Is traveling in Europe really THAT much more expensive than in North America?

There have been a few recent threads of this, some detouring into totally different discussions. I think you can plan any trip within a reasonable budget. (The hard part is sticking to the budget.)

HI NN,

It is much cheaper for me to spend a week in Paris than in NYC, including airfare.

In general, you can visit Europe for about the same cost as staying in the US, for similar itineraries.

Where are you planning to visit?

Thanks, Jean and ira.

Ira, I don't have a definite time frame for traveling at this time, but I would love to get back to Italy this year. I was getting discouraged, though, after reading the thread about the high cost of European travel preventing some people from returning.

It appears, though, that the costs aren't really that much greater than for some closer locales. Definitely pricey but -- with willingness to sacrifice some things -- I might as well plan on going to Italy (my first choice) than elsewhere. How's that for rationalization?

I don't think anyone talking about those costs was comparing tours or packages, they were talking about doing it on their own. If you see a price that is the same, that's your bottom line (although airfare will cost more, of course, to Europe).

Since I'm American, I wouldn't even consider taking a tour package when I travel in the US, so I actually have never looked at one, but I suspect they would stay at more expensive hotels and charge for food (if it's included) at a much higher rate than people usually would spend on their own. I might be wrong on that, I just think a tour package wouldn't stay at a Red Roof Inn or Comfort Inn that much in the US, or eat at IHOP or cheaper local ethnic restaurants, but you could easily do that on your own when you travel.

OMG, ira. If what you say is true, I will be forced to go Paris soon to save some money, since I'm already in NYC!

I don't keep totals of my expenses, but I believe that my Hawaii trips are the most expensive. Partly because I stay at 4*-5* resorts, but that is just part of the vacation. In Europe I stay at 2*-3* hotels and I love every minute of it!

NoleNomad, you can have a wonderful trip to Italy without breaking the bank if you stay out of the big cities. But by that I don't mean picking Portofino instead of Venice. I mean smaller, less tourist-swamped towns which still have access to good public trans. Finding these towns requires a good map of Italy and research into train and bus service. Keep in mind that apartments are almost always cheaper than hotels and offer the ability to keep dining costs within your budget. The toughest cost to control is the air fare

A lot depends on where you are talking about in the States.

Some rural areas of the US have very cheap accommodations. But in general - from the west coast I can do London/the UK cheaper than NYC or Wash. DC. I can do Paris cheaper than Atlanta or Hawaii.

I can do SF/Carmel cheaper - but only because I can drive there. If I had to fly in long haul, Italy or England or Scotland would cost less than coastal California.

HI NN,

>I might as well plan on going to Italy (my first choice) than elsewhere. <

I think that that is a very good, well-reasoned, cost-beneficial plan.

For lower budget, consider Umbria, Les Marches, Sicily and the deep South down near the bottom of the boot.

Enjoy your visit.
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Hi BS,

Definitely. Think how much you will save not commuting on the subway each day.

I believe Europe has gotten out of hand, cost-wise, to the extent I don't plan on going back anytime soon. For now, there is plenty to see and do in the U.S. with far better deals to be had and that is where my money will be going until and unless the dollar strengthens.

In years past, I've tried to make it to Europe every other year, alternating with cheaper (but invariably more luxurious due to cost savings on airfare) stateside trips. Now, when I think what I can do in the states for the kind of money it takes to travel Europe in a modicum of style these days, I just can't justify it anymore. For example, a recent trip to Amsterdam made Manhattan, which was a previous year's travel destination, seem (relatively) reasonable in comparison.

I only think that Scandinavia has gotten truly out of hand. And, when I say out of hand, I mean prepare to spend $50+ per person for very ordinary meals, without booze. $15-$20 for ordinary takeout, per person. Any sort of shopping will see at least a 25-50% premium over the US. Fresh-cut flowers are cheap though.

London is expensive, but there are enough deals on flights and hotels (use priceline) that at least the basics are affordable. Nice restaurants get expensive very quickly. Shopping is expensive, even if the selection is spectacular.

The rest is affordable enough if you follow basic saving strategies and don't shop too much.

The USA has at last become affordable! For many years Europe was a much cheaper destination for Australians, but the USA is now in the picture. Now, if OUR dollar keeps appreciating against the US$ till it reaches parity or better, then the US will be dramatically cheaper. Because of the currency situation, I haven't been to the USA for about ten years, but another trip is on the cards.

I think part of peoples perception that Europe is so expensive now is that they are comparing it to travel there when "Europe on $5.00 a Day" was a popular travel guide it was actually possible to do it for that.

For the past few years, we've traveled for a couple months in Europe and a couple months in the US. Our style of travel is similar in both. There is no doubt that our stays in LA, Chicago,San Francisco, and particularly New York are considerably MORE expensive than our stays in Rome, Madrid, Venice, Paris, etc. London is the only city that seems to equal in cost New York for us.

I'm not well travelled to Europe (only been there once), but have travelled in many areas of the U.S. Even allowing for "budget" hotels in the U.S., we found our stay in Europe to be no more than those in the U.S. and in some instances an even better bargain. It was just the "getting there" which was prohibitively expensive. That stated, my daughter and I are planning to go back again this summer. We're just hoping for a miracle in the airfare costs!

It kind of depends on how you expect to travel, where and when and what you're comparing it to.

Everyone seems to throw out NYC as their example for the US, although that's really only a good comparison, I think, if the Euro alternative is London, Paris, Rome and similarly expensive. (in which case, Paris wins, the rest seem to be neck-and-neck)

Otherwise, you can't compare small town Spain to a NYC visit. Tastes matter, of course, but remote Andalusia comes a lot closer in speed to the Ozarks than it does to New York City. And prices reflect that on both sides of the Atlantic. For instance, a traditional hotel in Ronda in April - about 90€ a night for a very nice, traditional, big but not flashy room in a historic building. Right in the old center. Perfect for us, but not the 4 Seasons. Meals were reasonable around there, but you could certainly spend more than the bistro type eating we prefer. No, I am not saying that Andalusia and the Ozarks are similar, before anyone comes back with that. I'm saying they're both rural, picturesque and cheap.

It comes down to what you like really and what is most important to sacrifice - style or destination type. The Ozarks are not Andalusia. NYC is not Rome. And vice versa. Personally, we're also hitting some places right now that are neither Europe or the US, as we have a list that already went beyond those two areas and now seems a good time to look for values. So for us, it doesn't have to be either/or.

Many people are not willing or able to adjust the way they travel to the local customs.

When I was traveling in the States for the first couple times, I felt very weird when I showed up at a Best Western motel or similar with a coupon for a discounted stay, or asked for a AAA discount. Or if I used a coupon at a retail store. My friends told me over and over again that almost everybody is clipping coupons and hunting bargains, but I needed a while to adjust.

Having said that, there is a multitude of options to cut down on costs (excluding airfare, where just have to get lucky).
In Southern European countries, you can rent a great vacation homes, often restored country houses sitting in a vineyard in Tuscany, or a bit off the coast in Southern Spain. Depending on season, you can rent for as little as €200 a week (not per day), if you go off-season to Southern Spain. Add another €100-150 for a rental car per week to explore the towns you'd usually stay in. Get some groceries from the markets, or fresh fish from the harbour, and prepare every 2nd dinner at home, and so on.

But if your heart is set on a trip that will take you from city hotel to city hotel, and from restaurant to restaurant (all of them in a central, historical city centers, of course), you will have to dig deeper and harder for less expensive options.

"But if your heart is set on a trip that will take you from city hotel to city hotel, and from restaurant to restaurant (all of them in a central, historical city centers, of course), you will have to dig deeper and harder for less expensive options."

This is where I lost you. Do you mean in the US or in Europe? Oh -- never mind. Of course, you mean BOTH.
Yes, the answer to the original question could be there are ways to save either place, but basically comparing similar types or style of travel in Europe to similar types or style of travel in US will end up costing very little if any difference.

Thanks to all. You have pretty much confirmed my suspicions. Time to start planning for Italy!

You know I hate to be the contrarian here but when London gets to be as "cheap" as new York would someone let me know?

OK, Dukey, I'm letting you know.

We did a month in New York this past May/June. Then we did 10 days in London. We had a real deal on an apartment by the month in NYC and spent quite a lot for our flat short term in London. But ignoring the housing (which many people seem to indicate can be priced comparatively between the two cities) our expenses were pretty much identical in both cities. We find we do pretty much the same type "local, but central" restaurants in both and find the prices very similar, do the same amount of theatre in both, and take the same type of public transportation in both. My usual Pret and Manger for coffee and a snack in the morning is cheaper than Starbucks, Cosi, or World Cafe (?) for the same in NYC. Museums are expensive in NYC and we did a lot of them. They are mostly free in London and we did a lot there too. Theatre used to be so much cheaper in London than NYC, but now they are quite similar (although we have much better luck in London getting half price tickets to shows we want to see and without much in fee addons). Otherwise we find little to no difference in the two in terms of cost.

NeoPatrick..

Yes, I would second your assessment that a city-to-city tour can or will be as costly in the US as in Europe.
I wonder how much the price tag (excl. airfare) on a 10-12 day trip would be if you only stayed in nice 4* hotels in NYC, DC, Boston, Chicago, SF, a cool lodge in Carmel or Bar Harbor, and one at the Grand Canyon, Las Vegas on a weekend plus a show, etc.

Cowboy1968: Except that those 4* hotels will be of a higher standard in the US than in Europe. And, while I agree that most of the essentials (lodging, transport, meals, excursions) are priced similarly, if one does any shopping, they will definitely pay more in Europe than in the US.

Depends where you go. And if you are talking about organized tour groups (which seemed to be the point of our post) or independent traveling.

A recent thread here on this topic had someone compare their week at Disneyworld versus a week in the countryside of Italy. Essentially the.. same $.

yeah, but a week at Disneyworld isn't remotely the same kind of vacation as a week in the countryside of Italy. The proper comparison would have been a week in the countryside in the US. I remember some old thread on that, and I think the costs were distorted because the person was staying in deluxe hotels in Disneyland, renting a car, etc, and then going budget in Europe. My sister cannot afford expensive vacations and did a budget one to Disneyworld (her kid liked it) and it was really cheap. She did not rent a car and did not stay in deluxe hotels, and got real cheap airfare to Florida from Ohio. She never could have done a vacation to Europe for that money.

I think costs are a little higher in Europe, actually, on vacation for comparable things, but not a whole lot. Airfare is one of the biggest chunks of European vacation costs, of course, outside those costs. I pay more for drinks and food in Europe, a bit, and museum fees seem to be higher there (not that this is a big chunk of budget, but still).

"The proper comparison would have been a week in the countryside in the US."

And this is the point isn't it? Take this quote, for example (not trying to single anyone out, sorry):

"For instance, a traditional hotel in Ronda in April - about 90€ a night for a very nice, traditional, big but not flashy room in a historic building."

I have never spent $130 for a hotel room in anything other than a major city in the US. And even in many major cities, you can find bargains that you won't find in Europe, particularly if you use Priceline.

I have found Europe to generally be a better bargain than the EQUIVALENT in the US. For example - comparing vacations in Andalucia Spain and the Southeast Coast of the US. Both are in very warm climates, making spring their "high" seasons. Last March I went to Seville and Granada - mid size cities - not small rural areas, but not major cities either. My hotel rooms were about 65€ (at todays rates $95) - smack in the historic city centers. This coming March I am going to Charleston and Savannah - also mid size cities with historic centers. Hotels in the city centers are at least twice that much. Yes you can find cheaper rates at other times of the year, but the same is true of Spain. And yes you can stay for less at a chain hotel 20 minutes drive from the city center, also the same is true in Spain. So comparing "apples to apples", Europe comes out ahead.

Comparing London to NY - again, I've found London wins. I've stayed at a very nice litle hotel, in central London for £46 a night. Please tell me where I can find a clean, safe, ensuite hotel room in Manhattan for under $100 (including full breakfast).

I dont know if a lot of us would spend a week in New York City for a vacation so its really hard to make that comparison. I do think that many cities in the US might be a quite a bit cheaper for lodging and for meals than in Eurpoe. Certainly cheaper than London for sure.
However, I am going to Spain in two weeks and I was delighted to find a website called menudeldia.com that lists many restaurants with their menu of the day that includes a three course meal +
a beverage averaging about 10 euro or 15 dollars a day. This is for the midday meal so dinner is more expensive. This is an exceptional value. Some places had 8 euro menus.
We plan not to spend more than $1000 for the week on lodging and meals for the two of us. I think this is reasonable. This will be our third trip to euroland in the past two years. Each time the dollar has weakened. As much as we love Europe, we might just explore more of South and Central America for a foew years. The dollar has to improve! This downward spiral cannot last for years.

Last year we spent 115 euros/night for three people in a very centrally located 2BR apartment in Rome. I certainly cannot imagine finding a comparable deal in NYC or Boston. I thought inexpensive food was somewhat harder to find in Rome but we had the option of cooking for ourselves if we wanted to save. Public transportation there is very affordable and if you stay in a central location you can walk to most of the major sites.

travelgourmet, I don't mind you singling my post out. You're right, we could have easily paid less for a room in Ronda. Wouldn't have been the same thing of course, a more plain-jane room on the outskirts of town would have been much more affordable and almost as convenient.

So four poster beds, fireplace and a few amenities, but still very Spanish seemed nice. It was to be our first day in Spain, having just spent a few weeks in Morocco in much more budget accommodation (and not knowing at booking time how that was going to feel by the time we got to Spain.). So a bit of a treat, but - still very reasonable for the type of place that it was and I can't imagine the same room in the center of a historic US would be any cheaper. Which is what I was getting at.

I think the point to be made is that a generalization that Europe is expensive and USA is cheap can be incorrect. Similarly, recent threads about the value of the euro have now made Europe out of reach are...incorrect. It's all a matter of what your expectations are, and being willing to adjust them.

I can get a hotel in non-central Paris cheaper/comparable than the suburbs of Chicago. I can also get (better) meals cheaper than that suburb. Flights...tougher, but going off-season and during the week, I can make that gap reasonable. So...should I go to the suburbs of Chicago this year or Paris?

I find this a very fascinating thread. I think there are a few points that haven't been mentioned yet...

1) A lot depends on your family size. In Europe, most budget hotels charge per person. So, 2 adults + 1 child in a room pay for 3 people (there are some exceptions - Novotel being a good one, but they tend to be more expensive). In the US children stay for free at most budget hotels.

2) I've seen the Lon vs. NYC comparisons, and I just don't get it. Lon is incredibly expensive. I find that in *general* what you would pay for in US $ in NYC you pay for in Pounds in Lon.

3) Regardless of anything else, the US $ has been falling, so a European trip is more expensive now than in the past. It wasn't that long ago the US $ and Euro were at parity. Now it varies between $1.40 and $1.45.

4) As many have said, airfare to Europe is really expensive now. That must be factored into any trip.

5) Finally, to the OP, for my family of 5 I find the cost of a European trip to be too expensive right now. We live in the midwest, and the cost of airfare for us going to the west coast is roughly 1/2 of the cost of us going to Europe.

6) I lied, this is the final point Someone else mentioned Disney vs. Europe. We did 8 days in Disney (on a budget - rented a villa, only ate in a restaurant 1 day, etc.) for 7 people last November. We also did Holland and Belgium for 6 days with 6 people in July, again on a budget (eating mostly street food or at local restarants, budget hotels, etc.). The Disney trip was 15% cheaper. This was when the Euro was $1.35...

Kevin

"I've seen the Lon vs. NYC comparisons, and I just don't get it. Lon is incredibly expensive. I find that in *general* what you would pay for in US $ in NYC you pay for in Pounds in Lon."

With the exception of lodging, I agree with this. And I am a pretty frequent visitor to both places. Of course, lodging is such a big component that I'm not sure how it would all net out.

I think you can travel quite cheaply to London with a bit of planning and care. Hotels on priceline - I will be paying $100 per night including taxes. Travel passes are reasonable and the public transport system is very good. Food - cheap meals in pubs etc., sandwich shops, supermarkets, snack bars. Sightseeing - walking around the parks, squares etc. Museums - fantastis and free.
Sure it's not the cheapest city but you can have a reasonably priced trip.

To get away from the city comparisons, this is what I spend on an average day in Greece: 3 rooms - simple, clean, private bathrooms, directly on beach = 80euro per day, snack lunch and soft drinks for 4 people = 20 euros, evening meal with wine, beer and water in nice taverna (4 people)= 60 euros, drinks in bar after dinner, snacks, newspaper etc. = 40 euros. Total = 200 euro per day, or about $130.

I think we will all find comparisons that can prove either point of view.

Comparing the Tuscany countryside or Provence in July to the countryside of Kansas does not make much sense, IMO. If you start comparing it with the Maine countryside (or better, seaside) during foliage, or a weekend in Sedona, or on a dude ranch in WY, you will get another picture. Since few of us will agree on what will be a proper comparison, this may lead nowhere.

Shopping is rather hard to compare, since some people don't get more than the usual souvenirs, while others raid Prada or Gucci. Most of us will probably be somewhat in between.

Another issue is transportation. Many visitors from overseas enjoy to take the train, and there is nothing to say against it. But you will find the majority of European travelers (when longer distances have to be covered) lining up at the counters of Ryanair, Easyjet or others. Chain motels like Etap, or anything else from the less fancy sections of Accor will let you sleep on a budget even in Paris - but not with a view of Notre Dame.

I would never go so far and pretend that you could travel in grand style across Europe like 5 years ago, and pay less than in the U.S.

Carolina, were you quoting USD? If so, 200 euro is about $290.

To others who have mentioned Priceline, this is an option for solo or two people traveling together. It is *much* more difficult to do this with a family. Location is more important and not all hotel will allow a child in the room (or, in London, even have space for it).

"It is *much* more difficult to do this with a family."

Only if you are looking for 3+ people in a room. But this will be a premium, whether you use Priceline or not. For a family that wants 2 rooms, Priceline is still as viable of an option as anything else.

Travelgourmet, you are proving my point. In the US, there is usually not a price difference for 2 people vs. 2 people + a child in a hotel room. In Europe you either need to pay for a triple or get 2 rooms.

So, 2 rooms on Priceline in Europe > 1 room on Priceline in the US

alyssamma: I get you now. And, I think I am on your side. Without saying that Europe, writ large, is 'so expensive' I really can't grasp the arguments that it is as cheap or cheaper than the US - New York lodging being the only exception.

Yeah, my situation is a family of 5. My wife and I have been to Europe many times and in the past couple of years have started taking our kids + parents. However, this year we are headed south (probably Mexico City) because it is just too expensive.

Eastern Europe is actually still a *great* deal and is far cheaper than anything you'll find in the US. The only catch is getting good airfare there But Budapest, Croatia, Romania, Turkey etc. all offer excellent value for the $.

alyssamma, I stand corrected. We usually spend between $200 - $300 per day for everything. I had a long day yesterday with son with chickenpox, so please forgive mistake.
I am not saying Europe is cheap, just that it is possible to travel reasonably well on a budget. $300 for 4 people in 3 rooms, all meals and drinks, in high season on a Greek island seems pretty reasonable to me - but certainly not as much so as a few years ago!
Priceline - for 4 of us, I book 2 rooms, whether in the US or Europe.

We rent the same flat every year in NYC on the upper west side at 81st st and Amsterdam for the US Open Tennis. We pay $950/week and use Zabars and Fairway market for our food.We also get a transit pass for dirt cheap and use the subways and buses all the time. This makes travel to NYC pretty reasonable as we use miles for the flight. Anywhere, including NYC, can be a reasonable destination. Rent a flat rather than spending $350/nite on a terrible hotel. Try pricing decent hotels and see what I mean.

Carolina, no problem...I've been there

And you are correct about the Greek islands...but that is Eastern Europe which is much cheaper than western Europe.

However, like agilepagile said, *anyplace* can be made cheap. But I think that apples to apples Europe is more expensive than the US, but *only* because of the recent fall of the $. A few years ago, say when the euro was $1.20 it was more equal. But prices today are 20% more because of the exchange rate. That takes a toll

In general I think hotels in Europe are cheaper compared to the ones in the US -- at least it seems easier to find a centrally located hotel for less than $100. In the US it's more difficult.

The exchange rate is making things more expensive. On a recent trip I noticed how expensive my meals were. I was only away for two nights, and one night I had a snack in the Baden Baden train station and then had a meal on the TGV from Strasbourg to Paris. It was probably around 18 euros or so for the two combined. So that's about $25!

The night before I had dinner at Tokyo Eat in Paris. It was probably around 30+ euros, so close to $50. I had a drink, an appetizer and a main course.

I live in NYC, and meals here aren't cheap. But I know a lot of cheap options because I live here.

I think that the weak dollar is something that's hard to escape. But if money is an issue I think that there's room to cut in many parts of the budget -- stay in a cheaper hotel than you're used to, for example.

We were going to go to Florida in April to visit my family for Passover and use a companion ticket for one of the airfares...of course there was a blackout date for the companion ticket...Turned out airfare was $768 pp so I said "no way, not when I can wait a few months and go to Florida for $200 + or -. I find Florida during high season more expensive then Europe - you must rent a car, pay for parking per night at most hotels, and breakfast is rarely included and always overpriced at hotels. So, instead we are going to Istanbul for 10 days in April, we got one ticket with FF Miles and airfare was just a bit more than Florida, we'll stay at an apartment hotel and make our breakfast and eat out for dinner. We'll head to Florida in August.

Last year we rented an apartment in Italy for a week in February - for four people and it was much less than the cost of a hotel. Again we got one ticket with a FF ticket (had to change in Paris and that was a bit of a drag) but we were able to keep air cost down for our family of three. We did not find the cost of food too high and enjoyed eating breakfast at our own leisure. We are vegetarian and we found that eating out in Rome was quite reasonable - we are from NYC so it was not any sticker shock. Our motto for shopping is only buy something that is unique and what you can't buy back in NYC -and we do have budget's.

Apartments or budget hotels are a great option for touring Europe. Staying in one location for an extended time with a day trip instead of a lot of train or air travel between locals is another way to cut costs. Get a FFlyer credit card and charge everyting. The miles add up fast.

Risab, where are you flying from? That makes a huge difference in airfare. Also, FL during March is not high season (unless you are going over spring break).

If you are flying from NYC (you said you were from there), I'm not sure where you got $786 from. A quick Orbitz search shows NYC-MIA for $294 non-stop for 3/21-3/24.

Also, for Europe in high season from the US it is not unusual to see airfare of $1000+.

Considering that we have to spend almost $4,000 just for airfare for a family of 4 just to get to Europe...yeah, it's WAAAYYYYYY more expensive!

I have to say though, why would anyone want to go to NYC vs. Paris? My husband can't wait to get OUT of the city every day!

That said, we're not going back to Europe until the dollar regains some strength.

We're going to Costa Rica in 2 weeks, the dollar is still strong there and the nonstop roundtrip airfare for all 4 of us was $1,000 from JFK.

"I have to say though, why would anyone want to go to NYC vs. Paris?"

I really like Paris, but I really don't understand this statement, at all. Both are fantastic cities worth several visits.

My wife and I were in Italy for 3
weeks in October 2007. US Airways from PHL to Rome. We used public transportation including train, bus, and hydrofoil. We spent time in Rome, Naples, Amalfi, Capri, and Sorrento. Our hotels were 3 and 4 star, all included bkfst. We usually had just a small snack for lunch and then a wonderful dinner with a bottle of local wine. I don't believe we could have done the trip in the US cheaper and had
a more wonderful time. If there is an option of US or Italy, i would take Italy in a heart beat.

An alternative to save costs on accommodation is to do a home swap. For London especially (but anywhere in Europe) check out:

http://www.homebase-hols.com

Here are our per day averages for our travel in 2007. Each city is at least a week long stay and the prices (already converted to dollars) includes apartment rental, meals, entertainment, and all miscellaneous (no airfare though), and all figures are a total for the two of us:

New York City: (but remember I said we got a "steal" on an apartment by the month, so this is skewed lower than would be normal) $ 406.35

Rome: $ 380.94

Paris: $ 306.81

Amsterdam: $ 367.44

Venice: $ 362.63

London: $ 583.02 (including two shows almost every day -- therefore way higher than any other city).

<I really like Paris, but I really don't understand this statement, at all. Both are fantastic cities worth several visits.

Hey, we agree!!

Many things in Europe ARE more expensive even without the exchange rate ( like food even at grocery stores....and we lived in an expensive area in the U.S. and live in a cheap area in Europe).

House prices in Spain are insane for what you get.

But monthly rentals are very cheap and we have found charming pensions for very cheap in many places in Europe.

I think the answer depends much on how, where and when you travel.

I have traveled many time to Europe and UK and have found that the cost of living is higher there than here. On our last trip for 2 week to Uk our over all cost was 100% more than before. We never do tours so we can pick and choose what we want to do and where we want to go. We have a place in NH for skiing and have met many europeans on the slopes most from UK they are pleased to come here because everything is so cheap. They fill their bag and even purchase bag to tak all the Cheap stuff home. We are now going to travel the USA.

The things you can and should buy in the US are clothes, shoes, (food processors) and small household items. Electronics are indeed rather expensive in most places in the US. I was shocked to see the high prices at BestBuy compard to the Munich price level.

Anyway the savings on clothes are well worth a short trip to the USA!

TravelGourmet, I was responding to the post comparing NYC to Paris.

Of all the cities I've visited I would say NYC is my least favorite. It's too big, too ugly, too congested, I just don't get the attraction. Charming neighborhoods and worthwhile sights are just too few and far between. Just FYI, I live in a suburb just outside of the city.

Personal preference I guess, the hotel prices are astronomical, I can't understand why anyone would pay so much $$$ to stay in NYC, that's all.

I think it is not right to generalize, in Europe and in the US it depends a lot of the city.
For me , of the places, I like to go Spain is less expensive than some cities of the US>
HOwever the Euro makes it hard because it has rised the priced of every little item in everydays life. For them,and for the tourist.
For a while I will not go to Europe, last time was last year, and instead I keep on going to Buenos Aires and other cities that indeed are much, much less than NY and European cities and at the same time has a lot to offer.

Yes, especially now with the weak dollar. The tour rates to Europe are reasonable, but costs in western Europe have been high for a while and there are just no cheap areas anymore. $1000 US Dollars go very fast there.

"The things you can and should buy in the US are clothes, shoes, (food processors) and small household items. Electronics are indeed rather expensive in most places in the US. I was shocked to see the high prices at BestBuy compard to the Munich price level."

Trust me, whenever we go back to the US, we bring an empty suitcase, the savings on clothes and shoes, in particular can be very substantial.

As for electronics, my understanding is that Germany has a reputation for very low prices on electronics and photo equipment. I have priced electronics in the UK and Denmark and generally find them more expensive than in the US, sometimes substantially so.

Hmmm...I just got back from a trip to Paris and Barcelona (Dec.27-January 5th) and still find Europe incredibly expensive, even with my Canadian dollar being strong right now. (I went to Budapest and Paris in the summer of 2006 and thought it was expensive then too).

Sure, you can do it 'on the cheap' like staying in youth hostels or shared bath hotels...eating french sticks and cheese from the local grocery stores. But we brought our two teens with us this time, so we went the route of basic hotels.

We stayed in a place that was probably equivilant to a Days Inn, but smaller rooms, and paid 230 euro (340 CAD/US) a night per room (we had to have 2 rooms as 4 people are not allowed in 1 room) which I found to be really expensive. Mind you, we stayed centrally (right near the Louvre). I researched hotels extensively, and found this to be the least expensive option for a room with a private bath that wasn't a half hour outside of Paris.

The cost of entrance fees were LESS than those in Canada/US and many options are available in Europe to get discounts. For example, in France, museums are free on the first Sunday of each month and there is also a discount card for entrances to multiple museums. We did a tour of Paris for 4 hours on Segways and paid around $100 per person, which I found reasonable for the knowledge and fun of the Segway (highly recommend it!!).

The cost that I had a hard time dealing with was FOOD!! Again, you can do it cheaply if you stop in and buy your own bread and cheese, but this was not an options with us as we were walking the cities extensively and didn't want to be carrying a bag of food with us ontop of raincoats, camera's etc. So, we stopped in bistro's or cafe's in Paris and in outdoor patio's in Barcelona. We never ordered what we 'really' wanted, because it was just sooo expensive, so we tried our best to order reasonably. Lunch for the 4 of us in Paris averaged between $100-$130 (including 1 Sprite pop for my son at $6 and wine for the rest of us at $4 per glass. No dessert, no coffee, no appetizers). Lunch in Normandy right near Juno Beach was close to $160 CAD (again, choosing carefully) and lunch in Barcelona in an outdoor cafe facing the ocean was about $100 when ordering tapas. Again, the beverages were generally one Sprite for my son, and a half carafe of wine, and one bottle of water. We never ordered desert or appetizers.

Dinners in Paris were around $150 for the 4 of us and that was eating in Pizza type restaurants. We tried to go to a 'real' restaurant one night (nothing fancy or Fodor's mentioned) but couldn't bring ourselves to spend the $300 plus dollars for the four of us. Barcelona was a little more reasonable, again because you can order Tapas, although we did splurge on night and went to this cool restaurant where you had your own super king size bed that the whole family sat on, propped up with pillows and food was brought to you on huge silver platters...very cool...and that night a simple/small meal was just over $200 for the 4 of us.

To help defray the cost, we did eat once at McD's in Paris (again, about 30% more expensive than at home) and my son ate once at Burger King in Barcelona while the rest of us ate in a cafe on the Rambla that served fish bowl sized Sangraha's (sp?).

I can't comment on hotel costs in Barcelona since we stayed at a 5 star and my husband's company picked up the cost on that (although I seem to think that it was just around $500 per night per room...I could be wrong).

As much as I am complaining here, I still won't let the $ get in the way of travel, especially with my kids although I think that I will give Europe a rest for awhile. And, I am also discovering that there are places waaaaaaaay more expensive like Australia which I am in the midst of planning for March...we leave March 7th and can't figure out how to stay anywhere inexpensively. Maybe Paris was a deal afterall, LOL!

Good luck!

alyssamma,

While Eastern Europe has been significantly cheaper than Western Europe, I am seeing more and more posts on this board stating the cost differences aren't so great anymore. This especially applies to Croatia, which has now been "discovered." I have no first-hand knowledge of this, however.

"We stayed in a place that was probably equivilant to a Days Inn, but smaller rooms, and paid 230 euro (340 CAD/US) a night per room (we had to have 2 rooms as 4 people are not allowed in 1 room) which I found to be really expensive. Mind you, we stayed centrally (right near the Louvre). I researched hotels extensively, and found this to be the least expensive option for a room with a private bath that wasn't a half hour outside of Paris."

Huh? There are dozens of posts here regularly about dozens of central Paris hotels with high praise for well under 200 euros a night, often under 120 euros a night, some even under 100 per night -- nearly ALL with private bath. When you say you researched extensively and found it the least expensive do you mean all those other dozens and dozens of hotels were already filled? I'm really dumbfounded by the idea that the lowest priced central Paris hotel with private bath was 230 euro per night!

Anita63: "I researched hotels extensively . . . " I honestly cannot imagine what research you might have done - certainly not on here - if that was the cheapest/best place you could find in Paris. I've never paid close to that much and never stayed in anything as bad as a Days Inn.

"There are dozens of posts here regularly about dozens of central Paris hotels with high praise for well under 200 euros a night, often under 120 euros a night, some even under 100 per night -- nearly ALL with private bath."

While I don't disagree with your broader point, I think you may be unfairly minimizing just how much 'nicer' a North American hotel (except NYC) is than a European hotel. While some of the chains can be a bit soulless, most offer rooms that are substantially larger than a European hotel. The public spaces can be more grand. Things like health clubs and swimming pools are quite common. The list goes on.

I mean, so many of these reviews read like a real estate ad, with words like cozy or quaint. Or they talk about location or how friendly people are or the staff. And these things are very important, but for someone accustomed to North American size and style rooms, they just don't measure up. At all.

I've traveled around and a good example, I think, is the Crowne Plaza Brugges. An unbeatable location. Great staff. But the room was beyond small. Much smaller than any similar property I have ever stayed at in the US, including in New York. I'm not complaining, but I can see how someone would think that they are not getting good value. Ditto the Westin Paris, which, along with tiny rooms, was simply not up to the standards that it should have been.

Or consider the 4* London hotels on Priceline that I, along with many others use. I have yet to stay at one that would qualify as a 4* in North America. Indeed, only the Novotel Euston has come close to rising to the level of a 3* hotel in the US or Canada. Places like the Copthorne Tara, while fine, are a step below your average Hampton Inn.

You can always argue that it comes down to location, location, location, but this just seems like a cop-out for those that want to claim that Europe is not more expensive. Every visitor I have had come to Europe so far has commented on just how much more expensive it is, and they aren't even talking about lodging, as I always cover that. And these visitors are from places like New York and San Francisco, which place at the top of the list of the most expensive cities in the US. Heck, I moved from Boston, and am still shocked at how expensive many basic things are.

We were just in Paris for the 5th time in Sept. Shop the airfares to get the best deal. We like a good hotel or rent an apartment through FranceforRent.com. Those are the big expenses. On the ground in Paris is not a big expense.

Take the Metro(very easy) or the boats, or the best way is to walk. If you pick a property near the Seine, you can walk most everywhere.

Now the food. If you are in a hotel, it will most likely include breakfast. Lunch is very reasonable. Dinner is not costly in hundreds of small bistros.

Some examples: Relais Entrecote(left bank),Au Bougnat(1 block from Notre Dame), Sorza and Le Fleur en Isle(on Ile St. Louis), Marco Polo(Rue de Conde, near the Odeon, left bank).

Museums are not expensive. Walking those beautiful streets, very interesting and free.

Even after 5 times there, we still have things on our "to do list".

So, is it more expensive than the states----I really don't think so. It all depends what you want to do. Personally, I'd take a 3 0r 4 star hotel or apartment in Paris before a generic property in the states any time, much more interesting.

But travelgourmet -- your comments have little or nothing to do with the post I was referring to. The poster stayed in a place not unlike a DaysInn -- we aren't talking Crown Plazas or 4 or 5 star properties here. Her comment WASN'T "I couldn't find a really wonderful place" for under 230 euros, it was that 230 was the "least expensive with a private bath that wasn't half an hour outside of Paris". That simply doesn't make any sense.

This is not a straight yes/no answer. It depends on which season you are traveling and where you are traveling.

One thing, for sure, is that peak season travel to Europe (during the summer) is far more expensive than peak season travel to any place in America.

Take peak season travel to the Riviera. The cheapest roach motels that we've been able to find along the Riviera are more than 90euro per night (equivalent to Motel 6 or Days Inn in the US). Modest hotels are 120-150Euro (equivalent to a Fairfield Inn perhaps). Nice hotels are 300 to 500 Euro (comparable to Marriotts in the states). Luxury hotels are 700Euro per night (equivalent to a Ritz Carlton in the US).

Now, let's compare this to the peak season in say, New Orleans. That would be during Mardi Gras (right now). You can get a cheap roach hotel for around $90 (not 90euro), a modest hotel for $150 (not 150euro), and a nice hotel for $250-300. Luxury hotels like the Ritz are not more than $350-$400.

Now, I know the off season (winter) on the Riviera is cheap, but so is the off season in New Orleans (summer), when the Ritz Carlton (honestly) can be had for $95/night in late July/early August. There is nothing in Europe in the central city in a luxury hotel for that cheap of a price, even in the off-season there.

How about this suggestion. When you yanks travel in the USA you know what's what. You know the cheap food outlets, you know where the locals would go to eat and drink. you know what hotel chains are cheap etc. This isn't true just of Americans - but we Europeans are more used to European cities

When you are in a foreign country you haven't the foggiest. You can't speak the language. You don't know anyone to ask where to go or when to go. Also the American guidebooks I've seen for London have the most spectacularly bad advice in them (so I'm guessing the same applies elsewhere) so you end up in the central areas with the most expensive restaurants etc.

So the difference is basically a level of local knowledge. Hence it's not a straight comparison.

I agree that you overpaid for your hotel in Paris.

For meals ( and I like food), as a sample of what I paid my last trip...

Dinner, La Jzcobine, small place in 6th, maigret de canard with veg, and fish soup, glass of Beaujolais: 30E.

Lunch. Place des Vosges, outdoors with view. Bavette de veau Lots of veggies, and potatoes dauphinoise, 1/2 bottle Vittel, glass of Chinon: 17E.

Dinner, Chez Clement in 6th, plate with two pieces of nice cured sausage,Terrine Maison
,½ Vittel,1/4 chicken fermier de Loué, creamy potatoes (tasty),Glace et fruits
,Espresso, Glass of Bordeaux wine: 41E

Lunch, Brasserie de L’Ile St Louis, outdoors with view, Faux Fillet au poivre avec frites allumette (steak and fries), Glass of beaujolais nouveau,Café crème, ½ Badoit, 3 glaces – vanille, coco, praline : 41E

Dinner, Rotonde de La Muette, classic breasserie, Soupe au legumes d’automne, Sole Meuniere + small potatoes, Glass Red Chablis,½ bottle Badoit, Mousse au chocolat, Espresso : 57E

Lunch, Miss Manon sandwich shop, Sandwich jambon/gruyere, coca light, crumble fruit rouge: ~10E

Dinner, Bistrot du 7eme, Chose 20E menu of Terrine de porc, Escalope de veau + allumette fries,½ bottle Vittel,½ bottle Saumur, Espresso
,Positano dessert (Chantilly, red, white balls of ice cream): 35E

So I had water, wine and coffee with a lot of the meals. Thses were good meals, not fast food.

CW, that is so true. I also think of the people who have posted that in London to "save money" they ate at Pizza Hut or MacDonald's and were shocked at the prices. They think because those are the cheapest places here, they will be the cheapest places there -- not so. Or at home they are used to eating in their neighborhood, usually away from the "high rent district" of their nearest city. Yet when they travel they are eating in the "high rent" central district.

And while people in the US are often willing to accept the cheapest of hotels at home and will assume they are clean, there is an underlying fear that in a foreign country they'd better go up a step or two as if the hotels won't be as nice.

TPAYT: All of that is good and well, but it is without comparison. It isn't enough to say that Paris wasn't that expensive. You have to compare it to someplace in the US. I don't think Paris is so absurd that people should hold off visiting, but that is not the same as saying it isn't more expensive than North America

For example, you can take public transit in Boston. There is a broad range of restaurants, from $5 Vietnamese noodle shops to the $100+ menu at Clio. You can walk, as well, maybe even more than in Paris. None of the museums are as expensive (or as nice) as the Lourve, but they are very interesting. The Freedom Trail is free. I feel pretty confident that, for the same level of activity, you will spend less in the US.

NeoPatrick: I think I may not have been clear enough. My point is that, for the rooms, I don't think that the Crowne Plaza in Brugges was much nicer than a Days Inn. Ditto the Westin. The Crowne Plaza in Brussels probably has worse rooms than a decent Days Inn. Same with the Copthorne Tara. And, don't forget that Days Inn isn't the only player at that price point, and a place like Hampton Inn is consistently better, IMHO.

More importantly, my point was to try and bring some perspective to the comment. I don't know why the poster couldn't find a cheaper room, but latching onto that point doesn't advance the discussion of whether Europe is more expensive than North America.

I mean, it isn't enough to say, I can find a hotel for €100 that suits my needs, because using the same tricks everyone employs here, you can easily beat that price in the US, and probably match it, even in New York.

I have to say my experience in Paris and Barcelona last spring was vastly different than Anita's.

I can't comment on hotel prices with private baths, because where we stayed it was a shared bath.

As far as food prices go, I was actually pleasantly surprised at how reasonably we could eat.

In Paris our breakfast usually consisted of a croissant or pastry from a bakery (1,50e-2e), coffee from a bar (2,50e at the bar). We would snack throughout the day splitting crepes, sandwiches, or quiches (3e-5e). We'd usually stop at a sidewalk cafe for a small carafe of house wine (5e-8e). Dinner we ate at small cafes, some with fixed price menus (10e-20e). While we definitely ate on a budget, passing over some expensive restaurants etc., but we ate really well. Never felt deprived, or that we weren't eating what we really wanted to.

In Barcelona, our eating was a lot less structured. We never made it out in time for breakfast (Barcelona's great nightlife to blame for that). We mainly ate tapas (at the bar) randomly throughout the day and evening. Hard to put exact prices on these, because tapas vary in size and price, but we never spent more than 25e/pp a day on tapas and beer. Could be done for less, because we drank a lot of beer (it rained our whole time in Barcelona, so that's our excuse, we need to be inside)! A real deal is getting sandwiches from a tapas bar (3,50e-5e), delish and filling. We only had one sit down dinner in Barcelona; it was about 18e each including wine.

I really don't understand eating fast food to save money. Street food in Paris and tapas in Barcelona are cheaper and more delicious!

I see everyone overlooked my comments that high season in Europe is far more expensive than high season in the US, and low season in the US is much cheaper than low season in Europe.

My example proved that point very clearly.

I think when you ask this questions it begs a few others. What time of year are you talking about? Where are you flying from? Don't get me wrong I love Europe more that you'll ever know. I spent 15 glorious days in Italy last year but it took a major bite out of my budget. I'm am an avid travel researcher spending countless hours scouring sites online searching for the best deals but unfortunately my job limits me to travel during about a 1.5 month period during probably the most expensive time of year to buy airfare to Europe. When I do travel there I love staying at hostels and b&b's to keep costs down. But I have to say the continually dropping dollar is making me rethink my plans to go back this year.
I might not limit my travel to the US this year but I'll probably go somewhere where my money stretches farther.

My point being that many people try to Europe during the off season to save money, whereas they travel within the US during the peak season (i.e. Florida during the winter, New England during the fall, coastal California during the summer) and they compare the prices that way.

That is a totally unfair comparison. You must compare peak season travel to peak season travel and off season travel to off season travel.

Michael_Paris: I think your post is very instructive. First, it does a good job of highlighting just what wonderful food one can get in France. Second, I think it exemplifies how what seems like reasonable to a European is ridiculously expensive to an American.

You quote several places at around €40, or roughly $60. Correct me if I am wrong, but none of these seem to be much beyond a typical bistro or brasserie. In Boston, you could go to Magnolia's (a very friendly, very good, comfortable southern bistro) and spend around $40 for a meal with app, main, desert, water, and a glass of wine or beer. Similar prices could be found at a place like B&G Oyster.

Your €57 meal, at a place you describe as a 'typical brasserie' is where things get really dicey, though. Again in Boston, and again eating a similar number of courses, you should be able to eat at a place like Blue Ginger (Wellesley, Ming Tsai's place) or Hammersley's Bistro (which is a bistro in name only). I know my way around food, and I can't imagine a 'typical brasserie' offering near the meal that these places offer. Indeed, I once had a quail stuffed with sweetbreads in a port wine reduction at Hammersley's that may be my single favorite dish I have ever had. Even Clio can be done for around $75, and it is one of the single best meals I have ever had - not French Laundry, but well beyond simply good. Simply put, €57 is what an average American would consider a 'splurge' meal.

And I mention Boston, because it is among the pricier cities. It isn't New York, but New York is such a strange animal, with a huge array of restaurants at every price level, that I hesitate to even call it expensive. For example, I am about 75% sure that you can get out of Peter Luger's, which is a rite of passage for any meat-loving visitor (and genuinely worth the hype) for less than €57. Then there are cities like Houston, where one can get food that is a staggering bargain for the quality.

Continuing my New Orleans analogy:

You could come eat at Cafe Du Monde and get great beignets and coffee for less than $5 for breakfast, eat a Muffaletta from the Central Grocery for lunch with a drink each day for less than $10, and eat at moderately priced yet decent restaurants for dinner for less than $20.

On the flip side, you could also spend hundreds of dollars per person at Commander's Palace or Brennan's, for example. But you can save if you want to.

travelgourmet, I think you'd then be right regarding Peter Luger's, if you are talking per person, which I assume you are?

We shared the porterhouse for two (the standard there), added creamed spinach, and we split a starter of the sliced tomatoes with onions. Had no desserts. My partner had one glass of house red, and I had one Robroy. Our bill with tax and tip was $148 (that's pretty much an even 100 euros for two, but we certainly didn't have a huge or even complete meal.

Meanwhile when comparing meals, let's not forget in the US, you usually need to add somewhere up to 30% for the tip AND the tax! And another interesting note -- in Paris you often get a three course meal for the price of a single ala carte meal in many standard or neighborhood type restaurants -- rarely do you find that kind of deal in the US.

NeoPatrick,

My prices include tips and taxes...

Actually, since I'm from Toronto, not sure if my list highlites much more than I'm used to paying city prices for meals. NYC scares me, big $$

In my thinking, meals are important and I enjoy planning which ones to eat at. But I hoped to show that meals can be had for under $75 a person, and with planning sometimes very much below. Not one of the meals I had would I say was mediocre, all were in nice, clean places with a blend of tourists and locals.


When the comment was made that could see paying $300 for a nice meal, that got me thinking. My most expensive meal was 57 euro, of that the main course was 28 euro. Another of the meals was a superb, and chosen off of a 20 euro menu. Since I tend to add wine/water/dessert (if not included), my meal costs could be lower.

I'm a yearly visitor to Cape Cod/Boston, so I'm familiar with the pricing there. I can easily enjoy a lobster roll on the Cape, an Indonesian dinner near Fenway, or something more $$ on the North Side. Even rent room at a B&B in Colonial house on the Cape for $100-125, take the T in from Braintree. So an expensive city/area can be "managed", with help from people here. And that applies to Europe also.

From posts here, I know that good french food can be had on a budget. I don't particularly search them out, but I've on several occasions eaten cheap and light at lunch so I could spend a few more $ at dinner.

I guess I'm one of those who blows more money than average on meals when I travel. Maybe I've been to Europe too often that I don't blink at the prices anymore.

We stayed in a place that was probably equivilant to a Days Inn, but smaller rooms, and paid 230 euro (340 CAD/US) a night per room (we had to have 2 rooms as 4 people are not allowed in 1 room) which I found to be really expensive. Mind you, we stayed centrally (right near the Louvre). I researched hotels extensively, and found this to be the least expensive option for a room with a private bath that wasn't a half hour outside of Paris.

anita63: I have to agree with NeoPatrick and janisj, that is just absurd. I don't know what kind of extensive "research" you did, but there are a ton of great hotels in central Paris that cost much less than 230 euros for a double with a private bath. (The Champ de Mars is about 80 euros/nt and some of their rooms have a view of the Eiffel Tower.)

bkluvsnola: I agree that the Riviera is expensive, but I don't really think it's a fair comparison with New Orleans, even during Mardi Gras.

The Riviera is a playground for the uber-wealthy, whereas NO is, um, not. (I'm not knocking it, I used to live there.) New Orleans is one of the lowest cost cities in the US, and even during Mardi Gras, it's not all that expensive compared to cities like NYC and SF. If you want to compare the Riviera to a US destination, you'd have to look at the Hamptons or Palm Beach or Bar Harbor or somewhere like that, in high season. (I don't know, where do the uber-rich go these days?)

But that all goes back to the point that everybody is arguing about: it's very hard to compare expenses between Europe and the US because it's hard to agree on what an "apple to apple" comparison would be. I personally find myself spending more in Europe than in the US, but I also think a Europe trip can be done very cheaply with a little effort.

And I think it's easier to find a good budget hotel in Paris or Rome than in NYC or SF -- maybe that's because my personal standards are lower in Paris or Rome, because I can't stomach the thought of going "budget" in NYC or SF because I'm more worried about security issues.

The airfare to Europe from the US is the only part that can't really be done on the cheap these days.

cheryllj,

Okay, maybe my comparison was not fair. Let's compare Spain to New Orleans then. I was there last year, and Barcelona was far more expensive than anything in New Orleans (okay maybe a not good comparison either), but even the small coastal Spanish towns were not cheap. At least 150-200 Euros per night and meals were minimum of 20 Euros.

Okay, you may say even that is not a fair comparison. Then I challenge you to find *any place* in Europe where you can beat the off season prices to New Orleans.

with the requirement of finding a 5 star hotel (Ritz Carlton) right in the city center (in this case French Quarter) for $95 a night.

It just isn't possible in Europe.

I don't think that the Intercontinental Bucharest is comparable to a Ritz Carlton, but it is also a 5* hotel, and through a very special deal, I stayed there in August 2007 for $50 USD per night.

Also, getting sub-$100 5* European hotels on Priceline is rare, but it does happen now and then.

Were you using points? If so, that is not a fair comparison.

I also stayed for free at the Ritz Carlton in Barcelona, but that was with points earned from business travel. But then I've also stayed for free in New Orleans too!

Travel in Italy is so much cheaper in November. Hotels are sometimes half the price, and there are no crowds!! Weather can be iffy at that time in northern area, but quite comfortable in Rome. Eat in restaurants off the beaten track,our rule is 3 streets over from main thoroughfares.Europe is expensive, but most hotels include breakfast, and dinner can be pizza or some takeaway.You do come home with an appreciation of how good we have it here.

The 5* Crowne Plaza Vilnius quotes 85 euros a night for a standard double in February.

The Ritz in New Orleans quotes $129/nt for a double in July.

I'm not saying that the Crowne Plaza is comparable to the Ritz, because it's probably not. But there are cheaper cities in Europe to visit (Bucharest, Sofia, Lubljana, Lisbon, etc.), it's just that Americans don't visit them very often and tend to focus on the priciest places.

No Crowne Plaza is a 5* hotel.

Let me give an example to support my opening statement. Below are the 2008 per person costs in US dollars (excluding airfare) for 9 day guided tours offered by Tauck, a high-end tour company. They do everything 1st class, regardless of destination:

Canadian Rockies and Glacier National Park -- $2990 to $3580 (depending on season)

Tuscany, Umbria, and Florence -- $3290 to $3490

Thus, the MAX difference between the two would be $500 more ($3490 less $2990) to go to Italy in high season and Canada/US in low season. Conversely, you COULD go to Italy for $290 CHEAPER ($3580 less $3290).

I see no reason to expect the differences to be significantly greater on less expensive guided tours or on a self-guided trip -- as long as one is comparing similar lodging, meals, etc.

I think the point is that cost differences don't begin to approach that expected when considering the value of the Euro vs. the US dollar (currently 1 Euro = 1.48 US dollars).

I live in Hawaii. My family (husband, 2 teenagers) just returned from a fabulous trip over the Christmas and New Year's holiday where we traveled, independently, to Paris, Germany and Zermatt. I was pleasantly surprised with the pricing for meals, gifts, etc. The value for what we received (and are used to) was excellent. I thought prices (especially for meals) would be much higher. The real expense is in the airfare (especially from Hawaii!) Once you are in Europe - I believe you can live on a similar budget to what you spend at home, and be very satisfied!!!

Perhaps to summarize...are there places go go in USA that are cheaper than Europe..yes. Are there places to go that are more expensive...yes. Is all of Europe the same value for money, expensive/cheap...no.

Compare Turkey to London...compare Idaho to NYC.

Is it possible to visit Europe more economically (city and countryside), another yes.

I agree with Michel_Paris. Also, the fact is regardless of everything else it has gotten *more* expensive to travel in Europe than it was before because of a) higher airfare and b) a weaker US dollar.

So the US vs. Europe which is more expensive debate can go on forever with countless arguments for and against. But it is a fact that it is cheaper now for Europeans to visit the US than before and the reverse is true for Americans because of the exchange rate.

Since I live near the Canada/US border, I've added in flying out of Buffalo to go Europe in order to save a few $.

I have also used Expedia to get a flight/hotel deal that I thought was good value for money.

Cheap...go to Africa. I was in Ghana a couple of years ago and spent less than $500 for 2 weeks (excluding air)

In my example above, I purchased the points directly, so the cost was exactly as stated. If I hadn't done that, I was thinking of the Crowne Plaza Bucharest, which does say it is 5*, for a rate of 69 Euros per night (although that's not a very common rate, admittedly). And although I know many Crowne Plaza hotels are not really 5*, this one does look very nice. Still, I'm sure it's not of Ritz Carlton quality. At a certain point, though, hotel niceness above a certain threshold is almost superfluous to me.

I repeat myself. No Crowne Plaza is a 5* hotel. Not even close. 5* has to mean something, even in Europe, where ratings can be grossly inflated.

If the hotel was genuinely close to a 5*, then it would be rebranded an IC hotel.

Over and over I've read that the flight over is the most cost prohibitive. I'm flying free this summer thanks to AA airline miles. Sure, I have to pay a yearly fee but it's nothing compared to the cost of a ticket.

"Over and over I've read that the flight over is the most cost prohibitive."

And yet this isn't necessarily true. Lodging can really add up if you aren't careful.

Connie, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in this thread. I'm sure that many people on this thread are part of a FF program and can get a free ticket here or there.

Also, was your ticket 100% free? You didn't have to pay for taxes?

How many tickets could you get? Did you get enough for a family?

Having or not having a FF program doesn't change how expensive Europe is or is not compared to the US.

Re travelgourmet's comment: "None of the museums [in Boston] are as expensive (or as nice) as the Lourve"

The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston charges $17 admission. Admission to the Louvre is 9 euro or approximately $13.50 at the current exchange rate.

It may be, but I'm not discouraged. I do plan on going to London perhaps in the next couple years or so. (After i go to washington dc and save up again. ) I'll be by myself, and i do plan on going the cheaper routes in terms of sleeping arrangements. Hopefully I can figure out some reasonably cheap eating places. But I'm not going to let the cost keep me from going there. I'm sure it can be done, somehow.

"I think the point is that cost differences don't begin to approach that expected when considering the value of the Euro vs. the US dollar (currently 1 Euro = 1.48 US dollars)."

I sort of agree with this, except that I don't expect €1 to equal $1, so the fx rate is kind of meaningless in assessing cost. For example, $1 equals around THB 30, yet I don't expect Thailand to be 30x cheaper than the US. But, to your broader point, folks shouldn't just look at the fx rate and assume that Europe is expensive.

"I see no reason to expect the differences to be significantly greater on less expensive guided tours or on a self-guided trip -- as long as one is comparing similar lodging, meals, etc."

This is something I really do disagree with. I suspect that prices at the luxury end may be consistent. And I think that true budget travel might be priced consistently. But, at the lower middle to near-luxury markets I completely disagree that one can get "similar" value. Particularly with regards to meals and lodging. At the mid-range, both will be better value in the US. And it wasn't always this way with regard to food, but costs on this front have risen in the EU, and the quality level in the US has risen in the mid-range, such that I think the pendulum has swung in favor of the US.

Local transport is probably comparable. Cross-border transport is more problematic, as the options aren't always comparable - for example, EU budget airlines are significantly more spartan than anything in the US, but they can be cheaper. On the other side, domestic first class on a US carrier is probably a better product than intra-EU premium seats. And this difference is very, very substantial when comparing a top US domestic first class like Continental to a low-end intra-European premium class like Alitalia or KLM.

I am no seasoned traveler like others here but I have been to Europe twice. This past Sept we were in Paris,Munich,Wurzburg and Frankfurt. I think the European cities we visited costs about the same as vacation cities in the USA? In Paris meals run anywhere from 10 to 60 Euros at regular restaurants and more at fancy places just like in NYC or LA. The difference is the exchange rate of the Dollar for us Americans but it's not the Europeans fault. They use Euros, 10 Euros to them is like 10 Dollars to us. I do think however that hotels are more expensive in Europe then in America (room for room) Take Paris for example.. Thay have such limited space there that a nice room say at, a Red Roof inn in LA will cost about $100 close to tourist sites in a good area.. In Paris the same room would be 200 Euros or more? In Germany like in Munich, there are cheaper rooms to be had if you are not there at Oktoberfest time. We were there at fest time and paid 440 Euros for 2 nights at the Holiday inn north. The same hotel in NYC in a like area would have been maybe $150 per night? In Wurzburg and Frankfurt we had rooms that were beautiful in great areas for 80 Euros per night. Overall, I would say that if not for the poor exchange rate Europe costs about the same as the USA except for hotels in some cities. We're going back in Sept and even with the bad exchange rate I think it's a good value. Also, Airfares to Europe are not that bad either. We fly from Dallas. Round trip to anywhere in Europe is about 10,000 miles. This year we expect to pay about $950.00 each but if you break that down.. It's only about 9 cents a miles! Heck it costs us about 20 cents a mile to drive to Safeway.

"But, at the lower middle to near-luxury markets I completely disagree that one can get "similar" value. Particularly with regards to meals and lodging. At the mid-range, both will be better value in the US. And it wasn't always this way with regard to food, but costs on this front have risen in the EU, and the quality level in the US has risen in the mid-range, such that I think the pendulum has swung in favor of the US."

Sorry, travelgourmet, but I completely DISAGREE with you on that score. Now you're talking about the level I think we travel at -- mid-range to possibly luxury level, both in the US and in Europe, and pretty extensively too. Again, as with many posts above, special prices can be found either place, but overall, we find that the same "type" or "level" of restaurant in major cities in Europe tends to be higher quality and better value than in the US -- or certainly no more than equal in price. Taking into account wine in particular -- Europe becomes a better bargain. We find a nice bottle of bordeaux in France far surpasses in qualiy and value than the same price paid at a nice US restaurant for a good bottle of cabernet, for example. We find a spectacular three course dinner in Paris often far surpasses three courses at a similarly nice restaurant in most US cities, where starter, main course, and dessert are nearly always priced separately. (I'm not talking about tasting menus, I rarely do those).

While you and I may have different standards of "quality" in hotels, I'll much prefer a nice $250 -$275 a night superior room in Paris at a place like Le Regent to a generic but quality similar priced Hyatt or Marriott or Wyndam in San Francisco or New York. I only wish I could find a similar hotel for the price in Ameican Cities, but I rarely can, except at tiny "European style boutique hotels" which usually are more like $400 a night in the US. While you may focus your "value" on things like room service or other amenities, I may focus my value on style and furnishings, prefering things like walls upholstered in toile fabrics to beige vinyl commercial wallcoverings on all the walls.

I realize these arguments can never be settled as we all have different tastes, and no matter what, someone will always come up with a way to get something cheaper either place. Let's face it you can't even really "name a specific price" for a good meal in Los Angeles. What restaurant you go to and what you even order between very similar restaurants can still be night and day in terms of price, so how can we really ever compare apples to oranges? Your apple, may be my orange. Do you really want to argue about which is cheaper or better value -- Spago or Nobu? Trying to compare similar places is a lost cause. A couple may spend $200 at one and $300 at the other, go back a week later and spend exactly the opposite amounts. So how on earth can anyone compare what they spend at a US restaurant to a "similar" one in Europe -- except as an overall average? That's what I'm doing -- feeling we eat at "similar" levels of restaurants both places, and spending no more overall at the European counterparts (but often finding the food, value, and certainly the wines to considerably surpass).

But again, I will firmly disagree with your generality about mid-range pricing being higher for the same quality in European cities compared to US cities. Sorry, you don't have to agree with me -- but then you and I aren't comparing the same apples to the same oranges. You may prefer a MacIntosh and I may prefer a Granny Smith -- even though both may be identically priced in the supermarket! Pretty hard to compare value when the basic tastes may even be different.

I see lots of people are confounded at the 'amount of research' I have done. Trust me, I did. It never occured to me that when i wrote my travel dates in my post (dec.27-jan5) that I had to spell out that I was there over New Years which is very expensive. Restaurants had signs in their windows 'advertising' their holiday specials that were never lower than 50 euro per person, and often a cover charge on top of that.

And as a side note: I always hesitate posting on here, as I find some (I said SOME) people seem to be more interested in finding fault in other posts instead of appreciating the comments for what they are worth...simple observations from people who have 'been there, done that' in their experience.

Thank you to the poster who rightly so pointed out the 'high season' versus the 'low season' arguement.

Happy travels to all. You can bet your bottom dollar that i won't be posting my observations on my upcoming Australia trip in this forum.

How sad for you, that you'd rather take your ball and go home instead of simply answering why your situation was INCREDIBLY unique. MANY hotels in Paris do NOT raise their rates for those dates -- trust me on this, but you could have also mentioned your problem was due to the fact that so many hotels were already fully booked and you had a hard time finding one that wasn't (clearly you must not have booked very far ahead if all the hotels in Paris under 230 euros were booked). Some of us are not mindreaders, and a simple explanation is often required rather than disappearing off in a huff because someone dared to question your post.

Saying "I researched hotels extensively, and found this to be the least expensive option for a room with a private bath that wasn't a half hour outside of Paris" seems a lot different than saying "we had a difficult time finding a hotel under 230 euros that wasn't already fully booked over the holidays." I doubt that anyone would have raised an eyebrow if you had said the latter.

By the way, friends of mine just stayed at LeRegent for 190 euros in a SUPERIOR room for five nights arriving on Christmas Eve. They booked that on my recommendation sometime in November when they decided to go to Paris, so I DO know what I'm talking about here. They also mentioned the hotel was at least half empty for the first couple of nights -- Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, but seemed pretty full on three days after Christmas.

anita63,

No problem. I saw people questioning whether you had done the right investigation when clearly they didn't realize you were there during high priced New Years.

Honestly, I think you probably got the best deal possible. Sure, if you would have waited until mid January the prices would have been cheaper, but you were there during New Year's, and that's when you had to make the comparison.

My point was that during festivals, high season, etc... Europe is far more expensive than the US.

That being said, there's nothing like being in Europe during high season (whether summer, New Years, Easter, or what have you), when the excitement and energy are there, just as there's nothing like being in New Orleans during Mardi Gras, Jazz Fest, or other festive times. But you do have to pay for it

NeoPatrick,

You state "Some of us are not mindreaders" but she explicitly said in her post the dates of her travel. If you would have just *read* the post, you would have realized that.

"...but you could have also mentioned your problem was due to the fact that so many hotels were already fully booked and you had a hard time finding one that wasn't (clearly you must not have booked very far ahead if all the hotels in Paris under 230 euros were booked). Some of us are not mindreaders, and a simple explanation is often required rather than disappearing off in a huff because someone dared to question your post."

Gee...you claim to not be a mind reader yet you believe that (1) my post was directed to you and (2)you knew my circumstances of booking.

And I so do appreciate that you are sad for me. Nice to know you care.

"feeling we eat at "similar" levels of restaurants both places, and spending no more overall at the European counterparts (but often finding the food, value, and certainly the wines to considerably surpass)."

I suspect you might be eating at the wrong restaurants, then. In a place like Boston or New York or San Francisco, I think you can easily eat for a week, at least, and never have a meal that will be "considerably surpassed" by a European restaurant of similar standing. Certainly, this is true at the very high end, where a place like French Laundry or Jean-Georges or Charlie Trotter's would be rivaled (and never consistently beaten) by only a handful of European restaurants. Of course, the same would be true of the Fat Duck or El Bulli going the other way.

As for the wine... Well, the Judgement of Paris and several tastings of a similar type would disagree with you. I suspect that your displeasure may have more to do with unfamiliarity than anything else. I probably fall in the opposite camp, where I can intelligently select from a New World-heavy list, but am often flying blind on a French-heavy list.

Thank you bkslvnola for (1) pointing out the obvious to other poster and (2) for 'getting' that I was there over high period.

You are right about the 'vibe' on new years...it was awesome being on the Place du Concord sipping champagne and watching the Eiffel tower light up. Pay dearly...yes we did...but what terrific family memories I have with my husband and teens.

travelgourmet, you and I will have to continue to disagree. I KNOW what I like. I KNOW where I eat. Your opinions and mine are simply not the same, nor apparently will they ever be. That's fine. That's what makes the world go round.

Once again, I have no idea why keep talking about Charlie Trotters and French Laundry and other high end places in THIS conversation. I'm talking about eating in typical neighborhood bistros and family run restaurants in both the US and Europe -- that's what I call mid range. Some are better than others in either place. Regarding the wines, I'm talking about buying a $25 - $30 dollar bottle of good (not spectacular) French bordeaux (lots of European places still have a nice selection of good wines at 19 euros) at a nice bistro in Paris but nothing drinkable in my book for that price in most similar restaurants in the US, in fact many "average newer restaurants in the US" seem to have NO bottles of anything under $40 these days. And no, I'm far more familiar with California wine names than French. But we're not talking about ordering Silver Oak Cab here. $25 on most US wine lists in restaurants doesn't leave you much above Ernest and Julio category. I suspect you're back to talking about $75 to $150 bottles of wine.

"My point was that during festivals, high season, etc... Europe is far more expensive than the US."

Huh? Once again the same is true either place. Have you tried booking a mid town Manhattan hotel for New Year's Eve? Or a Pasadena Hotel during Rose Bowl, or a New Orleans hotel during Mardi Gras?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Gee...you claim to not be a mind reader yet you believe that (1) my post was directed to you and (2)you knew my circumstances of booking."

Huh? What do either of those things have to do with mindreading?
I'll admit to having a little bit of common sense, however. My point on the second issue is precisely that since I'm NOT a mindreader, I had no way of knowing you were talking about last minute bookings and that the hotels at your price were already filled -- not simply "non existent".

Neo...I NEVER mentioned or implied that I booked last minute. YOU came to that conclusion, so therefore you must be trying to read my mind.

You know...it's people like you that make forums like this not worth the effort.

My appolgies to the original post for taking up valuable space with this rediculous discussion.

Anita, read my post. I said friends booked LeRegent in November for over Christmas for 190 euros. I didn't imply before that you weren't telling the truth, but now if you want to insist that you checked with LeRegent and dozens and dozens of other hotels months ahead and they all wanted more than 230 euros then I will doubt you. Is that clear?

I know you're thinking I'm the one making an issue here, but I'll stand my my point that all your post needed originally was the statement that hotels were fully booked -- not an implication that such hotels don't exist. You're right. It is a ridiculous discussion. Sorry I ever made a suggestion that would have made your post clearer. Obviously clarity is not important to you, so I apologize for bringing it up.

Thank you for your appology, Neo...that was very nice of you.

Anita,

I'm not a frequent poster here, as there are many with far more experience traveling than myself. But I use these boards extensively to plan my vacations. One of the things I rely on these boards most for is the price of food and meals. Airfare, lodging, transportation costs can all be easily found, planned for and/or prepaid. I think the average Fodorite has enough internet skills to find a hotel in a good location with good reviews (better than Day's Inn) for less than 230e. It's harder to know how much to budget for my meals and misc costs. I'm definitely a budget traveler, but not to the extent that I'm wiling to sacrifice good food, or eat all my meals from what I can assemble from a supermarket.

One of the reasons I responded to your post to dispute the cost of food, is that is where I feel there is a lack of information here on Fodors. When researching Paris last year, posts that were asking for inexpensive food/restaurants, seemed to only get three types of responses: Picnic / fix meal in an apt., Eat at ethnic places, i.e. falafel places, or recs for places that were 30e pp +. I was seriously worried I would have to blow my food budget in Paris in order to eat what I wanted to eat. I am okay with a picnic or two, but I want to experience local restaurants. I love ethnic food, but I live in Los Angeles, so I get my fill here, I want to eat local food when I travel. And 30e + is not my idea of budget!

I was so pleasantly surprised when I got to Paris and there was all of this great food that is very affordable. I try to share my experience when I see a post about how unaffordable good food is in Paris (or Barcelona, but that's not as common).

Anita, I understand you were there over New Years, but I still find it hard to believe that you had no affordable options. I mean Parisians had to eat, and I doubt they were all paying 50e + for special holiday menus. Neighborhood bistros and cafes all only had special holiday menus? Bakeries, crepe stands, sandwich shops were all closed?

This isn't meant to be an attack, or to dissuade you from future posts, but I would hate for someone to read your post and think that they can't afford Paris.

Thank you aimeekim for your reply.

I am trying really really really hard here to be polite and unoffended as it is getting tiresome that people simply will not believe my experiences in Paris over New years regarding food.

I also use this site to help plan many other trips and also depend on the accuracy of the information. It would never occur to me that someone would lie about costs and such. Exactly what do I have to do here to prove what i paid for the food? Should I scan my visa and reciepts to prove to those questioning my post that I paid -overpaid- for food?

I qualified my post with saying that it WAS possible to do things on the cheap, but we opted not to go the grocery store route. We stopped at bistro's and cafe's in the touristy parts of paris over a holiday period, and yes it was $$. And, for your information, picking was slim as many places adhered to holiday schedules or not open at all.

I appreciate your tone, in that you are not blatenly rude to me as some other posters, but you have to understand how annoying this has become for me. I simply wrote about MY experiences, like every other person does, in what I paid for food in Paris over new years.

I find it insulting that the purpose of this venue is to share experiences, and when so done, I am criticised and accused of unable to work a computer, find a better deal, or being accurate. I do not post often because I have seen how many people respond in an unflatering way, but it never occured to me that this was sport for some. What the heck is the point of this venue anyway?

Anita, don't take it personal. I think you are an average traveler. The problem is that some people on this board have perfected the art of budgeting. So, when someone says they did this for $X these people will say that doesn't make sense because you should be able to do it for 1/2 $X.

I consider myself a budget traveler. I don't know all of the deals out there, but I know a lot. I can do a trip for much less than most people can. That being said, I spend a *lot* of time looking for deals and bargins and doing research. Many people don't have that time, don't care, or their time is simply too valuable for them to waste like that.

So, I'm sure the experience you had would have been shared by 90+% of the travelers to Paris during that time. Don't worry about the other 10% that can do it cheaper. What matters is that you enjoyed your trip.

Please keep posting on this board as I think *all* viewpoints are valuable. People can read them all and decide for themselves which ones to accept or ignore.

Anyway, hopefully you won't worry about people on this thread who might have implied they doubted you or that you did something wrong.

Kevin

We were there in Sept 2007 and I want to add my 2 cents. We had very good/great full course tourist? meals in St.Germain/ St. michel for 45 Euros with wine and desert for 2 people. We had great wine,bread and chesses on the avenue des champs right next to the marriot for 17 Euros per order. I believe Paris is a good value for your tourist Dollar.

Anita, please. No one, and I do mean no one here has accused you of telling lies. We believe that's what you paid. What we're saying is that you CHOSE to spend that much, and you are simply WRONG that nothing was available for less -- food or hotel. I do believe you may have paid those prices for hotel and for meals. Where the argument comes into play is that YOU COULD have done it for less -- and no I'm not talking about grocery store shopping. You apparently chose a nice hotel. Fine -- you are entitled to. You chose something nice and apparently got it. No one says you have to lower your standards if you don't want to. What we object to is that you seem to indicate there was NO way to get things for less than that. The point is that if you REALLY TRIED, you could have gotten a hotel for less UNLESS it was last minute and everything was already sold out. I WILL NOT BELIEVE that every single hotel in Paris that normally charges 80 to 200 euros a night jacked their prices up to over 230. It's not that we don't believe you paid that, it's just that many of us KNOW that hotels were available for much, much less.

Now if you want, you can call me a liar. I have thick skin. I can take it, especially when I KNOW that I am right about that. Yes, they may have been a little difficult to find or taken a little more work, but please don't tell us that unless it was the very last minute and every room in Paris was booked, that "no hotel with a private bath could be found for under 230 euros within a half hour of Paris". I'd believe they painted the Eiffel Tower orange for New Year's before I will believe that. Again, I'm not saying you're lying. I'm just saying you are wrong. Get the difference?

Neo, with all due respect, are you yelling with your use of caps? Using them is the equivalent of yelling as I am sure you know. Otherwise, your writing and your comments are interesting and helpful. I don't always agree with what you say but that is ok. I just think the use of caps detracts from your message and you lose a certain amount of credibility.

Neo, thanks for your earlier rundown of cost comparisons between New York and London.

I suppose a lot depends upon the level of "luxury" and all that.

We used to think it was cheaper to see theatre in London than in New York but feel that has changed.

I don't think anyone can discount the rather poor exchange rate but then again I haven't necessarily compared the cost of a cup of coffee in London vs. New York given the exchange rate it would seem that the cup would cost more in London in terms of the amount of money spent but perhaps I am incorrect.

A couple of years ago it was cheaper for me to fly to Amsterdam for a five-night stay that it was for me to take the Metroliner back and forth from Washington to New York so I opted for A-dam.

Perhaps in the end there are just too many variables to be considered to say absolutely one way or the other that one place is overall MUCH more expensive to travel to than another.

These articles are circular and very tiresome.

Anita paid what she paid, and I believe she probably paid prices *comparable* to other tourists that are in the main tourist areas (note how I emphasize things NeoPatrick, it's much better than *yelling*).

I believe that (a) not every restaurant was open during that time period or the hours may have been skewed, (b) there may have been little known restaurants off the beaten that may have been cheaper, but there's no way for Anita to have known where they were OR perhaps she didn't want to walk in cold/rainy weather for 30 more minutes with her kids to a bad neighborhood just to save a couple of Euros when they were probably hungry anyway.

Bottom line: Cut her some slack.

I suppose the real bottom line in terms of the subject of this thread is that YES, it can be a lot more expensive to travel ANYWHERE depending on where you stay, where you eat, and what you do.

Using the OP's example..yes, I can easily spend over $500 a night in a US hotel as we often do in London..but I gotta tell you...that "over $500 a night in a London hotel" will never be matched by a similar location in the US which despite cost..isn't London!

I am sticking my neck out here but is anyone prepared to agree that :

1. Crappy bargain basement eating is far cheaper in the US than Europe.

2. Good solid, middle of the road eating once you add the tips and taxes is sightly more expensive in the US

3. Known restaurants are bloody expensive where ever you go. You don't eat there if you are worried about the cost in the same way that you don't buy a Ferrari and worry about its fuel consumption.

Markrosy, I'll stick my neck part way out with you. Yes, I agree with both #2 and #3 (although of course I understand you mean often or usually and not always in #2). However, I really don't do much bargain basement eating in either the US or in Europe so I can't stick my neck out on that one.

I spent two weeks last summer with a friend who had moved to Seward, Alaska from New Orleans after Katrina. I certainly think Alaska was more expensive than London because of the lack of choices of places to spend money. It was "take it or leave it".

NeoPatrick, you are an excellent writer and your succeed in giving accurate desriptions on a wide variety of topics regarding travel. I do still think that in your case the use of caps is unecessary. Your messages come through loud and clear. Its quite a gift actually.

"your succeed in giving accurate desriptions"
Should read " you succeed in giving accurate descriptions". Bloody typos!

I understand where you are coming from now, NeoPatrick. Thank you. Pas de probleme.

I was in the North End of Boston today. As I read many of the menus of some of the restaurants, I coudn't help think that I will not spend any more money in Spain for a comprable meal when I go there in two weeks. For instance, a lunch special at a decent Italian restaurant in Boston was about 12 dollars. I would probably order a drink and maybe an appetizer which would bring the bill closer to $18. Not to mention the tax and tip. In Spain, I can order a 10 euro or 15 dollar(tax and service charge included) meal that would include a starter, main course, dessert and a drink. I've read that there are also 7 euro meals of the day as well.

We spent the winter holidays in Hawaii, including Maui for New Years with 5 days in Oahu and 4 days in Kaui. We looked for the best buys possible...which is difficult any time but next to impossible over the holidays but found some deals. My sense is that we spent about the same per night for lodging as we will spend for comparable lodging in Paris next summer, even with the expensive Euro and that we spent a lot more for entertainment activities in Hawaii. What I enjoy about Europe is that you can travel like the locals, who have incomes like ours, and have a great time at a reasonble price if you ignore the cost of airfare. My fear is that as we see airline consolidation,the fares to Europe will make our biennial jaunts unaffordable.

Well, this is off topic as I was going to say that I do really disagree with the proposition that mid-level meals are cheaper in Europe than the US, or that "name" restaurants are very expensive. Well, that depends what that means, of course, I am not sure -- if it means the most expensive restaurants in town, of course they are. If it means some of the restaurants considered very good in a city and reviewed very highly -- no, there are some where I live like that which are not expensive. I can also buy a mid-level meal where I live (Wash DC) cheaper than in Paris, London, etc. for about the same quality, so I don't agree with that, either. The prices would be more equal if the USD were worth about one euro, but not now. And if they were equal, it still wouldn't be that meals in Europe were cheaper than in the US, but about the same.

For example, one of my favorite restaurants at home is a mid-level French brasserie (run by expats) where you can get very good frites, steaks, and cheaper French wine. A complete meal there with one glass of wine costs me around US$30. The same quality meal in Paris is now running me around 35 euro, I'd say, and of course that is roughly $50. I can dine in some very good Indian restaurants at home for around $20 total, and I can't get that in Europe for that price. I could go on, but no, I don't agree with those propositions.

Patrick -- I am completely in agreement with you and would just ignore whoever complained about one word in caps for emphasis. This is a silly complaint. I do not complain in general (ever, that I can recall) about how people choose to type, even if all in caps. It isn't "shouting", someone just made that term up--words are silent, obviously. I agree it is easier for us to read upper and lower case, normally, not all caps. However, most people just do that accidentally (not sure why, should be visible when they type), and it isn't that common.

As for the one word in caps to stress or emphasize something -- I do that, also. It makes the most sense to me and reads (at least, to me) the way you intend. There is no other good way to do it. Most people who read English would perceive caps in that sense to be stress, and I think that was common even before the internet. Some internet dweeb just made up that idea about putting asterisks beside words to indicate stress. I don't like that at all and don't use it because -- 1) it doesn't work visually, you don't automatically read that as stress, I know I don't 2) it takes longer to type that way, and 3) lots of folks have never heard of that little rule some guy made up. Look at the folks who don't even know what LOL means, for heaven's sakes, you think people reading these posts know what asterisks mean. I think *not". I REALLY think not.

so, I'm with you, Patrick on this point

If you are paying with American Dollars the answer in a nutshell is YES, it is more expensive. I am in Europe right now and have never paid so much for a meal. Anywhere in the US! and. to add insult to injury, some of the food is not good. You have to know where to spend it.

Christina and Lia B, I absolutely agree with you that equivalent quality meals are generally more in European cities these days than in American cities. This is particularly true of any sort of breakfast beyond a simple pastry. (roughly double in Germany and Amsterdam in my experience vs. Chicago, which is not exactly cheap by U.S. standards)

I've also found beer to be generally more expensive, especially in wine producing countries. ($14 for a pint of beer in Paris, I am not sure I could find such a high price in the U.S. if I even tried, and surely it would not be at a very average cafe) Major beer producing countries like Belgium are more reasonable, however.

Despite the Euro's climb, I still think that moderately priced, yet drinkable wine, is still more affordable than in the U.S. where restaurants tend to gouge on wine.

When you combine the above with steep airfares (and seemingly ever increasing taxes and fees), outrageous rental car and car-for-hire rates, high gasoline costs, high hotel room charges in many major cities (Amsterdam cost me more than double Manhattan for recent visits for each, and the Manhattan hotel blew away the Amsterdam one) & not-so-cheap point-to-point rail fares, I just don't see how anyone spending dollars can find Europe a better value than the U.S. these days.

Oh, and using ALL CAPS for emphasis is perfectly fine in terms of "netiquette" in my opinion.

>>...people simply will not believe my experiences in Paris over New years regarding food...We stopped at bistro's and cafe's in the touristy parts of paris over a holiday period, and yes it was $$...picking was slim as many places adhered to holiday schedules or not open at all...I simply wrote about MY experiences...in what I paid for food in Paris over new years.<<

In defense of this poster: Many places were closed the weeks between Xmas and New Year's. Many restaurants had pricer pre fixe menus for New Year, as is the case in most cities. In tourist areas, business rules, supply and demand, if people will pay it they will charge it.

Since she specifically mentioned Paris: It *seemed* from the really long lines at all the food stores that we stood in, most Parisians ate at home/had dinner/house parties. This is what we did to avoid the holiday-price-inflated more than likely to be half-done meal.

as far as >>it never occurred to me that this [attacking and rudeness(words added are mine not the poster's)] was sport for some. <<

It is a sport to more than a few--computer anonymity allow people to forgo the niceties expected in public.

With that being said, I believe it CAN be cheaper to travel in Europe rather than the US. It all depends on how one travels. In general, accommodations are less expensive, and that tends to be the largest cost incurred in traveling.

The dollar to Euro conversion is a moot point for me. I can only see it making a huge impact percentage-wise on actual increase of the cost of travel if one has not traveled in the last 6-8 years.

Just my 2 cents for what ever it is or is not worth.

Weird. I know a lot of non-pertinent posts were deleted in this thread, but I'm not seeing any recent posts (including one made just a few minutes ago). The 'recent 50' list on the left DOES show it as a new post.. I just can't see it when I open the thread.

We'll see if this post makes it in.