuscany (small towns) and Rome.

I don't think your trip will be all that enjoyable as currently layed out. Getting from place to place in Europe is not like driving around Texas. It can be really enjoyable and relatively inexpensive but there is a learning curve. Due to all the hotel changes and commuting you will be spending a very significant part of your time dealing with commuting - cabs to/from stations and airports, packing/unpacking, train/plane travel, transportation delays and cancellations, logistics - figuring out how to get where you want to go. Your time in each location is so short you will hardly have any time to get your bearings before it's time to move on.

Your few days in London (assuming it's not cut short by flight delays) will be impacted by jet lag.

I think you can enjoy the trip as planned as long as you understand that the price includes a large investment of time in commuting when you could be enjoying the food and culture.

On our trip to Italy we went to a pasta making class followed by dinner run by a couple that owns an agritourism lodging. This was a very memorable and delicious experience.

I wish you the best and hope that you can figure out a more optimal balance of commuting v. Vacationing.

bilboburgler

Just noticed this "take one full day tour into Tuscany- Siena, San G and Pisa", I hope it has an early start and a late finish. I can think of at least 4 hrs of stuff in Siena to do, Pisa needs a good 4 hrs as well, while St Gim needs a couple of hours to run around the main places. Now add on time to have lunch (fast at one hour but more likely 2 hours) and a couple of coffee stops that makes 12 hours leaving all the rest of the day for the actual travelling.

Now assuming you use via-michelin for the journey rather than the enhanced travel speed that google offers you I can see 8am finishes at 10pm.

traveller1959

Let's talk a bit more about food in Italy.

(I know Sandralist will contradict, but she always contradicts.)

I have been working in Italy and have often eaten together with my Italian colleagues and business partners. You find Italian restaurants everywhere in the world and Italian food in any supermarket in the world. However, food in Italy is often very different from socalled "Italian" food outside Italy.

Just an example: Spaghetti alla Bolognese is not an Italian dish. It "is a dish invented outside of Italy".

Read here: http://www.bolognacookingschool.com/..._bolognese.php

Or another example: In Rome and Naples, nobody would eat pizza for dinner. Pizza is bought at a street stand and eaten like a sandwich.

Let's start with breakfast. Most Italians do not eat breakfast like Americans do. They go to work and on the way, they stop in bar, order a capucchino and eat a piece of sweet pastry while standing at the bar. I have even stayed in hotels in Rome which did not serve breakfast at all.

Coming to lunch and dinner. Especially in southern Italy, everything is eaten in separate courses. In Rome, a proper meal consists of four courses:

1. Antipasti. Usually cold vegetables in oil, often combined with other cold startes like seafood. Often, antipasti are taken from buffets.

2. Pasta or risotto (primo piatto). The second course is the load of carbohydrates and NOT A FULL MEAL. Often, the sauce is very thin and contains hardly any meat or fish. Even if you order, say, pasta alla amatriciana or pasta with ragu, you will get only tiny bits of meat, just to add a little flavour.

3. Meat or fish (secondo piatto). Often, you get nothing else but a piece of meat or fish. If you want vegetables or potatoes with it, a side order is needed.

4. Dessert (dolce).

These four courses are the traditional menu in Southern Italy. In Northern Italy and especially in restaurants which are frequented by tourists, the courses are not so strictly separated.

Now, we are coming to the point that Italy consists of many regions and that culinary traditions are different.

Venice is totally different. For centuries, the Venetians did not consider themselves as Italians, they even felt insulted when addressed as Italians and some of them still do today. So, food in Venice is different. Pizza is for Venetians as alien as for, say, Norwegians (you find it, of course, at every streetcorner, baked by Arabian cooks and sold for tourists). Very typical are the Cichetti, a mixed plate of hors d'oevres, similar to Spanish tapas. Venetian students often eat just a plate of Cichetti for lunch, a light, tasty and inexpensive meal.

Emilia Romagna (around Bologna) is very strong in meat, especially pork. A signature dish is bollito misto, mixed pieces of pork, like knuckle, bacon and sausage. Also the ragu alla bolognese is one of the few pasta sauces which is strong in meat. The cuisine here is rather heavy.

I have written about Piemonte, for me the region with the finest food, which is of course part of Italian cuisine, although the Piemonte is the bordering region of France and influenced by the Savoyans. Certainly the cuisine is more Italian than French, but it has French influences.

In Tuscany, you have more mediterranean influences - olive oil, herbs, beans and more beef instead of the more northern pork.

Wine is usually very cheap when ordered in a restaurant. Always take the wines from the region - they match perfectly with the aromas of the country and of the regional dishes. And they are least expensive. And you will make the waiter happy who is usually proud of his region.

Sandralist will write that everything is wrong what I have written here, but these are my experiences.

Sorry for the mistakes and the typos, English is not my native language.

Boolanger

"Do you think this gives us enough variety of places to see and things to experience?"

The answer to your question is an unqualified Yes! I have not been to Venice so I cannot comment. However, I have been to all the other places you mentioned. Generally I am not one for shopping other than local markets where I buy local cheeses, sausages, wine, spices, bread, almonds, figs, etc.. If this is up your alley, I recommend you find dates, times and locations for the local markets in each of the places you visit. A must for me. While in Florence I do purchased leather goods and fine balsamic vinegar. Look into the Balsamic Traditionale (will cost about 100 Euros)but I also bought some fine 12 and 15 year old Balsamic by Reale which was a fantastic value. You can probably find more choices at better prices in the Bologna area if you have time. If food is important, a bottle of the Balsamic Traditionale is a must to take back home.

Also consider staying at Agritourismo's in the Chianti region for a night or two if you can. Basically a B&B on a small farm. We rented a car which allowed us to go to smaller towns and find non-tourist restaurants offering outstanding lunches and dinners and return easily to our B&B without parking hassles. Don't be surprised if some places offer free wine with your lunch.

While in Paris, you must try a freshly made crepe with Nutella from a street vendor, a pastry of any sort (éclairs with a lavender filling was the GF's favorite) and carry a bag of various cheeses accompanied with fresh croissants while trying to decide where you will have dinner that evening.

traveller1959

>> a freshly made crepe with Nutella <<

There could not be a dish less-Parisian than this. Crêpes are a specialty of Brittany and Nutella is from Ferrero in Piemonte, but came to France via Germany where it has become extremely popular.

tuscanlifeedit

If you come back, we can recommend specific restaurants based on your budget and tastes. As a semi-regular American tourist in Venice, I have a few places that I find to be consistent and delicious.

Boolanger

traveller1959,

Ah, regardless the origin of the Nutella crepes, eating a freshly made hot crepe, folded neatly to carry along as one strolls the streets or parks of Paris is a fond memory indeed. I can only speculate a first time visitor to Paris would enjoy it as well and therefore, I recommend the experience. However, I appreciate the history lesson. Who knew?

Lexma90

If you want a lot of food-related activities, and are not interested in art, history or museums, then I would suggest going to different places in Italy than you have asked about. (Though I have had very good meals in all of the places you mentioned, and I love regional cuisine of all types.)

I would suggest time in Bologna and the Piedmont; other posters have provided lot of helpful advice about those areas. Tuscan food is sometimes characterized as "beige" food, though there are great local dishes there, like everywhere else. I wouldn't try to fit in Amsterdam, especially if it's only for the shopping. For variety, if you want to experience southern Italian cuisine, then add Rome or thereabouts to your itinerary.

To prepare yourselves for a wonderful experience, get Fred Plotkin's "Italy for the Gourmet Traveler," for excellent descriptions of the cuisines and cooking of the various regions of Italy.

jamikins

We are big foodies as well and love non-touristy places with food activities.

I am going to suggest something completely different.

We loved the area around Bologna...Modina is a short train ride and you can visit places that produce real Modina balsamic vinegar. Parma as well, to taste Parma ham from producers. Bologna itself has wonderful food and is a lovely town to visit.

From there, if you are willing to rent a car, you can visit Le Marche. It is a lovely region, with way less tourists than other popular regions. We have spent three plus weeks in this area eating and food touring. It is our favourite region of Italy.

Our pics are here:

https://flickr.com/photos/[email protected]

You can read our trip reports here:

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...t-do-italy.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...rche-lucca.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-le-marche.cfm

Enjoy your planning!