I didn't have to even read your post- just looking at the countries tagged and '11 days' - yes that is too much driving.

In fact driving isn't even the best way to travel to most of those places.

You have listed 8 destinations (Zurich twice) - that will leave less than 1/2 day free in each one.

11 days = plan on three destinations max . . .

This sounds like a "Hit and Run" trip to me; please rethink it. As young as you and your wife must be (with teenage children), this will probably not be your one and only "trip of a lifetime". Enjoy this vacation with your family at a more leisurely pace and save the other places for the next time.

Insane!

Since you're only stopping in cities I would not drive at all - take trains! If you don't have to return the car to Zurich you could fly into one location and fly home from another, saving backtracking time.

The real problem is that you're visiting 6 cities in 11 days. Subtract 3 to 4 days for driving leaves you with 6 cities in 7 or 8 days.

You'll only have time for a quick look at any of these places.

In my experience, the drive times you get from the internet are not accurate. They depend on a certain speed which is not realistic (you won't always be driving on highways as you need time to get to highways and to slow down for toll booths, etc.). I always add 25% to whatever drive time I'm given; a number that is much more accurate. And then you'll need time to stop for food, gas, health breaks. You are definitely not looking at 22 hours of driving but probably closer to 30 hours if you never get lost.

Additionally, highway driving in Europe is like highway driving any place else. Nothing much of interest to look at. Lots of cars and macadam. And you certainly don't have time for scenic routes.

Then there's all the packing and unpacking for each stop and trying to familiarize yourselves with a new city.

Two to three locations in 11 days would be much better.

Crazy? Yes.

You only have 10 full days, and you're considering 6 cities/regions. The hours of driving are not the problem. The problem is you won't have time to properly see any of the places you're driving to.

First of all, maps.google is a great resource but the driving times are almost always optimistic. Google also doesn't take into account the need for pit stops, food stops, gas stops, photo stops, as-long-as-we're-here stops for something interesting. Or traffic jams, accidents and any number of other potential causes for delays. You should assume that any drive that should take a half day could actually eat up a good part of a day. Consider it bonus time if you arrive anywhere near the Google estimate.

Unless you're flying to Zurich from somewhere in Europe, you can't (or, rather, shouldn't) jump in the car and drive 3+ hours to Milan, not to mention the insanity of driving into Milan. You could perhaps drive to Andermatt, spend the night, and then head to Venice the next day.

Both Vienna and Prague don't make sense in the time you have.

Unless your flight out of Zurich is at night, you should return to Zurich the day prior to your departure.

Zurich to Milan transit time can easily explode if there are queues at the Gotthard tunnel - waiting a couple of hours in summer is very frequent. As for Venice to Vienna, it takes the better part of a day; when you get there, you have the feeling that the place is more remote than you were suspecting. As Prince von Metternich said, "Asia begins at Landstrasse" (the first road just east of Vienna).

> ,,, flying into Zurich July 1st. We depart July 12th. We have much we want to see: the Swiss Alps, northern Italy, Venice, Vienna or Salzburg, Prague, and Munich. ... Is this crazy? ... Here's the problem: my wife's "musts" include Venice and Prague.

Then consider going AT MOST to Zurich, Venice, and Prague. Depending on your interests, you can (perhaps) fit the highlights of these 3 cities in. You really don't have time for anything else - and you won't even be able to see all that these 3 cities offer.

Have you consulted some good guide books? They should prove very helpful.

Hope that helps!

In case you're still considering this trip you need to be fully aware of the driving rules for rental cars in each country. Vignettes, reflective vests, etc. Will the rental company allow you to take a car into these countries? In Italy, your credit card does not cover the CDW (usually Visa covers you if you refuse the CDW) so you will need to take full insurance, including theft insurance required in Italy.

If your wife's musts are Venice and Prague - go to Venice and Prague!
You may add Vienna in between, which is somehow on the way.
You'd see the Dolomite Alpes on your way from Venice to Vienna - different than the Swiss Alpes but not less fantastic.
But probably you need to fly into Zürich.

Thanks for the responses. I won't be in Zurich twice, however; it's the city into which we're flying.

We are choosing to drive because rail passes will cost us $2,000.

<< rail passes will cost us $2,000. >>

Are you sure? Did you check the individual country train web sites for good prices on advanced sales? Or did you only look at passes which often are high priced.

Some countries have regional passes, such as the Bavaria pass, that allows 5 people traveling together a 1 day ticket for E30. So your whole family can travel from Munich to Salzburg for E30 and you can use the pass on Munich public transportation on that day.

I believe Switzerland also has a country-specific pass.

Have you figured out how much the car will cost for the rental, gas, tolls?

Your problem is not driving time. You problem is that you are trying to see way too many places in very little time.

We do road trips in europe all the time - have done more than 25 of them. But never anythitng that looks like this. We stay 4 nights (3 days) in larger cities - and 4 nights (2 days) in smaller places - but that is if we have either 1_ been thre before or 2) don;t have THAT many things to see.

You actually have only 10 days on the ground. I would do cities in that time - but yuo could squash in a 3rd (realizing you're just skimming the surface) but more than that means you will spend the bulk of yuor time in transit rather than seeing or doing anything.

And you simply can't add up a whole number of distances and say 22 hours. You need to figure time packing, checking out of hotel, finding you way out of the city, stopping for gas, potty and meals - and the reverse at the other end. So basically from one city to another you are using more than half your days just trekking from one place to anohter.

So, what I wold do is list the days one by one, including what you will see that day, how long it will take to get you back to a pcked car, how many hours on the road and where you will spend the night.

Add up the time it takes to see the sights you are going to these places for - and see how long it takes. Unless you will spend the whole trip just driving by places - a very expesnsive waste of time.

Sorry - one more point -for 5 adults with luggage - even minimal luggage - you will need to pay to rent a very large car - as well as fill it with gas again and again at $9 per gallon. If you have a lot of luggage a full size sedan won;t work and yuo will probably need a van. (I have experience from one trip with a SIL who is a heavy packer - 29" bag plus 2 carry-ons and a purse the size of Nebraska.)

As for driving - we limit it to 4 hours per day - which we share - so we have time to stop and explore a town and have a pleasant lunch even on "driving" days.

Ah, yes, petrol and tolls... viamichelin.com estimates the petrol and toll costs of your drive (including Prague) at 500 euros. That's about $700. It could be a bit higher since you need a 5-passenger vehicle which will get worse mileage. And the vehicle will likely cost about $1,000. And you'll have overnight parking charges, perhaps not every night but certainly most nights. If you violate a Limited Traffic Zone in any of these cities that has one, you'll get a traffic ticket in the mail after you get home.

I think you should re-consider the train idea. Bonus: If you're the driver, you'll have a much more enjoyable, less stressful time.

>>I won't be in Zurich twice, however; it's the city into which we're flying.<<

But you still have to 'be there' twice. Even if you don't step foot IN the city you have to account for the time to get from Zurich to wherever and from wherever else to Zurich. So yes, you do hit Zurich twice.

As for rail passes vs driving-since you can't possibly manage this itinerary w/ EITHER mode of transport, your calculations are probably WAY off.

Flying open jaw would have been better - even if it cost a little more. As it is you are hitting Zurich twice and don't even want to stop there.

Back to the drawing board - pick the 2 or 3 places you really want to visit, and THEN figure out the best transport. Which probably won't be a railpass OR driving.

Driving will easily cost you $2,000, too - maybe more. This is a really ill-conceived, expensive trip whether you drive or take the train. It's truly a shame to waste all that time and energy seeing nothing.

Thanks, everyone. Excellent points. We're going back to the drawing board.

As for Zurich...unless you come up with some way of flying in/out of the same city on the same day during an 11 day trip, it's impossible not to be there twice.

I appreciate the advice, thank you.

Just a note about Zurich - yes, indeed, we wanted to "hit Zurich," as the mountains one hour south of the city were on our list. I appreciate the advice, but not the suggestion that we're idiots.

Thanks for the helpful tips.

Unfortunately tomsiff - when you step into these forums you must navigate around the "too many" people who take some sort of perverse pleasure in doing little more than ridiculing people who do not do, or see, things the way they do. To have the audacity to consider spending less than 3 days in any place (which frequently have to be places they deem worthy) and to think that you can teleport yourself between destinations (you do know that moving hundreds of kilometers takes time, don't you" Whew, I wasn't sure) is cause for a big ole slap of condescension. You will, no doubt, figure out who they are and give their advice the appropriate consideration.

Taking all the information you have given; Vienna or Salzburg are musts and Prague is the subject of a debate as to it's worthiness. here is a routing to consider;

Zurich
Venice
Salzburg
Munich
Zurich

It is about 1450 kms, or 15 hours driving. I don't think this is ideal, especially if driving, but I will lay out the technical reasons so you can properly consider any re-planning.

You don't seem interested in stopping in Zurich, so that means you need to get "somewhere" after landing. It is about a 5.5 hour drive to Venice, straight, presuming the mountain passes are not the cause of significant slowdowns. Driving that after an overnight transatlantic flight would be exhausting and probably even dangerous. So, how far do you drive the first day and how many days do you stay there, or do you stay 1 night in Zurich and head out the next day? No matter what you choose, at least 1 night is now "gone" and you have 10 nights left - I am presuming you land on the morning of the 1st.

If you continue to Venice directly the second day, you could have 3 nights there (6 left). Venice to Salzburg is a little over 4 hours driving so that can be done fairly easily. Say 2 nights in Salzburg and you have 3 nights in Munich before you have to leave to drive back to Zurich (3 hours) and stay at an airport hotel the last night before your flight back.

Zurich 1
Venice 3 (5.5 hour drive from Zurich)
Salzburg 2 (4:15 hour drive from Venice)
Munich 3 (1:15 hour drive from Salzburg)
Zurich 1 (3 hour drive from Munich)

As I said, not ideal having a pair of 1 nighters in Zurich to sandwich this all up. You could find some place in the Alps south of Zurich and spend your first 2 nights there, dropping one from Venice of Munich, too.

The other issue with driving is that you can't use the vehicle in Venice, don't need to in Salzburg, and shouldn't in Munich. Do you rent it just to provide 14 hours for point to point driving between each of your stays? Of course, there are some things you can do on those travel days with a car, like stopping in the mountains, but each destination can happily fill your time without the need of any day trips or travel that can't be done by subway, vaporetto, or foot as the case might be.

It might make more sense to book point to point rail fares for each leg. The cheapest pricing is available about 90 days in advance (120 days on some national railways) so go to a site like German Rail www.bahn.com (the absolute best) and investigate fares like Zurich -> Venice, and Venice -> Salzburg about 90 days out from now.

Anyway, it's food for thought. Come back when you have hashed it out with the family a little more.

<< unless you come up with some way of flying in/out of the same city on the same day during an 11 day trip, it's impossible not to be there twice >>

You can book flights that originate in one city and terminate in another city. It's call multi-city tickets when you book on line. Airlines do it all the time. It's not mandatory that you fly into one location and home from that same location.

<< I appreciate the advice, but not the suggestion that we're idiots. >>

You asked if the plan was crazy therefore you had some idea already that it was a crazy plan. People here are giving you advice, not calling you an idiot.

We're just trying to make sure that you have all the facts. After all, you didn't know about multiple destination airline tickets. There may be other things you don't know about but can learn.

Aramis,

Wow - many thanks for taking the time to make helpful suggestions, and for your kindness. It is greatly appreciated.

OK, you and others have convinced me that a car is a bad idea -one that I shared yet allowed certain members of my family to sell to me. While I know this would take me 2 hours out of my way (round trip), what if we did this:

1 July - arrive Zurich, train to either Berne or Lucerne for the night
2 July - Berne or Lucerne
3 July - Berne/Lucerne to Munich
4 July - Munich
5 July - Munich
6 July - Munich to Prague
7 July - Prague
8 July - Prague
9 July - Prague to Salzburg
10 July - Salzburg
11 July - Salzburg to Zurich

Thank you for the advice regarding train bookings. I'll compare PTP fares and determine if its best to go that route or a pass.

Again, I appreciate all of your help and look forward to your thoughts on this itinerary. Venice will have to wait.

Adrienne,

Multi-city tickets would have cost me a couple of thousand dollars more. In any case, since my flights are booked it's a moot point.

Thanks.

<<Multi-city tickets would have cost me a couple of thousand dollars more>>

I very much doubt that. It's almost always just about the same or a little bit more. You were probably looking at separate one-way tickets, which is an entirely different thing and could indeed cost a bundle more. The phrasing on airline websites is almost always "multi-city."

Including Prague in favour of Venice actually makes this more challenging from a travel time perspective. The fastest train times are shown below)

1 July - arrive Zurich, train to either Berne or Lucerne for the night (1:00/1:15 hours)
2 July - Berne or Lucerne
3 July - Berne/Lucerne to Munich (6:00/5:40 hours)
4 July - Munich
5 July - Munich
6 July - Munich to Prague (6:00 hours)
7 July - Prague
8 July - Prague
9 July - Prague to Salzburg (6.50 hours)
10 July - Salzburg
11 July - Salzburg to Zurich (6.50 hours)

That is something north of 26 hours of train time, on the fastest trains.

No, I was not. Thanks, though. You can continue to argue if you'd like, however. If that makes you feel good, enjoy.

I was wrong. Just checked. I actually saved myself $2500 going in/out of the same city. Thanks.

I too doubt that !
It was probaly about the same if done correctly.

"Multi-city tickets would have cost me a couple of thousand dollars more. In any case, since my flights are booked it's a moot point.

W/ did you actually look for open jaw, or did you by any chance look for 2 one-way tickets? I have never (ever) booked open jaws that were that much more expensive. Usually they are about the same or even a little less. Unless you picked some really unusual city pairs.

Even when they do cost a little more, they are usually more economical because it saves the cost/hassle of returning to the arrival city.

Multi-destination tickets are not more - they are 1/2 of the RT price to each destination. It sounds like you looked at 2 one-way tickets instead of a multi-destination ticket.

And you did admit up front that the plan was crazy - did yuo expect everyone to tell you how great they are.

Sorry if you don;t like responses that disagree with your ideas - even if they are from someone who has done more than 100 trips to europe - and knows at least a little bit about it and specifically driving trips.

If you are traveling by train I suggest you go at once to bahn.de to get full information on trains schedules based on your itinerary (this has the schedules for ALL of europe - although only fares on trips that originate in Germany).

>>>Adrienne,
Multi-city tickets would have cost me a couple of thousand dollars more. In any case, since my flights are booked it's a moot point.<<<
>>>I was wrong. Just checked. I actually saved myself $2500 going in/out of the same city. Thanks.<<<

Absolutely no way. If the flight to Zurich is $1000 round trip and a flight to Munich as $1200 round trip then a flight to Zurich and home from Munich will run about $1100. Most of us book open jaw tickets (multi-city function on websites, not two one-way tickets which are very expensive).

I just looked at tickets for your exact dates from my city r/t Zurich and it was $1566. Open jaw tickets into Zurich and out of Munich are $1585. A $19 difference. You would spend way more than that on transport backtracking not to mention a travel day wasted (you only have 11 days on the ground and one will be wasted backtracking to Zurich).

We're not arguing, and it doesn't make us feel good that you messed up, as we are actually trying to help you though you don't seem to want it, but you did. I checked ticket prices, too, and NO WAY it would have cost you an extra $2,000. The problem is not on our end, but on yours.

My ticket to Zurich was FAR less than $1,566. Thanks for playing.

"We're not arguing, and it doesn't make us feel good that you messed up, as we are actually trying to help you though you don't seem to want it, but you did. I checked ticket prices, too, and NO WAY it would have cost you an extra $2,000. The problem is not on our end, but on yours."

LOL. Messed up? Yes, I messed up taking a wonderful trip to Europe. Indeed, something's messed up here...

>>>tomsiff on Mar 16, 13 at 10:48pm
My ticket to Zurich was FAR less than $1,566. Thanks for playing.<<<

You don't comprehend what is being said and it's because you are an inexperienced traveler. Those are current prices from my city. List your city and I'll pull those prices and show you they are similar (bet you aren't brave enough!).

You could have bought $700 tickets from your city. Doesn't mean at the exact same time you purchased that tickets to Munich wouldn't have been similar. They are never thousands different-usually within a hundred. You just didn't know how to properly search since you didn't understand open jaw. Last year I booked into Zurich and out of Rome. Zurich r/t would have been $900. Zurich/Rome was $930. I could not have traveled back to Zurich for $30. I also scheduled my flights where my transfer in Amsterdam was 12 hours so I hopped the train and went into the city for the day before catching my flight on to Zurich.

>>>LOL. Messed up? Yes, I messed up taking a wonderful trip to Europe. Indeed, something's messed up here...<<<

You did mess up, but too late to do anything about it now. Your stuck backtracking and now talking about paying for flights from Zurich to Prague.

It's messed up when you think you know more about Europe trips than St Cirq (owns a house in France) and Bob (people hire him to plan their trips). Pretty funny.

People here are trying to teach you so next trip, you won't waste your short vacation time backtracking.

How about a cheap flight to venice (since flying became an option) and train to munich (nighttrain available/but also very scenic at daytime, train passes by verona, bolzano, innsbruck and crosses the alpes at brennero pass.
In Innsbruck, you could also change trains to both, Salzburg (east) or Zürich (west)
Trains to and from Prague are still quite slow, while the scenery is, while alright, not the same as a train ride cross the alpes.

This is one of the most pathetic threads you 'teachers" of travel have ever strung together. Your inability to practice the offering of guidance over administering the pleasure of scolding is stunning.

It is not "help" when it is delivered like it is here. Those of you who do it will no doubt continue to plead such but it is really just a thinly veiled attempt to flaunt what you perceive to be your superiority.

Arimis, not to add to the heat rather than the light but the OP asked for advice on what he termed a "crazy" trip. It IS a crazy trip and much more complicated and expensive than it needed to be. You are not helping by bashing those who have tried to get through to the OP with help. But who is surprised?

Oh, I am quite sure that pointing out that there are people whose primary purpose is to help and not to try and achieve self aggrandizement is helpful to this OP and others who are subject to these kinds of churlish responses.

How does berating someone for a perceived error, already made, help? Is the goal to teach him not to "mess up" next time? That is what you think people come here for?

Just one more self deluded "we are only trying to help" comment.

>>>Is the goal to teach him not to "mess up" next time? That is what you think people come here for?<<<

Why shouldn't it be to keep him from messing up next time? He clearly didn't comprehend multi-city/open jaw or he wouldn't be saying it costs thousands more. When you post a question (Is this crazy?) asking for opinions, you shouldn't be shocked to get them. It would be silly for everyone to tell him his trip/ideas are wonderful when they aren't even practical. Everyone that searches Fodor's in the future will also learn and not make the same mistakes.

On our first road trip in Europe, we did the 11 day excursion, a week Rhine River cruise, and then another 11 days traveling. On that trip we flew in and out of Munich. (have flown in and out of Zurich as well) The first time I used the 10 day routes of a tour company as a guideline and the Michelin books for each country to see the top star rated sights along the way. We loved the countryside and stayed in small guesthouses for single nights and cities like Venice, Nice, Florence, Interlaken, we stayed 2 nights. (We didn't have hotel reservations anywhere except Rome which we got by using getting the hotel we stayed at in Florence to book for us. Last trip I did use the internet to book a few days ahead once we saw the city where we would be)

We personally loved the daily exploring and through the years continued that pace. Once we rented an RV and took our son, daughter-in-law, her mother and our 1 year old grand-daughter on a fun journey through Germany, Italy and Austria after cruising the Danube. Germany is a gorgeous country and on my last trip with my husband before he passed away, we enjoyed it the most. In fact, wound up on this site asking about the safety of my traveling alone by car and saw your question.

Have not done a trip totally by train--only taking day trips from Nice to Monte Carlo and Versailles to Paris. Grocery shopping for picnics along the way is always interesting.

We did take our car on a train through the mountains after leaving Zermatt to go to the Northern Italian Lakes (an experience for us novices). If you like cities, the train might be the way to go. We always loved the beauty, sights, and unexpected experiences traveling by car. (Our stories are many and are especially fun memories now)

You will thoroughly enjoy your adventure however you choose to travel.

Thank you, PatW47

Hi Tomsiff, Not knowing your location or airline but trying to get everyone on the same page to help you, let's try this. Go to www.delta.com and click on "Book a Trip". You will see three options, "Round Trip", "One Way" and "Multi-City". To book the open jaw type of flight others have mentioned you would need the "Multi-City" option.

Testing it myself and using a fairly obscure airport in the USA (Fargo-FAR) and the "Round Trip" option, the flight to (Zurich-ZRH) was $1370-$1500.

Using the "Multi-City" for FAR to ZRH and then MUN (Munich)to FAR it ranged from $1400-$1600.

The costs for individual "One Way" trips for FAR to ZRH and then MUN to FAR were exorbitant.

I'd assume the airline you are trying to book on would have similar options. Take a look to see if that method matches what you're doing. Good luck! I've been to Prague and was just in Venice this past fall (along with Slovenia which is stunning). I've also been to Germany but not Munich. You'll love Europe!