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Italy by Train - Sequence Recommendations

Italy by Train - Sequence Recommendations

Old Jun 18th, 2016, 09:15 AM
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Italy by Train - Sequence Recommendations

HI. My family is traveling to Italy for 17 days in July arriving and departing Milan. In broad strokes, my destinations are:

Verona/Venice
Cinque Terre
Florence
Naples
Rome

I am looking for advice on which sequence makes the most sense for train travel.

Thanks!
jerrymel is offline  
Old Jun 18th, 2016, 09:34 AM
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For starters I'd advise giving Cinque Terre a miss. It will be wall to wall people, you can Google for some images that might give you pause.

Is your flight booked already? It makes better sense to do a multi city ticket where you fly into one and leave from another to avoid backtracking.
For example you could fly into Naples and fly home from Milan if you are planning to actually visit Milan, if not, fly home from Venice. Or the reverse, start in Venice and end in Naples.

Also, how many days were you allocating to each place and do you really have 17 full days or are some of them travel days?

If you already have your flights booked then I would start with your farthest destination which is Naples and work your way back through Rome, Florence and then Venice. There are fast trains between all those destinations.

Is this for July 2016? If so, do you have accommodation booked?
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Old Jun 18th, 2016, 09:41 AM
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I agree about the CT and the open-jaw flight, but not about the order of destinations; Ii would proceed thus:

Milan - Venice - Florence - Naples - Rome - Milan.

That cuts out any over-long journeys, and avoids any train changes mid-journey.

However, it seems to me that you are overloaded with cities, and at the same time are trying to cram in too much. Time by a lake and/or a small town or in the country would make this a much more relaxed and enjoyable trip. However, if this is a trip for 2016, you'll need to get your skates on with booking accommodation especially in big cities.
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Old Jun 18th, 2016, 10:20 AM
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I agree with Annhig's itinerary if you cut out the Cinque Terre, which I recommend. Here is an article, in Italian, with a photo and a very enlightening video.

http://genova.repubblica.it/cronaca/...ti_-123899365/

If you can't bear to cut out the Cinque Terre, I would suggest Milan, Cinque Terre, Florence, Venice, Naples, Rome, Milan.
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Old Jun 18th, 2016, 01:02 PM
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for lots of great info on Italian trains check www.seat61.com- great advice on discounted tickets if you book in stone weeks in advance- can always get walk-up tickets at a much steeper price - if you want flexibility to chose trains once there then the Italy Railpass for such a trip could be a great deal, especially if in first class which I recommend for folks on the trip of a lifetime - for general info check www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com.

www.trenitalia.com is the official site of the Italian Railways for booking though it can be frustrating for novices to get to work.

You are doing a triangle train trip - does not make much difference which way you go - Venice first or Venice last - annhig gives a good itinerary.
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Old Jun 18th, 2016, 01:52 PM
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A railpass won't save you any money on this trip, and it gives you no flexibility, as most of the trains you plan to take have a mandatory reservation, which will cost €10 per train, or all of the trains if you omit the Cinque Terre, in addition to the cost of the railpass.

You can book your tickets for all of these destinations either at:

http://www.trenitalia.com/tcom-en

or at their competing private rail company that often has better prices:

http://www.italotreno.it/?sc_lang=en

Or, if you have trouble with these sites, you can try this US reseller of Trenitalia (but not Italo) tickets:

https://www.italiarail.com/

These tickets are sold in $ not in €, and they don't have a great exchange rate, so they may cost about 5% more. Sometimes they cost less for several people traveling together, because Italiarail will combine tickets in different price categories, while the Italian rail companies won't.

There are excellent discounts available for advance purchase (up to 120 days in advance), but the discounted tickets are not refundable, and are changeable only with a penalty. I wouldn't bother buying tickets in advance for day trips, because you might change your plans at the last minute. Many day trips are on very cheap regional trains, whose prices are fixed, so there's no advantage in buying in advance.

There are some countries in which it's worth splurging on first class, but Italy is not one of those countries. (On its faster trains, Italy has four classes, not two, anyway, something that Palenq keeps forgetting. Executive class would probably be a real splurge, but it costs about four times the price of Standard class, so I'm not going to be trying it.) On its newer trains, Trenitalia has halved the number of higher-class carriages, so the one advantage these carriages may have had, which is fewer fellow passengers, will now be less of an advantage.

Sometimes, because of the discounted fare structure, you can get a seat on a higher class for about the same price as 2nd/standard class, and that's the only time I ride a higher class. This summer, Trenitalia is offering an automatic upgrade to a higher class on some trains, so many summer travelers will be able to judge for themselves.
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 08:52 AM
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Such great and thoughtful responses! Thank you all so much! I had been on the fence about CT. No longer. After the comments and, in particular the link to the article with the picture from bvlenci, I am convinced. Plus, as annhig commented, it is simply too much.

Now to answer some of the other questions so I can continue to receive such quality advice;

Flights: I tried the open-jaw approach and ended up hung up on that for the longest. Then a special came up on AA (where I have status and get upgrades), for non-stops from Miami (my home base) to Milan for $900 RT. Since all the open-jaw options had involved at least one stop and were at least twice the price I couldn't resist. So that's why I am in and out of Milan.

# Days: To compensate for the flights, I added a couple of days to my itinerary. So instead of 14 days we have 17. To be exact, we arrive the morning of July 5 and depart the morning of July 21. Removing the 21st as a full travel day, that leaves us 16 days.

Accommodations: This is where I, admittedly, am still very behind, and once my itinerary is finalized I will turn my full attention to it. Indeed, in the last 24 hours I have made arrangements for the first three nights, but nothing beyond that so far. Your suggestions will determine what I do next, including whether or not I keep what I have made.

Night 1: Milan - I had not honestly planned on including Milan much in the itinerary based on things I've read, but, having travelled quite a bit to Europe, I know that first day after an overnight trip can be a little rough. And even though my two kids are older (17 & 21) not pushing things by jumping on a train straight off the flight seems like a good idea, so I have a Best Western in Milan reserved for us. That day, or the next morning we will see the Duomo and Last Supper but probably not much else.

Nights 2-3: Verona - even though it's not on a lot of itineraries, my 17-year old daughter is dying to see the scene of her favorite Shakespeare work, and I have a friend that raves about the place. On top of that, may thought was to spend a Day 2 on a day trip to Venice and avoid staying in Venice itself. I was even thinking about a third night but will wait to hear comments.

Beyond that I don't yet have any arrangements made.

Remaining itinerary: I will follow the recommended itinerary substituting Verona for Venice, if you all think that's a good idea. I would love to hear from you though how many days I should take in each.

Florence: I would like to take a day, at least, in the countryside in addition to the usual spots in the city, and Siena and Assisi are of some interest. And even though I feel a little guilty including it, taking the family to Pisa is probably something I won't be able to avoid.

Naples: Sorrento, Pompeii, Capri/Amalfi Coast are all of interest if time permits. I've seen some sites recommend staying in Sorrento vs. Naples. Your thoughts on which one to stay in and how many days?

Rome: Are 5 days/4 nights too many here?

Extra night: By cutting CT I ended up with two nights to be allocated elsewhere. I put one in Rome and was considering putting the other in either Verona or Florence. I also thought about splitting 4 nights in Florence into two in Florence and two in Siena.

Left out stops: Besides dropping CT, I wish there was time for Bologna, Lake Cuomo and more of the north, but less is more, right?

Train Travel: Thanks for the advice PalenQ and bvlenci regarding where to get tickets as well as how and when. One place I did not see mentioned was internal.eu where they have offers for 87 euros for 8 travel days in a month period per person, or 127 euros for the same 8 days, but with the ability to do advance e-ticket reservations.

Sorry to be so long-winded but I wanted to cover everything and continue taking advantage of your generous advice if possible. After this trip I look forward to being able to do the same for someone.

Thanks!
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 09:58 AM
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That was a good price on tickets!
If you really want to see the Last Supper you should get onto that asap as tickets can be hard to get. You are limited to 20 minutes to view the painting.

In March I did a Last Supper tour with Walks of Italy, it included going up to the roof of the Duomo which was fantastic, we also walked through the charming Brera district and went to the Castle. The docent was very good and we had time outside the Last Supper for him to give us a lot of details about the painting which really enhanced the viewing of it.
This might be a no brainer way for you to see a little of Milan on a day when you will likely be tired/jet lagged.
www.walksofitaly.com

I don't think your nights in Rome are too many, there is a lot to see there and don't forget it will be very hot. Our first trip to Rome we had six nights, it was the third week of June and very hot so we tended to get up and out early, then back to the hotel mid afternoon for a nap.

Normally I would say it is nicer to stay right in Venice but since the trip is coming up soon I think the nicer hotels will be booked already. I think you could have a nice long day trip to Venice from Verona.

Is there something in particular you want to see in Florence? I love Florence and just spent a week and a half there in March but July in Florence would be my idea of hell. It will be very very crowded and it gets really hot.
If you really must go there this time I recommend staying at the Villa Olmi which is in Bagno a Ripoli about 7 kms outside Florence. They run a shuttle into the city or you can get a taxi. It is a lovely hotel with a swimming pool and gardens.
My husband and I stayed there mid October in 2014, Florence was pretty crowded then too and it was warm enough that we swam in the pool.

I would not split up your time between Florence and Siena, too much moving around as it is.
I have thoughts about your Naples question too but will have to get back to this later.
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 11:26 AM
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well, thank YOU for taking our suggestions on the chin - and in the spirit in which they are meant which is kindly. and what a great deal on the air fares - well done!

I think that your first 3 nights are fine, and it's an excellent idea to get them booked now. Where I part company with you is with where to go next, which for me just has to be Venice. IMO it is not a good place for day trips especially in the summer when during the day it is mobbed by, well, day trippers. Stay overnight and you begin to understand its magic. so factoring that in, I would suggest this:
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 11:27 AM
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Day 1 arrive and sleep Milan.

Day 2 - train to Verona, stay 2 nights.

Day 4 - train to Venice, stay 2 nights.

Day 6 - train to Florence - stay 3 nights [day trip to Siena on the bus, possible afternoon/evening trip to Pisa]

Day 9 - train to Naples; stay there or carry on to Sorrento [see the current thread discussing their relative merits or start your own] 4 nights

Day 13 - train to Rome. Stay 3 nights. not long enough, but nothing is, so make the most of what you can get.

Day 16 - train to Milan. Stay 1 night.

Day 17 - fly home.
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 11:28 AM
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ps -does 17 days mean 16 nights? or 17? even 18? - you need to know when booking hotels!

I'm sure others can improve on that, but it may give you a few ideas about what's possible. Have fun planning.

PS - do your daughters know about the film about the letters people send to Juliet, which are answered by a special office in Verona - it's called Letters to juliet!


PPS - sorry about the multiple sections - fodors wouldn't let me post it all at once.
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 01:55 PM
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I tried to find that internal.eu which seems to have such good prices on train tickets, but can't find it. The link doesn't work, and a Google search brings up nothing similar. Did you mean interrail? If so, that's only available to residents of the participating countries. Actually, to use the Italian pass, you have to live in one of the other participating countries; you can never use it in your own country.
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 02:17 PM
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Still lots of hotels available in Venice, don't despair. I just booked three nights for two teens and two adults in a two bedroom at Antico Doge where we've stayed before. I like it because it is somewhat removed from the crowds, in a neighborhood where local kids play, or used to when we were last in Venice.
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 02:26 PM
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Actually, to use the Italian pass>

Your itinerary is the rare one that may benefit from an Italy Railpass - especially if you want to be able to chose which trains to take once there- a string of discounted tickets may be a tad cheaper or may not be - the more days you buy on the Italy Pass the cheaper per day it becomes - you still must of course pay 10 euros on the fastest trains for the mandated seat reservation, which does come with discounted tickets, which are train specific and cannot be changed or refunded I believe.
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 02:36 PM
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Letters to Juliet is a cute movie ann! I agree with you about Venice, my concern is that at this late stage will there be any decent accommodation left in Venice?

We liked Naples but with such a short time I think I would choose Sorrento, a hotel with a pool if possible so you can do a little relaxing as well. The kids might be ready for that at that stage too!
From Sorrento you could do day trips to all of the other places you mentioned.

We spent six nights at the Hotel Mediterraneo in Sorrento, well, technically it is in Sant'Agnello but it all blends together. It was an easy and enjoyable 15 to 20 minute walk to the centre of Sorrento or the hotel runs a shuttle.
Our room had stunning views of the bay of Naples, it was such a pleasure to wake up in the morning and see that.
The hotel has a pool with snack bar/cafe, a large garden/lounging area and a bathing platform on the sea with an elevator to take you down.
www.hotelmediterraneo.com
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 02:37 PM
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Marija, good to know about Venice hotels.
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 02:46 PM
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I neglected to mention that I was booking for mid July, so not much lead time.
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Old Jun 19th, 2016, 07:03 PM
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>>>That day, or the next morning we will see the Duomo and Last Supper but probably not much else.>>One place I did not see mentioned was internal.eu where they have offers for 87 euros for 8 travel days in a month period per person, or 127 euros for the same 8 days, but with the ability to do advance e-ticket reservations.
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Old Jun 20th, 2016, 10:30 AM
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>>>One place I did not see mentioned was internal.eu where they have offers for 87 euros for 8 travel days in a month period per person, or 127 euros for the same 8 days, but with the ability to do advance e-ticket reservations.

An Interrail Pass for 11 euros a day - naw that don't seem right - nothing that cheap for any railpass IME.
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Old Jun 21st, 2016, 05:54 AM
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Thanks again, everyone. I have been reading and re-reading your posts as I continue to make arrangements and make difficult decisions.

Auto-correct caught me off guard and my intention WAS to type interrail.com, but as aptly pointed out, this pass is only for EU citizens. I would need Eurail but am also looking at the Italy Railpass and comparing to buying the individual tickets in advance if I set the itinerary in stone.

I am counting the travel time into the 16 days I will be there, but just being optimistic that the first day arrival in Milan being 10 AM, we can still do one of the 3 hour city tours in the afternoon. However, as pointed out, getting tickets to the Last Supper is challenging at this late date. It can be done via tours, but so far they are far too expensive (400 euros for the four of us plus 120 euros for the Last Supper passes). So that has got me thinking about either:

a) Canceling my stay in Milan and pushing straight through to Verona saving a night to add to Florence or Rome later, or

b) Just doing one of Walking tours of Milan the afternoon of arrival and departing early for Verona Day 2.

I'm leaning towards Option A because it eliminates an in-country travel day and frees up an additional night either for Florence or Rome. But we will be pretty exhausted when we arrive Verona Day 1 after a red eye flight and the train ride.

Suggestions welcome and, if Option A, whether the additional night should be Florence or Rome. I am leaning towards Florence just because the time there seems too short. I hear the comments about the crowds and the heat, but 1) We are festival concert veterans so no strangers to the crowds and, 2) We are from Miami so the heat is our friend most of the year. Our biggest adaptation will be wearing pants and shoes versus sandals and shorts so as not to stand out.

Day Date Activity Sleep
1 5-Jul-16 Arrive Milan Milan
2 6-Jul-16 Milan to Verona Verona
3 7-Jul-16 Verona Verona
4 8-Jul-16 Verona to Venice Venice
5 9-Jul-16 Venice Venice
6 10-Jul-16 Venice to Florence Florence
7 11-Jul-16 Florence (Pisa) Florence
8 12-Jul-16 Siena Florence
9 13-Jul-16 Florence to Naples Naples
10 14-Jul-16 Sorrento Naples
11 15-Jul-16 Capri or Almafi Coast Naples
12 16-Jul-16 Vesuvio and Pompeii Naples
13 17-Jul-16 Naples to Rome Rome
14 18-Jul-16 Rome Rome
15 19-Jul-16 Rome Rome
16 20-Jul-16 Rome to Milan Milan
17 21-Jul-16 Fly Home N/A

I also hear the comment on limiting the stays to four, but just don't see how unless I cut out Verona completely. Doing that and Pushing through to Venice immediately after landing Milan would be the only way, but considering staying in Milan the night before we fly out we are still at 5.

Continued comments welcome!
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