How do you say it??
Aug 27th, 2004, 05:52 PM
#9
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I think "cmt" nailed it. In English words,
PEE-no GREE-joe
Where the GREE is GREEN without the N, and capitalization indicates the accented syllables.
It is NOT PEE-no GREE-jee-oh, although most people mispronounce it that way. That is, the second "i" in "grigio" is not sounded. That "i" is there only to soften the "g", and it is not pronounced. Its function is the same as the "i" in "ciao", which is pronounced like the English word "chow", and not "chee-ow".
I'm not a native speaker of Italian, but I've been studying it for several years.
- Larry
PEE-no GREE-joe
Where the GREE is GREEN without the N, and capitalization indicates the accented syllables.
It is NOT PEE-no GREE-jee-oh, although most people mispronounce it that way. That is, the second "i" in "grigio" is not sounded. That "i" is there only to soften the "g", and it is not pronounced. Its function is the same as the "i" in "ciao", which is pronounced like the English word "chow", and not "chee-ow".
I'm not a native speaker of Italian, but I've been studying it for several years.
- Larry
Aug 27th, 2004, 06:12 PM
#10
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I am italian and if you want my 2 cent opinion, here it is:
I say Pinot in the French way (Pinot after all is or isn't a french word???), that is by stressing not much the "I", but the "O" .
As far as Grigio, it is as cmt stated: gree-joe and not as GaiusJulius wrote ("greeee-shio"
.
I say Pinot in the French way (Pinot after all is or isn't a french word???), that is by stressing not much the "I", but the "O" .
As far as Grigio, it is as cmt stated: gree-joe and not as GaiusJulius wrote ("greeee-shio"
.
Aug 27th, 2004, 06:28 PM
#11
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I obviously have to yield to Batuffolina, the native Italian, on the stress on "pinot". But actually, French words are not stressed on the last syllable. French words in a sentence have no stressed syllables at all. All the syllables are pronounced with exactly the same stress.
What IS stressed in French is the last syllable of a "sense group", a group of words united by their meaning. Often this is an entire sentence, or at least a clause. So when the French pronounce a word all by itself, it comprises the entire sense group, and it gets stressed on the last syllable. But there is no stress inside a sentence.
So, in any event, I'll modify my pronunciation, by removing the stress on the "PEE", to:
pee-no GREE-joe
As Batuffolina points out, the only reason "pinot" is pronounced the way it is is because it is a French word. There are no native Italian words ending in "ot". The only other common ones are "paletot" (also from French), and "robot" and "spot", taken from English.
"Grigio" means "gray" (or "grey" if you're British). The wine is made from a Gray Pinot grape.
- Larry
What IS stressed in French is the last syllable of a "sense group", a group of words united by their meaning. Often this is an entire sentence, or at least a clause. So when the French pronounce a word all by itself, it comprises the entire sense group, and it gets stressed on the last syllable. But there is no stress inside a sentence.
So, in any event, I'll modify my pronunciation, by removing the stress on the "PEE", to:
pee-no GREE-joe
As Batuffolina points out, the only reason "pinot" is pronounced the way it is is because it is a French word. There are no native Italian words ending in "ot". The only other common ones are "paletot" (also from French), and "robot" and "spot", taken from English.
"Grigio" means "gray" (or "grey" if you're British). The wine is made from a Gray Pinot grape.
- Larry
Aug 27th, 2004, 06:29 PM
#12
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<i>That "i" is there only to soften the "g", and it is not pronounced</i>
If it's there to soften the second "g" in Grigio, wouldn't the second syllable be more like Momma_Love spelled it -- "jhoh" -- rather than "joe"?
If it's there to soften the second "g" in Grigio, wouldn't the second syllable be more like Momma_Love spelled it -- "jhoh" -- rather than "joe"?
Aug 27th, 2004, 07:17 PM
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Capo, good question, but no. Think of "gelato", which starts like the English word "gel" (or "Jello". The "g" is not like the "ge" in the english word "beige".
What's meant by "soft" depends on the language. The three letters or combinations of interest here in Italian are g, c, and sc (I'll call them "combinations". Using English words to show the pronunciation of these Italian combinations:
Soft G: as in "gel" (Italian "geloto"
Hard G: as in "go" (Italian "golfo"
Soft C: as the ch in "chow" (Italian "ciao"
Hard C: as the k in "king" (Italian "caffè"
Soft SC: as the sh in "show" (It. "scenario"
Hard SC: as the sc in "scant" (It. "scala"
Each of these combinations is soft in front of an i or e, and hard in front of everything else.
To make one of these hard in front of an i or e, an h is inserted in front of the i or e. Since h is not an i or e, following the rule, the pronunciation becomes hard (and all h's are silent in Italian, so they add nothing themselves). That's why "spaghetti" has a hard g. If it were spelled "spagetti", it would be pronounced "spa-jetty". And by the way, "bruschetta" is pronounced "brew-sketta", not "brew-shetta". And the football player Teddy Bruschi pronounces his name the Italian way, "brew-skee".
To make one of the above combinations soft in front of anything that is NOT an i or an e, an i is inserted after the combination. The trouble is, unlike an h, an i DOES have a sound of its own. So there's another rule: when an i follows one of these combinations, and preceeds another vowel, it is generally not pronounced. But there are exceptions to that rule, particularly with some stressed i's in certain endings, like "farmacia" ("pharmacy", pronounced far-ma-CHEE-ah).
And there you have it.
- Larry
. The "g" is not like the "ge" in the english word "beige".What's meant by "soft" depends on the language. The three letters or combinations of interest here in Italian are g, c, and sc (I'll call them "combinations"
. Using English words to show the pronunciation of these Italian combinations:Soft G: as in "gel" (Italian "geloto"
Hard G: as in "go" (Italian "golfo"
Soft C: as the ch in "chow" (Italian "ciao"
Hard C: as the k in "king" (Italian "caffè"
Soft SC: as the sh in "show" (It. "scenario"
Hard SC: as the sc in "scant" (It. "scala"
Each of these combinations is soft in front of an i or e, and hard in front of everything else.
To make one of these hard in front of an i or e, an h is inserted in front of the i or e. Since h is not an i or e, following the rule, the pronunciation becomes hard (and all h's are silent in Italian, so they add nothing themselves). That's why "spaghetti" has a hard g. If it were spelled "spagetti", it would be pronounced "spa-jetty". And by the way, "bruschetta" is pronounced "brew-sketta", not "brew-shetta". And the football player Teddy Bruschi pronounces his name the Italian way, "brew-skee".
To make one of the above combinations soft in front of anything that is NOT an i or an e, an i is inserted after the combination. The trouble is, unlike an h, an i DOES have a sound of its own. So there's another rule: when an i follows one of these combinations, and preceeds another vowel, it is generally not pronounced. But there are exceptions to that rule, particularly with some stressed i's in certain endings, like "farmacia" ("pharmacy", pronounced far-ma-CHEE-ah).
And there you have it.
- Larry
Aug 31st, 2004, 04:02 PM
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I used to pronounce it as "...joe" until my last trip to Italy when in a store, buying my husband a grey sweater, was tols by the clerk that it was "GREE-jhoh" not "GREE-joe." Perhaps she was not from the area and it was a dialect thing. (Like upon hearing someone in Pisa saying "SHEEN-kweh" instead of CHEEN-kweh [for "5"], I asked my relative if that's how it was pronounced there, and his response [dissmissively] was "Florentines!"
I happen to have my Italian textbook with me, and difinitively, these are the explanations on pronunciation for "g":
g=g before a,o,u and all consonants, pronounce with a hard "g" as in "gas." gatto (GAH-ttoh) cat
g=j before e and i, pronounce with a "j" sound as in "just." gita (JEE-tah) trip
gh=g before e and i, use the hard 'g' sound. spaghetti (spah-GEH-ttee)
gi=j before a, o, and u, pronounce with a "j" sound. giorno (JOHR-noh) day
gli=lly pronounce like "lli" in "million." figlia (FEE-llyah) daughter
gn=ny like the "ny" in "canyon." gnocchi (NYOH-kkee) dumplings
Perhaps I shall have confidence in my teacher and my own understanding of pronunciation rather than that of an Italian I meet in Italy? I think so, but as long as a native speaking Italian understands what I am saying I am pleased.
I happen to have my Italian textbook with me, and difinitively, these are the explanations on pronunciation for "g":
g=g before a,o,u and all consonants, pronounce with a hard "g" as in "gas." gatto (GAH-ttoh) cat
g=j before e and i, pronounce with a "j" sound as in "just." gita (JEE-tah) trip
gh=g before e and i, use the hard 'g' sound. spaghetti (spah-GEH-ttee)
gi=j before a, o, and u, pronounce with a "j" sound. giorno (JOHR-noh) day
gli=lly pronounce like "lli" in "million." figlia (FEE-llyah) daughter
gn=ny like the "ny" in "canyon." gnocchi (NYOH-kkee) dumplings
Perhaps I shall have confidence in my teacher and my own understanding of pronunciation rather than that of an Italian I meet in Italy? I think so, but as long as a native speaking Italian understands what I am saying I am pleased.
Aug 31st, 2004, 04:24 PM
#19
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I have no idea how "jh" (a spelling that doesn't mean anything in American English, that I know of) is different from "j".
I suppose the intent is to say more or less "d" in front of the "j" - - as for example - - the reason that Jakarta is sometimes spelled Djakarta - - giving it a very different sound from Zsa Zsa (as in Gabor)
There are regional differences in the amount of "d" people pronounce (here in the US? in all English speaking countries?) when a "j" sound is at the front of a word - - some people pronounce Justine and Jughead with the same initial consonant - - others may use a more (affected?) "French" "zh" for Justine.
But the distinction in the middle of a word is more clearcut - - example: ledger and leisure.
And I think that the same principle applies to Grigio - - much more like leisure ("gree-zhoh"?) - - and NOT particularly like ledger ("greed-joe".
I suppose the intent is to say more or less "d" in front of the "j" - - as for example - - the reason that Jakarta is sometimes spelled Djakarta - - giving it a very different sound from Zsa Zsa (as in Gabor)
There are regional differences in the amount of "d" people pronounce (here in the US? in all English speaking countries?) when a "j" sound is at the front of a word - - some people pronounce Justine and Jughead with the same initial consonant - - others may use a more (affected?) "French" "zh" for Justine.
But the distinction in the middle of a word is more clearcut - - example: ledger and leisure.
And I think that the same principle applies to Grigio - - much more like leisure ("gree-zhoh"?) - - and NOT particularly like ledger ("greed-joe"
.
Sep 2nd, 2004, 07:11 AM
#20
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No, the "g" sound in "grigio" is definitely NOT like the sound (~zh) in leisure. That sound doesn't exist in standard Italian, spoken without a very strong regional accent. The "g" of grigio may not be quite as heavy and clunnky as the sound usually spoken in "ledger," but that's just because it's a different language.
