exact thing happened to a friend of mine - in a McDonalds so yes beware about leaving your phone out at anytime I guess.

Thanks for posting. I looked for articles after reading your post and there are several with warnings for this very thing. I'm always checking my phone because I use the maps and gps when I travel.

Gee, where we live, the thieves just wait until people leave them on the front seat of their unlocked car or forget and leave them on the table in the restaurant. Those Europeans are really ingenious!

Thanks for the warning. My husband and I have made many stops at McDonalds to use the free wifi. I remember us sitting with both of our itouches on the table just as you were.

Now I suppose we will have to watch where we sit--choose a table in a corner where we can have our backs against a wall. It's sad when you just can't relax and enjoy being a tourist!! I hope this doesn't spoil the remainder of your time in Paris. Deborah

I think the key is NEVER to let go of any valaubles. Don;t just leave them sitting on the table - hold them in your hand unless they are in a secure purse. And if someone starts bothering you like that - the best idea is to start shouting police at the top of your lungs. They don't want to be noticed and will leave immediately. But many people are hesitant or embarrassed to do this - don't be.

iPhones are the #1 item currently stolen in Paris. Never never never leave them on a café table or use them in public without being very careful.

Paris buses even have a lengthy warning posted in French, English, Spanish and Chinese about being very careful with one's "electronic devices."

Agree with the advice to never, ever, set a phone down, anywhere. When traveling, I install a wrist strap so the phone is either attached to my wrist or safely stored.

Another popular ruse is handing you a note to read. While you're unfolding the note, whoever handed it to you has taken off with your phone.

Know that these people work in teams...one locates devices and another grabs so you never notice the "grabber" surveying.

Exact thing happened to my sister in Paris last month. iPhone sitting on cafe table, guys
swooped in with unfurled maps and lots of hub bub. Fortunately some nearby French diners realized
what was happening and gave chase when the thieves bolted with the phone. Happy ending, sister gratefully picked up the Frenchmen's tab, and learned lesson about keeping phone tucked away!

I had no idea! We had my iPhone out a lot last month using the compass. Never gave it a thought. Thanks for posting!!

I happened to my daughter inside the Starbucks at 18 Blvd. Montmartre in Paris on August 10, 2012.
The staff was unresponsive despite cameras everywhere in there store, which is a joke. I really think they are partly responsible since the staff knew the guy was in the store doing this to their customers and after reading this, you might also see why we feel this way. At no point did the staff at Starbucks seem to care or be concerned even though my child was assaulted and then robbed INSIDE the Starbucks. They should have at least filled out a report or something which would indicate they take attacks on their customers more serious than what they did.
When you go into a Starbucks, anywhere in the world, there is an expected level of continuity not only of the store's product, but also of the customer safety and service practices.
I am not saying they are to blame for the assault and theft, only the criminal is to blame for that. I am saying that one of the reasons these American companies prosper in international locations is because we expect a similar product and we go in there knowing we can order a drink and get the same thing we get at all the other stores. But if they don't comply to the standards, then corporate should withdraw the Starbucks name from that cafe. Same with McDonalds.
This store has taken no steps to adequately protect customers and warn them. In fact, if they have a known theft problem in their store, WHICH THEY KNOW THEY DO, then they are obligated to hire a security guard. Many of the other stores and grocery stores in Paris have opted to do this.
So anyway, back to our story: we went back 30 minutes later and they pretended not to understand English. When we insinuated that the employee (who suspiciously went on a 30 minute break) who witnessed it might be an accomplice, then suddenly they understood English perfectly and acted offended!
Furthermore, if you think the police will do anything about an assault on you or your children while in Paris, think again. The police officer basically laughed at us when we told them the guy assaulted our daughter (she's 14 and was TOTALLY traumatized).
You should know that we did not leave her and her sister unattended. We were 3 feet away and pulled the guy off of her and physically threw him out of the store. It was only later that she realized he ALSO stole her iphone.
BOTTOM LINE: More people need to know that Paris is not a safe place for Americans, even when you do take steps to guard your belongings. In my opinion, if I had known the crime, the lack of security, and the joke of a police force was as bad as it was, I never would have spent the money to travel there. More people need to spread the word about this because they definitely cover it up in order to get your tourist money. Even the police in the airports had no magazines in their guns. Big joke. Also, I really think there is grounds for a class action lawsuit against Starbucks for failure to warn and protect customers who are being assaulted inside of their Paris stores.

More people need to know that Paris is not a safe place for Americans

How do these thieves know that their victims are Americans? They don't ask for ID before they rob you do they?

American iPhones are likely SIM locked. So ...

Anyways, set up Find My iPhone, so you can get the police to track it. Or at the very least, you can wipe it if there's personal info. you don't want out.

Also, there are security settings so that you have to enter a passcode to unlock the screen. And if you enter the code incorrectly 10 times, the data on the phone is automatically erased.

roadyWarrior, since you only registered for this post.
I assume it's to belittle Paris. Sorry for your daughter's assault but that happens in any city and country.

RoadyWarrior, you are hereby authorized to never return to Paris. Paris and its thieves and Starbucks employees will not miss you.

RoadyWarrior - I'm so sorry you and your daughter suffered such a frightening assault, and were disturbed by the lack of what you perceived to be appropriate responses from the Starbucks employees and police in the aftermath.

However, having visited Paris many times, I cannot agree with your statement that "it is not a safe place for Americans." Unfortunately even America is not a safe place for Americans, as we have seen, when one can be shot on the street outside the Empire State Building or while watching a movie. I don't have facts and figures at hand, but I believe we are more at risk of bodily harm in a large city in the US than a tourist is in Paris. I hope no one will be discouraged from visiting Paris based on your comment.

Finally, I think it's good that you and Maur2010 posted about your experiences. We can all learn to be more vigilant with our valuables, and avoid places and situations where these thefts take place.

RoadyWarrior - I'm so happy that the next time I visit Paris I won't find you there. Paris will benefit without your small mindedness.

Ah, jeez, Starbucks in Paris? What a disappointment.

Roadywarrior, I am sorry that your daughter got assaulted. I am sure this is still a very painful subject for you to revisit.

Gee adrienne, what if it was your daughter, would you be still so snarky?

Thanks for the warning.

RoadyWarrior,

and you wrote an angry letter to Starbucks?

Not just in Starbucks and not just Americans! I've been living in Paris for 37 years. I was sitting on the terrace of a restaurant and stupidly had my phone on the table. A young guy threw a paper in front of me begging in Spanish and walked away with the phone underneath it before I even realised it. Yet a few months before I accidentally left my phone on the table on another terrace (bad habit, huh?) and when I came back a few days later, they had kept my phone for me. Now I'm more careful of course. My daughter was in the metro listening to music on her iPhone and suddenly the music stopped. She only had the earphones left! She bought black earphones so that it doesn't look like she's listening to an iPhone. And she's being more careful now of course.

"Also, I really think there is grounds for a class action lawsuit against Starbucks for failure to warn and protect customers who are being assaulted inside of their Paris stores."

come on . . . that is silly.

I don't think you'll be happy visiting any European City, but then again I can't think of a US city where the same or similar couldn't happen.

cafegoddess - I'm the only one who was snarky? What about RoadyWarrior who is totally snarky against Paris and the police and the airport police and Starbucks and their staff and their CCTV - this person is snarky against just about everyone except the thieves. But I guess that's ok with you.

I not even going to address the iPhone. I'm wondering why after several trips to Paris I've yet to carry a "safe purse" or safety pin my front pants pocket closed. Am I naive or lucky? Or just from New York?

Who knew Paris was so unsafe for Americans? Oh, the humanity! When I return in the fall, I'll be extra careful to stay away from Starbucks. Zero intentions to order a grande nonfat pumpkin latte in Paris.

RobertaL, No one in their right mind messes with New Yorkers. This from a California girl with a native New Yorker for a MIL.

I not even going to address the iPhone. I'm wondering why after several trips to Paris I've yet to carry a "safe purse" or safety pin my front pants pocket closed. Am I naive or lucky?>

both IMO - but it depends on what you have in your pants - your pants may well have been entered by a pickpockets hand and you did not even know it - carry an i-phone in there half exposed and you are inviting problems.

Very often the same absent minded American tourists who get robbed thanks to their own carelessness are also the same people who are so eager to give the gypsy beggars who beg for money on the streets of Paris pretending to be deaf and dumb or pretend to find a gold ring in front of you as you walk down the street and offer it to you for a price of course. These people come from eastern Europe but make lots of money in Paris thanks to the stupid American tourists visiting Paris. Thanks to these clueless tourists those of us who live in Paris must put up with this trash endlessly. This post ought to make me very popular on this forum but expats living here know I speak the truth.

Your Lucky.... In San Francisco , the Low Lifes just Punch You In The Face and take your phone or lap top. Sometimes they get caught if your phone or laptop has a GPS that can pinpoint where your stuff is. When caught, they usually have about 5,6 or 7 of them. They fence them for about $80 bucks, or less. Never walk around with it out in the open,,, treat it as 5 One Hundred Bills waving around in your hand while you walk through LoliPop Lane,holding hands with Shirley Temple.

Right on Larry and ocn!!!

How do these thieves know you are an American tourist,, cause, Canadains look just like you, wear same brand clothes, and most of us have similar accents etc,, so why or why to people like RoadyWarrior always have this "American " persecution complex?
RoadyWarrior
Sorry this happened to your daughter and it would be scary for anyone let alone a child,, but I think you are vengefully painting a whole city black because of this one event. My friend was killed in Hawaii,, yet even I was not as stupid to blame Hawaii,, so sorry, my sympathy extends only to your daughters trama, not to your ridiculus rant against Paris.
PS,American cops never did solve my friends murder,, maybe because she was only a Canadian?? ( and yes, I am being sarcastic)

> Paris buses even have a lengthy warning posted in French, English, Spanish and Chinese about being very careful with one's "electronic devices."

As far as I have seen (every time I have takes Paris bus in recent years - months) the Asian language was Japanese and not Chinese. Just for the record.

<Very often the same absent minded American tourists who get robbed thanks to their own carelessness are also>

Bogus charge to make across the board - my friend whose i-phone was stolen inside a McDonalds was not careless - he was sitting there and all of a sudden two younger Romani if you have it gals came up to him all of a sudden and thrust a sheet of paper in front of him to read - probably the deaf mute scam - in a flash the other gal took the phone.

This was not absent-minded nor careless IMO and to characterize it as that is in my opinion rubbish. Yeh some are careless (like Robertal above) but many are not and events happen so so fast - this is why warnings are so so important so folks can be on guard. and this is why I find naive postings like Robertal's are so harmful - saying I never take precautions and never been victimized or the other day someone who claims to have been to Paris over 100 times and claims they never even heard of a gypsy problem or problem with street crime in general.

Highlighting the problem helps reduce the problem for tourists and then after reading the warnings yes only the careless will be victimized.

I blame the city of Paris for allowing these things to happen time and time again.

When did I say I never take precautions? Why would my post be harmful? I was questioning the safety pinning of pants pockets.

I'm aware of my surroundings in Paris. I have been approached by deaf/mute scammers many times and ignore them. My handbag is carried close to my body and I am careful when riding the metro and walking around. IMO this is sufficient in any big city.

<Paris is not a safe place for Americans> is an extreme statement made by a previous poster.

<<or the other day someone who claims to have been to Paris over 100 times and claims they never even heard of a gypsy problem or problem with street crime in general.>>

Please learn to read, Pal. That is NOT what I said. I said very specifically that I personally had never had a problem.

Sorry St Cirq I was sure in the other thread about Gypsies - that was subsequently deleted - that you said you had never heard of it? I guess I recalled wrongly - right? You did not say in that gone thread you have never heard of any problem with gypsies in Paris - I would be my next trip to Paris on it that you did but I will have to say I must be wrong - right?

My apologies for putting words in your mouth if that is the case.

Pal, I specifically said in that thread something along the lines of it would be practically impossible to visit Paris without noticing the "gypsies," the scams, etc. - and it is; you'd have to be blind - but that it had never translated into any sort of problem, or confrontation even, in my case. I believe I also said I had never heard of anyone sustaining injuries as a result of such a confrontation - I still haven't.

It is truly unfair to characterize American tourists as careless or clueless.

Experience comes with travel. Some of you have just been very lucky. Repeat visitors aren't usually at the major sights where the thieves flock. People who do not live in urban areas but live where such incidents just do not occur are simply not practiced in "being aware of your surroundings".

Petty thieves in Paris have increased in their numbers and aggressiveness in recent years and there is virtually nothing being done about it.

Stcirq - you have my apology for misquoting and you do understand that anyone who has been there so so much would have to realize there is a dicey problem with some Gypsies and to always be on guard when they approach - fairly or unfairly as likely the ones coming up are up to no good.

I have never heard of anyone being injured by Gypsies - just countless scams and thefts that I have known about since 1969 the first time I came to Paris and a little gypsy gal who seemed so playful stuck her hands in my back pocket.

so we agree on that - sorry for my misunderstanding - I just could not really believe that anyone visiting so long could say they never heard of the problem - and your have cleared that up so we are both on the same page - beware any Gypsy (and anyone unfortunately) coming up to you with a map asking you questions, thrusting a "I'm a deaf mute sob story letter in front of you, etc.

Knowledge of the problem IMO greatly lessens it!

Well I didn't notice as many scammers, beggers , petition girls, romani,, what ever you wish to call them on this summers visit as I did two years ago,, 10 days and not even a ring trick! And I was looking, lol

They were probably all at the Olympics!

Thank you PalenQ for your support. I fully expected an onslaught of attacks on me and my daughter for our "carelessness" so the fact that indeed happened does not surprise me. Some people can be mean and rude.
But as a parent, if I were traveling to Paris, I would want to know. And I think that sharing information about experiences, both good and bad, is what this forum is all about.
What surprised me the most about this trip is that, after dealing with the police, it seemed the police in France really could care less. At least I know, now, not to let my daughter come to Paris on her own (as an exchange student or after high school) because I am not confident if she were to be assaulted again, that anything would be taken seriously.
For those of you who have traveled and never had anything bad happen to you or your children, that is good. I am glad, but it is my obligation to let families with children know that the security from the police was not very good in our case.
It is not unreasonable to expect to have it taken more seriously when a child is assaulted and then robbed.
As far as the Starbucks in which it happened, they were supposed to take a report. If Starbucks or McDonalds or the Gap, or any other store with a big profit margin and big name, knows their customers are being assaulted inside their stores, they too have an obligation to do something. Just posting signs warning people is not sufficient in my opinion.
To say, (like some of these posters here) "you were warned" or "don't come back" demonstrates the common belief that it is the victim who is to blame or that visitors who have valid complaint/concerns aren't welcome. But those statements are designed to deflect and designed to absolve the police and businesses from their obligation to protect their visitors/customers.
I got back on this forum today because I did complain to corporate and I wanted to follow up with how Starbucks responded.
I suggested that if their international stores fail to align themselves with the business practices that is expected of all Starbucks, then they should remove their name from the cafe. They are investigating the incident because, as I suspected, their store manager was supposed to take a report of the incident. The corporate office also was surprised that the staff did not take a report. They said that since the incident took place within their store, with cameras inside and out, more should have been done after the assault and robbery. I want to give out a kudos to the corporate office for taking the time to follow up on this and it has changed my opinion of Starbucks and how serious they are about their safety of their customers while inside their store. In fact we noticed some of the grocery stores and other shops had a security person, so at a maximum Starbucks can have a security guard at the door or at a minimum retrain the staff about reports and have them be more vigilant about the safety of customers.

I'm happy to hear Starbucks got back to you positively.

my desf mute spoke when asking me to sign.

Roady, as others have said this has nothing to do with being clueless, or even being at Starbucks.

A friend who was living in Paris several years ago had hers snatched from a sidewalk cafe table. Apparently not much has changed!

Roady, having had your child assaulted changes the way you look at everything. If you have not had issues with this previously, you now feel vulnerable and possibly feel that, if this horrible thing could happen, what else will happen. It may take you and your family some time to trust again. Best of luck.

We just returned from Paris. My 15 year old daughter also had her IPhone forcefully removed from front pocket by a pack of gypsy teens covering her face with paper right outside of St Chappelle. Luckily we spotted the phone in the pack. My son and I grabbed the one who was holding the phone and got it back.

Scams are a really big problem in Paris. On a trip to Musee Orsay the next day, we got approached by the Gold Ring scam 4 times. We knew better and just laughed it off. One time at the ATM, a gypsy girl appeared out of nowhere while I was typing my PIN number. I am not sure what she was trying to do, but we had to forcefully push her away. Another tried to sell us used Metro tickets. Really a shame.

I disagree with STCirq about injuries. I would guess a 15 year old child can be psychologially injured by such an attack for a long time. At her age, her phone is one of her prized possessions.

I hope Paris authorities come up with a way to solve this problem. I am not sure why they are turning the other way. Maybe they see it as an American phone, so who cares. Paris's reputation is really getting harmed. Loved the city otherwise. BTW. I didn't experience scams at all in Rome the next week.

My friend's daughter had her phone stolen out of her hand by a group of teens while entering her dorm at University of Alabama last year. This can happen anywhere.

In Alabama,, really. I thought the States was crime free.

Roady, when your kids turn 18 you don't really have to right to refuse to let them do things like enroll in exchange programs. I guess you hold the purse strings though.

<<I disagree with STCirq about injuries. I would guess a 15 year old child can be psychologially injured by such an attack for a long time. At her age, her phone is one of her prized possessions. >>

Loss of a cellphone is a psychological injury that could last for a long time?

Only in America. Please do stay away from Europe. It's bound to cause you deep psychological injuries you may spend a lifetime recovering from.

Our 22-year-old neighbor had a cell phone snatched off him right here in our DC neighborhood.Happens all the time, and no one needs counseling or a suggestion to stay away from DC. You walk around with junk that costs a small fortune and is of tremendous appeal to thiefs and you'll be targeted. You walk around with it and don't take any precautions, you're even more of a target. Deal with it or stay home.

Yeah iPods and iPhones have caused muggings in NY.

Just as its not a good idea to be in certain places with a Rolex.

Some of you are very cold and judgmental. The difference is in Alabama or DC, if your minor child is assaulted and robbed, the police generally take it seriously.
Comments like, "Stay away, then" do beautiful Paris no favors. This is a Fodor's travel forum designed to share travel experiences. Paris police need to do more about the crime and take reports of assault more seriously. And people like me need to share their experience so that others know the truth.
Today, we spoke with a local. Even she said the Paris she knows today is not the same anymore because of the crime. And she grew up there.

My friend of the stolen iPhone had been living there for four years. She finally got fed up with the attitudes of the bureaucracy, Parisians in general, & Gypsies (yes multiple attempts of the same scams in the space of hours). The theft was pretty much the last straw. She's back now.

No , I am not cold, I would be upset if my child was assalted too, and I think a person, child or not , could be very shaken, but the OP annoyed me with her blanket statements about a city,, as I said, I KNOW crime happens everywhere, and my example was as bad as it can get, and yet I realize its not the city or the police that can be blamed for the acts of a few nuts.
Some may say well its not a few,, but sorry, I took my bf to Paris just this past summer, and I warned him all about pickpockets, gypsies, scams , etc etc, and after a few days he started laughing at me becuase we never got to see any of the things I had warned him about,, just one poor begger woman on the stairs to the bathroom in front of Notre Dame. So sorry, Paris is not a hotbed of violent crime and totally lawless.. its just not. I manage solo there, and I would be much more afraid in dozens of American cities .

Ps .. this story has really morphed in the violence factor too, the girl was not actually physically assaulted, she had papers shoved at her( to hide their hands stealing) and was yelled at,, upsetting, YES , ABSOLUTELY, but she was not physically assaulted..

Great sympathy for the OP, Roady and the others here. Leaving a possession unattended is one thing, but being assaulted and robbed is another entirely. If it'd been my 14 or 15 year old daughter assaulted and robbed, I could only hope that I'd be able to exercise sufficient restraint in the event that I was to apprehend the low-life responsible.

And that's why I travel with my dogs!

Rowdy--I was not trying to be cold or judgmental. I was just trying to explain that this is happening everywhere. You are right that the Tuscaloosa police did respond, but how important is that in actuality? At most the police get her phone back, but she has been through a scary experience regardless.

It would be a shame to not visit a fantastic city ever again because of one bad experience. Just do what I do and carry a crummy phone that no one would ever want to steal.

Just to amuse I dropped this thread into $illyCoffee corporate in Paris to see if they have a comment. So far no response but if anyone ever gets back to me I'll let you know.

I didn't bother to send it to Paris Police as I'm bored of hearing Je suis desolee... which means a great deal less than you would think and in anglosaxon too.

You did us all a great service by posting this thread Maur, and others who responded with their own experiences. For anyone scoffing at the prevalence and/or insinuating it is somehow the victim's fault, please read this NY Times article. Smart phones have at changed crime in Paris, startlingly so. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/world/europe/09paris.html

I'll have my iPhone with me as it does contain all important information I may need while traveling....UNLIKE a cheap substitute bought just for a trip. All pertinent info about me, (health, meds, contacts in case of emergency) is found in the ICE app. All travel related info...flights, train and hotel reservations is stored in an e-mail file as a back up to hard copies. All credit card numbers (accounts and phone #s), insurance info, fund account #s, bank acc't #s, passwords etc are stored in a password protected app. The phone will also be password protected as added security while in Paris. It can be locked and wiped clean remotely, protecting critical information. I use it as my camera, but after reading the above, then googling "iPhone theft in Paris", I won't. It will still go with me to Paris, but will be secured in the hotel safe while we are out and about. Too bad. Rather than jump all over those who posted experiences, and insinuating that they are inexperienced travelers, I would suggest doing your own Internet search on the problem. It's an eye opener! I even learned a new French phrase, "poings americains". Terrific. Thanks again for the heads up!

I can't imagine leaving an iPhone on a table even for a second in a restaurant anywhere touristy really. I know I have mine in my hand or back in a zippered pocket of my purse even here at home.

We did see gypsies in the Ponte Neouf as well as Notre Dame and in front of the Louvre. They were all doing that wave a paper in front of your face thing. My husband decided the best thing to do was to yell at them in Klingon if they approached, and he was right! They backed off really quickly, probably thinking he was crazy. At one point, though, I was on one side of the street with the kids and he was on the other and three of them started circling me. Very creepy, I felt like a wounded dolphin in the ocean surrounded by sharks. I did have to yell at them and then they did back off, and that was the worst we experienced. I saw a few French men and shopkeepers yelling at them too, so it's not true that the Parisians turn their back on the problem.

I think the difference between American city and Paris experiences is the volume and concentration of attacks/scams. I was only in Paris for 4 full days and we were attacked once and scam attempts at least 5 times. I spent 3 weeks in Chicago, New York, and Detroit this year. I never felt threatened or encountered anything more that a bum with a cup.

Many people know someone who had something stolen at some time. That is not the point. Also the nature of the incidents in Paris are beyond normal unaware pickpocketing. Her phone was buried in her front pocket and it was forcefully removed with assistance due to it was tightly wedged.

You walk around with it and don't take any precautions, you're even more of a target>

Once again blaming the victim!We just returned from Paris.

And St Cirq (who has pooh-poohed the Gypsy problem in Paris in the past) - this is what happened and what you DARE call careless - you are totally unfeeling and your remarks are simply rude and you owe them an apology IMO - here is what happened and which you call careless:

<My 15 year old daughter also had her IPhone forcefully removed from front pocket by a pack of gypsy teens covering her face with paper right outside of St Chappelle. Luckily we spotted the phone in the pack. My son and I grabbed the one who was holding the phone and got it back.>

St Cirq how was this careless on behalf of the victim and her family?

And what sage advice does St Cirq give the victims - <Deal with it or stay home.>

I am sorry but blaming the victim in this situation is just so so unfeeling - rather autistic IMO.

Sometimes I wish this forum had a "like" button. Would click it under OO's post

I was in Paris last June for 2 hours and encountered the ring scam 4 times! I also encountered the gypsy girls. I have lived in New York for 41 years and have never once been approached or threatened. Strange huh?

LIKE OOO

That post by St Cirq was shocking. I guess it has been removed?

Thieves know that Starbucks and McD have free wi-fi and that laptops and smartphones will be out.

This happens regularly around the world, just a quick google of laptop theft Starbucks should prove that.

The reaction of the French police is different than you will find elsewhere, though.

Here's an example from NYC.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/30/nyregion/here-comes-your-starbucks-latte-there-goes-your-laptop.html

OO--I didn't say I bought a cheap substitute phone for a trip. That's my regular phone.

Sorry digbydog, I apologize for reading more into that than intended--people do buy cheap phones just for trips, but I misread you. Between first writing here and now though, you have given me an idea. Openly flaunt DH's awful Tracfone with its battery life of 10 minutes, whose keyboard no longer allows the letter "b" to be typed, and looks as if it's been dragged through the streets. No thief will come near us on seeing that, ensuring the safety of the rest of our possessions for the duration of the trip.

That post by St Cirq was shocking. I guess it has been removed?>

Nope - look Aug 28 12:28am and see this sorry lambasting of a 15 yr-old girl whose crime was she had her cell phone in her pants pocket!

showing no empathy at all for the victims!

Incroyable!

I still can't figure out who got "assaulted"?

<My 15 year old daughter also had her IPhone forcefully removed from front pocket by a pack of gypsy teens covering her face with paper right outside of St Chappelle.>

does this sound like an assault - does to me - anyone covering my face with paper and forcefully taking things out of my pockets I would consider an assault and so would most IF it happened to them.

A completely different experience by poster NeoPatrick:

Let me start by saying today was the first time I was ever pickpocketed. It's been attempted before, but I thought I was pretty savvy about the whole thing. And after posting on one of the other Paris scam threads just this morning, I thought I was well aware of situations. But the real point of this thread is partially to point out a few things that may not match what others have posted recently in regards to "what happens" or "the police can't do anything" and similar thoughts.

read more > http://tinyurl.com/8oxej53

PalenQ--not sure about French law, but under American law, once you are touched, it is not simply an assault, but a battery.

Assault - any intentional act that causes another person to fear that they're about to suffer physical harm. Being surrounded by a gang, papers shoved in the face, and hands in the pockets. I think 'fear' is an understatement.

So pickpocketing counts as "assault & battery" because you are touched?

Suze--here's a definition of battery:

"The following elements must be proven to establish a case for battery: (1) an act by a defendant; (2) an intent to cause harmful or offensive contact on the part of the defendant; and (3) harmful or offensive contact to the plaintiff.

type of contact that may constitute battery causes no actual physical harm but is, instead, offensive or insulting to the victim. Examples include spitting in someone's face or offensively touching someone against his or her will.

Touching the person of someone is defined as including not only contacts with the body, but also with anything closely connected with the body, such as clothing or an item carried in the person's hand. For example, a battery may be committed by intentionally knocking a hat off someone's head or knocking a glass out of some-one's hand."

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Battery+(disambiguation)

It seemed to me that people were grateful for the initial warning, and then it went sideways when the OP warned that Paris was not safe for Americans. Those kinds of silly hyperbolic statements *always* result in a down-the-drain trajectory in Fodor threads. The OP had no way of knowing that, since she's new. Maybe cut her some slack??

For more on assault: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/assault

Assault=actions that cause you to fear harm.

Battery=unlawful touching causing harm.

Harm does not have to be physical injury. Jostling someone or spitting can be considered battery. I'm guessing the mustard trick would count as battery.

I suppose if the thief was done without the person feeling it at all you could say it wasn't battery.

In California the taking of property from a person by force or threat would be robbery.

Well call me crazy, but you're not supposed to leave stuff sitting on a cafe table in a public place ever... not your purse, your iphone, your camera, whatever.

While the OP is a good reminder it's not particularly upsetting to me because they kind of walked right into it.

And no I'm not "blaming the victim" but I feel the same when people get their car windows smashed and a purse, laptop or phone stolen after they leave it sitting visible in their parked car here in Seattle.

Oops. Just caught my error. OP never said that; another poster did. Sorry!

THEY WERE ON THE SECOND FLOOR OF A RESTAURANT. They had a team of thieves run upstairs and create a diversion and theft.

It's ridiculous to shift the blame to the victims.

If their phones hadn't been laying on the table, it wouldn't have happened.

And if they had not been working on their laptops--and if Starbucks had not had free wi-fi--their laptops would not have been stolen.

Heck, ignore the fact that there are decent, hardworking people who depend on Starbucks WiFi for their living or for student term papers.

And while we're at it, let's make sure we cover all possible victims who are stupid enough to live...

...If I wasn't walking down the street, the car with the drunk driver would not have run up on the curb and hit me.

...If I hadn't eaten the food in the restaurant, I would not have gotten food poisoning.

...If I hadn't been waiting for the subway, no one could have pushed me on to the tracks.

Bless you 00 and PalenQ and others for creating a "reality check" about civility that is often so lacking, as exemplified by some really unnecessary hostile comments.

To the OP and those who shared their experiences in hopes that other travelers would not be victimized, thank you. I hope you are not discouraged from further helpful postings. There are a lot of really nice people on this board who value facts and good intentions.

You guys are mixing up abunch of different stories. The OPS daughter was not assaulted. She was distracted and had her phone stolen off the table. Simple.

Then some others chimed in with other tales.

And as clearly said, the warning was one thing, the ranting about how unsafe Paris is was another. Its safer then most cities of its size.

The OP said it herself. I thought that was the point of the story:
<Just wanted to warn you to keep your phone in your hands or purse at all times.>

Years ago someone posted here about their purse being stolen in a train station, they had set it on top of their suitcase, got distracted by something, turned away, came back and it was gone.

Or the ever-popular hanging your purse over the back of a chair in an outdoor cafe.

These are not the same as getting physically assaulted or exaggerated examples of misfortunate like someone pushing you on to the metro tracks or getting run over by a drunk driver.

These are all when your lack of attention gave a crook a chance to take advantage of the situation.

And as clearly said, the warning was one thing, the ranting about how unsafe Paris is was another. Its safer then most cities of its size.>

I've been to Paris many times - hundreds of times and I disagree with Paris being about the same safety wise as other cities. There have been countless posts here of scams and thefts - lots of scams with watches being sold, etc.

German cities have little of this problem IME
Austrian cities have little problem
Swiss cities have nearly none IME
Even British cities - even London IME has much less of a problem
Scandinavia cities have little problem
French cities outside Paris have little problem

Paris IME does have more of a problem than many large cities - why - IMO because so so many tourists come here - naive tourists often who are easy prey - certain types may flock here from other countries to take advantage of the huge number of tourists.

Only Spain and Italy IME have more of a problem - Spain by far with Madrid and Barcelona even having lots of muggings - rare in Paris or elsewhere - a true mugging American style.

You should be careful everywhere IMO but more vigilant in Paris - I have seen pickpockets running up before the automatic gates letting folks into the metro and putting their hands in bags - the tourist thinks the guy is just trying to get a free ride on the metro by squeezing thru at the same time - and now an onslaught of reports of thefts of I phones and similar devices from even inside places like Starbucks and MacDonalds - places I previously thought I was very safe...

Paris due to it being a tourist mecca presents IME and IMO may of a pickpocket and petty street crime thing than other cities do.

That's my take anyway!

I was referring to personal safety. You are personally safer in Paris then most large cities.. as a woman who has travelled solo I find it much safe then LA, Toronto, Vancouver , and frankly even my own city which has streets littered with crack heads( winos passed out here and there are not as nearly as scary as a crack head tweaking,, trust me on that unless you have personal experience with that! )

98% of pickpocketing incidents in Paris happen undiscovered till you reach for your wallet! Pickpockets usually operate by stealth, although they can occaisonally pull these aggressive distraction tactics.

Are pickpockets a problem in Paris, hell yeah, but they are MOSTLY avoidable problems if one is prepared and alert to the situations.

I was referring to personal safety. You are personally safer in Paris then most large cities.. as a woman who has travelled solo I find it much safe then LA, Toronto, Vancouver , and frankly even my own city which has streets littered with crack heads( winos passed out here and there are not as nearly as scary as a crack head tweaking,, trust me on that unless you have personal experience with that! )

98% of pickpocketing incidents in Paris happen undiscovered till you reach for your wallet! Pickpockets usually operate by stealth, although they can occaisonally pull these aggressive distraction tactics.

Are pickpockets a problem in Paris, hell yeah, but they are MOSTLY avoidable problems if one is prepared and alert to the situations.

Ok clarified with personal safety of your body I agree - Paris is safer than most American cities and about the same as most European cities apart from Spain - the unsafest cities in Europe being Barcelona and Madrid IME - by far - physically unsafe (and a close relative of mine got bruised and bloodied in Madrid!)

PalenQ - Am I missing something or did you use the phrase "rather autistic" to describe being unfeeling? On Aug 28th, at 11:56am? The post has obviously gotten tempers flaring, but given your objections to the unfeeling nature of the posts, I'm surprised you'd use that terminology. I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't call someone retarded, right? That's moved out of our collective language as appropriate. Autism goes well beyond a lack of feeling. With a stepson who will need lifelong care, who can't talk and can't be left alone, I find your wording surprising and offensive. And unfortunately, it demeans the message to start with.

PalenQ--

I think we are exactly on the same page on this issue:

--I don't think I'm going to be gunned down in the streets in Paris.
--I don't think someone is going to pull me into an alley and rape me.

But for others who have not experienced it to say that the approach by those teens on the bridge I encountered last fall (I'm a Paris diehard!)was not aggressive, it's not so. It was terribly aggressive.

This uptick in activity is relatively new. I really did believe I could avoid most instances of crime. If somoneone even started on one of the basic cons--the gold ring, etc--I'd just shake my head with a wry smile and they left me along.

I was totally shocked in November 2011 that it even occurred. Yeah, city girl that I am, my adrenaline went into overdrive and I dealt with the situation quickly (and I think I scared the heck out of the teens who attacked me)**, but part of me was thinking, "Paris? I'm experiencing this in Paris? MY Paris?"

In other words, if you think for one second this is not happening or that one is "superior" because it did not occur to you yet, you are the person who is naive.

Again--we're not talking your average pickpockets or cons. We're talking entire invasions of premises (Starbucks in more than a couple of Paris locations) and collective aggressive distractions (the bridge petition thing and the ATM phone/wallet surround theft).

It's really a shame. I hope Paris police can get a handle on it.

**I used to hike with my two little ones in US parks where grizzlies and mountain lions could pose threats. We used to practice acting "bigger", which is a suggested defense tactic. Find it funny that my instinctive reaction to these teens was to "swell". Of course, given my weight gain over the past 20 years, that was sort of easy.

dunia - I understand your anger - and to me I think the word 'autistic' simply in this context refers to someone who cannot empathize with the victim and the horrible things that happened to her (the one blindsided by teens who put paper over her face and robbed her) - the poster said it was her careless fault, etc.

I in no way wanted to use Autistic - with a capital A in that case perhaps but I genuinely use the word 'autistic' to describe someone unable to show feelings for someone else - not referring to the disease - at least I did not think I was doing that

like I could say someone was kind of 'paranoid' without meaning they were a Paranoid Schizophrenic, etc.

So sorry about that and I will look up the generic word autism to make sure it does not automatically refer to Autism.

You have my apologies for any hurt I may have caused, without any intention to do so.

dunia - a Washington Times columnist faced the same accusations and explains her use of autism like I do -
I use "autistic" because I don't see autism as an affliction but rather as a character or physical trait (such as blond, nice, intelligent or short) or as a major life characteristic (such as religion or race).>

Exactly the way I use the word and that I think is appropo to the poster above who said the victim was careless and to just don't leave home if they can't cope with being assaulted, etcd - an autistic stance that seems not to be able to relate what horror the victim went thru, etc.

Anyway thanks for bringing that to my attention so I can reconsider the use.

The full text of the Washington Times article:

SILVER SPRING, Md. — When I write here, I use the words "person with autism" and "autistic person" pretty interchangeably. Every once in a while, this column gets a comment telling me I should use "person first" language, meaning I shouldn't use the word "autistic" to describe a person.
Because I've heard this criticism more than once, I feel it necessary to tell you that I not only use the word "autistic" intentionally, but thoughtfully and with purpose.


The theory behind person-first language ("person with autism") is that it recognizes the person before the disability and stresses that there is more to a person than just autism. I asked my blog readers and my Twitter followers which they preferred, and the majority, mostly parents of children with autism, reported that they prefer the person-first terminology.

Person-first language is an easy philosophy to accept. It makes complete sense, and I find it to be a perfectly reasonable way of thought. However, I tend not to prefer it. The reasons for rejecting person-first are more complicated, but, I believe, equally valid.

I use the adjective "autistic" for several reasons. I have taken my cues from many autistic adults who self-identify as autistic. For these individuals, autism is simply a part of them that cannot be separated from who they are. Autism is, in a way, a description of how their brains work, not something that has been added to their being. Without autism, they would not be the same person; therefore it is not something they have, but rather something they are.

Autistic adult and autism activist Jim Sinclair wrote a very clear, articulate essay about why he dislikes person-first language. This essay lays out why he identifies as an autistic person, and his reasons are very similar to mine.
I use "autistic" because I don't see autism as an affliction but rather as a character or physical trait (such as blond, nice, intelligent or short) or as a major life characteristic (such as religion or race). Often, person-first language refers to a disease: "living with cancer," "a person with lupus," or "has AIDS." I think this type of language, while not necessarily wrong, doesn't work with autism in that it tends to pathologize the condition, which I do not see as a disease but rather a way of being.

My entire goal with my son is to raise him as a proud autistic person. He is what he is, and that is wonderful. I want to teach him that his autism is a part of him that gives him the gift of being able to think differently. It also gives him challenges, and he needs to learn how to compensate for those shortcomings. But, I don't want him to think he has this extra thing that makes him less.

I do understand many people don't care to hear their children referred to as autistic. I respect that. When referring to other people's children — or other adults for whom I don't know their preference — I almost always use the phrase "person with autism." For my own son, or when referring to people in a group, as I've mentioned, I use them interchangeably. Once my son is old enough to have a preference, I will follow his lead and refer to him as he sees fit.

I personally subscribe to a live-and-let-live philosophy. While my beliefs lie with "autistic," I tend to use whichever phrasing works better in my sentence. I also see many people feel passionately about person-first terminology. I would like to let these people know that, when I use the term "autistic," I am not doing so with derision, nor am I making a comment on you, your child or the people you know with autism.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for people with autism and their caregivers, and, no matter what terminology I use, that will never change.

PalenQ--Since you feel compelled to do a mea culpa, I want to do the same. When I said "you" in my last post, it did NOT refer to you personally at all.

on the other hand , re: autism and being retarded (developmentally delayed or challenged ), they are two completely different condtions( although a person could be both) My nephew in college getting straight "A"s is certainly not "retarded" but certainly struggles with empathy because he has Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Austism.
So... calling someone autistic is not the same as calling them "retarded".

justineparis - didn't mean to imply autism and retarded were the same, and absolutely they are completely different conditions. It just that it seems like we've moved away from using the one term (appropriately ) and apparently not the other. If both are conditions - then why would we use either term generically to refer to a characteristic? Someone can be unfeeling, or struggle with empathy, but not be autistic. I think it doesn't add to clarity, and diminishes the argument. The article PalenQ shares above is interesting and well-stated. I don't have any problem using the phrase autistic person, assuming you're actually referring to someone on the spectrum. But if I turned to someone who's not, who is just being particularly unfeeling on that day, and said "You're being so autistic" that just sounds wrong to me...

First we had an iphone stolen and now the whole message of LOOK OUT AND BE AWARE has gone along with the iphone. Folks please get back on track and stop the tirades,miss speaking, ill defining and generalizations. Thanks to you all for thoughts and do heed the original message.

assuming you're actually referring to someone on the spectrum>

well yes I was - one person's who uncaring unfeeling comments to me were rather 'autistic' in the sense that she/he just could commisserate with the victim but actually blamed the assault (not OP's case) on the victim and told her that next time she should 'stay home' if she could not take it.

amer_can, your response is rational. Apparantly, not much room for that sorta nonsense on a thread gone bizerrrrk.

AlessandraZoe, reading your post, I wonder if what you felt that was so upsetting, is the sense of violation one feels when one has been mugged. And being mugged is what seems to have happened to you, and not a mere pickpocketing which is a far more passive experience.

You wrote:

but part of me was thinking, "Paris? I'm experiencing this in Paris? MY Paris?"

I think what you lost that day, was more than whatever money or possessions that you lost. You lost the Paris that you knew. I daresay you still love it, but I'm guessing it's not the same, it has lost, maybe not its charm, but an innocence that your brain probably told you it never had, but your heart wanted to believe it had. You can't sustain the illusion anymore, and my guess is, that you grieve for the loss of that dear illusion - am I anywhere close?

For those others who reported on this or that incident, yes, it's a good idea to remind them to keep things in perspective. But some slack is owed to those who are recent victims of crime, they are still in shock. And if it's their first encounter with a city, then their 'emotional' loss is greater, because they have no positive memories - yet - to balance the bad.

I still remember, vividly, a day now many, many years ago, when I was assaulted as a child when someone attempted to mug me for my bike. The blood has long dried, my injuries healed, and yes, I still love my city. But I remember.

These unfortunate things happen everywhere. One night when my late husband and I were walking arm in arm on the way to our car after dinner at a friend's. Someone in larceny shoes cut my shoulder bag from me.

This thread served an excellent purpose. The OP was absolutely fine. Roadywarrior, (the Paris isn't safe for Americans) however, was eye rollworthy...which is what many posters responded too.

I am sorry for those who have had to deal with the issues of pickpockets etc. It really doesn't matter how savvy you are. Much of it has to do with luck. It also can happen anywhere. We have lived in several pickpocket paradises (Budapest, Prague, PT) and my DH has been targetted, losing his whole computer bag. It happens...and it happens to locals as well as tourists.

It is just part of the landscape of the human experience and beyond taking basic precautions, there isn't much to do about it.

and my DH has been targetted, losing his whole computer bag. It happens...and it happens to locals as well as tourists.>

This is why I get so upset when someone dares blame the victim!

Always loop the phone/camera strap around your wrist. I do that even here in Oz. I was in Paris about 2 weeks ago but didn't go to Starbucks or MacDonalds. Was approached by gold ring scammers, one outside Musee D'Orsay the other Rue De Rivoli. I used a small handbag slung across my body and was extra careful in the metro, was travelling solo.

One of the good things about traveling in March was that I almost always wore a rain coat and my cross-body bag under it. Of course, I looked like I was deformed--maybe that was why the bad folks ignored us.

Maur2010, I too am sorry this happened to you and thank you for warning others.

I just can’t understand in these day and ages how people can still fall victim to such an "amateur" scam. If two people came running at me in that manner, a scam would be the first thing that came to my mind and my hands would automatically grab/hold/touch anything that i had out in the open of value. My Wife and i had a similar thing happen to us when we were walking in the tunnel under the street to walk to the coliseum. These gypsie ladies were trying to get us to hold their babies for them. Kept walking and automatically made myself aware of everything that was going on around.

Sometimes we forget and also if one is vigilant all the time, it is no longer a holiday. With the ring scam when it first happened I just waved her off thinking good luck to you if you found a gold ring. I had just enjoyed the Musee D'Orsay and was in a sublime state and scams were furthest from my mind!

<if one is vigilant all the time, it is no longer a holiday>

Sorry but I strongly disagree. You can be smart about your personal belonging and still have plenty of fun on your trip.

<Sorry but I strongly disagree. You can be smart about your personal belonging and still have plenty of fun on your trip.>

I couldn’t agree more with SUZE! Having your head in the clouds and not being aware of your surroundings is exactly how petty crimes happen! Some would say i travel with a money belt and a SMALL amount of paranoia. I say i travel smart and i NEVER miss out on memorable moments.........or my valuables.

I had read this post about 50 entries ago, and then a few days ago, found the two below entries in our local neighborhood Minnepolis journal, that contains a crime report:

- KINGFIELD

Driftwood Bar
Aug. 14, 9:50 p.m.

A man and woman were sitting on the outdoor patio of the bar when an unknown person ran by and grabbed the man’s cell phone from the table.

- LOWRY HILL EAST

Cowboy Slim’s
Aug. 19, early evening

A woman brought her phone with her into the restroom. When she went to sit down on the patio, she realized she had left the phone in the bathroom. She looked for it, but could not find it. After leaving the restaurant, she checked her Facebook page and saw that someone had accessed it and posted a rude message, confirming her suspicion that the phone was stolen.

Apparently this warning needs to be published in other areas of Fodors as well...

Definitely don't blame the victim. Even with vigilance, bad things can happen. I'm just glad no one was physically hurt, although I understand the emotional damage. It happened to us: in a country that shall remain nameless to protect the innocent (could have been anywhere), someone stole our 2 kids' backpacks out of a locked (of course) car trunk, and the lucky thief acquired some children's toys and summer reading. Unfortunately for my kids, he also acquired their treasured stuffed animals. Talk about traumatized! Yes, in the long run, parents know that wars, plagues and violence are a lot worse, but in the minds of two little children, this was about the worst thing in the world that could happen to them. Nothing like destroyed innocence. (And what do you think the police were going to do about this? We did file a report, but . . . ) Once the initial shock was over and some days had passed, we were able to talk to them and help them try to understand. That is what the OP will have to do, and hopefully one day they and their daughter will be able to return to Paris and truly enjoy the city of light.

To PalenQ
>>>Bogus charge to make across the board - my friend whose i-phone was stolen inside a McDonalds was not careless - he was sitting there and all of a sudden two younger Romani if you have it gals came up to him all of a sudden and thrust a sheet of paper in front of him to read - probably the deaf mute scam - in a flash the other gal took the phone.
This was not absent-minded nor careless IMO and to characterize it as that is in my opinion rubbish.<<<

Like anyone else you are entitled to your opinion. I will not even term it as rubbish as you do the opinions that you oppose. Obviously your friend was not holding his phone but allowed it to sit on the table unattended. In Paris tourist spots targeted by gypsies that constitutes carelessness. You and your friend need to do some research concerning foreign travel precautions and Paris in particular. Dorothy, you're not in Kansas anymore. PS: the term is not Romani either it is Roma.

Sue_xx_yy--YOU GOT IT IN ONE! I was not a victim of any theft. Nothing was stolen from me. I'm a pretty tough city girl, and I refused to fall for the verbal attack. I reacted FAST.

Again, I suspect my husband would have been the actual pickpocketing victim--and again, he was not.

But we had NEVER ever had anything happen this way in Paris. We blend in, we walk fast, we know where we're going. This was our very first loss of a feeling of personal safety in Paris.

I can't emphasize enough--We had never seen this aggressive action in Paris before. We have gone there at least once a year since 1998 and sometimes four times a year.

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RING SCAM. That stuff is totally non-aggressive, and it's not in the ballpark. Scams are passive cons that rely on a sense of greed to work. Nobody even bothers to finish a sentence with us--they just know we're not marks.

What happened was a far more aggressive "mob" thing. As PalenQ referenced, it's happening to locals. That's why the French native was so upset when he came past us. It's not the Paris he knew either, and when he said more or less he was going to notify the police across the bridge, he said it in French. As I've related, the shopowners my daughter knew in the 7th were stunned by this new trend.

And I am going to repeat this: if you are in Starbucks with free WiFi, you are going to be on your computer working. If a mob flies in surrounds you and takes your computer, how in the heck is that YOUR fault if you have both hands on it? Get REAL.

And we are certainly returning to Paris this Thanksgiving. I'm not afraid. I'm just going to start putting a brick at the bottom of my purse--and I'm practicing. And by the way, I'm tall and uh, meaty--and they're AWFULLY skinny.

Exactly AlessandraZoe, my friend who had the theft was no newbie either, but a full time resident for three years.

The swarm and grab scenario is something entirely different.

Some of our "blame the victim" posters have been to Paris once (if I am not mistaken, suze?) and don't travel with their iPod/Phones at all.

I don't see how you can call it "blaming the victim" to reiterate that people should keep hold of their belongings. Not leave phones, purses, laptops laying on a restaurant table, on the seat of a train, beside them on a park bench, whatever. That is carelessness.

And no I don't travel with electronics myself. And yes I have been to Paris. But I'm not sure why that effects this dicussion or my comments.

I don't know....I felt safe - all alone - in and out of Starbucks...could it not happen anywhere in the world? Paris seems to get bad press now and then.

BTW - I am so sorry this happened to you. What an awful experience!

Suze--I'm thinking that unless the victim is totally nude--sans purse, backpack, coat, pockets, electronics--there is just NO way you are going to accept that something bad has happened to my/our perfect Paris world that has NOTHING to do with the person or institutions that were attacked. Crime is crime. Period.

MLGB--YES.

Kelsey22--This has nothing to do with bad press--and I do appreciate your willingness to be sympathetic. I'm a Paris diehard fanatic who goes to sleep dreaming about my next meal there. In fact, I have reliably tsk-tsked people who talk about "don't ride the Metro" or "Paris taxi drivers will drive you out of the way" etc. To me, all that is utter nonsense.

Also in fact, Paris actually has gotten little bad press from a journalistic viewpoint; Madrid and Rome Metros have gotten the bad press. Mob action, particularly around entering Metro trains, has been very common in those two cities and has been relatively rare in Paris. Pickpocketing is well known on the RER B in from CDG (jetlag=unattentive traveler) and near the Eiffel Tower RER/Metro areas (same stuff). Awhile back, I believe I read about mob action near the Louvre stop, but I've certainly never witnessed it in at least once-a-year trips since 1998.

Nevertheless, no matter how upset I am about the fact that rumors have now became truth for me, I cannot repeat enough--I was not robbed and my husband was not robbed, probably because we are super street smart. People should be on the look-out.

I have NO bruises; THEY have no bruises. Yet.

And I'm starting my restaurant reservations for Thanksgiving as we speak. So anyone who uses this incident as an excuse NOT to go to Paris is even more stupid than the persons who blame victims.

@LarryJ, PalenQ is correct in referring to them as Romani.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Just for the record...not a "willingness" - I am sympathetic. It is awful to feel violated at any time, vacation or at home.

To cigalechanta

The term Romani refers to the entire ethnic group known as gypsies. Those from eastern Europe are subdivided into a group termed Roma. Technically and broadly speaking Romani is correct but those that you see in Paris are more precisely termed Roma.

Guess I escaped that one. I have still only ever made one mistake.

<Crime is crime. Period.>

I agree with that. But you can make it harder or easier for your possessions to be stolen.

Sometimes you have no control over the situation, but many times it could have been avoided by being more aware or your surroundings and cautious of where you place things of value.

That's the only point I've ever tried to make here. Has nothing to do with Paris, past or present.

It very much IS about Paris, and the recent proliferation of "swarm and grab" mob scene by talented and aggressive thieves.

These are not simple "not paying attention" pickpocketings or crimes of opportunity.

However it is also a warning about taking special care of electronics when you are at places with free wi-fi, as these are attractions for thieves world-wide. The Starbucks in upscale neighborhoods in Lima have also been a target. Of course in Lima they use pistols rather than pieces of paper.

http://archive.peruthisweek.com/news/14485

iPhones will get stolen from the seat of your locked car in about 60 seconds if you are foolish enough to leave one there in Seattle. you can trade them directly for drugs, you don't even need to pawn them for cash first.

Hi Maur2010,

First my sympathy on your misadventure. Sorry.

Recently I spent five days in Paris (don’t have an Iphone which I really regret). Then I joined a tour to Normandy and Chateaux Country which started at the Concorde Montparnasse. On the first night we had a dinner at a local bistro, basically across the street from the hotel.

Ours was the only group in a particular section of the restaurant. As we left, a woman on our tour realized that her “fanny pack” which she had placed on the floor under her seat was missing. It contained her Iphone, camera, and cash. Fortunately, her passport was back in the hotel.

The restaurant manager was unsympathetic suggesting that someone on the tour was the culprit. RIGHT. The gal and her husband spend a great deal of the tour emailing/phoning home trying to straighten out the situation because her banking info was on the cell phone.

It’s disconcerting to realize that this must have been an “inside job” at the restaurant since ours was the only group in the room.

iPhones have become so useful for traveling, I was hoping to bring mine to Paris later this year. Now, I'm not sure--what is the best strategy for keeping them safe?

I don’t see how this only has to do with Paris. I have heard about this crimes WAY more in places like Rome and Moscow. There is a HUGE difference between someone robbing you at gun point and you being fooled by a simple distraction. I would not give anyone, other than my travel companion the time of day, while on a trip. Anyone else that would try to "talk" with me to try to distract me would not even me given the time of day by me.

ginitown,
In a nut shell, bring your iPod. There is no strategy needed. Keep it in your hand. I guess the only real excuse is if a huge man would come up to you and literally rip it out of your hand by brute force. I can’t think about traveling without my pod. its right up there with a camera and passport.


SUZE--sounds like you and i are the only ones that come back with all the belongings that we left home with.

Seriouly DarkMargic (lol)! I'll admit I've been lucky in that regard.

ginitown, No need to be afraid, just use it in your hand, then put it back into your purse or pocket. Don't leave it laying on a cafe table beside you. Easy.

latedaytraveller, frankly the women left her "fanny pack" on the floor and that sounds so out of the world stupid to me that I can't sympathize at all.

And for those who think this is a Paris thing, HA, try Barcelona and Rome ,, they are as bad if not worse.

These examples just bring home the point, you shouldn't leave your stuff laying around when you travel. Putting something on the floor under your chair at a restaurant, well just don't do that.

I think that just about everything that had to be said was said (and more!), but I'd still like to weigh in.

I empathize with the OP (I won't even deign to comment on the silly "Paris is not safe for Americans" warning, with the attendant implication that Paris is any safer for Australians or Russians, please!) and am very sorry about your experience. It can happen everywhere and it's doubly worse when it happens on a trip that you have awaited with such impatience. And no, when you are assailed in such a way, your reaction might let you down and you may not automatically think to grab all of your stuff. It's really all about luck. You can get mugged in your safe hometown and come out unscathed in the world's most dangerous city. I have known somebody who had woken up from a drunken stupor in Cambodia with his belongings intact and I have known somebody who was mugged in broad daylight in NYC.

Having said all that. Folks. There is a punishing economic crisis afoot at the momoment that is felt acutely in the Mediterranean countries of Europe. There is a fair bit of resentment with the "haves" (or at least the perceived "haves"), and Paris has in recent years been afflicted with the restive Maghreb immigrants in its banlieues. Unless you are working/studying in Paris...if you're on holidays, please, please do think twice about brandishing your valuable belongings. Although the Starbucks episode shouldn't have happened in the first place, we live in febrile times and it is best to avoid all signs of conspicuous consumption. I can tell you that I live in a metropolis that is considered very safe, and yet people here are warned to take care of their i-merchandise on public transit. I see people opening their spanking brand-new Macs on subway trains, and I think to myself "this is not wise at all." Please do exercise caution and restraint, even if you are in a Parisian Starbucks on a second floor where everyone has his and her laptop opened.

I have been to Paris several times and have never had any problems. I am, however, male and of an age that is probably not perceived as "ideal" for potential muggers. However, I have felt uncomfortable in Paris on more than one occasion. It CAN feel dicey in some areas, esp. later at night on the rather sinister-looking Metro.

Stay safe and happy travels!

How about a remote detonation app for the iphone! A signal from the server to short circuit the battery should do it. When you put it to your ear....

Personally, I think unless you have been to Paris very recently you should withhold comments.

I just returned from Paris and can verify it is very alive with packs of Roma/gypssy youth due, I believe, to the near absence of any police near tourist attractions. The thieves will approach you within minutes of leaving a Metro station with their clipboards. They also will approach you multiple times near every major tourist attraction. When we were there we got hit up at least a dozen times by clipboard gypsies, gold ring finders, used Metro ticket sellers, light my cigarette, etc.. in just 4 full days of visiting.

I know there is alot of Paris lovers who man this board and I am one of them, but this needs to be taken care of by the authorities - yesterday. I cannot stress enough what a sad detraction it is for this beautiful city I love.

BTW. Rome had a heavy police force at every major tourist attraction. I spent twice as much time there and was never approached. Not even once.

How recently? We were in Paris at the beginning of June, and ran into no Romani, but then we were not in the major tourist areas.

Europenewbie,, I was there end of July into beginnning of August, recent enough for you, lol . I had warned my boyfriend about the "gypsies" in Paris as this was his first trip overseas. After a few days there he started laughing at me and said I had exaggerated the problem , we had seen and encountered so few.

I have also been to Rome, only 3 times, but the gypsies there are absolutely just as much of a problem, they harrassed my 11 yr old daughter in Rome.

Sometimes people just see more, or occaisonally the police in either city to a run at them, and they scurry underground a bit, but they emerge after the push out within days.

Come to Prague next time! None here...they all went west!

At the end of July they were all in London no doubt!

justinparis - glad you were aware of the problem and warned your boyfriend beforehand. We were there exactly the same time you were, though. I REALLY have a hard time believing you were never approached by clipboard wielding gypsy girls. They were literally everywhere near tourist attractions pretending to solicit tourists for signatures. Perhaps you avoided tourist attractions because you have seen them on all your other visits?

I just read an article stating these girls have a leader imposed quota of 5 stolen IPhones per day per pack.

Yes, the clipboard girls exist. They were annoying during my last trip but didn't ruin it.

I'm getting an inferiority complex because I have a Samsung Galaxy which I really like. Apparently, not nice enough to steal.

Don´t believe for a second that any mobile phone is immune from theft; Nokia, Samsung, HTC, or any other.

Europenewbie, they absolutely never approached us, I saw a few, but I swear they never came near us, I tried to point them out to bf, but he almost thought I was being paranoid, lol They do not approach me for several reasons, first, I try not to stand anywhere with mouth agape, (its easy for me as a repeat visitor) , I walk with purpose( not the "stroll") , I do not stop or slow down for anyone, and after many many trips to Paris I confess to an "eat sh*t and die " facial expression and body language.. sounds harsh, but its the "big city-leave me alone" face.

Its funny some people say they are approached numerous times, others say never, I don't really know why some luck out and others seem to be magnents .

Europenewbie, they absolutely never approached us, I saw a few, but I swear they never came near us, I tried to point them out to bf, but he almost thought I was being paranoid, lol They do not approach me for several reasons, first, I try not to stand anywhere with mouth agape, (its easy for me as a repeat visitor) , I walk with purpose( not the "stroll") , I do not stop or slow down for anyone, and after many many trips to Paris I confess to an "eat sh*t and die " facial expression and body language.. sounds harsh, but its the "big city-leave me alone" face.

Its funny some people say they are approached numerous times, others say never, I don't really know why some luck out and others seem to be magnents .

Europenewbie, they absolutely never approached us, I saw a few, but I swear they never came near us, I tried to point them out to bf, but he almost thought I was being paranoid, lol They do not approach me for several reasons, first, I try not to stand anywhere with mouth agape, (its easy for me as a repeat visitor) , I walk with purpose( not the "stroll") , I do not stop or slow down for anyone, and after many many trips to Paris I confess to an "eat sh*t and die " facial expression and body language.. sounds harsh, but its the "big city-leave me alone" face.

Its funny some people say they are approached numerous times, others say never, I don't really know why some luck out and others seem to be magnents .

"I do not stop or slow down for anyone, and after many many trips to Paris I confess to an "eat sh*t and die " facial expression and body language.. sounds harsh, but its the "big city-leave me alone" face. "

There is much to be said for the "city face". I was never approached this August. I saw many of them around Opera Garnier and around the Louvre. I saw a few "ring" scams and twice I was approached by a couple (I will never know if they were really lost or not). I could see the "ring" drop metres in front of me - I never made eye contact and walked on.

I spoke to a few Parisians and they say they are often targets too.

The San Francisco Chronicle just had an article about smartphone robberies: how a smartphone is involved in 1 out of 3 robberies nationwide, 1 out of 2 robberies in the bay area, and many are violent muggings.
http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Missing-phone-tale-has-unhappy-ending-3850042.php

They are calling it "Apple picking."

It may be that these types of robberies are spiking in nearly every metropolitan area in many parts of the world.

"This is the purse snatching and drunk roll of the 21st century,"

No threat to our older Fodorites, still living unconnected in the 20th century.

Wow... a sobering reminder. I'll have my iphone with me for the trip but I will not use it when out in Paris. I haven't been to Paris in 8 years but before that managed to make about 5 trips in 6 years during the late 90s, so I've always considered myself fairly and confident when avoiding or ignoring the crowds of Roma and other pickpockets.

Only once at an obscure metro train over 10 years ago did I see a true "mob" of pickpockets and they created a huge scene and disrupted French and tourists alike. But I suspect the feverish economic times we're in now (the world over) has led to an increase in this kind of activity, and I'm just surprised to hear that it's taken on a more physical, hands-on touching more like mugging.

These topics always bring out heated emotions, and for me it's a word to the wise and I take it as generally good reminder without getting too fearful for my general safety. I still love Paris but reading posts like this certainly do diminish a little my (perhaps naive) feelings I have for the "Paris I know."

However, maybe instead of warning people to "be aware" and not leaving their electronics out---especially since thieves are getting more brazen about these incidents---perhaps the warning should be what specifically to say or do when the Roma approach, or how to position oneself in a line or in a restaurant, etc to avoid getting pinned in. I think once in Florence I was advised to push back on the Roma.... and that's really hard for an American to do because in our laws that is considered assault.

I also remember in Rome once having to scream at them by the Forum as they started to swarm around us. I had to yell in Italian for them to leave, repeatedly calling for police, and we started waving our arms around "puffing ourselves up" as though we were yelling off a mountain lion. But I'm not sure I'd remember to do that now, and even so it takes some guts and practice before doing it confidently.

There are probably things that come with the kind of awareness that I imagine people who live in big cities do anyway, and people who live in the tranquil US suburbs do rarely. But as I've read here, they're doing it to locals, too.

By the way, there are always warnings to use the hotel safe... but in searching for a hotel our last night in Paris, I read many many reviews (from several 3 and 4-star hotels) of people having things taken out of their hotel safe. (One person's safe was actually unscrewed from the wall and removed from the room.) So I think the bottom line is there's risk everywhere.

And Cigalechanta's comment that they cut her purse strap off her shoulder. I used to always worry about that when travelling in southern Italy... and then you'll hear the alternative is a purse with a wire through the strap, but you run the risk of them yanking it and causing you to fall. So there are definitely issues to worry about all around.

My personal sentiment is you're much more likely to encounter a scammer or pickpocket in a European city because they are just everywhere. In the US, you might not see that kind of swarm action, but if you are targeted it's much more likely to contain violence or a weapon.

That said, I can really empathize with the OP's sentiment of his/her child feeling victimized, whether or not her body was touched by the swarm. Nobody can know how you would act in that situation. But as a parent, it sends chills down my spine and reminds me we will need to be uber-vigilant in this trip and be prepared in ways we might respond.

It always pays to pay attention, no doubt!

We just spent 3 wonderful days in Paris in October at the end of our 2 wk trip to Europe and never had a hint of anything amiss or any cause for concern.

The closest thing to an unpleasant encounter--which was not truly problematic at all-- was when we were standing in the lobby of a large subway/rail station looking at a map kiosk. A young man came over w/an offer of "help" and we politely declined and walked away.

We went again this past Thanksgiving and did not encounter really aggressive mobbing. As a reminder, we have basically visited Paris every year since 1998, so the really aggressive mobbing we experienced in 2011 was totally new to us.

This time we did get approached by the same skinny young girls with clipboards, but it was not as manic as last year. And the same words I used last year to rather little impact DID cause them to scatter this year.

I think the police have been a bit more active. And I have heard that Starbucks has created some other types of security since its wireless feature attracted this outright aggressive theft.

As skatterfly has said, I knew to be so proactive in Rome and Madrid, making myself do the "bigger look" as one would do with a mountain lion in CA. But in Paris, I just expected a con or two--and quite frankly, the gold ring con was always cut off before it began. As soon as the person bends down, and stands up, I shake my head No.

I agree Scatterfly--I don't use hotel safes because I always thought they would be prime targets. The hotel desk safe I would assume WOULD be safe, but then again, I've never used THAT either.

I think watching electronics anywhere is a good idea. I can't tell you how many commuters have had their iPhones stolen on the DC Metro. Usually it's when the doors open at a stop and the perps wait until the doors are about to close snatch and grab the phone right when the doors close.

I also saw this years ago on the Chicago L, where a guy was pickpocketed in a packed car. He shouted at someone to catch the guy but by that time the perp was out of the station.

We also had a case just recently of a gang of juveniles menacing a group of college girls on the Metro. When one of them stole her phone she ran back and tried to grab it back-only to be punched by the other members of the gang. The Metro police blamed the victim saying she shouldn't have gone after the robber.

My point here is that crime can happen anywhere here in the US. I still ride the metro but am always cautious about taking out my phone. It's not only a Paris thing.

Well here( Canada) just saw a commerical on tv about "Electronic safety " stuff, all about people stealing your phones and laptops from public places, it showed people sitting in coffee shops etc with their ebooks or whatever being stolen or people being mugged and phones taken, and this is about HERE not Europe. I think since they made such a commercial and play it here, it is a problem here too.