Well as an American I have never been in a house where people said prayers before dinner. Perhaps there are parts of the county, or particular religious groups, where this is the norm - but it absolutely is not in most of the country.most households.

IMHO prayer is a private thing and belongs in church - not at a dinner party - and should not be imposed on others - who may have different beliefs - in public.

If stuck in a situation where this occurs - all one can do is sit quietly and ignore it. For the hosts to assume you want to participate is inflicting their religious beliefs on their guests - VERY bad form.

And I would assume that most european visitors don;t eat in private american homes - and if they do the saying of prayers is unlikely to occur.

everybody just chill

We always say grace at large family meals. I think it's not uncommon for a special meal, like maybe an intimate dinner at someone's home to celebrate a birthday for example. And I'm in the liberal SF Bay Area! But in any instance I can think of where there would be grace you'd know the people pretty well. No big deal to just sit there quietly for a minute is it?

I've never been to a non-family dinner party where Grace was said. And do not believe it should ever be said outside a family or religious dinner. During family occasions we do say Grace but never hold hands.

I think most Europeans would freak at the holding hands and "saying grace" moment if they came to America and were subject to a meal where that was required, but of course they would be polite and do what seemed to be the right thing at the moment (and talk about it nonstop after it was over). Europeans don't traditionally hold hands in the same ways we do - in fact, we hold hands in quite opposite ways to the ones Europeans do, so there would be some very weird cultural assumptions there.

If they are European Jews and it's Friday evening, then of course the shabbat prayer and candlelight prayers are in order.

Not every household which practices the custom of saying a prayer or "grace" before eating does the hand-holding routine.

Are you folks saying this custom ORIGINATED in the United States and did not somehow migrate over to the New World. I find that hard to believe.

And as to the supposed talking about it nonstop, who cares whether they would talk about it or not?

"If they are European Jews......the .shabbat prayer is in order...."

Not all European Jews , like not all American Christians, pray or believe in God.

Sitting in silence while grace is said is no more of an ordeal than listening to any other sort of conversation, unless it turns into a two-hour sermon or something. But handholding uninvited would seem to me a bit of an imposition (though I think I would try to resist the impulse to say "Are we going to have a séance?").

But then, my family heritage is CofE, and even those who go in for drying their nails while singing hymns in church tend not to be quite so demonstrative with guests in the home.

Well, I must say that the custom does seem regional in the States, and that I have encountered it at family meals in the central ans southern portions of the country much more than in New York or San Francisco. It still does happen frequently, however.

It gives me problems in that I feel honored to be included in a family gathering, but dread the thought of causing offense by showing the offense I feel at being put through that ritual. When questioned, which happens seldom, I mumble something about that not being my custom. Only twice, thank goodness, have I been challenged by an incredulous, "Have you not been saved?!"

Shudder ~~~~~

Rather more often than once a year, in Britain, I find myself at an industry, livery company or college dinner (or even, occasionally, an annual constituency dinner in a distinctly left-leaning political party) where grace is said. A grace is virtually mandatory at Burns Night suppers.

It may be an elaborate Latin prayer (if the organisation is of ancient foundation), the standard bit of Burns in Lallans or a mumbled appeal to companionship in modern English. It may assume a Catholic interpretation of transubstantiation that would horrify the institution's Protestant fundamentalist founder (I attend no sectarian events) or be carefully drafted to avoid upsetting the most hypersensitive of atheists (for no dogma these days screams more loudly about its right not to be offended than atheism). But most often, the grace assumes a monotheist theology - which no Hindu member has ever been known to object to. Muslim members are usually particularly determined to preserve any Christian wording of institutions' graces. British Jews, in this as in most other issues, are as careful as British Catholics to avoid participating in the debate.

Industry functions in Britain feature graces slightly less often than their equivalents in the US, and are sometimes more likely to have been recently reworded to avoid challenging those poor atheists' delicate sensitivities. Graces are rarer in mainland Europe than in Britain. But there's not a lot in it, and I've certainly sat through graces in Italian and modern Greek - though the industry whose events I most often attend does have exceptionally elderly institutions.

Outside formal events, I've encountered graces in the British Isles over the past 50 years only in Northern Ireland and very remote parts of Scotland. But anyone who claims graces are unheard of in Europe merely demonstrates their tangential relationship with the culture they purport to be expert on.

When I've encountered the custom in American homes, it's always been a similar non-intrusive prayer to the Burns Night introit. I find no difficulty in avoiding any kind of ill-mannered self-assertion: when in Toledo, Ohio...

What's this got to do with a travel forum? Also I have never had to hold hands at the dinner table. A bowed head and respectful silence should do in most cases. If grace is said would you be so impolite as to react negatively. If I were asked if I "were saved" I would have to be careful not to say I never needed to be but thank you for your concern!!!

I grew up in England, and in the late 50s and early 60s I attended a "grammar school", a selective state secondary school of a type that no longer exists. For school lunch we sat at tables of 10 or 12, with a teacher or senior girl (it was an all-girls school) at the head. Grace was said before the meal. (We also had religious assembly every morning, and all that prayer in school turned out a bunch of non-believers.)

I've lived in the southern US for many years, and have encountered both grace and hand-holding at meals, but rarely, and only in private houses. It's not something I would make a fuss about.

I attended a French catholic school and Grace was said before each meal.

Gosh, you mean do we behave normally and just go along with what the host wants us to do? Oh yes.

The two harder problems I have are
1) When this happens in a restaurant but hey I join in when people sing happy birthday so why not
2) When the host thinks his special wine is great and it is @*&$£ do you just grin through the stuff, have a quiet word with the waiter or what?

(From a non-believer):
Really? Respectfully bowing your head in silence and (gasp!) holding hands constitute an "ordeal"?

Done it. Survived it. Will probably do it again.

Well, according to another thread if you don't believe in God it makes sense you wouldn't believe in saying grace, either...but with the notable exceptions being made for friends and family you are co-habiting with who actually do.

This happened not in America but in South Africa. We were invited to lunch with my in laws at friends of theirs. I was invited to actually say the grace, and had to politely decline as I am Agnostic.

To say the atmosphere became a little frosty would be a bit of an understatement, and it wasn't the most pleasant of occassions.

Under normal circumstances I have no objection to being respectful and silent during grace, but would probably feel uncomfortable with the hand holding.

As a non-believer myself, I find the custom a little squirmy at times, but no great ordeal. Certainly not as great an ordeal as Aunt Barbara's squash casserole.

But it is a bit of a challenge when, as willit mentions, one is asked to lead the table in saying grace. The one time I was asked to do so, I stammered out a spiel reminiscent of Chevy Chase's eulogy for Aunt Edna in "Vacation".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02v0301n0aU

I have many friend who are observant of their faith - a variety of different faiths. But they do no impose their private religious beliefs on their guests - which would be extremely impolite.

(Note; this is not true if you are invited specifically for a religious holiday meal - if you are invited for Passover seder -naturally the usual traditions apply.)

nytraveler - I think you're leading a sheltered life up there in NY.

As a non-believer I would be unhappy if asked to say grace, but I would simply adapt the one used when I was at school: "For what we are about to receive may we be truly thankful", rather than "may the Lord make us truly thankful". Pretty simple. However, I might then initiate a - hopefully polite - discussion about the custom.

I don't like holding hands with others, period, so that would bother me. And I don't know why a guest would be asked to say the grace.

But the idea that folks would be freaked out by someone saying grace is an overreaction.

Whenever I've been at meals in the U.S. (I'm English) where grace has been said and hands held (or not, depending on the hosts), I've always just bowed my head and listened to the prayer, whilst doing a dummy run in my head of which dishes to attack and in what order, once it's over.

I've always thought is was a question of respect, much like the national anthem being played before sporting events. It might not be my anthem, but I'm certainly going to stand up and stay silent whilst it plays.

I was once berated at an Eagle Scout ceremony for not putting my hand on my heart whilst allegiance was pledged to the flag, and I just responded by saying that although I was happy to be visiting, I wouldn't be 'holding' my heart as it wouldn't seem right.

The same goes for Sikh weddings I've been to. It might not be my faith, but I'll cover my head and participate in the elements I can (and have been invited to) participate in.

Benedictus Benedicat

Short and sweet and thankfully incomprehensible to the majority

funny forum! an american posts a question for europeans and mostly americans are answering it (and a few britons).

well, i am from the european continent and try to find an answer.

firstly, i did not understand the question until one poster described the ceremony.

secondly, i experienced the ritual in about 20% of the american households where i have been invited for dinner but in less than 1% of european households.

thirdly, we europeans are used to travel to other countries with exotic habits. if we travel, say, to kenya and the natives serve us a bowl of warm blood, we think "do no offend your host!" and we drink it and vomit later as discretely as possible. and we understand that there is a scientific ethnological explanation for this behaviour.

so, when we first experienced the ritual that you call "saying grace" in the U.S. we observed our hosts and tried to imitate their movements as accurately as possible. after we had diagnosed that it had been part of a religious ceremony we cleaned ourselves after dinner by drawing a reversed pentagram.

naturally, we analyzed the american habit of "saying grace" scientifically. here in europe, no one would thank god for providing food. since we have agricultural overproduction in the european union, we would thank god for giving us new sophisticated ways of destroying food. here in europe, people thank god only for letting their local football team win (the priest of maranello for letting ferrari win a formula one race).

the americans are "saying grace" and celebrating thanksgiving because the pilgrim fathers almost starved and were so grateful that their first harvest turned out successful so that a tradition originated.

strangely, flanneruk wrote that the britons have the same ceremony. however, given the desastrous state of british economy, it is understandable that britons thank god for providing them with spam, weetabix and marmite. most probably this habit will vanish, when uk joins the euro zone, which will happen, as i have been told by the british prime minister, soon.

(sorry for not using caps, but i have a broken hand)

"after we had diagnosed that it had been part of a religious ceremony we cleaned ourselves after dinner by drawing a reversed pentagram."

That's funny

"when uk joins the euro zone, which will happen, as i have been told by the british prime minister, soon."

Yeah right.

Oh, bilboburger, a Dark Blue or a Light Blue?

We say grace at my house, whether alone or with family or with friends.

Since ladies and gentlemen do not discuss religion, I have no knowledge of my guests' beliefs. When it is a general gathering, I use a non denominational grace and trust that those who are not believers will have the good manners simply to remain silent. So far, I have not been disappointed.

We do not say grace, and frankly, the whole hand-holding thing gives me the creeps. Yes, I would simply stay silent. I would not however bow my head - what on earth for? And if asked to SAY grace, I'd have to politely decline, as I wouldn't have a clue what to say.

And I loved traveller1959's entire post - thank you!

God bless our meat, God guide our ways
God give us Grace, our Lord to please.
Lord long preserve in peace and health
Our Gracious Queen, Elizabeth.

George Bellin, c 1565.

Somehow, I can't see Americans saying that one!

And yes, traveller1959's post was stellar.

We do say grace before dinner, a brief event where we give thanks and remember those we know are dealing with things such as illness, family issues, finances. If someone is a guest in our home and we know how they feel about it, we say grace. If unsure, we don't. DH and I used to hold hands, but not when we had guests. And these prayers were very short. 15-20 seconds.
This may be more prevalent in certain regions, but everywhere we've lived we have encountered it, even when we were not doing it ourselves.

Sorry - it's true that Thanksgiving is a remembrance of the survival of the Pilgrims through the first winter (when so many died) and the survival and reaping of the first harvest (with the help of the local native americans).

That is a national holiday.

Saying grace at meals has nothing to do with that tradition.

It's simply a habit of some religious groups - and I suspect to a very different extent among different religions and in different parts of the country.

I have never seen it - except at specific meals related to religious events (Passover seders) but I suspect that it's more common among fundamentalist protestant groups. (I grew up in an area that was primarily jewish and catholic and the few protestants were episcopalians and lutherans - and never saw it in those homes either. But there may also be regional differences.

And by the way Canadians have Thanksgiving too - earlier than in the US naturally due to the colder climate and earlier harvests - but not for exactly the same reasons.

<<What's this got to do with a travel forum? >>

If cross-cultural customs aren't an appropriate topic for a lounge forum on a travel site, what would be?

Most families that I know don't hold hands while saying grace unless it's a special dinner (Easter, Christmas, etc.). I have a couple of friends that say grace at restaurants, but they just bow their heads and say a silent prayer (just a few seconds). We go out to eat regularly and they don't expect the rest of us to participate at all.

Currently, Bavarians will be saying Grace (in a slightly different manner):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/19/arsenal-bayern-munich-live-mbm-report

We never say grace except when my uncle, a retired Episcopalian priest is present. He just mutters a quick thanks.

As a boy I was friends with a reasonably devout Catholic family -- the mother died rather than abort her seventh child -- their grace was short and simple:

"In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost
Whoever eats the fastest gets the most!"

I am a Christian but mostly our praying is in church or at our own table. Yes, I've seen families hold hands in restaurants and bow their heads for a prayer. And we choose not to. Guess a silent prayer is OK. Act of praying often is prompted by having children.

By the way, let's define the term "saying grace"...what it means is a prayer of thanks for food, life, loved ones, the moment. I would hope except for the non-believers many of us might just breathe "thank you God, for life" once in awhile.

amer_can...yes, this is a topic which should be in Forum.
StCirq...yeah, that holding hands is something else.
MonicaRichards...I think for special family gatherings many of us "say grace."

When I was growing up, my pastor's favorite before-meal-grace was "Good food, good meat, good God, let's eat! "
Ms. IJ

A lot of generalizations going on here , 1959 , I seriously doubt most Europeons would drink the blood and vomit discreetly later, can assure my relatives wouldn't, lol

And just to clarify.. we (Canadians) have Thanksgiving earlier then Americans cause we are sensible enough to space our big pig out meals.. a nice big turkey dinner in October , and then you are ready for another one by Dec 25th, lol You guys have your holidays too close together!!!

Ackislander Dark.

as an atheist lawyer I've had to endure many a grace preceding a meal, and have lived to tell the tale. I'm also in a choir which sings mainly religious works in a cathedral and I cope with that too, but I do find the prayer which precedes the performance more difficult to swallow. [given it is in fact a concert which just happens to be taking place in a consecrated building simply because it's the best venue in the area].

I've never been invited to a meal in someone's house where grace is said, but should any of you be kind enough to invite me, i dare say I'd cope with that too.

you probably wouldn't even notice.

>>IMHO prayer is a private thing and belongs in church - not at a dinner party - and should not be imposed on others - who may have different beliefs - in public.<<

If I host a dinner in my home, it's not a public gathering.

We always pray before a meal - in public as well as at home. If we have guests who don't share our faith, we give them a heads up before we pray so they aren't surprised, and they can choose whether or not to participate. In public, if we're with a mixed group of folks, like at a GTG, I pray silently; if I'm with people from my church, one of us will pray aloud for the whole group.

Lee Ann

annhig, if you are in Minnesota, I'll cook. My Brit born son in law would love to have someone he can understand.
My family always says grace, those who want to pray, pray, those that don't, don't. I really think that silence and respectfullness is all that is required to be polite.

Catholic Christians say grace before a meal and you can participate or sit quietly but do not eat before it is over or you are considered rude.

Let's turn this around. So, it's rude for a non-believer not to sit quietly through grace. Looks like those posting here are in general fine with that. How about the believers not saying grace when they know they are around non-believers? Outside of their own homes I certainly think it's rude (at least) to do so, and I could make a case for it to be rude IN their homes - it's rude to knowingly make your guests uncomfortable.

I guess I don't understand why listening to someone pray for about 30-60 seconds is such an "ordeal," or something which must be "endured?"

Why does it make you uncomfortable?

How would you feel if your host decided to conduct a Wiccan ritual before the meal?

Well, I think good manners trumps religious convictions in this discrete example.

If I was at someone's home and they said a 60 second Wiccan prayer I would bow my head and pray...to God. I would not call it an 'ordeal' or tell people what I had to 'endure.'

While I might find it strange, I just wouldn't think of it in those terms.

"How would you feel if your host decided to conduct a Wiccan ritual before the meal?"

How long is that going to take?

I say grace before I eat, it's a silent moment of acknowledgement. When people are in my home they can participate or not.

Whenever I eat at someone else's home, I wait for them to start so it's their dinner. If they are going to pray I'm glad I waited.

I rarely drink alcohol. What's the difference between a prayer and a toast? They are both gestures meant for love.

If someone makes a toast, I hold up whatever is in my glass.
If someone offers a prayer hold up whatever is in your heart.

Some people sure seem to exagerate how awful it would be to simply delay eating for 30-60 seconds,, eating disorders ( gluttony??)

I have no problem delaying for a period of time while my host does whatever the heck they want, if by delaying my self gratifcation for a minute is going to be polite.

"How would you feel if your host decided to conduct a Wiccan ritual before the meal?"

Depends whether I have to take my clothes off.

30-60 seconds for grace? Do they take a collection as well?

I've never known it to take more than 10 seconds in my CofE family, or even when they did formal Latin grace at my Cambridge college. Anything more than that would be considered excessive, and there might be mutterings about whited sepulchres; but when you're a guest in someone's house you respect their ways.

>>I was invited to actually say the grace, and had to politely decline as I am Agnostic. <<

Esprit d'escalier, perhaps, but there's nothing dishonest about a gentle modification of the conventional to "For what we are about to receive, let us be truly thankful." Accepts the honour they think they are doing you, preserves the communality, makes no pretence at false belief.

annhig, if you are in Minnesota, I'll cook. My Brit born son in law would love to have someone he can understand.>>

ziggypop, you're on.

BTW, what do you like to eat in Minnesota?

"Catholic Christians say grace before a meal and you can participate or sit quietly but do not eat before it is over or you are considered rude."

Some do.

It's now close to 50 years since I last encountered the practice in a Catholic home. Even when joined by seminarian members of the flannerclan, we never revived the practice.

Patrick, BTW, clearly went to an exceptionally laconic college. At my alma mater, the fastest-speaking scholar of the day managed the Grace in a record 23 secs, but got sconced for being unintelligible.

"Sconcing", I thought that was defenestrated in the 50s except for the very small colleges though mine seems to have brought back the "loving cup" in 2002. Since none of the medical doctors would touch the thing I've avoided it

"Why does it make you uncomfortable?"

Why is not important. The fact is that it does make people uncomfortable - just reread this thread.

Saying grace may make your guests uncomfortable.
It is rude to make your guests uncomfortable.
Therefore, you should not say grace unless all your guests are known to be members of your particular religion (and maybe not even then, depending on the religion.)

And if you don't think there's any difference berween making a toast and saying grace it should certainly not be a problem to omit grace. What a silly analogy.

i would be surprised, if not discomforted, if I was invited to someone's house for a meal in the UK and discovered that they said grace before we ate.

IME it simply doesn't happen here. [or indeed in any of the houses I've been invited to eat in all over Europe] [does anyone know if they do it at Buck House?]

I recognise that in the US it in not uncommon and applying the "when in Rome" philosophy, i hope that I would behave appropriately.

Where I do draw the line is when we are performing in the local cathedral, which for these purposes is no different to a theatre or concert hall, and prayers are said before we start. you might say that we are performing religious works, so it's appropriate. However, next month we are going to be performing a secular requiem which is avowedly NOT Christian or religious, except perhaps in the widest sense.

I wait with interest to see if we have a prayer imposed on us then.

BTW, as [as I suppose] grace is said to thank God for food, drink etc. why is saying it limited to meals? why not when you have a glass of wine, or water? or when you eat an apple. Or for that matter when you get up in the morning and see that the sun has risen?

How do Europeans handle the saying of Grace at the American table?>>

With grace, hopefully.

"Saying grace may make your guests uncomfortable.
It is rude to make your guests uncomfortable."

What is the big deal? All of this protest just strikes me that some people are a little too controlling.

While I prefer a moment of silence, if someone wants a spoken prayer that's fine. It takes 10-15 seconds. In that time one can take a nice calming breath and celebrate that others want to eat with you.

I have a group of friends who feel uncomfortable if we don't stop to have a little prayer before eating. We are from different religions. We hold hands and have a silence.

So, if for some reason you have part of this group over, are you going to make them feel uncomfortable?

Thursdaysd, when in Rome .... When you are a guest you have equal responsiblity to be a gracious guest.. you don't say "ew" if served a dish you don't like either...
When invited into someones home,, or similar,when you visit someones country , then you should accept there may be some different customs and do your best as a guest to respect them..
No one is asking the guest to do anything more then sit quietly for 30 seconds,, once again I ask, is that really so hard to do? We can all stand on our principles, but a smart person trys to weigh when its worth it.
Most of us agree grace is not too invasive, you are not expected to say Grace, you are not expected to join their religion, you simply are waiting an extra few seconds while your host may say a few words..
If asked to say Grace then I think its absolutely fine to say "no thanks",, just like if you are passed a regional /national dish you don't want to try ( jellied eels anyone, lol )

"All of this protest just strikes me that some people are a little too controlling."

So, it's "controlling" to want to eat without a religious ritual beforehand, but not controlling to insist on having said ritual?

justineparis - it appears you haven't read my earlier comments, in which I said quite clearly that I would indeed sit quietly if my hosts said grace, and even offered a non-religious version of grace for use if needed. I am merely pointing out that while it is incumbent on both sides to be polite, the onus is on the host as much if not more than the guest.

"So, it's "controlling" to want to eat without a religious ritual beforehand, but not controlling to insist on having said ritual?"

I am not a Christian, but I live in a part of the country where this "ritual" is very common. I often suspect people do it when they have guests specifically to display their faithfulness. That said, if I'm a host, I serve what I serve, play the music I wish to play, and observe the rituals that I believe are important. If you are my invited guest, and don't care for any of the above, then I suppose you wouldn't accept my next invitation.

Actually the onus is on the guest to accept that when they are a guest in someones home, or country , they are the ones who must compromise...A host should not knowingly make a guest uncomfortable, but I think we can agree that a short few words wouldn't make most people uncomfortable.. and if you are dining in someones home you are usually a friend, not a stranger off the street , so would usually have a clue if our friends are observing Christains, or if our guests are very anti Christain ritual.

marciakaz, in many parts of your country and certainly in my country, most people have no desire to "display their faithfullness" unless they actually have a faith. Perhaps in the "Bible Belt" areas this may be true, where its socially more acceptable to disply Christian faith, but in many areas it seems polictically incorrect to be Christain.

Its almost like some people who claim to be agnostic or atheist would have no problem sitting through a wiccan ritual, or Buddish pray chant, but find the idea of sitting through a Christain prayer alot harder to stomach..

Its almost like some people who claim to be agnostic or atheist would have no problem sitting through a wiccan ritual, or Buddish pray chant, but find the idea of sitting through a Christain prayer alot harder to stomach..>>

justineparis, I can assure you that I have exactly the same feelings about all religions, and that I am completely non-discriminatory in that respect.

My college roommate's father was a rabbi. When I shared a Shabbos meal with them I participated as fully as I could in my ignorance and kept silent otherwise. I got invited back, so it must have been okay. He certainly blessed food before meals or asked that it be blessed by g-d.

I'm not controlling anyone, they can eat if they want while I take a moment. I imagine most people feel this way.

I was taught to wait until everyone is seated before I begin eating. It's only polite not to dig in before the host is seated. Otherwise one looks as though they are only there for the meal and not the company. Anyone at my table is free to do whatever they want within reason.

If it means so much to you not to participate. The prayer is over in moments. It's not a big deal.

"defenestrated in the 50s except for the very small colleges "

Bilbo's Law: the smaller the college, the longer the Grace?

"Where I do draw the line is when we are performing in the local cathedral, which for these purposes is no different to a theatre or concert hall, and prayers are said before we start. you might say that we are performing religious works, so it's appropriate."

This must be some Cornish weirdism.

In real England, Anglican churches are regularly used for concerts (and discussion groups, and talks, and God knows what else). They've usually got dynamite acoustics, need the revenue and have been community centres for all kinds of non-religious purposes, under both sets of owners, for most of their thousand years.

I don't think I've ever heard a prayer said in one of them except as part of a properly advertised service (which a concert performance of a Mozart Mass absolutely doesn't count as).

Most of our PCC would regard unnecessary praying in church as downright heretical. Almost as bad as praying in the dining room at home.

Or as one of our local wannabne squires put it "the family that prays together would be a lot happier somewhere else"

....I don't think I've ever heard a prayer said in one of them except as part of a properly advertised service (which a concert performance of a Mozart Mass absolutely doesn't count as)....

Unless, it has changed recently, all concerts in Chester Cathedral are preceded by a prayer. I must say that I disapprove. I've been to several concerts in churches and it's the only place I have met it.

"Its almost like some people who claim to be agnostic or atheist would have no problem sitting through a wiccan ritual, or Buddish pray chant, but find the idea of sitting through a Christain prayer alot harder to stomach.."

For some folks, expressing disdain for Christians or Christianity is how you demonstrate how cool and sophisticated you are.

Funny how it doesn't translate to certain other religions.

"but I think we can agree that a short few words wouldn't make most people uncomfortable"

Have you bothered to read the other posts on this thread? It is quite clear that it DOES make people uncomfortable.

As a child, I was taught that the polite thing was to go with the flow when in other people's homes. At the dinner table, watch what others are doing and follow suit. Don't start eating until others have started. If the hosts hold hands and say grace, then hold hands and be silent and respectful. Yes, holding hands might be a little strange right before eating, but trust in your immune system and go for it. It won't be the first time that day you have ingested some sort of germ. I've never seen this as a big deal - and I am a very non-religious person.

Clearly, it makes you uncomfortable. Perhaps you're best course of action is, when you are invited to dinner at someone's home, ask them about grace.

That way both of you will know and all will be spared an uncomfortable evening.

If a small prayer makes a person uncomfortable, I'm sure everyone will soon hear the litany of all else that makes them uncomfortable.

In American homes, are antiseptic wipes used before or after prayers are said and hands held?

For some folks, expressing disdain for Christians or Christianity is how you demonstrate how cool and sophisticated you are.

Funny how it doesn't translate to certain other religions.>>

read what I said upthread, bitter. who is saying this, except some of those, who like you, favour the Christian religion? none of us atheists or agnostics, certainly. I wonder why it is so hard for you to respect my lack of belief whilst you expect me to respect your faith?

I should add, flanner, that it looks as if Cornish "weirdness" has spread to Chester.

isn't it funny [if that's the right word] that in a country that has a separation of state and religion enshrined in its constitution, religion is still such a large part of everyday life for so many, whereas in the UK, which has a state religion, it's a very peripheral part?

discuss.

No Chartley, antiseptic wipes are usually not used before meals.

In American homes EVERYONE washes their hands immediately before dinner. Unfortunately, you cannot check on the accuracy of this statement, as the ULTIMATE AUTHORITY on the subject, my Mother, is now dead.

"in the UK, which has a state religion, it's a very peripheral part. Discuss"

Don't get me started. But now you have...

Our national conceit is that religion knows its place (peripheral to most, central to some) and we don't hold with hypocritical nonsense like a Constitution (a preposterous device for eliminating democracy America shares with Communist Russia and Nazi Germany)

So we don't (outside the lunatic fringe of BBC "Have your say" web feedback) go into hysterics at the thought of our Head of State being nominal Governor of a Christian denomination, or of most of our national institutions (from St Stephen's and Holyrood Palaces, through most Oxbridge colleges and major public schools to St Thomas' hospital and our legal Terms) being essentially Christian (worse: Catholic) inventions. Or your (probably 90% irreligious) choir regarding Truro (is that right?) Cathedral as their home venue.

The non-nutters among us (including the overwhelming majority of Muslims, Jews, Hindus and even Dawkinsesque agnostics) regard our Christian heritage as part of the national backcloth, are a great deal happier we celebrate Christmas than The Holidays and get bloody pissed off when the BBC insists on pretending Julius Caesar invaded in 55 BCE, or that William invaded in 1066 CE.

Because no-one (least of all the faithful in the pews) thinks it matters very much, we really don't get upset if our annual beanfeast with colleagues starts with a Grace we don't believe in. And, by and large, most of us at Mass or Eucharist on Sundays don't indulge in this "Christians are persecuted here in a way others aren't" nonsense.

Such fatuous self-indulgence demeans the real persecutions Christians suffer elsewhere.

and Amen to that.

Just because someone "said" you shouldn't eat before saying grace doesn't mean it's going to happen. What's the worry. Get over it.
And while we don't, many in our family do. It really doesn't hurt.

"In American homes, are antiseptic wipes used before or after prayers are said and hands held?"

No, but Americans don't have cooties, so it doesn't matter.

Annhig: Huh? My point is not necessarily aimed at you, though perhaps you see yourself in my comments. I don't know.

What I do know is that making fun of Christians and/or Christianity is a thing that folks do to be part of the in crowd. It's like guffawing for the hundredth time at a trite GWB joke. It shows that you (proverbial) are in on the joke and one of the cool "liberal" kids.

"What I do know is that making fun of Christians and/or Christianity is a thing that folks do to be part of the in crowd. "

Speak for your own friends and acquaintances. I certainly don't know anyone who behaves like that.

Annhig: Huh? My point is not necessarily aimed at you, though perhaps you see yourself in my comments. I don't know. >>

If you read my posts, you would clearly see that I did not see myself in your comments, which are not applicable to anyone here.

<<What I do know is that making fun of Christians and/or Christianity is a thing that folks do to be part of the in crowd.>>

do you have any evidence for this please?

"Speak for your own friends and acquaintances. I certainly don't know anyone who behaves like that"

Really? How much thought have you given that?
If you are from the US, then you know that disdain for Christians is widely accepted in our culture. And, if you've thought about it, know that if the same attitudes were exhibited against other religions, the attitudes or persons would be vilified as bigotry or bigots. Did you every ask yourself why those criticizing Christianity get a pass?

And did you ever ask yourself why folks here profess that they would be uncomfortable or worse to have to sit through a prayer?

Think about it. If I don't share your religion, am ambivalent, or even find it a bit silly, why would I experience discomfort? Answer: I wouldn't. A reasonable person would be a bit bored or confused at worse, or mildly curious, but that's about it.

I not only live in the US (although I grew up in the UK), I live in the Bible Belt (NC), and no, disdain for Christianity is definitely not widely prevalent nor widely accepted in the US. What is widely prevalent in the US is an entitled attitude among Christians, amply demonstrated here.

Anyone who finds it "offensive" to hear someone say a prayer to God before a meal - out loud and in their presence! - really needs to have their head examined.

Now that is a truly narrow minded comment, Holly. There are many who truly do not believe in a supreme being, and consider praying, silently or aloud, to be foolish. They feel uncomfortable, feeling embarrassed for their friends, whom they had considered adult thinking persons, behaving in such an irrational way.

Your comment is about as narrow minded as it gets, nukesafe.

"They feel uncomfortable, feeling embarrassed for their friends, whom they had considered adult thinking persons, behaving in such an irrational way."

That isn't embarrassment you are feeling. It is condescension.

"There are many who truly do not believe in a supreme being, and consider praying, silently or aloud, to be foolish. They feel uncomfortable, feeling embarrassed for their friends, whom they had considered adult thinking persons, behaving in such an irrational way."

There are many things people do that are irrational. I think considering a pet the same as a child is irrational but I don't protest if someone believes this. I like my friends and family and think it's best to let them have their thing.

I have a feeling some folks just don't like other people much so they have all these little hoops for them to jump through. That seems silly to me but it's their life.

Anyway, what I was taught was that it's rude to start eating before everyone's served with the food in front of them. Those in my family who say grace (no handholding, where on earth did that come from?) quite often do so before dishing up is complete (which is another reason why they don't hang about emoting about it, they don't want the sprouts to get cold).

>>Patrick, BTW, clearly went to an exceptionally laconic college.<<

King's. It nods to the past, but somewhat briskly, on occasion. I think it was rarely more (and then only on special occasions) than Benedictus benedicat, per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.

But I do see on a quick Google that some showier places make a rather more papistical performance out of it. Those Fenland draughts tend to encourage rather more dispatch.

"Think about it. If I don't share your religion, am ambivalent, or even find it a bit silly, why would I experience discomfort? Answer: I wouldn't. A reasonable person would be a bit bored or confused at worse, or mildly curious, but that's about it."

To answer your question Bitter, from my perspective at least - it isn't the prayer itself that leads to the discomfort. It is the can of worms that the prayer could open that does it -that is what puts non-religious people on edge. Religion can be an extremely touchy subject.

In my experience, there are a fair number of Christians who just can't or won't leave people alone to believe or not as they so choose. Conversion and being saved is part of the religion, so I guess it comes with the territory. I have lost friends over religion because they just could not accept that no, I am not a Christian and their repeated attempts to save me are not only futile, but after awhile, insulting. I've just had to distance myself from certain people. Then there are the less-dramatic situations, which play out over and over again - religion comes up, the non-Christians are "outed" and there is an issue. It gets tiresome, and in social situations, sometimes you just never know how it is going to go. A nice dinner can turn extremely uncomfortable very quickly.

Like I said in a previous post, I was taught to just go with the flow, and if people want to pray before dinner, I am totally good with that. But - I understand how this makes some non-Christians very uncomfortable because of the judgement that can come along after the prayer when religion becomes the topic of discussion at the dinner table. I try to take the straightforward, diplomatic approach when things start to get uncomfortable. It usually works, but not always - and sometimes I am not in the mood for diplomacy and against my better judgement, end up in a religious debate at the dinner table, which may or may be preferable to the debate over gun control that I let myself get dragged into at the previous dinner.

nm: You're talking about proselytising and religious debate at the dinner table. We were talking about the simple act of saying grace. Big diff.

"In my experience, there are a fair number of Christians who just can't or won't leave people alone to believe or not as they so choose."

In my experience, that comes in all flavors; atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, pet lovers, football fans and other zealots. Some people are just obnoxious.
It’s easy to solve this. Be who you are but don’t be obnoxious.

Good post, november_moon. I agree, part of the discomfort is the feeling that one has inadvertently strayed into potentially hostile territory. Another part is annoyance that the host is assuming that everyone present is a Christian, and their kind of Christian at that.

Holly - the problem is that people who make a habit of saying grace regardless of who is present are very likely to turn out to believe that they have a duty of some kind to convert the once-born.

LSky - I have yet to run into non-Christians who are filled with the kind of missionary zeal that is regrettably common among certain Christian sects. Aside from some Muslims, at least. Neither Buddhists nor Hindus (you are supposed to be born into that faith, as are Jews), make a habit of pursuing converts.

I would add that there is a big difference between the situations flanner and Patrick are talking about - a fair-sized public gathering where an ancient foundation is continuing a ritual in place for hundreds of years - and a dinner party in a private house, where the host is practicing her faith without consideration for the other people there.

". . . are very likely to turn out to believe that they have a duty of some kind to convert . . ."

In all my years of saying and hearing many graces, I have never run into this. Ever. Again, you're talking about proselytising. I'm talking about simply saying grace.

And as far as accusing a host of being inconsiderate for saying grace when there might be some atheists present, I think it's awfully inconsiderate for the atheists to expect a host to basically give up her custom (in her own home!) just so they don't have to hear it.

Thursday guess you haven't met any Jehovahs or Mormans at your door then, lucky you.. btw , they are not considered Christians by most Christains.. but sure you can't see the difference.
I also wonder how many Muslims you have really had a chance to run into.. two, maybe three.. a family ..


"Holly the problem is that people who make a habit of sayng grace regardless of whoever is present are very likely to turn out to beleive that they have a duty of some kind to convert the once born"

WOW, do you make stuff up as you go along?... I have been in many situations where grace was said and then it was "pass the peas" , not conversion talk. Honestly , perhaps you seem to have some pretty narrow views of who saids grace, only born again Christains trying to convert their innocent dinner guests.. geesh. Chip on your shoulder from a bad experience ???
Seems its not just some Christians that are "narrow minded".

How DARE a host practice her faith in her own home, perhaps she should draw the curtains for her secret prayer group meetings too, don't want to offend anyone who may wander by...

Give me a break a host may do whatever they like in their home, the guest can LEAVE if the issue is that upsetting.
Anyone who leaves because a short grace prayer is said is certainly not a friend ,but if they do end up being preached at then I AGREE that is going over the line and they could reasonably leave and not be in the wrong .

@justineparis:
"I also wonder how many Muslims you have really had a chance to run into.. two, maybe three.. a family .. "

I have a Muslim former step-son. I have a Muslim former step-son-in-law. I have visited in Muslim homes. I have attended services in a mosque. I have traveled in a number of Muslim countries. The ONLY time anyone has tried to convert me was when I encountered a couple of self-described Muslim missionaries in north-eastern Malaysia, and they didn't try very hard even though they bought me breakfast.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your diatribe.

thursday, on the subject of grace at dinner in someone’s home: “ . . part of the discomfort is the feeling that one has inadvertently strayed into potentially hostile territory . . .”

And yet you have chosen to enter houses of worship to attend religious services. It just doesn’t compute.

"And yet you have chosen to enter houses of worship to attend religious services. It just doesn’t compute."

It doesn't compute because this isn't about religion or prayer, it is the posters' faux yet strangely fashionable discomfort with CHRISTIAN religion/prayer.

@Bitter - your paranoia is showing. I have on occasion CHOSEN to attend Christian services as well. Note that word? CHOSEN - and note "inadvertently" in my earlier post. I CHOOSE the locations with some care - I haven't forgotten the funeral service I attended for the mother-in-law of a former step-daughter at which the Southern Baptist preacher spent most of his sermon trying to convert the congregation instead of eulogizing the departed. "I know our dear sister is in heaven, but I'm very worried about the rest of you", or words to that effect. None of his **** business.

Oh, great. Now you're going to tell us how a Southern Baptist preacher should give a funeral sermon?

paranoia? Maybe. Next thing you know I'll be professing that a pre-meal prayer is an ordeal, and that someone professing their faith is a form of dangerous indoctrination.

Holly - There lies the issue - we should be talking about simple grace said at the table, and in most cases, that is exactly what it is. However, in some cases, grace isn't just grace - it is the begining of something more. And it isn't always overt prothletizing, sometimes it is a much more subtile form of judgement - sometimes just a cooling of the room - after grace, someone asks what church you go to and when you say that you do not attend church or are not a Christian, you get a response such as "Oh, isn't that interesting" followed by pointed looks and silence. That is when you know that as a non-Christian, you are not accepted there. You never really know how it is going to go.

My point was this uncertainty is what makes some non-regligious people uncomfortable with the practice in general. My only goal with my post was to try to explain why some non-Christians are uncomfortable with grace at the table. You can take the explanation for what it is or not. You don't have to agree or anything. It just seemed to me that some may be misinterperating the discomfort with saying grave as an anti-christian view. I wanted to throw out a possible explanation from the perspective of a non-Christian living in a predominantly Christian country.

LSKY - Of course obnoxious people come in all denominations. No one said otherwise - although I have never met a Hindu who tried to convert other people. Anyway, this conversation is specifically about saying grace at the table and how people who don't say grace handle it when in that situation. There seemed to be some misconceptions about the motivations and opinions of those who are uncomfortable with saying grace - a belief that if they are uncomfortable, that must be a sign of being anti-Christian. I simply wanted to provide a possible explanation for those who were interested in understanding where others are coming from.

"I have yet to run into non-Christians who are filled with the kind of missionary zeal that is regrettably common among certain Christian sects."

It's always difficult to look at ourselves.

Nov, "There seemed to be some misconceptions about the motivations and opinions of those who are uncomfortable with saying grace - a belief that if they are uncomfortable, that must be a sign of being anti-Christian."

That doesn't seem to be the point at all. Most people are uncomfortable being dictated to in their own home because someone decides to play the guest card. I'm the guest so you must do whatever makes me comfortable. Even though it's been pointed out that taking a deep breath and "bearing" something for 15 seconds won't kill anyone.

It's not like someone's invited you over and insisted that you watch porn with your pork.

This is just silly.

We often say, "bon appetit" to start a meal (as a lot of you do probably). Our French exchange student finally asked us what Americans say before the meal. We blinked and said, "grace...or... the waiter might tell you to 'Enjoy your meal.' Or they say nothing!"

A day later I heard his friend ask him the same question, and heard him, in French, give our answer incredulously. I never found out which part was the most incredulous for him.

I grew up saying grace, and have since become a nonbeliever. I was asked a while ago to actually say the grace, and had to decline. I find comfort in holding hands with my family, and being thankful, but I can't say the words they want me to.

LSky wrote:
"Most people are uncomfortable being dictated to in their own home because someone decides to play the guest card."
&
"It's not like someone's invited you over and insisted that you watch porn with your pork."

Remind me never to accept an invitation to dinner from LSky

When you invite someone into your home they are literally "guests" - they are not playing the "guest card". And when you invite someone into your home the onus is on you to provide for their comfort and well-being.

I use dinner parties to connect with old friends but also to get to know new people. When I have new friends over I ask if they have any allergies or food preferences/restrictions and what they like to drink, etc. This is what a gracious host does & I don't feel like I'm being "dictated" to.

People keep asking here what the big deal is about bearing a 15 second grace. Conversely, I would ask you what's the big deal about forgoing that 15 second grace if you don't know the religious orientation of your guests?

No, grace is not "pork & porn" (which sounds like a fun party!) - but it can potentially cause discomfort as evidenced here in the comments, so why would you risk this with your guests? Doing so is what seems "silly" to me.

People who get that upset at hearing someone say a short prayer before a meal should JUST STAY HOME.

Hmmm, choice of dinner with the vitriolic and inhospitable Holly, LSky or Bitter, or staying home? No contest: home never looked better, lol.

As I said in the other thread, the supreme discomfort comes when the host asks the guest (you!) to lead the table in prayer.

People who get that upset at hearing someone say a short prayer before a meal should JUST STAY HOME.>>

but if I don't know you're going to say it, Holly, how will i know to stay at home?

and none of you "grace-sayers" have answered my question - why do you say grace before meals, and not at other times? why not when you have a cup of tea, or a beer, or for that matter when you open the curtains in the morning? what about when you're out and about and, say, go into McDs? do you say it then?

why single out meal-times?

I'm out. Peace.

Anne, we do say a sort of grace before having a glass of wine.

It’s along the lines of “God, I could use a drink!”

The popping cork nicely punctuates the end of grace.

I've never been in an English home that says Grace - and I do have Christian friends of various flavours.

I have been in homes of non-English Christians in the UK when grace has been said.

I just sit quietly, don't bow my head (why would I do that?) and wait for them to finish before we all start our meal. On that level, it's fine, their home, their religion, it doesn't hurt me to sit quiet for a short time while they do something important to them.

However, yes, I do usually get a little anxious during it. For the exact reasons stated above. For me,
1) There has always been an expectation that I am also Christian and will join in. This is because pretty much everyone they know shares their belief and customs, they often don't socialise much (or at all) with English people so I guess it's sometimes surprising to them to come across someone who doesn't. I don't like people making religious presumptions about me; I find it irritating, even though I know they mean no harm by it. I think if you are going to say Grace around strangers it would be more polite to say something like 'We are going to say Grace now, please join in if you wish' first, rather than just launching into it. Make it an invitation rather than an assumed 'something we are all going to automatically participate in'.
2) On this line, I have twice been asked, as the guest, to say the grace. This puts me on the spot and makes me very uncomfortable. When I tried to politely 'pass', I wasn't allowed to. I ended up having to explain why, before they would accept I didn't want to.
3)That's normally the end of it. But sometimes, it isn't. sometimes this to being questioned on why aren't I Christian, have I ever been to church, no? oh they can't believe it!, would I like to come to church? How can I live without god? Why don't I come to their church? Why don't I try it, it's fun, I might enjoy it? (which is the oddest reason I can think of to persuade an atheist to go to church, but I've heard it more than once). I don't go to dinner to discuss religion. They have their beliefs, I have mine, we should respect each other, I'd rather talk about something else as I know they aren't going to get anywhere converting me, and I have no interest in coverting them, so what's the point?

So that's why I get a slight sinking feeling in my stomach when people say grace. What's going to come? Usually nothing, and that's fine, but sometimes people have gone on to make me feel uncomfortable/attacked/judged/patronised.

I think the answer to this dilemma is to close your eyes and
think of England or since you are in England perhaps Italy.

Nona1 - we're on the same page (but it's not a holy book).

nicely put, nona.

I've not faced that dilemma, but I can see how uncomfortable it would have made you.

immimi - nice idea. I'll try it next time!

I guess I have been lucky, I have never been in a home where Grace was said that I was asked to say it, or that it seemed to be more then it was, a short prayer of thanks for the food and friends gathering.. I certainly would not consider anyone giving pointed judgemental looks Christian anyways.

Nona, thank you for that thoughtful contribution. It exactly describes the reasons for the discomfort I feel when I suddenly realize a blessing is going to be said before a meal.

Your experiences closely follow my own, with the one exception of a dinner in which the host simply would not let the matter go. He insisted that I join the hand holding circle and lead the table in prayer. When I politely explained why I would have to decline, I was not so politely asked to leave the home. I felt like the little flower girl being cast out into the blizzard.

I should hope that none of our European visitors would ever be subjected to such an extreme situation, and I asked my original question to see how they viewed the practice, which to many of them must appear very strange, indeed.

I've never seen the hand holding thing,but it wouldn't bother me, although I wouldn't want to join in, which would cause a problem with people next to me having to stretch across me I suppose. Their problem.

What I have found quite funny sometimes is just after grace starts, there's sometimes one family member who must feel the same way but obliged to go through the motions. Nearly always someone's eyes pop open after the few words and they start looking round, with a bored/exasperated look on their face. Then they see me looking at them...and look embarrassed. One did roll their eyes at me once. 'Aha'!' I think. The secret atheist. It's a shame people feel under pressure to fake something like this. It's usually a younger member of the family.

We are and Irish/Austrian Catholic couple living in Belgium. We say grace before meals with the children every evening or with our immediate family on special family occasions. There is no handholding and normally it is a short one or two liner. We would never dream of inflicting it on guests. either.

Yes I have been in American homes where there has been grace. I did find it a bit strange and OTT and often quite long. I was asked once to say grace and said it in Irish (Gaelic).

When I politely explained why I would have to decline, I was not so politely asked to leave the home. I felt like the little flower girl being cast out into the blizzard.>>

I'm tempted to suggest that that doesn't seem like a very Christian thing to do, but I'll resist.

nukesafe - what a horrid experience.

Two excellent questions:

G_Hopper: "People keep asking here what the big deal is about bearing a 15 second grace. Conversely, I would ask you what's the big deal about forgoing that 15 second grace if you don't know the religious orientation of your guests?"

annhig: "People who get that upset at hearing someone say a short prayer before a meal should JUST STAY HOME.>>
but if I don't know you're going to say it, Holly, how will i know to stay at home? "

still await answers.

I thought you'd have figured it out by now, thursday, but obviously you need an explanation. Here it is. Simply decline all invitations unless you know for certain that grace will not be said before the meal. For good effect, lock your doors and hide under your bed from those awful Christians!

Thursdays, I guess I tend to know the people whos homes I am invited to eat in.. dinner parties here are usually restricted to actual friends and relatives , not mere aquiantances ..

I tend to know a little bit about my friends. If they are hard sell bible thumpers I am pretty sure one would know before one went to their house, since hard sell bible thumpers would "preach" at you well before you got to the point in a friendship where a dinner invitation would be issued.

If I did not know my friends were Christians who liked to say Grace before dinner ,then I am going to assume they would not be freaking out and trying to all of a sudden pressure me.

I guess the solution is, don't go to the homes of people you don't know much about, wait till you know them a bit better, maybe have new friends over for coffee.. usually if someone is a very strident preacher it will emerge WELL before you are close enough to have them for dinner.

I find it hard to believe perfectly "normal" friends all of a sudden go all "christian psycho" on you when you sit down at their dinner table'( and you never noticed it before) . I think most christian friends that are hanging out with would likely just say a quick grace and say "pass the peas".. thats always been my experience.

Apparently some of you have eaten with people you don't know very well and have encountered some extreme behaviour.

I thought you'd have figured it out by now, thursday, but obviously you need an explanation. Here it is. Simply decline all invitations unless you know for certain that grace will not be said before the meal.>>

I'm not saying that I won't sit politely while my hosts say grace before a meal. I don't think that it would bother me at all. But I understand why others could feel discomforted by it - clearly Holly, you don't.

but while your being so kind as to answer some questions, perhaps you'll answer this for me - allowing that the Christian God is omnipotent, omipresent, and omni everything else, why is it necessary to say grace at all? doesn't S/He know what is in your hearts? would S/He very upset if when you had guests present, you just said grace silently to yourselves as you sat down?

annhig, some christains do just say grace to themselves, but different customs are in each area /church/families etc.. so therefore its not just a religious ritual , it can be a custom.. and when in Rome....

annhig, you seem like you know what to do as a guest.

This prayer thing may be like finding a strawberry on my plate. I'm allergic to strawberries.

Instead of thinking that my host is trying to poison me, or being a horrible host because they didn't know or remember that I'm allergic to them, I quietly shove them to the side. There's no reason to call it to my host's attention or even come home and start a post about those "D@mn Strawberry Eaters!" It's life.

If I'm concerned, I should stay home but I like people. I'm not there for the food, I go for the company.

I would only say something if they asked why I wasn't eating the eggplant parmesian, since it would be a main course and hard to hide. (another allergy)

>>and none of you "grace-sayers" have answered my question - why do you say grace before meals, and not at other times? why not when you have a cup of tea, or a beer, or for that matter when you open the curtains in the morning? what about when you're out and about and, say, go into McDs? do you say it then? <<

We say grace because we are thankful to God for all He gives us, including food and the means to buy and cook it.

I pray a lot of other times during the day, too, not just before a meal. I also pray before meals when I'm in public, though if I'm by myself or with others who don't share my beliefs, it will be a brief silent prayer (I think I said this in my other post on this thread).

Nukesafe, what an awful thing to have happen. Annhig, you're right - it wasn't very Christian.

Lee Ann

I really do not mind declining invitations when I am unsure of what might happen. Let's face it (and this will raise hackles), in the majority of American homes you are not going to miss a spectacular gastronomic meal if you are not there. All you are going to miss is a grilling along the lines of "how much is your electric bill?" "how much do you earn?" "don't you want to move to America?" "I couldn't go to the beaches there with the naked women" "do people really eat snails/horses/rabbits?" "do they have escalators in Europe?" "what's it like not to have freedom of the press?" "are the commies still a big problem?" et al.

In case you are wondering, I did not make up a single one of those questions.

If invited, I just claim severe jet lag or intestinal disruption.

kerouac, if I had to eat with people like that I'd rather stay home with a cold burger.

How in the world did you find them?

If you lack the religion gene, you won't get this, but grace, like the brief prayers Lee Ann so beautifully describes is a form of mindfulness, of being aware of where you are and of your relationship to the universe and, for some of us, its author.

It has perhaps a different form but not a different purpose than mindfulness in Zen, which is not a religion but a practice (god is not part of Zen)

Would those who object to grace before meat object to being mindful for a moment ? I don't know.

As a pastor (that's right a minister! thought not a priest per se) of a liberal mainstream church here in Canada, I would never dream of MAKING someone say "Grace" at my table.

We usually at dinner have a (VERY!) brief moment of blessing the food and the fishers, farmers and servers. We do not hole hands: that is an American custom that originated in the souther US in the 40's as I understand it.

I am a good cook and hope like heck that my guests will feel blessed by the combination of the good food and the ambiant peace and companionship.

But I am invited my guests to feed them, not convert them. And I would never feel offended if someone failed to join in...I would however, feel a bit put out if they made as much fuss about it as some of the folks in this thread.

Eyes down, mouth shut, wait until it's over.

>>Eyes down, mouth shut, wait until it's over.<<

I didn't know you'd eaten at my Aunt Dolly's.....

The last meal I had in America the big cheese I was with, said grace and then explained how he had bribed the local police chief from arresting his son for stealing beer (kegs of the stuff) out of a train. I would say that it put me off me cat fish, but since it had to be washed down with sweet iced cold tea.... all I could think was "and these guys run the world".

justine, Lsky, and elendilpickle, than you for your thoughtful responses.

however, if may say so, you haven't really answered the question, so let me put it another way - if you are prayerful throughout the day, [presumably silently], why do you feel the need to articulate those prayers when you sit down to eat? why not when you have a cup of tea? or a glass of beer?

I'm an atheist too, ann, but I would guess it has to do with the community/commonality of whichever family/collective meal (with an implied echo of the Last Supper and all that implies) is deemed special/festive enough.

Give it a rest, ann.

Annhig, we usually try to eat together as a family - not always easy with our schedules, but most of us have at least one meal together each day. When we pray in that setting, it's acknowledging, as a family, our thankfulness to God for making us a family and for everything He gives us.

Part of it probably is cultural, but for my family,it is also a genuine expression of faith and gratitude.

I don't normally have a nice cup of tea and a sit down, but believe me, I am thankful for my coffee every morning! And that usually takes the form of something like, "Mmmm, this is tasty, thank you Lord," as I stagger, zombie-like, around the kitchen.

Lee Ann

thank you Lee Ann. That makes sense. Said in that spirit, I would positively applaud you saying it and be happy to be there while you did it. I'd like to think that if you felt that a guest was uncomfortable though, you'd make less of it, or even postpone it to your next meal [or cup of coffee!]

Patrick - looks like you hit the nail on the head.

Holly - I don't think that you really "get" that there is more than one way of looking at things and that genuine discussion between people who disagree is possible, as I hope that Lee Ann and I [amongst others] have proved.

I'm not sure you understand what genuine discussion is, ann. All I see you doing is trying to play "whack a mole."

Regarding your comment above: " I'd like to think that if you felt that a guest was uncomfortable though, you'd make less of it, or even postpone it to your next meal [or cup of coffee!]"

How condescending of you.

I've never played "whack a mole", whatever that is. I quite like moles.

I think that you have effectively proved my point.

and aren't you being patronising by presuming to speak for Lee Ann?

I'm sure that if she thinks I've been condescending, she'll say so.

How would anyone know that a guest was going to be "so uncomfortable" with a few words said before the meal, the reality is most people can survive it without being "so uncomortable" .. and i still am not sure how people would know that before hand anyways.. I don't think anyone needs to ask permission to say Grace in their own home though,, that does seem a bit presumptious . I suppose as a guest if one really was that uncomfortable with grace being said they would know not to accept another invitiation for dinner, and or you could quietly explain to host/ess ( at another time) that while you would love to spend time with them you found the saying of grace too uncomfortable.

"if you are prayerful throughout the day, [presumably silently], why do you feel the need to articulate those prayers when you sit down to eat? why not when you have a cup of tea? or a glass of beer?"

ann, I try to remember gratitude wherever and whatever I do. At the dinner table before I eat, I always take a moment to honor the gift of food with a bit of silence. At any table I take that moment, it interferes with no one. I doubt anyone even notices. If they do, they didn't have to stop eating for me.

If I eat with friends who believe as I do we will take each other's hands. I love being connected to my friends, again we take a moment of silence to thank, God, the universe, a passing spirit, the great Tao or Krishna for the food.

If the OP was at that table then she would be outnumbered. It's nothing we think about doing, we just do it. It takes no longer than a nice cleansing breath.

Last week when I was at my brother's home, who btw is an atheist, his children wanted to say a blessing aloud. They prayed aloud, even though my husband and I don't pray aloud and my brother doesn't pray at all. No one fell over from prayer poisoning. T

You really don't get it do you Holly? You accuse others on this Forum of being "condescending", while you display your own narrow mindedness by accusing others of being nut cases.

Your earlier comment, "Anyone who finds it "offensive" to hear someone say a prayer to God before a meal - out loud and in their presence! - really needs to have their head examined.".

You are saying that if someone does not agree with your belief system, they are either mentally imbalanced, or in need of psychiatric care. Perfectly rational folks here live full lives without the need for either public prayer or psychiatry.

ann, I try to remember gratitude wherever and whatever I do. At the dinner table before I eat, I always take a moment to honor the gift of food with a bit of silence. At any table I take that moment, it interferes with no one. I doubt anyone even notices. If they do, they didn't have to stop eating for me. >>

that, LSky, is exactly my point. if you have guests whose beliefs you aren't sure about, why not do just that?

<<If the OP was at that table then she would be outnumbered. It's nothing we think about doing, we just do it. It takes no longer than a nice cleansing breath.>>

isn't because she's in a minority that you ought to be taking more care of her feelings?

BTW, I remember asking my family to say grace out loud when i was a child. so what?

Oh, I get it, nukesafe. What YOU are saying is that if someone doesn't agree with YOUR belief system, then they should suppress their own custom in their own home to conform to YOUR belief system. Even when they may not know what that belief system might or might not be. How selfish is that (of you)? Not everyone wants to live in your me, Me, ME world.

To call the saying of grace in one's own home "public prayer" is just bizarre, and anyone who gets as upset as you and some others on this thread do about it, truly does indicate that some of you need to have your heads examined.

And ann, I was in no way speaking for Lee Ann above. I was speaking for myself. It was an observation.

When you invite someone you don't know well into your house it becomes a public place, and therefore a spoken grace (not Lee Ann's) becomes public prayer. By inviting someone into your house you take responsibility for their comfort and welbeing, and it ceases to be all about YOU.

"that, LSky, is exactly my point. if you have guests whose beliefs you aren't sure about, why not do just that? "

Because people don't. That's it. Listen, people who like people are aware of their foibles and allow for these things; whether the chips fall on your side or theirs. Other people don’t and they complain miserably about everyone and everything they can think of, thus proving, they should stay home..

If you don't love people, you'll spend your life trying to convert them to whatever side you think is right at the moment.

I see it all the time on this board. Some people are just chronic whiners.

LSky -I can't pretend to understand any of that.

"people don't"...what? can't you allow for YOUR guests' foibles and just say grace silently to yourself?

what's so hard about that?

we're not talking about conversion, we're talking about manners.

'No one fell over from prayer poisoning.'

best line of thread

Holly, I really don't want to start a slanging match here, but you misconstrue what I said in my last post. I said nothing about what you do in your own home. I was only responding to your statement (which I quoted) that anyone who is made uncomfortable by prayer before a meal is in need of help from mental health professionals.

Don't you see how insensitive and bigoted that is? Not everyone believes as you do --- and that is all right. It does not mean they are crazy.

annhig, if you don't bother reading my posts, then it becomes obvious to me that you're just interested in an arguement.

LSky, i don't know where you get the idea I didn't read your post, I read it several times.

I just didn't understand it.

and what's wrong with an argument/discussion/debate? isn't that the way we exchange ideas and learn?

I've learnt quite a lot from this thread - I wonder if you can honestly say the same.

annhig, so should people ask their guests if they may say grace and get their permission ? I mean, at this point I am not sure how one can tell if saying grace would make a guest that uncomfortable ( since most non believers say they can sit through it fine, only a few find it so unnerving they wouldn't be able to sit through it without alot of mental/emotional upset ) so one would have to ask right? It doesn't sit right with me that a host has to ask permission in their own home to do something they do all the time and that has alot of meaning to them. I suppose they could say "does anyone object to me saying grace" but wouldn't most poeple feel rude to say "why yes, I do ".. I know I would never say that to anyone..

justine - that's a good point, but we often do things differently when we've got guests. perhaps another way to approach it might be to say to the guest that it's something you like to do, and it would be nice if they joined in, but if they don't, that's fine too.

not so much asking permission as forewarning the guest/s so that they feel as comfortable as possible.

it really just comes back to good manners doesn't it? for both guest and host.

" can't you allow for YOUR guests' foibles and just say grace silently to yourself?"

I think I'd mentioned more than once I say grace silently to myself.

I have no objection if others need to lend voice to it and they can do that with no reprimand at my table.

By the time one mentions it, it's over.

This thread is awesome and I'm sad I missed it earlier. The notion that someone is "discomforted" in any meaningful way by the saying of grace is so silly that it boggles the mind.

No, I don't say grace before eating, but choosing to be offended by a host who did (and, yes, it is a deliberate choice) is simply something I can't even begin to comprehend. Honestly, I want to believe that this is all a big joke, because I simply can't imagine what it is like to go through life seeking out ways to be offended.

I agree. I'm one who feels a bit anxious about it for the reasons explained, but only because I'm worried about ending up in a conversation I really don't want to have. I also don't like people assuming they know my religion.

But I'm not offended in the least by the Grace, and I don't get why anyone would be.

"discomforted" does not equal "offended"

"discomforted" does not equal "offended"

Fine. I still can't imagine choosing to be "discomforted" by 30 seconds of a prayer and can't imagine what it is like to go out of one's way to be discomforted.

Seriously, what is the discomfort? That someone might mention God? Really? That is all it takes to discomfort you? Wow. Just wow.

And, just so we are clear, I would say the exact same thing about a religious fellow being "discomforted" by attending a dinner where grace was not said.