Huge increase in "deaf/mute" scam in Paris

I wonder if it is as "difficult" to scare them off the streets as it is to prosecute them

I can pretend to be deaf/mute as well to avoid dealing with these types of people.

Not only did they approach us frequently on our last trip, but, we saw them later in the day talking freely with one another...surely not mute at all....

We have them here on the metro in DC. It's pretty obvious to all that they're total fakes and easy to ignore them.

I fell for this the first time - a very young (adorable) boy approached us and I gave him 2 euros. He immediately pointed to the piece of paper where it was written at the top "6 EURO MINIMUM". We were aghast!

We used to have one (a fake, though not a gypsie, come into our toy store in Tempe, AZ) She got very nasty when we would throw her out!

People have been doing this in lots of cities for many years, probably decades. I've encountered them many times in the US and Europe, usually on buses, it seems. I really am surprised this is perceived as some new crime. I never have anything to do with people on the street and dont' read pieces of paper that strangers give me like that. It always surprised me the number of people who do.

in Italy, they board trains and hand out these very well written and translated pieces of paper, then come through the carriage "collecting" a few minutes later.

I am intrigued by the following: who provides these identical cards for these indigents?

who does the translating, which is invariably excellent?

do they have to buy tickets to ride on the trains? [I've never seen a ticket inspector within miles of one]

why does anyone ever give them any money? they must do so, or they would stop doing it.

Just ignore anyone on the street,begging. asking for a petition signature, or if you speak English, or tried to grab your wrist for a breacelt. Just walk on by with maybe a disdainful look!

The solution to this is very simple. Don;t stop. Ignore the scammers and just keep walking. If you don;t interact with them they can;t scam you. If they are very persistent or try to get close or touch you - just yell for the police.

You can be scammed only if you allow it to happen.

"Yell for the police"?

The problem is why these scammers are thriving is people are stuipid enough to give them money. I have seen it many times where people reach into their purses and give notes or coins. It is so obvious they are scammers! I have stopped many tourists from paying by telling them they are scams only to be spat on. This year in Paris is the most I have ever seen.

Great earlier advice. Just keep walking by. Ignore them. Also buying fake Gucci and Louis Vuitton bags leads money to be filtered to more unsavoury scams and illegal trafficking.

##the penalties for compelling children to beg are very severe (one sentence a few years ago was a 30-year prison term).##

Where did you get that ?

The law was changed in 2003. It's now legal to beg in France, but it's illegal to profit from the begging of others. If one person exploits the begging of another, that's worth three years in prison. If the exploited person is a minor, it's five years. If the exploitation is carried out as an organized gang, it's ten years (and 1.5 million euro in fines).

I can't find the reference of the person who was convicted, but as I recall, it was 30 years behind bars, presumably for multiple counts of one of the above crimes. Unfortunately, most of the ringleaders are never caught, much less convicted and sentenced.

Laughingd2,enjoyed your report. That's the great thing about this forum - it lives in cyberspace to be accessed at any time by those seeking advice/info on any given subject. Your kids sound like troopers and are lucky to have parents like you and your wife.

Laughingd2,enjoyed your report. That's the great thing about this forum - it lives in cyberspace to be accessed at any time by those seeking advice/info on any given subject. Your kids sound like troopers and are lucky to have parents like you and your wife.

It's too bad, but you have to be smart. I often think that this is Darwinism in action, if you fall for it, it's the modern version of natural selection.

I'd rather be rude than a sucker.

Be deaf and mute when approached by them.

Hey AGA,

I read your link.

I see nothing there to indicate that the scammers are Gypsies.

Do you have other information that indicates they are?

Romani or not the Paris flics should be able to get someone who looks like a naive tourist to be a decoy and nab these little urchins - but as some have told me that they are underage means they will be back on the streets before a blink of an eye.

Why Paris and Italian trains and Rome and Florence and other places allow this to go unchecked in mind boggling - especially since both Sarkozy and Bellosconi have been really anti-Romani in their policies.

whether or not they are Romani I do not know but they look exactly like the Romani I see all over France in Romani camps, including one right near my second home in France.

I wasn't depending on the link; I have dealt with them in person, and they are gypsies.

tant pis that in Paris and many large tourist cities you should always be leery of anyone coming up to for any reason - any reason - tis a pity as they oft are up to no good.

Here's a video I found that actually shows some of the scams in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO6CFSosqKE

It also seems to show that Italian police consider scams to be more entertainment than something that they should be doing anything about.

Ira, from the link:

"Ces « collecteurs » issus de la communauté rom roumaine, que l’on peut parfois surprendre en train de se parler, ne sont ni sourds ni muets."

I guess I haven't been to Europe for a couple years. Has this replaced the practice of young 'deaf people' passing out little cheap souveniers on trains or placing them on your restaurant or cafe table with a note about being deaf, then coming back to collect them or preferably money if you will buy one?

I remember watching this going on once and someone turning his back to the 'deaf person' and calling out "police" to have the deaf person miraculously cured and able to hear and running away even leaving some of the novelties behind.

I guess these scammers never had mommies who gave them the “your face will freeze like that” speech.

Does the huge increase of deaf-mute scammers really mean that there is a huge increase of naive tourists? I can't imagine any other explanation, because no matter how many of them I see, it doesn't change what I do.

As for people who think that the solution is to yell "police," may I ask for what reason the police would intervene? Is it a crime for a beggar to think that you are stupid?

The pouch recommended in the video is the one I use minus the neck strap which I cut off. It has a heavy belt loop and I wear it on my belt. This has been the case for years, and I've had no problems, probably because my arm naturally falls against it practically all the time, and because if anyone on the street approaches me either begging or trying to offer me something, I immediately secure the pouch and my camera; the same goes when I am in a crowded public transport.

During our trip in May, we came across no panhandlers or street sellers in Rome, Naples and Florence; a few homeless sleeping in the Naples train station at 6 a.m. The Florence train station seems to have markers beyond which street sellers and panhandlers are not allowed.

It also seems to show that Italian police consider scams to be more entertainment than something that they should be doing anything about.

The deals were too good to be true. The cops know it, and the buyer is naive to think otherwise. I do not think that the cops in the States would do much more about it; they just would not laugh in your face.

Thank you, nikki.

I missed it twice.

I think the huge increase in scammers might reflect less enforcement or perhaps simply easier access to France, although tourist numbers in Paris are excellent right now despite the current depression. About nine out of ten tourists in the most popular locations appear to be Oriental now (Japanese and Chinese, some other nationalities), and perhaps these tourists are easier marks (?).

The police will intervene in Paris, and in fact they sometimes materialize without being called, but there is often little that they can do. In the case of theft, the stolen wallets and such are quickly passed from one crook to another, so that it's very difficult to determine who took what and where it is by the time the police arrive. Begging itself isn't illegal. Forcing minors to beg is highly illegal, but the person in charge is always conspicuously absent and the minors won't file a complaint. The police will destroy their fraudulent begging materials (the papers that claim they are deaf, etc.), which they won't complain about because they know that they'd only get themselves in trouble. Sometimes they search their bags and stuff, too, and if they should find something stolen, then it's time to go to the police station. But they are minors, so they just end up getting released to their parents, anyway.

Whether it is naïve or greedy of tourists or not, laughing at them because of this is professional misconduct for the police. This is especially true if they've actually had something stolen rather than just being taken advantage of.

Don't mix begging with scams. They are totally different things.

If you wanted to post about thefts also, you should have put it in the title of your post.

Why not mix begging with scams? Either way, you lose money.

"As for people who think that the solution is to yell "police," may I ask for what reason the police would intervene? Is it a crime for a beggar to think that you are stupid?"

I think you missed the point. It's not that the person calling for police really thinks the will come, but apparently calling police makes the scammers run. So it's not what the "victim" thinks, it's what the scammers think.

Is it not a scam, as opposed to begging, when a person claims to solicit for a bogus charity? Would this not then be illegal?

Scam implies some sort of fraud, and in some cases fraud is illegal (it's not illegal to lie, but it depends on why you are lying).

In cases I have seen, as I've mentioned, the police tear up the papers that the scammers are using to get money. They can't actually arrest them, because they haven't seen them conducting the scam, but they can tear up the papers, because the papers fraudulently claim that the scammers are deaf, and fraudulently name real or fake charities, and so on. The scammers are in no position to complain about losing their scamming tools, and destroying the tools does prevent them from pulling the same thing, at least for a short while.

I've been approached a couple of times here in my home city by a guy who handed out notes saying he's deaf and would we please buy pencils from him, pay any price you like. The last time it happened the people at the next table started digging out their wallets. I tried to tell them it's a scam, he's not deaf. They got mad at me and thought I was really rude. I wish I had the idea to call out "POLICE" but I didn't think of it at the time. But I'll do it next time, I would love to see the "deaf" person's reaction to that.

Thanks for the idea Patrick.

All you have to do is turn slightly away from the scammer, and say something completely obscene (preferably an insult) out loud. Then watch his expression. If it changes, he heard you, and you've proved your case.

Baeggars have been in France and Italy for millenia police

can do nothing without being accused of discrimination...

they even pay them 1000 euros deport them they bus back

immediately due to porous borders...

France has had easy immigration policies for decades leading to this.They are not "gypsies" but The ROMA a proud migratory people originating in India(not egypt).They have made their living like this on the margins of society.They have been victims of mass discrimation for millenia including death camps.George Sauros the man who broke the bank on England in the 90s and a Roma documents all abuse thorught his foundation

In times of economic collapse like now it will get worse.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/13/sarkozy-roma

Ignorance concerning the half million Roma who perished during the Holocaust reinforces anti-Roma prejudice today. To counter this, the European Parliament should ...
blog.soros.org/2010/12/the-roma-holocaust-the-history

If this bothers you simply walk on...

But inclusion not exclusion is the answer

if there is one.

In Key West we do the "bum the bum first" Soon as you see them ask them for a cigarette first and it totally throws them off. They aren't as bad as they use to be but are still a pain in the arse. I do know Ireland has had a problem for years with the women asking for money for milk for their baby. Check out the baby and many times it is fake. It is very uncomfortable and I ignore them and usually have a jacket on with an inside zipper pocket. If I carry a purse it is small and a crossover.

The main reason gypsies have been persecuted and driven out of so many countries is that they have a culture that revolves around shafting the rest of society. Obviously, that's not a way to make friends. It's a bit like the Mafia, except that, for some reason, it's okay to admit that the Mafia is filled with crooks, but it's politically incorrect to acknowledge that gypsy culture is based on taking advantage of non-gypsies.

You can be politically correct and get your wallet stolen, or you can face reality and keep your credit cards, cash, and passport.

We encountered many of these during our time in Paris. We, of course knew it was a scam due to info here on Fodors, so no problem for us. We watched the gypsies/beggars/scammers approach unsuspecting tourists and hoped the tourists would make the right choice and walk away. Most did.

Then the beggars approached a young girl, probably 16-18 yrs old. They had her. She was going for her wallet. I intervened, luckily she spoke English. The beggar was most certainly not deaf or mute, at that point she was yelling at us in whatever language she spoke and then she pointed at my husband and from her hand motions, we surmised, she cast a spell on him. It was pretty entertaining.

Adults, you're on your own, but they shouldn't go after young, naive kids. I just had to step in then. Kind of crossing the line IMO.

I'm amazed that there are still men who carry their wallet (with lots of cash and credit cards) in the back pocket ANYPLACE (Europe or otherwise).

I carry a tiny, tiny, amazingly thin and small billfold that is so thin and small, it can hold only my transit pass and about 20 Euros in my breast pocket. You can't even see it when my reading glasses and a pen are also in the pocket. In addition, if it's not too warm, I might wear a lightweight pullover sweater over it.

Extra cash and credit/ATM cards go in a hidden wallet attached to my pants and tucked in out of sight. It's a pain to get it out when I need it, but so far no losses.

All major cash and documents and everything else stay in the hotel safe.

SS

michele_d--Our DD just finished a study abroad term in Paris. She told me a story about a young Japanese tourist who was about to get her purse lifted from one of these deaf/mute people. Another student that DD was with saw it start to happen and told the tourist, in the nick of time. The deaf/mute girl turned to DD's friend, so obviously heard her, and got mad and jabbed her pen in DD's friends rear end! No damage, thankfully, but DD's friend definitely gave the deaf/mute an earful.

mms,
Yes, those deaf/mutes can get kind of testy when you interrupt their "work".

AnthonyGA - you should be ashamed of yourself. Write that paragraph again and replace "gypsies" with "jews". Still happy to post it? Well, that's exactly the sort of thing you would have heard out of the Nazis. As has been pointed out, the Roma were targeted in the Holocaust as well, and are still widely persecuted and discriminated against, as even you yourself acknowledge. Whether or not there is a criminal element in a society, it is unfair and wrong to claim that all members of that society are criminal or that their entire culture is based on criminality.

I do not think that AntonyGA said that " that all members of that society are criminal or that their entire culture is based on criminality", but that almost all "deaf / mute" beggers and / or thefts are gypsies.

To be precise, he said "The main reason gypsies have been persecuted and driven out of so many countries is that they have a culture that revolves around shafting the rest of society... it's politically incorrect to acknowledge that gypsy culture is based on taking advantage of non-gypsies". I think my response was a fair reflection of those sentiments.

A wish to help others is human nature. Naive/inexperienced to stop for these people, yes. Stupid? not necessarily.

It's good to forewarn occasionally as you have done here, Anthony, because many don't come from metropolitan areas where this sort of thing goes on.

<<You can be politically correct and get your wallet stolen, or you can face reality and keep your credit cards, cash, and passport.>>

Or you can acknowledge the value of the Roma culture for what it is - far more than just a culture of "shafting the rest of society" - and still not be a dumb-ass tourist who gets taken advantage of by ANYone.

I will stand by my statements. The gypsy culture (or Roma culture, if that makes you happier) revolves around a sharp division between other gypsies and the rest of society. The rest of society consists solely of "marks," waiting to be fleeced, in gypsy culture. It's a culture based on scamming or stealing from anyone outside that culture. That's why it has historically been so unpopular.

The tired old comparison to the Jews won't work. Judaism isn't based on criminal activity. Jews are not raised to steal from non-Jews. But gypsies are. It may not be politically correct to acknowledge that, but that doesn't prevent it from being true.

Gypsies who leave this culture and join the mainstream obviously have a different viewpoint—although it's very hard to completely follow the straight and narrow path if you've been raised in a society where dishonesty towards others is the rule. But for those who are in that culture, "shafting the rest of society" is standard practice.

I'm sorry that the culture is that way, and I'm sorry to say that I've never had any interaction with a gypsy that didn't involve some sort of attempted scam or theft, but that's the way it is. And you can bet that the favorite victims of gypsy scams are the ones who stubbornly refuse to accept this reality.

I'm in Paris now, and despite this thread I had no idea just HOW big this scam has become in Paris. In the past week, I'd estimate I've been approached at least 8 or 9 times and have observed others being approached at least three times that many times. I've watched as what appeared to be a local businessman on Rue Honore sign the form, then get shaken down for money, and when the girl became aggressive pointed to what must be the "small print amount" he had agreed to by signing, he walked away, with the girl running after him and hitting him sharply in the back with her clipboard.

But yesterday morning early on the bridge right behind Notre Dame, I saw the most amazing thing (well, not so amazing really). There were about a dozen of these girls chatting and laughing, then they split up into groups of three and went in opposite directions. It was then I realized that what they were carrying were those clipboards with pledge forms and sure enough, immediately one of the girls stopped to cyclists and were getting them to sign. I've never watched a group of "deaf girls" actively chatting and laughing before. SCAM indeed.

I don't see too many of them, since I do not spend the day in tourist areas, except for the Champs Elysées gypsies who are folded into a position of prostration every 100 meters up and down the street. They're not too much of a bother except as obstacles when you are walking.

However, one thing really mystifies me about the working (scamming) gypsies, and that is the way they are dressed, almost as though it's a uniform. Therefore, the moment they try to walk up to you (if you know about them), it's easy to get them to back off with just a hand motion. Since they don't wear those dresses and scarves when they are "off duty" -- they wear jeans and t-shirts -- it seems to me that they could scam a lot more people if they blended into the crowd. The only possible explanation that I can think of for the outfits is that they can pretend more easily not to speak French when the police collar them temporarily.

The good news is the colder weather is coming and the scammers move on to a warmer climate!

These young scammers or beggers are under age which is why the police can't do anything. They are usually under 15 years of age and a lot of the girls are pregnant too! I saw 5 coming out of a police station, all girls, all around 12 years of age, ALL of them pregant. The police officer told me they couldn't do anything about it and had to let them off with a warning.

kerouac, one thing about your post puzzles me, but maybe I'm misunderstanding. Are you talking about the "uniform" of the "deaf" scammers? If so, you must be right that you don't see them. I haven't seen any in such a uniform, they tend to dress very much like other girls their age and do indeed blend in with the crowd. If anything, I've sometimes thought they looked a little too 'trendy' teen to arouse a lot of sympathy.

Oh, I've only seen them dressed a gypsies with the long skirts and the head scarves. If you have seen trendy ones, that means they are finally adapting to the environment. The last ones I saw with a clipboard were at Pont Neuf in mid August, but there was no mistaking their gypsy garb.

Ah, then yes indeed, they have changed. I haven't seen one dressed in "traditional gypsy" garb.

Early one morning when we were getting off the metro at the Arc, the gypsies were having their morning 'briefing'. A group of 10 or so were being briefed on the day's activities. Everyone then scattered and 'went to work'. We had already been witness to the ring scam so we had a big laugh when a man and a woman both 'found' a ring in front of us at the exact same second. (hey, it was early, not many tourists around yet). They both bent down at the same time and when they went to stand up their eyes met, neither said a word, they both just turned and walked in opposite directions. That's one way to get rid of them.

I've tried telling tourists that they are being scammed, right in front of the "deaf" gypsy girls, but I'm surprised by how few tourists pay attention. Either they don't understand English, or they incorrectly believe that I'm the scammer. As I recall, studies have shown that if a bad person is criticized by another person while he is victimizing someone, people will spontaneously spring to the bad person's defense, no matter what wicked act he is carrying out.

Wow. Just this morning I posted on this thread and then today I was pickpocketed in Paris. Something I honestly thought could never happen to me. Rather than post that story here, I'll provide a link as it has nothing to do with the 'deaf' scam, but still a number of issues discussed here fall into play -- including comments here about what "can't" be done since they are young girls.

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/my-last-day-in-paris-a-trip-to-the-bastille-by-police-car.cfm

There is a thread on pickpockets in Spain with some rather stronG, if not hysterical, comments.

Not long ago , I saw a documentary about organized crime groups from Romania ( yes, Romas )
operating in Madrid and Milano.
The children are sent daily to the city center (often near the train station ot ATM machines ) to steel.
They are supervised by adults, often their parents. The big shots live in huge homes back in the villages of Romania.
It was really sad to see the children exploited that way.
The Spanish and Italian authorities seemed exasperated and unable to stop the criminals.

Various scams in Paris (gold rings, def/mute. etc,) may be run by similar
gangs.

I notices that several times the perps were referred to several times as Romanian. While there are indeed Roma in Romania, the bulk of the Roma population live elsewhere, particularly in the Balkan countries and originated on the Indian sub-continent.

Also, we need to be careful in painting any ethnicity with a broadbrush and using stereotypes. There is a long list of people of Roma ancestry who are distinguished in arts, music, theater, science, politics, etc. A few surprising examples of people that you would know who have roots in the Roma include Yul Brynner (who was an honorary president of a Roma organization) Sir Charles Chaplin who was part Roma on his mother's side, Rickie Lee Jones, Sir Michael Caine, Sir Sean Connery, Sir Roger Moore, even Elvis Presley traces back to Germanic Sinta roots.

I left out that there were also two Roma past Presidents of Brazil.

I have yet to see where anyone here has suggested or even hinted that all Roma are bad are even anything remotely like it. If someone posted "the guy who robbed me was tall", would everyone suddenly jump on the bandwagon to insist that not all tall people are bad? Of course not.

Such over reaction to a description of someone who has done bad things to even think it means people are trying to "stereotype" all people is just plain silly.

On the other hand it is simply insane to suggest that mentioning much of the petty crime in Paris (or elsewhere) is being done by Roma people is incorrect. Wake up and smell the coffee or at least get your heads out of the sand.

Actually NP it wasn't your posts I was referring to and it wasn't you who was stereotyping if anything I applauded your actions and said so. I was talking about the broad brush strokes such as "The gypsy culture (or Roma culture, if that makes you happier) revolves around a sharp division between other gypsies and the rest of society. The rest of society consists solely of "marks," waiting to be fleeced, in gypsy culture. It's a culture based on scamming or stealing from anyone outside that culture."

That is an absolute statement.

Roma culture does not require stealing, although there are plenty who do. Jewish culture does not require chasing money although plenty do. Black culture does not require being lazy and shiftless although plenty are. I could go on and on, there is a place that goes beyond realism and turns into ethnic stereotyping.

I have had my pocket picked by Roma kids in Rome. I have also been mugged by Italians, Irish and Puerto Ricans at different times in Brooklyn when ethnic gangs ruled neighborhoods. I have been cheated by a Jew but have also been cheated by a Christian Evangelical for even more. So, what is the point?

There are several Roma (from Romania - that is what they have told me since I talk to them) in my non touristy neighborhood. They are not thieves, just beggars. I wish they would find a better way to make a living, but they are good people who always ask me about my mother (every now and then they see me pushing her wheelchair through the neighborhood), and I have complete confidence that the one who sits directly in front of my building is more useful than a guard dog.

I do photo sessions for her at her request from time to time and she takes the pictures back to Romania.

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq228/kerouac2/dailylife/roma008.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8226580.stm.

"Across Europe thousands of Roma (Gypsy) children are being forced onto the streets to beg and steal, and law enforcement agencies are seemingly powerless to prevent it."

Madrid police say that 95% of children under 14 that they pick up stealing on the streets are Roma from Romania.

Because the age of criminal responsibility in Spain is 14, there is little they can do.


Every day children from the camp head out into the city to steal and beg, and many are beaten by their minders if they do not return with money."


In Milan in 2007, just after Romania entered the European Union, police noticed a surge in theft and pick-pocketing carried out by Roma children. "

the BBC documentary .

"So, what is the point?"


There is no point in stereotyping any group, but there is also no point in pretending that
the unfortunate reality of some Roma children and the existence of criminal gangs exploiting them is not a problem.

Danon, I agree with your point 100%.

Some years ago my family - that was me, DW and 2 of our children then in the 2nd and 4th grades were visiting Rome - it was in the midst of the tourist season. We parked our car and walked down towards the Colisium where we saw a sight that was unusual even for Rome. There were groups of kids, presumably Roma all over accosting tourists and some natives alike (the non tourists were given away by their screaming at the kids in Italian). In the area in front of the Colisium was a police van and next to the van was a fenced in pen, full of the kids. The van would fill up with kids and a new one would pull up. There were plain clothed Italian police all over catching the kids as fast as they could and bringing them down to the pen while other kids were still picking pockets. We stood there with our backs against the wall watching the action.

After a while we decided to carefully walk back to the car. I dropped a couple of steps behind DW and the kids so that I could keep an eye on them. I felt footsteps coming up behind me and saw what seemed to be a 14 year old break into a run towards DW. It was obvious he was going for her pocketbook. Before I could react, a young cop made an amazing open field tackle of the kid bringing him down but the kid wiggled free and ran away. Later (it was a pretty good walk back to the car) we saw the kid again with his handler. Talk about stereotypes. The kid was handing over money to a guy in a slick shark skin suite, black enamel hair, jewelry, the works. The handler was adding the kids money to a roll of bills that would have choked a horse.

The next part of this story I have already repeated on this forum. When DD returned to her 2nd grade class, for show and tell she demonstrated how to pick pockets.

Thanks for posting our experience.
In the BBC documentary, the kids in Madrid and Milan were supervised by adults or returned after
" work" to their scum parents who were no better than the man you describe.
Of course, they did not attend school or have any other normal
activities. Their
life was like something straight out of Dickens.
The most disgusting. was the sight of huge, luxury homes the crime bosses built in the
native villages - all on the backs of poor children.

Sorry, your experience...

The exploitation of children by adults is a worldwide shame. Child soldiers, child drug carriers, indoctrinating kids that their highest calling is to blow themselves up. It seems to be constantly escalating.

Oh great. I just fell for one of them.

The stereotyping of "dark" gypsies with long skirts who are a bit filthy may work to warn in many cases, but these scammers are not all like that.

I was on an early morning train from Vienna through Hungary to Zagreb and was the only one in first class except for a young couple. They did not fit the stereotype, in fact, they looked like clean-cut and prosperous young adults from Germany.

When the Austrian conductor came to collect tickets, there was a long dispute with the conductor by the young couple. It turned out the young couple had money but not in euros which was the only kind of currency the conductor would accept. So i offered to help. The young man handed me some Hungarian money and I gave the conductor euros for the girl's ticket up to the Hungarian border. (Remember, I have to pull out euros under the watchful eyes of this girl.)

At the Hungarian border, the Hungarian conductor came and again the same scenerio, I produce euros, etc.

At the last Hungarian stop, the young man gets off. The girl stays behind to "chat" with me. Her English is quite good. She says that when the train gets to the Croatian border, she has enough Croatian money to get her to Zagreb, so she doesn't need my help.

She tells me that she has been studying at a special hospitality seminar for three months in Lithuania and is now returning home. My alarm bells are beginning to sound. Do you see the problem here? The young man who got off and with whom she has been whispering throughout the train ride, she claims, is a "mere" acquaintance and is Hungarian. She's Croatian. She studied in Lithuania.

These are three languages that aren't exactly mutually intelligible. She has to be one heck of a linguist, even for an European.

She also has no luggage. So, she's going home after finishing her studies in Lithuania and she has no luggage? Just one tiny purse.

She sticks by me and I am more than grateful for her "help" at the ATM machine in the Zagreb train station. She can barely hide her disappointment at the little amount that I draw out.

Was she a Roma? Sure couldn't tell by her looks.

Was she a scammer? Most likely.

She at least got the young man to pay for her train ticket by exchanging his Hungarian Florints for my euros, then she watched as I exchanged my euros for Croatian kunas at the ATM machine in the Zagreb train station.

Aside from a shared snack, she got nothing more from me.

I escaped - why? Because I had my scottevest on with its 22 pockets and I always keep 50-100 euros and one credit card in an outside pocket. All she saw was what was in the outside pocket. The rest are all in the inside pockets. Unless she physically attacked me and unzipped all the pockets, she wouldn't have been able to get at much.

We parted friends.

Not all scammers are Roma and not all Roma have to look their stereotype.

When traveling one always has to be on the alert, you never know what the next scammer will look like...

From the International Herald Tribune of 9/16/11(?). "Sarkozy Sets His Sights on Begging and Public Prayer. In an enhanced campaign against petty crime and criminality, the Gov't of Pres. N. Sarkozy, facing elections nest spring, has banned begging for the next six months on the Champs-Elysee from 10 AM to 10 PM as well as prayer on the streets outside crowded mosques according to Interior Mlinister Claude Gueant.
Mr. Gueant has also announced a renewed crackdown on non-French Roma who overstay their visas and sometimes work as pickpockets, saying that delinquent minors will be deported. Since January, 10 percent of people "who have appeared before a magistrate have been Romanian," he said in interview published in Le Parisien theis week. "It has to stop".

Once on a trip to Provence, I was staying in Villeneuve-lez-Avignon but would boat ride or walk across the bridge to
Avignon. One day on my walk by the Carousel, I saw a sweet little dog wearing a jean jacket sitting atop an organ grinder.
I stopped to take a photo and as a walked away, this pre-teen
young gypsy girl ran after me screaming, you took a picture of
my dog, you must pay..s o I put a less than a franc coin in her hand and as I smiled away she tossed it at me.I. would have gladly given her some money had she not been rude

You don't have to pay to take someone's picture. The gypsy girl was incorrect.

But a person can ask you to erase the picture. Theoretically you are to ask for permission when you take the picture of a person; although in this case it was not a person, nor was it a scam. On the other hand, the organ grinder makes a living by public performances of the monkey or dog, as in this case. A tip would have been appropriate. And yes, I gave money to this blind trumpet player, even though it was not for his playing.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/4195199535/in/set-72157623026204048

We were in Paris last summer and the streets were filled with so many fake deaf/mute girls, female beggars, and men approaching us to sell cheap junk that it felt like being swarmed by locusts. After awhile it was annoying enough to take some of the fun out of seeing the sites. It was like running a gauntlet.

We watched deaf/mute fakers gather to report in and receive instructions from what looked like a team leader (all women), in full view of everyone. Then they would spread out and go after the crowds they'd just been talking in front of. They were especially obvious at the base of the Eiffel Tower. Pretty nervy!

The men with junk were easy to ignore even though they were everywhere because they were careful to not be aggressive or obnoxious, but the young women with the clipboards were aggressive, getting right up into our faces and grabbing at our arms until we put up a hand in their faces while saying, "No!" They wouldn't back off until we did that so after a couple of days of it, the rest of our trip we just did it automatically as soon as they stepped into our personal space. It felt rude and unkind at first, and then it felt sort of sad that we were reduced to treating other people so dismissively and disrespectfully. We had no choice though. It's not a good environment for impressing tourists so they will want to return, especially when those sort of trips are so expensive.

We noticed that most of the men selling junk and the female beggars looked Indian, while the deaf/mute fakers looked like Roma Gypsies.

An Indian-looking woman approached me while I was on the Avenue des Champs-Élysées sitting alone at a sidewalk cafe table. She was persistent in pretending she couldn't speak to me, gesturing that she was pregnant and needed money to eat. When I shook my head, she kept begging by rubbing her belly like she was cradling a baby, putting her fingers to her mouth to simulate eating, and holding out her hand for money with a sad, pathetic, pleading facial expression. When I quietly said no, she kept at it, standing very close to me. I finally said, "No!" loudly and put my hand up in her face (she was standing over me). Then she walked over to another establishment and started begging there.

Also, there were Indian-looking women sitting on the sidewalks begging, who would then lay down on their stomachs or kneel bent so far forward their faces were on the ground, totally prostrated at the feet of the thousands walking past and stepping around them, with containers for money in front of them. That's a bummer visual. It was a startling sight for me too, because I'd never before seen Indian people engaged in such demeaning and dishonest behaviors. All of the Indian people I've met in the states have been some of the most dignified, gracious, delightful people I've ever met.

On the subways we found Gypsy musicians amusing and I always like street musicians, but the locals just looked tired and pissed off, cranking up their iPods or covering their ears and glaring, so it probably gets old day after day. The musicians would play and then ask for money until they realized no one was going to hand any over and then they would suddenly get off. One of them was an elderly woman but she was quite agile when it came to jumping off the train quickly to head to another car. I wish I had her balance! So as not to add to the misery of the locals, we didn't give any money to musicians on the subways or in the stations.

We also observed numerous Roma Gypsies working as teams pretending to be tourists playing the game of guessing where an object is in order to lure real tourists into the con game. We stood and watched several of them and it was always the same scenario. How can the authorities not know what they are doing? Of course they do, but they probably can't do anything about it unless a person is caught in the act of cheating the customer or pickpocketing and as others have explained, that is very hard to do.

As for police, I don't know about Europe, but there are cities in the states where police collude with Roma Gypsies. They receive kickbacks from scams like Roma Gypsy drivers intentionally causing small car accidents with other drivers outside of bars and restaurants that make it look like it was the other driver's fault because they've probably had at least one drink. The damage is so minor it costs them nothing to get their car's damaged cosmetics fixed (they do the work themselves or have partners in crime who do it on the cheap but put in much more expensive estimates). The other driver ends up in handcuffs, the cops write up accident reports, including on private property owned by the businesses, which they aren't supposed to do unless the property owner calls them and requests it. At night, property owners aren't even around and when the cops arrive they don't try to reach them. Cops write the reports up as accidents caused by the other driver having alcohol, yet that fact hasn't even been established. The Gypsy gets insurance money for repairs to his "luxury town car" plus whatever else insurance companies automatically fork over, and the cops get overtime going to DUI hearings and depositions. Some of them also receive additional kickbacks. That's one of the major scams some police and Roma Gypsies pull together.

It works in our country because we've become so hysterical about DUI that we don't even think critically about the issue anymore. Civil rights, out the window when it comes to DUI charges. An accusation? The same as guilty to the public, and worse, to judges, so they rubber stamp what cops and prosecutors send them and tell them. Hundreds of thousands of citizens just take a plea, pay large fines and do a couple of days in jail, accepting a DUI on their records because they can't afford $20,000.00-$30,000.00 for a trial to prove their innocence. Cops working night-shifts make $100,000.00- $130,000.00 a year by pumping up their pay with all that overtime I mentioned previously. Those that also ask for and accept kick-backs make more off the books. All those circumstances form a perfect storm, making that particular scam ripe for exploitation in the U.S.

An insurance agent told me that they know who some of the "Romanian con artists" in his city are because they have so many claims and are on the phone to the insurance company within five minutes of the accidents. Yet, because insurance companies are still so profitable anyway, they just let it go on at the expense of their insured customers (who, of course, lose their insurance and then have to pay for high-risk insurance for a few years, so another part of the insurance industry makes more off of their victimization and sometimes are even owned by the same umbrella company as their original insurance). It's no skin off an insurance company's nose, just off the victim's who was hit by a car that came out of nowhere in a parking lot, from a parking space, or from a side street.

A man I met who worked as security at a private strip mall-type property with a popular restaurant/bar on the premises told me that one Roma Gypsy driving his own for-hire private town car, supposedly to be there for bar patrons who wanted to hire him for rides home, pulled that scam on the property most weekends of every month. He said the con artist was on a first name basis with the cops who always showed up. The cops would arrest the victim of the scam as soon as they arrived, even after he'd already assessed the driver as not impaired. It was private property so it was his job to do so unless he called the police and requested their help, but that legal technicality was always ignored.

The Gypsy would create a scene, leaping out of his car screaming at the other driver, hitting their car with his hands, shouting accusations, and the other driver would be all freaked out. After the security person would assess the other driver as not impaired and tell them to just exchange insurance information, the Gypsy would keep shouting and call the cops anyway. Then the cops would arrive almost immediately and the victim would be in handcuffs in less than five-minutes after their arrival. He said there was no move in that city to stop it and it made him sick every time he witnessed it happen to someone.

As for it being racist or bigoted to remark about the Roma Gypsy culture, that isn't the case just because a person acknowledges what is true and has been historically true for centuries. Of course it isn't true that everyone living in, belonging to, or coming from a culture engages in cons and criminal behavior. Just like it isn't true everyone belonging to or coming from a culture is a saint. Researchers and people from within this culture, however, have written books and scholarly material on this very subject, including why scamming non-Gypsies is considered right and deserved by many Roma Gypsies.

For whatever reason many centuries ago there was bad blood between the nomadic Gypsies and settled villagers, including bigotry against Gypsies because they were different, a minority, or just because they were nomadic and as outsiders aroused fear and suspicion. It started that far back, and it may not even have been the fault of Gypsies in the beginning, but it laid the foundation for why a significant number of Roma Gypsies (including those who are no longer nomadic) feel justified in victimizing non-Gypsies, believing we deserve it if we are foolish enough to fall for their scams. Of course, plenty of people are victimized even though they haven't fallen for anything. More unfortunately, some of their scams in this country have worse, long-lasting, even life-altering consequences for the victims other than just being ripped-off.

Additionally, Roma Gypsies interviewed for research claim they do not want inclusion. They want to retain their own identity, lifestyle, and culture and they do not want to be one with the non-Gypsies because they don't respect the rest of us. Why would they want to be like us? We are saps, and we don't share their ethnic cultural history, roots, or genes.

Smart communities in some states have created programs in their schools that accommodate Gypsy children coming and going during the school year, just like other smart and caring communities have done the same for children of migrant workers. Also, some communities have set aside land for Gypsies to park their trailers when they are in the area because there is no open, legally unclaimed property anymore. All land is public or privately owned and none allow squatters or long-term campers, so there sure isn't any for parked trailers, especially entire communities of parked trailers. By providing land that is set aside just for nomadic Gypsy communities a major conflict between locals and Gypsies is removed and Gypsies can continue following their own cultural lifestyle. I see that as a win-win.


The same culture of preying on outsiders is strong among the Gypsy Travelers who are of Irish descent. I've not done any research on that culture so I do not know their justifications. I do know that here in the states if they ever were nomadic, in the cities I've lived in they aren't anymore.

Irish Travelers are recognizable. Not all, but many have red hair. The females of all ages wear expensive designer clothing. Even their little girls carry very expensive couture purses. They are not popular with restaurant owners and small businesses because even though they have a lot of money to spend, they also cause damage to restrooms, make big messes, are rude to other customers, and then don't tip the help on top of it. That isn't just bigoted gossip, by the way. I've heard a number of such complaints from business owners themselves, and a friend used to work in a high-end restaurant that finally threw them out and refused to let them return after an especially ugly night. The people I've talked to said they'd rather not have Travelers' business at all than have to deal with them taking over their establishments, alienating other customers, short-changing employees, and then having to clean up after them after they leave. I don't know why Irish Travelers would behave that way unless they believe they are entitled and other people deserve it.

Two of our own family members were victimized by Gypsies in a large metropolitan area in the southwest. One was by a Roma Gypsy who stole expensive tools from her garage while her husband was away. The guy was supposed to be working on her house. The other relative was victimized by a Traveler who showed up when she hired a carpet cleaning service. He was rude, a little intimidating, doubled the cost if she wanted anything but water used on her carpets (you know, like actual cleaning chemicals), then turned her formal living and dining rooms, stairs, and landing into a swamp and left them that way. He also totally destroyed all of her area and throw rugs. When she cancelled the check, he called her, threatened her, and told her he was going to "call" his "father" who would "take care of her." She didn't know what that meant, but she just paid because he knew where she lived.

In the U.S. we have young women approaching people on streets claiming to be pregnant and needing a few bucks to get somewhere, and other similar stories. They tend to target men more than women because men are more likely to believe them or worry they might be telling the truth and really do need help. The only women I've known who've been approached were older and a little addled-acting. With the economy tanked and so many youth in poverty, with growing numbers of them on the verge of homelessness or actually homeless, we are going to see more of this because such young people are targeted by sharks waiting to exploit them.

Finally, I am a researcher of WWII, Nazi Germany, and the Holocaust. Many groups were targeted for extermination: Jews, Christians whose ancestors were Jewish at some point generations before, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Gypsies, Protestant teachers who refused to sign an oath to Hitler that included denouncing their own faith, Priests who refused to cooperate with the Nazi regime, Swing Kids, the Brown Shirts who'd actually committed Hitler's early thuggery for him, and the list goes on. Eventually, Aryan spouses with drinking problems, relatives not quite right in the head or with unusual tics (anyone among the "good Germans" with those sorts of problems) were taken away for free labor until they were worked to death and/or for immediate extermination. Before it was all over, even little Aryan children born with any sort of defect (a stutter, a club foot, a hair-lip, visual/auditory/cognitive problems or delays, anything not perfect enough) were taken into woods and gassed to death inside of vans. Those German citizens were turned in by physicians and social workers ordered to report any unacceptable family members they came across. Those turned in were disappeared too-taken during the night while neighbors slept.

None of that horrendous suffering and history justifies descendants of the wronged victimizing others in any way. We can be intelligent enough to differentiate between predatory behaviors and ethical, legal behaviors among any group of people.

I've read and viewed much material that is agonizingly painful and sickening, describing experiences no movie to date even begins to touch because audiences wouldn't be able to handle it. Knowing the truly horrific experiences people suffered at the hands of the Nazis, I cannot tolerate the use of Nazi-this and Nazi-that thrown around for anyone with a differing viewpoint (femiNazis, ecoNazis, and so forth).

Furthermore, those people who actually survived horrors beyond our imagining but still went on to build productive lives that contributed positively to their communities deserve better than using the Holocaust as an excuse to justify ignoring the predatory behaviors of any descendants of other Holocaust victims. It isn't respectful of Holocaust victims. It isn't right.

Sorry to be so wordy, but I felt compelled to address this topic.

Thanks for reading if you actually got through it. (<:

jezzebbell,

Feel better now?

Yes, thank you.

I don't understand the ring scam. They drop a ring and pretend to find it and say, Is this GOLD ring yours?" Do they then pick-pocket us? Or try to get us to say its ours and then give them a reward? We were in Paris in September and had two different ladies try it on us THREE different times in 15 minutes. The second lady almost tried to approach us again a fourth time, but my husband looked at her as she approached and said "you tried already".

I don't understand the ring scam. >>

nor me, charrisdc.

in fact I seem to have been blissfully ignorant of it. They come anywhere near my, i say "non" and keep walking.

Jezzebbell, I can relate to some degree about scams in the US even though the story I am about to relay does not identify the offenders as gypsies.

My DH owns a shop on an industrial street and has security cameras all around its perimeter. One day a customer, who my DH knows well, came in to buy something. The customer was in the shop 10 mins at the most.

After he leaves, my husband looks at the video montior and sees this customer about to get into a fist fight. He goes out to see what is going on and finds out that these scum artists are complaining the customer scratched their car.

They carry on for a few more minutes and my DH brings the customer into his office and tells him he has a security camera and plays back the video. While he is doing this the scum artists leave.

The video shows the scum artists backing into a space and hitting the customer's car. A few hours later the insurance company for the scum calls the customer demanding money.

This plays out for a few hours until they inform the insurance company they have a video of what really accurred. After that the customer never heard from the insurance company.

So video cameras to the rescue but they are not always around when scams like this are pulled off.

"scum artists" I like that.

I don't get the ring scam, either. I mean I don't understand why it is so prevalent and how it can be successful enough to make it a current career choice for so many of these folks. There must be some school or word just gets around, maybe they get together and talk about their various schemes du jour, who knows. For example, right now it is very common for beggars on the streets of Paris (I assume homeless) to have pets with them. So this is now the thing to do. Some have more than one, yesterday I saw a couple guys with FIVE huge dogs between the two of them, on the sidewalk. Usually it is small dogs or cats, though, and this really bothers me. It is odd how they mostly seem to be able to keep these animals sleeping and by them, though, I wonder if they are drugged or something (seems unlikely, but they are remarkably quiet).

As for the ring, no one has tried it on me, but I've seen it a few times. I think the idea is usually they say they found this great gold ring and do you want to pay them for it? This just seems so strange to me that this could be successful -- ever, actually, but certainly not a lot. Who wants to go around buying gold rings from itinerants who pick one off the street? totally baffles me, but I assume some people must give them money or they wouldn't keep doing it. I guess, I don't think these folks obviously are very sharp.

Someone did approach me behind Notre Dame in the garden yesterday about some deaf/mute thing. They came up and asked me if I spoke English -- I replied no, in French, and actually said more than that so it wasn't just "non". Didn't stop them, they put this paper in front of my face to sign pointing to some words in English (about deaf something). I told her again in French to beat it, I wasn't interested (and not in very polite language). She did pretty quickly, I think she was a bit taken aback by my response, which was rather blunt.

The best response to "Do you speak English?" or the ring scam or being surrounded by the petition people is to say absolutely nothing. Pretend you don't see or hear them, don't make eye contact, keep walking (unless you're sitting of course) and have a jaded look on your face that says I've seen this a million times and I'm not falling for it. Works for me 100% of the time. If they are persistent, keep ignoring. They will leave eventually, although maybe not before calling you a few unpleasant names.

Saying something is an invitation for them to continue speaking to you because now you have opened a line of communication with them. Doesn't matter if it's a negative line of communication, they want your attention any way they can get it. And if you find yourself surrounded by the petition people shoving papers in your face, immediately grab your valuables and hold them tight before doing anything else. They are looking to distract you while one of them tries to pickpocket you.

If they are persistent, keep ignoring. They will leave eventually, although maybe not before calling you a few unpleasant names. >>

some of these lovely people cropped up in the tuscan backwater where i did a language course in May. when i pulled our teacher away and explained that it was a scam [try saying that in pigeon italian!] she didn't believe me - until i pointed out that if they really were charity workers, they wouldn't be swearing at us. and finally the penny dropped.

When they ask my if i speak english i usually tell them I'm cornish. that puzzles them for long enough for me to make my getaway.

Ann: being "cornish" is a lot better than being "corny".

Just teasing!

Ann: being "cornish" is a lot better than being "corny".>>

ah, righ'on.

On Saturday, the Paris Chief of Police had his smartphone stolen by one of these scammers, as she ask him to sign one of those bogus petitions. Now that he knows what it's like, maybe he'll work harder to do something about it.

They've been mostly cleaned out of the Champs and the area near the Louvre for the moment, but they are loitering around the Tuileries and (so I've been told) are still a big problem at Sacré-Coeur.

perhaps the chief of police doesn't go to Montmartre very often?

As of last week, they were definitely around the Tuileries. The petition people are rampant, and we saw ring people twice too.

OK, if the Paris police chief was a victim, maybe we on Fodor's can stop blaming victims for being naive and unaware of their surroundings and congratulating ourselves for having avoided being scammed.

The Paris Chief of Police???

LOL!

He hasn't been the only VIP victim. A high-ranking official of one of France's government spook agencies lost his smartphone in exactly the same way while sitting at a café in Paris in early September. Supposedly there was no classified information on the phone, but it did have a few "sensitive" telephone numbers.

>On Saturday, the Paris Chief of Police had his smartphone stolen by one of these scammers<

Priceless.......

This is the same chief of police who personally arrested a guy running an illegal gambling scam on the bridge in front of the Eiffel Tower some months ago. At least he doesn't seem to be living in an ivory tower. I hope having his smartphone stolen will encourage him to get tougher on all the scam artists that currently infest the city.

The OP gives a reference that makes no mention of a commissaire de police having been taken by such a scam.

For the sake of clarification, I'll rephrase my last posting:

Could we get a reference to the fact that some police official--"chief of police" does not sound right--was scammed?

yes, I'd like to see that reference also.
The Chief of Police in Paris is Michael Gaudin (yes, that is his office). You can Google his name and find various things including his speaking out about the rise in phone theft in Paris. But I can't find a reference to his phone being stolen. If it indeed happened, it seems it would easily pop up on Google -- no?

Michel ( without the "a") Gaudin. Interesting, as Paris as an administrative region is the only one with two préfets. In my mind, his duties are larger than those of a chief of police; there is a problem in being somewhat aware of the different national hierarchical structures.

Here's one source:

The thieves at the Gare de Lyon train station distracted Paris police prefect Michel Gaudin by asking him to sign a petition and swiped the mobile telephone from his pocket, sources told AFP.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10760553

An article in French in Le Parisien:

http://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/paris-le-prefet-de-police-se-fait-derober-un-smartphone-19-10-2011-1660482.php

Thanks.

Yes, thanks for the links. But I'm sitting here scratching my head at that Starbuck's story. They did two posters -- one of a 'dark skinned man' and one of a white woman both as targets of pickpockets -- and they had to remove them because of claims of racism. Huh? Dark skinned people can't be victims along with white people? Is there no end to the ignorant PC patrol?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/a-farewell-to-alms-sarkozy-launches-war-on-paris-beggars-20111214-1oux9.html

After the Romanian police finish the job in Paris there'll be work for them in Sydney -

http://www.smh.com.au/national/why-romanians-specialise-in-atm-skimming-20111215-1ow7w.html