Yes, very typical. You parked in a Zona Traffico Limitato, which is illegal. Whether or not you noticed the signs is irrelevant, as is whether your hotel mistakenly told you to park there. There ARE signs, even if you didn't see them. ANd yes, it's typical to get the notice months later.

"Is it typical to receive notice like this via the mail and not on the car - and this much later?"

So typical that we get at least 3 or 4 threads a month asking the same thing

I'm trying to gather information on how to avoid just such a situation, so thanks for posting Karens!

We'll be in Florence and Pisa.

Just curious... How much is the fine?

Central Florence and Pisa are both ZTLs; do *not* drive in central Florence or Pisa. You can drive into central Florence to load or unload or to park in a garage - *if* the hotel or garage notifies the authorities in advance - but you can't drive around.

Why would you want a car to start with? If you're only going to Florence and Pisa, they're both eminently walkable cities and extremely well connected by train.

Zerina - we're ultimately driving to the Nice, France area where we'll be staying for about a week after this quick trip to Florence. I have a thread going on it if you click my name.

...but here's the question and I'm not looking for a lecture on morality...what can they really do if you ignore the ticket? Can they ban you from entering a Schengen country? Does the statute of limitations eventually run out? Personally, it almost seems as if it is a tourist trap to get money from unsuspecting tourists...I know; I read all the pious discussions how you have to obey the rules hwether you like them or not. I understand that but if there was no intent to violate a law, there usually are mitigating circumstances. It seems as if in these cases, you don't get a chance to defend yourself. You are guilty as charged something alien to American law (yes I know you're not in America) so the question remains, if you don't pay the ticket, are they going to come and get you and extradite you back to Italy? Knowing the possible consequences might help you make a reasonable decision.

cynstalker, I do hope you're not planning to leave that car in France - you don't need it in Florence and Pisa, and you'll pay a hefty fee to leave it in another country.

And no, you won't get extradited, but you might never be able to rent a car in Italy again.

Already factored that cost in, StCirq - thanks. It's 265euros, and it still worked out to being cheaper than flying from Florence or Pisa to Nice and then renting the car there for the week. I have other questions in my thread if anyone has the time to click over to it. Thanks!

>>it almost seems as if it is a tourist trap to get money from unsuspecting tourists...<<

That's where you're wrong; 86% of traffic fines handed out in Florence is to Florentines and other Italians.

Some good friends that live in Florence but not in the area where residents can drive and park leave their car in a small city in the Region of Veneto where one of their family lives. They take the train back and forth when they need to use their car as even though they are Italian they received too many citations in the past when they first moved to Florence and didn't notice the restricted signs. So, as our Zerlina posted, residents of Florence and other Italians receive the citations also.

xyz - I don't know about in Italy but in the Netherlands they check to see if you have any outstanding fines when they check your passport. If you do you must pay them on the spot or not be allowed into (or sometimes out of) the country.
And because you haven't paid the fine within a set time it is doubled, then quadrupled - which gets to be seriously expensive.

Yeah but Hetismij....two things. First of all I entered the Netherlands less than a year ago through Schiphol and was entering form the UK so I had not gone through Schengen passport control so had to go through passport control there and they didn't run my passport, they just looked saw it was a USA passport, stamped it and that was that. And of course, if you enter the Netherlands overland from Belgium or Germany, there is no longer or almost never a passport check because of Schengen regulations so that seems not to matter...it seems to be a different world now. Not that I'm saying it will never happen of course.

het: You're saying they won't let you into the country if you have an unpaid parking ticket? Wow. And I thought the Iranians were tough?

You may be able to get the hotel to contact the police and let them know you were a guest. If you had to travel thru the ZTL to get to the hotel they may be able to help you out. Most drivers are aware of the common traffic laws and obey them. The ZTL's are a "horse of a different color" and there needs to be more info spread around to warn drivers.

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/i-received-a-traffic-ticket-from-florence.cfm

This is a link to an ongoing thread about traffic fines in Florence.

First they can charge ou back through the rental ar agency - which has your credit card info. Second, they could put your name on a watch list and if you try to rent another car it could be a problem.

Finally - if you parked or drove in the wrong place - why would you think you are justified in not paying? If you get a parking ticket in another state do you ignore that too? (I know some people routinely do this - they're called scofflaws.)

I know it's common exactly the scenario you describe, only because I read about it frequently here on Fodor's.

I once got a parking ticket in Montreal...I remember it very well...I didn't think it was justified and I didn't pay it...besides, the ticket was improperly filled out. It was supposed to have the color of my car. I had a red car at the time. The officer wrote rouge...sorry not my car.

The fine is 65 euros.

I do not know if we parked in the wrong place or not. I was told it was OK - I know this might not be correct - but no notice was left on the car.

nytraveler - if you are directing your questions to me: I never indicated I would not pay the ticket. Why are you assuming that?

They can't charge my credit card through my rental agency b/c I cancelled the card b/c of a different issue with the rental car agency.

When we returned our car, the guy at AutoEurope claimed we dented it. My husband said it was a scuff that could be buffed out with a cloth and wax. The guy said if my husband wanted to try that, he'd have to go get the supplies himself. My husband took a picture of the area in question (there was no indentation in the metal), and because my husband refused to sign a form, the said they would charge us an additional 50 Euro (?), for a total of about 300Euro. The charge for the "dent" was, coincidentally, about 40 Euro above the deductible.

We wrote to Auto Europe as soon as we returned home, and included the picture and a request to discuss the matter. No charge ever showed up on the credit card bill, and there was no response to our correspondence.

Three weeks ago, my credit card company flagged a charge from AutoEurope in Rome for 150 euro. We said that we did not approve this charge. We suspected that it had something to do with the "dent", but we did not rent or drive the car in, to or from Rome. I cancelled the card b/c I was unaware of why AutoEurope was charging us - the amount was different from what they wanted to charge us for the dent (and it is different from the Varenna fine). We have received no further communication from AutoEurope about any charges. We firmly believe there is no dent, but would pay if there is a scratch that cannot be buffed out (it would be a very small scratch). But before we pay anything, I need to know what exactly we are being charged for.

P.S. If you do a fodors search under Advanced Search and put the words "parking ticket" under the Europe forums, you get zero replies. There are more replies if you search "parking ticket" under all the forums, but not all that many.

<<I had a red car at the time. The officer wrote rouge...sorry not my car.>>

This is a joke, right?

karens, I can't vouch for the Fodors'search engine, but trust me, there are threads about this ALL the time.

I believe you, StCirq.

Can anyone tell me if it's common not to receive a notice on the car?

pauls - I don't think we were in a ZTL zone - in the Cinque Terre, we needed a card from the hotel to lift up an arm-thing (sorry don't know what it's called) to be allowed passage onto the street. Is this the type of zone you are describing?

St. cirq...well I never paid the fine nor did I ever hear from the Montreal police again so there has to be some reason....maybe the wrong color of the car was it? (Yes it's a joke of course)

karens: The trick is to click the >>Search full topic and replies<< box. I just searched >>"parking ticket"<< (w/ the quotes), for Europe + Italy + a 3 year range and got more than 25 hits. I didn't page forward to see how many more were listed in total, but probably lots just looking at the dates.

"Can anyone tell me if it's common not to receive a notice on the car?"

Totally -- they partly do it by camera and just need the number plate. No need to place a ticket on the windscreen.

They even catch folks who aren't parked -- just for driving in prohibited areas. If your car shows up . . . You get a citation.

Well, karens, I admit I'm a bit perplexed now, but my experience with those "arm things" is unique to France, and whenever I've been at a hotel that gave me the key to make one of those arm things go up (or a borne on the street to go down so you could pass), the parking once you got past it was totally legal.

It IS definitely totally normal not to get an actual ticket on the car.

StCirq: I think the OP is talking about two different places. The ticket was issued in Varenna on Lake Como, while the 'arm thing' was apparently in the C-T.

karens - You seem to not know the difference between AutoEurope and who you rented the car from. AutoEurope is a broker like Expedia. You would not have picked up or returned a car to them even if you booked with them. You would have picked up your car from one of the many car rental agencies they represent. I'm not sure who you complained to about the dent when you returned either as your post doesn't make sense since you are confusing agencies.

>>>Three weeks ago, my credit card company flagged a charge from AutoEurope in Rome for 150 euro. We said that we did not approve this charge<<<

This charge could have been totally legitimate, but you don't seem to know or have bothered to find out what it was for. In your rental car agreement you signed, you agreed to pay a fee to the rental car company if they had to provide your information to the police. This fee varies (30-50€ each infraction) depending on which company you rented from (not AutoEurope the broker, the actual rental car company). The 150€ could have been to provide your info to the police for perhaps multiple tickets. Some fee collection is contracted out so perhaps the company hired by the police is in Rome. This fee is also on car rental agreements in the US, but doesn't happen as often since the US doesn't use cameras as much.

karens - just a tip for another time when you rent a car. We take heaps of photos of the car before we drive it out of their lot - with the date on and showing that it is in their car lot. We then take another batch of photos when we drop the car off. We haven't had a problem so far.

janisj: I admit I'm confused. It seems there are two separate issues.

cathies: I do the same thing now and haven't had a problem that wasn't disputable, with me winning the dispute.

It sounds like it may be a parking ticket, not a ZTL violation. I would still contact the hotel and see if they can't help esp. since they directed you to the parking spot.

<<This charge could have been totally legitimate, but you don't seem to know or have bothered to find out what it was for.

It could be legitimate. It also could not be. If it is, we will pay it.

We e-mailed AutoEurope and both AutoEurope and the car rental company have my address and phone number. If AutoEurope is trying to charge my credit card, it is not unreasonable to expect to receive a bill or an explanation of what the charges are for.

And yes, these are two separate issues, and paul, I don't know what a ZTL violation is. The document is titled: Notice of Payment Before the Notification and indicates the car was "parked inside built-up area in a forbidden zone".

The location of the violation was Varenna and it does say somethign about an outsourcing agency in Firenze - nothing about anything in Rome.

All about ZTL:

http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/driving/traffic_cameras_speeding.htm

>>>It sounds like it may be a parking ticket, not a ZTL violation<<<

It sounds like it could be both. ZTL=forbidden zone. She could get a ticket for simply being in the ZTL and a parking ticket since she wasn't authorized to be in the area or the parking lot.

>>>If AutoEurope is trying to charge my credit card, it is not unreasonable to expect to receive a bill or an explanation of what the charges are for.<<<
>>>Three weeks ago, my credit card company flagged a charge from AutoEurope in Rome for 150 euro.<<<

Read your rental agreement. Just because your credit card company flagged the charge, doesn't mean you don't owe it. Hard to believe you canceled the card without finding out exactly what the charge was. You assumed it had something to do with the dent, but it might not. You agreed to certain fees (you don't have to authorize them at a later date because you did when you signed the agreement). One of the agreed fees in the rental contract is to charge your credit card 30-50€ (read your agreement) to provide your info. If they were charging for providing your info to the police, YOU AGREED for them to do that. If that is what the charges were for (you didn't bother to find out) then you are in violation of your rental agreement and they can go after you for it and attempt to get their money by other means. Doesn't mean they will.

If you drove in Italy without knowing road signs (especially ZTL signs) then you could be getting multiple tickets. Most towns (even little hill towns) in Italy have ZTL (areas you are forbidden to enter) with cameras snapping your license plate. There can be multiple cameras within the zone. Every time you pass a camera is another ticket. There are easily 30 cameras in Florence's ZTL. The Italian police supposedly have a year to send these tickets. Charges by the rental car company for providing your info usually take several months to appear as the police don't contact them immediately.

"If you drove in Italy without knowing road signs . . . . then you could be getting multiple tickets"

That is definitely true -- you could be getting even more tickets in the next few months.

We know how to read road signs, we knew about parking within blue or white lines, etc. As I said (I think twice), we didn't think to check where we parked outside our hotel in Varenna b/c we were told it was OK to park along the street. It wasn't a parking lot - we know how to to park and pay fees in parking lots.

kybourbon - how many times do I need to state that I will pay the charges when I understand what they are for? This post was a start for me to understand.

I cancelled the credit card b/c I received an automated call that my card was frozen until I verified the charges. We were leaving the next day for a different trip (to Spain), and I did not know if the charge was legitimate. If it was not, I could have accumulated more fraudelent charges, and I wouldn't have been able to use the credit card in Spain.

Thank you for the lecture about Florence and the hill towns, but we were not driving there.

OK -- you seem to hope the charges might not be legitimate. It is 99.999999% sure they are legit. (actually 100% but thought I'd give you a thread to cling to)

It isn't just parking -- you can't drive into restricted areas.

You may have been parked in a spot designated for residents only. Just because the lines are white, does not necessarily mean you can park there - many times you need a resident card to use the white spots. There will always be a sign at the beginning of the block indicating that those spots are for residents (it will say something like "solo residenti").

It isn't just Italy.

These same issues apply in many US cities, for the benefit of overseas visitors and others who may be traveling here.

In Boston and Cambridge, the vast majority of non-metered on-street parking requires a neighborhood resident sticker except on Sunday. If you park in a resident space in the North End or on Beacon Hill, you will be ticketed, and the ticket will follow you.

In Brookline, no one may park on the street for more than two hours. Since some parts of Brookline are near Fenway Park, there is a strong temptation for sports fans and concert-goers to try to park for free. The local authorities know this, and it is a significant source of revenue for the town. In addition, there is no overnight parking on the street in Brookline, for residents or others, and at 2 AM, the tow trucks begin their sweep.

As I said in the other current thread on this, I did some research on the internet. I found an article about Glascow which said the vast majority of parking tickets issued are routinely ignored. The eu has also begun investigating this and there is some speculation that this whole thing may not be in conformance with eu regulations.

The bigger question remains how many of these tickets are ignored and what they can really do about it. In the USA, the vast majority of summonses issued to forteign visitors are ignored although in the USA both a partking violation and a speed camera is not issued against the driver but rather the vgehicle and in many municipalities, the rental company is charged and passes it along to the motorist via the credit card.

While I agree it is not a scam against Americans, as in the United States, these parking tickets are a source of revenue to balance budgets. They claim it is fort safety but that is nonsensical, of course. In NYC, they even give cops and traffic enforcement agents quotas of summonses they have to issue whether deserved or not. Going to courty is an exercise in futility as you are guklty 99% of the time as the hearing officers are hardly disinterested parties; they are paid by the same municipalities and if they want to hold their job, they better have a 99% conviction rate. Recently one of these TEA's was beaten up by a motorist and everybody cheered the motorist as all the TEA had to do was tell him to move (he was in the car) instead of writing a $110 ticket. It will be very difficult to find a jury to convict the motorist of anything as they have all received this high handed treatment in the city.

So while it is not a scam per se, it is a scam in effect. If it were me, I would ignore the ticket and tell them to go fly a kite. While some people may say that is being a scofflaw, the USA was built by people ignoring unjust laws. I call that being a patriot.

I'm wondering if this is as prevalent in other EU countries? It seems that all of these threads are about Italy.

Many European streets, and especially those in Italian hill towns, are very narrow. As traffic grows, towns decide to restrict that traffic in order to preserve the quality of urban life, protect old buildings, and ensure the safety of pedestrians. Those restrictions are enforced by law.

Having one American tourist drive through the centre of Siena may not be a problem. When there are hundreds of them, as well as lots of Germans, French and British tourists, and in addition scores of more local visitors, then the local authority reacts by imposing penalties.

Of course it's hard when you don't know your way around, and if you cannot read the local language. I find the same when driving in the United States, where there are all sorts of strange driving laws which are quite different from those in my home country. I do my best, but I have never considered that they were all a scam aimed at me.

>While some people may say that is being a scofflaw, the USA was built by people ignoring unjust laws. I call that being a patriot.

So you think next time I visit USA I should be free to ignore the laws I think of as unjust?

We don't have any unjust laws in the USA <g>

Listen...my problem with all this is that if it is as prevelent as it seems to be, something is wrong. While it is noble on the part of authorities to establish these zones to protect historic things, the fact that so many tickets are issued is also an indication that something is wrong. And do you think for one second that part of the mentality is that we can boost the local coffers by issuing all these tickets, just or not? I used the example of NYC...trhe current piece of garbage mayor, who doesn't believe in the rule of law despite the fact the people voted for a two term limit, he had the law changed, keeps pushing quotas. As I indicated, if the police told people violating the parking laws to move the car, it would have a much more desirable effrect than just writing a ticket. But by writing a ticket, the city can collect revenue to balance its budget. Couldn't the Italian police stop cars from entering these forbidden zones by stationing officers and telling car drivers not to do it? But it's far more efficient to set up cameras and issue tickets to collect revenue, right? If the fine were say 10 euro, then I might agree there is some method to the madness and the rules exist just to protect historic landmarks. But you can't deny it's a revenue raiser, can you? Also the way it's done the accused doesn't seem to have any way or right of appeal (the same way we have kangeroo traffic courts in the States where you walk in and youj're already guilty instead of getting a fair impartial hearing). Now I am not saying to deliberately break the law. The vast majority of these tickets are against people who did not intend to break the law (I know, ignorancde is no excuse). So I don't go around breaking traffic laws or any law for that matter. But I would expect that if I receive some sort of violation, that I have the right to appeal it if it's incorrect and it be for something that was clearly wrong.

So again, the road to hell is filled with good intentions. Maybe the original purpose of these traps was admirable but once the cash starts rolling in, it's really hard to stop.

I refer to what we cal all agree is fair for all concerned.

<<you seem to hope the charges might not be legitimate. It is 99.999999% sure they are legit. It isn't just parking -- you can't drive into restricted areas.

Actually, janisj, it's funny you say that, b/c I get the impression from a couple posters on this thread that they are hoping I get more parking tickets, lol. A lot of replies seem to over-focus on how bad it is drive in a restricted zone in Florence. Which is not Varenna, or near Lake Como.

And I dont' know about you, but I'm never over-joyed to receive a parking ticket.

The area was not restricted to cars - it was along the side of the road that follows the shoreline of Lake Como. If it was restricted to motor vehicle traffic, the highway would end at Varenna. And while the hotel may have given us incorrect info about which section along that road we were allowed to park, I highly doubt that an expensive hotel would tell their guests it's OK to park in a zone that is restricted to cars.

It may be OK for customers of the hotel to park along there, but not for others to do so. Therefore, the hotel may have been required to register your license plate number with the local authorities. This is the procedure for the ZTL in Florence and other places--you are OK if your hotel registers your license plate.

>>>The area was not restricted to cars - it was along the side of the road that follows the shoreline of Lake Como. If it was restricted to motor vehicle traffic, the highway would end at Varenna.<<<

Just because the area isn't restricted to cars doesn't mean it wasn't restricted to YOUR car. Residents are allowed to drive in the restricted zones (ZTL) as are taxis, delivery trucks, etc. It's not just Florence that has ZTL, most towns in Italy that have either a lot of traffic (even tiny towns),a lot of tourists or want to preserve the historic areas have ZTL. The highways don't end in Rome, Montepulicano, Siena, Montalcino, etc., but that doesn't mean you can drive on them in their ZTL (or park).

You keep mentioning AutoEurope charging you, but not who you rented the car from as that is who usually puts the charge on.

From AutoEurope's website:

In case of traffic violations, the local supplier will charge the customer's credit card an administration fee of approx. EUR 36.00, incl. VAT, per fine. The local authorities will then contact the renter directly for payment of the fine.

The 65€ seems more like just a parking ticket unless fees are much cheaper in Varenna than in other cities.

I have done some more research on this (not here, lol) and learned that I do have grounds for an informal appeal. The grounds for such an appeal include:

"•You had a hotel booking made before you entered a limited traffic area with a hotel within a limited traffic or ZTL area of an Italian town or city. You would need to provide documentary proof of the booking – by producing a receipt showing for how long you stayed and when you checked out."


Kybourbon – I truly don’t understand you. None of my recent posts on this thread mention AutoEurope; I do not "keep mentioning it". I would think it was obvious that it was a casual error, yet you seemed to be obsessed about it . You must be very proud of noticing this mistake.

And in my first post, I did note that it was a parking violation.

Your quoted point is exactly the point I was making. Usually you would provide your license plate number to your hotel, so they would register and/or have it on record to avoid just such a ticket. Since you were unaware of the possibility, and your hotel did not request your plate number, this may be what happened.

Thanks, ellenem. I do appreciate your replies and the information that you shared.

I just got a notice from my car rental agency that i got a ticket in Mestre (near Venice) last fall and they charged me $40 for administrative fees. I didn't get a ticket, wasn't driving the car (another authorized driver was so I doubt I could be held responsible for the ticket itself anyway) and it was for driving in a restricted zone without authorization. We were in Mestre, but just drove in on major streets to the parking lot and left the car there. Maybe the parking folks are in cahoots with the police? But we were definitely not in any kind of restricted zone. So I'm contesting the AVIS charge with my cc company, have emailed the police to ask for any details they have about time and location of the charge, and will probably ignore the ticket if they don't charge my card for that as well. I guess I could cancel my amex card to avoid even that, but what a pain!! Nobody who was in the car (5 of us) remembers anything happening that could have resulted in a ticket. I am happy to see I have so much company!

The $40 is the fee the rental agency charges for providing your info to the police (the rental must have been in your name and own your credit card). You agreed to this fee when you rented the car (read your rental agreement). The actual ticket and fees will come later from the company the police have contracted with for collections. Typically, in Italy, a camera snaps a picture of your license plate when you cross into a restricted zone. Just because you don't remember it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Here's a picture of the ZTL sign.
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/travelblogs/654/98894/ZTL%E2%80%99s+in+Rome?destId=359975

Here we go again...