How should we make our way from Zurich to Southern Tuscany?

If you pick up a car in Switzerland and drop in Italy you will have a big drop-off fee.

Hi taconictraveler---we will be doing a similar trip next June with our daughters, flying in and out of Zürich, but traveling to Tuscany. We plan to travel all by train, but that doens't mean it would be right for you too.

kybourbon has a good point about the drop fees for one-way rentals. Do check that out before you choose that option.

With 11 days, you have an abundance of options and can include several of your plans listed above. For example, you could spent a couple of days at Kusnacht, then continue by train into Italy. Head for Bolzano (I believe the route takes you through Milan) and rent a car there to visit the Dolomites. You could return the car and continue south by train, or keep it and travel south that way.

Frankly, we found driving in Italy a bit nerve-wracking, which is why we are not doing it this time. But that was in the Veneto region---maybe the drivers there are especially fast and reckless. Once we got off the Autostrada it was better . . . but still not particularly relaxing.

Fattoria di Celle? It's closer to Pistoia than Lucca. Visits/tours are possible April through September by reservation. Note the warning that the tour involves a 3-4 hour "hike."

http://www.sculpture.org/documents/parksdir/p&g/gori/gori.shtml

In june there are a lot of interesting cultural and historical activities in Italy. I can only speak for my region (south-piedmont) where we have in june:
- re-enactment of the Siege of Canelli (http://www.assediodicanelli.it/ 3th weekend of june)
- Sagra della Robiola in Roccaverano (cheese festivities in the little village that is known for this goat cheese)
And a lot of other little village celebrations.

kybourbon: Yes, I had heard there would be a big drop off charge for such a car rental.

Do you know if there is ALSO still a sort of stigma about taking rental cars IN to Italy? (I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams why anyone would think that Italian drivers and roads are wilder than any other, although I still remember my terrors driving along the autostrada through the mountains from Milan to Tuscany!!)

I think we will therefore probably try to train to Milan and pick up a car there for the balance of the trip.

Jean: Thanks for that very helpful info. We almost went to Fattoria di Celle a few years ago but had forgotten the details. So glad to get the website from you.

I know it's a big walk around. I am a good walker, but I'm not so sure DH will be in to that. However, I'll now research it more.

Enzian: We certainly are considering train travel, esp. since PALENQUE put me on to the Budget Europe Travel sched. about various trains.

What looks like a smart option is perhaps to stay in Zurich at least overnight (to rest and renew after overnight flight from JFK) and then take one of those wonderful trains (either the Bernina Express over the top of the Alps, or the William Tell, with a boat from Luzern to Fluelen, then a train down toward Milan) -- and then rent a car at Milan-Malpensa for the balance of our journey (we will want a car in Tuscany)

At the same time, I am not looking forward to driving on the autostrada in Italy. I don't mind the local driving or driving around the Val d'Orcia, but DH is not an aggressive driver and the autostrada will no doubt unnerve him.

We've done a fair amount of train travel in Europe, mostly in Switzerland, but with a small group of train buffs.

However, we may consider more trains this time, cuz it looks like one can organize it better now than in the past.

Can you tell me what trains you are taking and where to?? any tips greatly appreciated.

Agriturismo_Verdita: Thanks for those suggestions. I'm going to research the south Piedmont, where they say the food is just great!!

Also do you happen to know if there is a website for very nice Agriturismos in the top half of Italy??

Thanks for any help you can give in that direction.

The food ... of course !!! ... yes it's great, but I think you will find out that it's great everywhere in Italy. Try as much as possible the local dishes and you'll see that there's a lot of difference in the Italian kitchen.

Here in Piemonte truffle season just started now, mmmmm, love it ! Tomorrow there's a trufflewalk for the guests with our local trufflehunter and if we're lucky he gives us the little ones that he can't sell anyway.

There are really a lot of agriturismo's in Italy and you can find them easily through google.
You can look for example with the keywords "Agriturismo Piemonte" and you will have so many choices. And then you look for the things you find important, for example if they have a restaurant or not, apartments versus B&B service, ...

You don't have to use the Autostrada. You can get around easily (if slower) on secondary roads. Just have good maps.

Jean: Isn't it weird how sometimes we don't even think of the easiest answers?

Thanks for giving me a great idea. I'm getting out my really good Italy map, and charting a different route. After all, we have plenty of time.

Hi,

Your trip sounds nice. We rented a car for three weeks in Germany and drove to Italy then on the France and Belguim and back to Germany this May so we didn't have a drop off charge. We had no pproblem going from one country to another. We have rented in one country and dropped it off in another in the past. If the fee doesn't brother you, go for a car especially since you want to explore some. It is so much easier.

We drove mostly secondary roads during our week in Italy, but did use the Motorways to move from one country to another and had no problem. We are both 65 so we aren't spring chickens. We spent a week in Cortona.

If you are interested in what we did see our daily blog of the trip with pictures at:

www.aroundtheworlsin132days.blogspot.com

Have fun!

taconictraveler, thanks to you I have added the Dolomites back into our trip.

We are taking our 2 daughters on this trip to celebrate their graduation from high school and college. They have been to Switzerland before, and also Paris and London, so we thought Italy this time. But we are flying into and out of Zürich, because I can't even think of a trip to Europe without a stop in Switzerland. We are flying from the west coast of the US so have along journey. Like you, we got business class tickets using miles. This part will be a surprise for the girls.

We will spend the night of our arrival (late afternoon, after a transfer at Heathrow) in Zürich. We have a favorite restaurant for dinner but will be trying different (more moderate in cost) hotel this time.

I planned to take the train the following day into Italy, with a stop for a couple of nights along one of the lakes. But my husband wants to take the girls to see Milan, and hopefully attend the opera or the ballet at La Scala. I discovered today that we can save at least 120 euro on hotels if we stay in Milan on a Saturday night instead of a weeknight. So . . . I tinkered with the itinerary and plan to take the train directly from Zürich to Milan (a 3-hour journey via Lugano) the day after our arrival, and skip the lakes until our return. That way, we sill have time for a quick visit to the Dolomites, which makes me very happy, as I love that area and want to share it with my family.

Our route through Italy will now take us in a clockwise loop, from Milan to Bolzano, into the Val Gardena, and back to Bolzano (this portion with a rented car). We will turn in the car at Bolzano and take the train to Lucca---a long day of 6 hours on the train. We will spend 3 or 4 nights in Lucca, visiting sites in Tuscany from there, and then work our way back up the coast of Liguria and then the lakes (Como) back to Switzerland for our return flight.

While we plan to do the bulk of our travel by train, I agree with Jean who said you can stay on secondary roads in Italy and not feel as vulnerable as on the autostrada.

Enzian: Glad to be of help. That's what I love about Fodorites!
Tell me more please about the train from Zurich to Milan, do you change in Lugano? And does that train have a special name? Are you getting tickets ahead of time?

We're trying to decide about stopping in Lake Como, where we have a favorite place in Lenno, and also want to spend at least one night in Zurich area, probably Kusnacht, which I love, but maybe in town.

I've been to La Scala on a previous trip to Milan, and Boy! was it wonderful. It was Riccardo Muti conducting the Opera Orchestra performing Beethoven's Ninth. It was as though I had never heard it played before!!

cwn: I couldn't find your blog. Is there another way to get to it? that hot link didn't work for me. thanks.

Hi taconictraveler---there are lots of trains each day from Zürich to Milan. According to the schedule on the Swiss rail website, www.rail.ch (in English), there is a 9:01 am direct train that goes via Lugano but no changes. There is an 11:09 train with a change at Lugano. Both take around 3h 40min. Both are "Cisalpino" trains with compulsory reservations, but the one with a change in Lugano uses an IC (intercity) "tilting train" for the Zurich to Lugano portion, which sounds interesting.

Since an 11:00 am departure fits better with our daughters' sleep habits, we'll probably do that one. Of course, the schedules could certain change over the next nine months, but in my experience they don't change much. I'll probably reserve on the website a week or two before we go.

There are other trains that travel via Bern and Brig, but those take longer, and we have been that way lots of times. The Lugano route will be new for us.

For the Lake portion, we will go to Lago di Como, but stay in Varenna. We can visit other places by boat from there, and we'll probably include Como itself, as today I discovered the Silk Museum there, and I think the girls might find that interesting (I know I would).

Thanks. this is good information. Do you usually travel first or second class?I presume this train goes thru tunnels in the alps.

The other choice will be to take the Bernina Express and go over the top, but not thru tunnels.- but that takes us further East, which is OK if we do decide on the Dolomites.

We also might go to Milan to rent a car, then go back up to Como, so that we can return the car there later, with no drop off charges.

Do you have a favorite hotel in Varenna?

The Cisalpino (which is quite often late) from Milan to Zürich takes the same route as other trains. You'll go through many tunnels, especially in the area before and after the Gotthard tunnel.

The Bernina Express is indeed more scenic and stunning but more time-consuming. You will still go through some short tunnels but nothing like the Gotthard tunnel. The Upper and Lower Engadine is picture postcard perfect with its quaint houses and small villages.

The Gotthard tunnel in itself is nothing special. Just a long dark ride. However the magic of it is the remarkable change of scenery, architecture and weather upon going through the tunnel. Before entering the tunnel, you might have rainy, cold or foggy weather. On the other side, the bright sun will greet you as it shines through glorious blue skies.

It's like going from Seattle to LA by train in a matter of a few hours.

Schuler---is the Cisalpino late in the southbound direction (starting from Zürich) as well?

We will be taking both routes---the fast train Zürich to Milan on our way into Italy; the Bernina Express on the return.

taconictraveler---we travel second class in Switzerland and first class in Italy. I guess I'll have to flip a coin to decide what we do on the Zürich to Milan ride.

It doesn't matter which direction the Cisalpino goes. However, they've improved a bit with their punctuality lately so you most probably won't notice a thing!

schuler---do you have a recooemdation for first versus second class on the Cisalpinos? Or do you usually drive when you head to Ticino?

Your comparison to Seattle to LA in 3 hours is great. How I wish!! Alas, our trains can't even get to Portland in 3 hours.

Thank you all. This info is very helpful. We have experienced that incredible change of weather in the past.

Keep the info. coming. It's terrific.

Have a great weekend!

Enzian, except for rare occasions, I always travel second class. I don't see the advantage of travelling first class from Milan to Zürich since seats usually have to be reserved for either class anyway.+

I guess we won't have to worry about the Cisalpino lateness next summer. The joint venture is ending December 13:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news_digest/Cisalpino_reaches_end_of_the_line.html?siteSect=104&sid=11268728&cKey=1253886821000&ty=nd

Cross-border service will now be provided by each country's train companies separately. I guess I know which one I will book!

Enzian: from your experiences, I am guessing you will take the Swiss trains, and will book second class. Am I missing anything? and will there be a change of train in Lugano, if we choose zurich to Milan?

That's right---we'll take the Swiss train and go second class.

We'll have to wait and see what this change does to the schedules after December 13. Right now there is one train a day that does NOT require a change of trains in Lugano; that is the 9:01am departure. Even if the schedule remains the same, we'll never get the girls up in time to catch that one. But maybe it would work for you.

You asked about our favorite hotel in Varenna. Actually, I've never been there, but relying on advice from friends and family members who have, I'm booking Albergo Milano.

It is interesting about booking now for next June. Some of the popular, more "touristy" places are accepting bookings---I have so far booked our hotel in Varenna, and Monterosso al Mare. Also in Zürich, although that is not a major tourist destination. On the other hand, the hotels I've tried in Luzern and Milan won't show dates past January, and places I've e-mailed in Lucca don't respond.
I assume that means they don't want to be bothered with June reservations just yet.

Enjoy La Foce. We were there last year and it is lovely.

thanks enzian and

to Greynomad: I've been to La Foce a few times, staying in different houses, always on a "girls" trip - now going with DH next June.

Did you stay in one of the houses?

Oh, Enzian, I forgot to say, we haven't booked in Zurich yet, though pretty sure we'll want to stay at least a night before going down to Italy.

I LOVE the Hotel Sonne which is on the lake at Kusnacht, where I stayed for 2 weeks when I took a seminar at the Jung Institute in 1994. Unfortunately, it has gotten more expensive, but we might stay there anyway. It is right on the lake,and right at the boat dock, and has a beer garden in the front. a real delight.