nukesafe

Perhaps this topic should be on the United States board, or the Forum, but the subject was brought up on the European Forum in a discussion of French table manners. One of the posters, talking about universal good manners, said that no one should begin eating before Grace was said. St. Cirq responded that the concept of Grace said before meals would be considered really weird in France and in most of the rest of the world.

I agree, and find the practice of saying Grace in the States before a meal an extremely uncomfortable experience. I'm American, but a non-believer, so I just sit silently until the ordeal is over. I, however, refuse to participate in the practice of joining hands around the table while the blessing in given. If nothing else, I feel it rather unsanitary to grab someones hand just before I eat. I know I washed my hands, but ---

In any case, I am fearful of offending my host, but I feel they are making unwarranted assumptions about the feelings/beliefs of their guests.

In any case, what is the experience of our European brethren when subjected to this ritual when eating in an American home?

nytraveler

Well as an American I have never been in a house where people said prayers before dinner. Perhaps there are parts of the county, or particular religious groups, where this is the norm - but it absolutely is not in most of the country.most households.

IMHO prayer is a private thing and belongs in church - not at a dinner party - and should not be imposed on others - who may have different beliefs - in public.

If stuck in a situation where this occurs - all one can do is sit quietly and ignore it. For the hosts to assume you want to participate is inflicting their religious beliefs on their guests - VERY bad form.

And I would assume that most european visitors don;t eat in private american homes - and if they do the saying of prayers is unlikely to occur.

dfourh

everybody just chill

MonicaRichards

We always say grace at large family meals. I think it's not uncommon for a special meal, like maybe an intimate dinner at someone's home to celebrate a birthday for example. And I'm in the liberal SF Bay Area! But in any instance I can think of where there would be grace you'd know the people pretty well. No big deal to just sit there quietly for a minute is it?

adrienne

I've never been to a non-family dinner party where Grace was said. And do not believe it should ever be said outside a family or religious dinner. During family occasions we do say Grace but never hold hands.

StCirq

I think most Europeans would freak at the holding hands and "saying grace" moment if they came to America and were subject to a meal where that was required, but of course they would be polite and do what seemed to be the right thing at the moment (and talk about it nonstop after it was over). Europeans don't traditionally hold hands in the same ways we do - in fact, we hold hands in quite opposite ways to the ones Europeans do, so there would be some very weird cultural assumptions there.

If they are European Jews and it's Friday evening, then of course the shabbat prayer and candlelight prayers are in order.

Dukey1

Not every household which practices the custom of saying a prayer or "grace" before eating does the hand-holding routine.

Are you folks saying this custom ORIGINATED in the United States and did not somehow migrate over to the New World. I find that hard to believe.

And as to the supposed talking about it nonstop, who cares whether they would talk about it or not?

danon

"If they are European Jews......the .shabbat prayer is in order...."

Not all European Jews , like not all American Christians, pray or believe in God.

PatrickLondon

Sitting in silence while grace is said is no more of an ordeal than listening to any other sort of conversation, unless it turns into a two-hour sermon or something. But handholding uninvited would seem to me a bit of an imposition (though I think I would try to resist the impulse to say "Are we going to have a séance?").

But then, my family heritage is CofE, and even those who go in for drying their nails while singing hymns in church tend not to be quite so demonstrative with guests in the home.

nukesafe

Well, I must say that the custom does seem regional in the States, and that I have encountered it at family meals in the central ans southern portions of the country much more than in New York or San Francisco. It still does happen frequently, however.

It gives me problems in that I feel honored to be included in a family gathering, but dread the thought of causing offense by showing the offense I feel at being put through that ritual. When questioned, which happens seldom, I mumble something about that not being my custom. Only twice, thank goodness, have I been challenged by an incredulous, "Have you not been saved?!"

Shudder ~~~~~

flanneruk

Rather more often than once a year, in Britain, I find myself at an industry, livery company or college dinner (or even, occasionally, an annual constituency dinner in a distinctly left-leaning political party) where grace is said. A grace is virtually mandatory at Burns Night suppers.

It may be an elaborate Latin prayer (if the organisation is of ancient foundation), the standard bit of Burns in Lallans or a mumbled appeal to companionship in modern English. It may assume a Catholic interpretation of transubstantiation that would horrify the institution's Protestant fundamentalist founder (I attend no sectarian events) or be carefully drafted to avoid upsetting the most hypersensitive of atheists (for no dogma these days screams more loudly about its right not to be offended than atheism). But most often, the grace assumes a monotheist theology - which no Hindu member has ever been known to object to. Muslim members are usually particularly determined to preserve any Christian wording of institutions' graces. British Jews, in this as in most other issues, are as careful as British Catholics to avoid participating in the debate.

Industry functions in Britain feature graces slightly less often than their equivalents in the US, and are sometimes more likely to have been recently reworded to avoid challenging those poor atheists' delicate sensitivities. Graces are rarer in mainland Europe than in Britain. But there's not a lot in it, and I've certainly sat through graces in Italian and modern Greek - though the industry whose events I most often attend does have exceptionally elderly institutions.

Outside formal events, I've encountered graces in the British Isles over the past 50 years only in Northern Ireland and very remote parts of Scotland. But anyone who claims graces are unheard of in Europe merely demonstrates their tangential relationship with the culture they purport to be expert on.

When I've encountered the custom in American homes, it's always been a similar non-intrusive prayer to the Burns Night introit. I find no difficulty in avoiding any kind of ill-mannered self-assertion: when in Toledo, Ohio...

amer_can

What's this got to do with a travel forum? Also I have never had to hold hands at the dinner table. A bowed head and respectful silence should do in most cases. If grace is said would you be so impolite as to react negatively. If I were asked if I "were saved" I would have to be careful not to say I never needed to be but thank you for your concern!!!

thursdaysd

I grew up in England, and in the late 50s and early 60s I attended a "grammar school", a selective state secondary school of a type that no longer exists. For school lunch we sat at tables of 10 or 12, with a teacher or senior girl (it was an all-girls school) at the head. Grace was said before the meal. (We also had religious assembly every morning, and all that prayer in school turned out a bunch of non-believers.)

I've lived in the southern US for many years, and have encountered both grace and hand-holding at meals, but rarely, and only in private houses. It's not something I would make a fuss about.

Pvoyageuse

I attended a French catholic school and Grace was said before each meal.

bilboburgler

Gosh, you mean do we behave normally and just go along with what the host wants us to do? Oh yes.

The two harder problems I have are
1) When this happens in a restaurant but hey I join in when people sing happy birthday so why not
2) When the host thinks his special wine is great and it is @*&$£ do you just grin through the stuff, have a quiet word with the waiter or what?

downtownbrown

(From a non-believer):
Really? Respectfully bowing your head in silence and (gasp!) holding hands constitute an "ordeal"?

Done it. Survived it. Will probably do it again.

Dukey1

Well, according to another thread if you don't believe in God it makes sense you wouldn't believe in saying grace, either...but with the notable exceptions being made for friends and family you are co-habiting with who actually do.

willit

This happened not in America but in South Africa. We were invited to lunch with my in laws at friends of theirs. I was invited to actually say the grace, and had to politely decline as I am Agnostic.

To say the atmosphere became a little frosty would be a bit of an understatement, and it wasn't the most pleasant of occassions.

Under normal circumstances I have no objection to being respectful and silent during grace, but would probably feel uncomfortable with the hand holding.

mr_go

As a non-believer myself, I find the custom a little squirmy at times, but no great ordeal. Certainly not as great an ordeal as Aunt Barbara's squash casserole.

But it is a bit of a challenge when, as willit mentions, one is asked to lead the table in saying grace. The one time I was asked to do so, I stammered out a spiel reminiscent of Chevy Chase's eulogy for Aunt Edna in "Vacation".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02v0301n0aU

nytraveler

I have many friend who are observant of their faith - a variety of different faiths. But they do no impose their private religious beliefs on their guests - which would be extremely impolite.

(Note; this is not true if you are invited specifically for a religious holiday meal - if you are invited for Passover seder -naturally the usual traditions apply.)