Hidden costs, etc

Europe is full of outdoor markets where you can buy cheap street food. As far as supermarkets go, there are thousands of online resources, not to mention information in guidebooks, that will show you exactly where supermarkets are. It would have been possible to figure out in advance where the supermarkets in DC are.

I'm not familiar with every airport in Europe, but having made 130 or so trips to various countries there, can't think of a single airport you'd have to take a cab to reach. There's always cheap public transportation.

As it stands, you are budgeting only $62.00 a day, including airfare. I don't think that's enough. You probably won't be able to find a hostel for $30 a night (maybe 30 euro, but even that's low). I doubt a healthy 25-year-old can subsist on what $12 a day for food would get you, either. On the other hand, you've budgeted $10 a day for museums and sites - if you're actually going to go to one every day that makes sense, but somehow I doubt you will. Also, you haven't budgeted for transportation except that $10 a day - can't see how you're going to move around in Europe much on that budget.

So all in all, no, I don't think this plan is realistic for Europe.

Just a few VERY quick comments since I'm dashing out. But others will chime in . . .

• >>Supermarkets are not very visible in a city if you don't know where you are going, << The simple answer -- ASK. Any local will know where the nearest supermarket and/or street market is

• $30 a day will work in some places, but for many European cities, that isn't enough for even a hostel. $30 = about £17, €20 (and by the time of your trip could be even less)

• $10 a day for misc is also VERY low. Public transport/museums/drinks/checking luggage in stopover cities, etc.

• >>you often have to pay for a cab which can cost $40-50.<< Don't worry about taking taxis to just about any European airport. Most of them have really excellent transport connection.

Was posting the same time as StCirq . . . .

A few comments, don't limit yourself to supermarkets, look for food products in markets (like farmers markets in the US) too. Remember food at airports often costs more, the same can be said of railway stations in some countries.

I cannot help you will accomodation.

You already mention that discount airfares can work out to be expensive if you need to pay alot for a transfer to/from the airport. In some cases you need to pay for baggage fees to, which would be an addtional "hidden cost". Another factor to consider is the time it takes you to travel to/from the airport to the city centre, the trains stations are almost always in the city centre.

For train tickets, you need to determine if individual tickets, or a rail pass will be cheaper. Sometimes even a combination of the two will be best. Much of this depends on your route. Remember, the less you travel around, the less transportation costs, and the more time you spend sightseeing instead of travelling from A to B.

For the countries that you mention, Italy, Greece, England, Spain and Turkey, I doubt a rail pass will be a good choice. Because of the distances between these countries, I'd consider flying. Think of England, Spain and Italy/Greece as the three corners of a triangle geographically. Travelling by train will take too long.

The crucial thing about Europe is that you can pay a lot or a little for essentially the same thing. The crucial thing is planning ahead, realising that we don't squander our money, sop there's no reason for you to, and research

Let's take a couple of these things. The folowing are huge generalisations, and there are exceptions, but:

- trains. For travel over a 6-8 week period from country to country, cheap flights are almost always the cheapest way to travel. While "all you can eat" railpasses sometimes work, within countries most train tickets are at price x to x+50% or so if you book ahead, and at 2x or 3x if you book on the spot. Multinational train websites rarely explain this: you need to use each national site to get the best prices

- Crucial hidden extra. If you see a flight advertised for €1, it's not. Other charges (inaccurately called "taxes") are tacked on. Go through the websitye to the finalpage before planning to take the flight.

- getting to airports. No European airline company flies a plane to an airport that lacks decent public transport into the city the airport serves. A near-exception is Ryanair, which flies to airports they quite lyingly claim serves a city when the bloody place is scarcely in the same continent. With Ryanair, it's not unheard of for the bus into town (there always is one) to cost more than the flight

- Supermarkets. In Britain, there's always branches of proper supermarket chains in city centres - and only idiots buy manufacturers' brands of anything. Avoid Marks & Spencer if you're on a budget. In Italy, city-centre supermarkets are very rare indeed, and you just have to use the (in my experience always overpriced) convenience stores. Street markets are sometikmes cheaper. Though not an expert, I've never seen any city-centre mainstream supermarkets in Spain: as in Italy, you always seem to depend on convenience stores. In Turkey and Greece, it's a non-issue: convenience stores are generally so cheap, they're cheaper than Western supermarkets

- UK museums are mostly free, but some non-museums (like the Tower of London) can be crippling. If you're on a budget, think of leaving them till next time.

The 600 airfare may be the deal breaker.
Try a shorter trip within a more limited area (say, Greece and Turkey instead of all 4; forget UK). Concentrate on rural areas.
Check out a current Let's Go or Lonely Planet for good hostel budget info.

I appreciate how you are going about planning this but I think your estimates are off for lodging. I don't think you can get too many hostels in Europe for $30 a night, you are aware how bad the exchange rate is right now, aren't you? In Paris, I think they are around 30 EURO a night. I know you can get some cheaper than that in other countries, but I think your budget for lodging is too low.

As for food, European cities are like US cities regarding finding supermarkets, it's no different. I understand what you mean, but there are not a lot of big major supermarkets in the main center of major cities, the real estate is too expensive. So I imagine that's what you found in DC, and you'll find that in other cities, also. There are some a bit off the main drags and in somewhat more residential areas, but you may need to ask, they won't be that obvious nor will you necessarily stumble across them. In DC, for example (I live there), there are some supermarkets fairly near Dupont Circle, Adams Morgan, and some other parts, but you wouldn't probably run across them as a tourist that easily.

Thanks for the response so far. The $3720 I've budgeted so far does not include trains/planes or any food except for the one meal a day I've included, so I anticipate that these expenses will bring up my total by around $1200, I'm just not sure about those costs yet.

Regarding lodging costs, do you really think that I should budget $50/day for hostels? I've just been browsing on sites like hostels.com, and there are advertised rates as low as $20/night (not euros) in most cities, so I thought that budgeting $30 would give me a bit of a margin of safety. Is this unrealistic?

Thanks again,
Ben

A good way to estimate some of your costs would be for you to find a current copy of one of the guidebooks for your chosen destination, either SA or Europe, that has been written for the backpacker. These usually show pricing for hostels, museums and some restaurants, fairly accurate at the time of publication. I think Let's Go, Rough Guide and Lonely Planet are the three most often used for this purpose. You'll probably want to take one with you anyway so you have the ability to reference those things you might want to see and/or do when you're in your chosen destinations.

You are really underestimating your food and other daily costs in europe. While some sights are free - many are not. for instance, the tower of London entry fee is 17 pounds - or almost $25. Many other sights are $15 plus. Daily transit within cities isn;t free - even with various passes this can easily cost you $5 or more per day - unless you plan on walking miles.

$12 is VERY modest for any sort of meal out - unless you have a very small appetite and drink only tap water. And even picking up things for a sandwich for dinner (if that's enough) will be more than $5.

Finally - if you want any sort of nightlife you haven;t allowed even a penny for that. forget any sort of mixed drinks or any trendy places. but going into even the most casual pub and having a single beer or wine (whatever is cheaper) will be $5 at least.

I think you need to look at some of the student guides (perhaps Let's Go) or one of the websites to see how cheaply it can be done - even if you know all of the tricks and are willing to forego even many of the basics. (You don;t want to find yourself at the end of your money with time left before your plane leaves and no way to pay for food.)

Having been to most of the countries on your list (both Europe and SA) I would say with your budget, do SA.

I'll echo the concerns on lodging. Also remember the further out from the city center the cheeper it is, but also has more transportation costs. A 4E cab ride to get to the subway 2E can add up really quickly.

In either location you can stretch your grocery money if you plan ahead and bring a few things that travel well with you. There are cans / pouches of tuna salad / chicken salad, crackers, cheese and crackers and granola bars which travel well.

In either location you will most likely be drinking bottled water, while in SA not expensive, it is a necessity.

If you are checking luggage you can also bring a knife, can opener and corkscrew. Unfortunately sausages and other items just don't work with a plastic knife.

If you are gone that long also plan on paying for some internet time even if just to down load photos and check in with home. You also might be in need of laundry service at some point, you can only sink wash and dry so often before you need a machine.

I don't think you necessarily need to budget $50 a night, but assuming you'll always get hostels for 20 euro a night is a bit on the low side, I'd say (which is what $30 is nowadays). And you'll have to stay in the cheapest dorm rooms that way. For Paris, there are some less than 30 euro if you will stay in the group dorm rooms. I just checked and Woodstock (which is a cheap private one) is 19 euro, YOung & Happy which is very central is 24 euro, the Jules Ferry HI hostel (which is kind of far out) is 23 euro. These are in dorm rooms, not doubles or singles. So that's an example of what I was talking about. The BVJ one in the Latin Qtr is 29 euro, and that's in a dorm room.

$50 would be over 30 euro, so I don't think you need to budget that much for a hostel room. Other cities are cheaper than Paris, most likely.

I think in doing your planning and asking help on forums, it will be useful to start thinking in and quoting your budget in Euros, because that's how all the prices are quoted. Then you can do the converting instead of the advisors. Here's the best currency conversion site, gives the rates of dollars to euros, pounds, etc ec. http://www.xe.com/ucc/.
--- It would be good to think of your budget as xx Euros per day total... (with stuff like transportation, museums) being pro-rated, i.e. 600€ over 60 days = 10€ per day.

Hi L77,

I think that your budget is rather low for Europe.

Accomodations and food are usually somewhat lower in SA.

The Thorntree forum at www.lonelyplanet.com is a better resource for the budget-restricted young than we are.

Enjoy your visit.

No personal experience with this, but I've seen YHA St. Paul's recommended before:

http://www.yha.org.uk/find-accommodation/london/hostels/london-st-pauls/index.aspx

If you check availability for 10 days ahead, the cheapest is around 20 pounds (assuming you are a YHA or Hostelling International member). Otherwise it's 3 pounds extra per night.

So $30 per night could be (barely) doable.

You are already getting terrific advice and information (like checking prices in current guide books, being sure to look at cost of luggage on cheap airlines, etc. etc.), so I am not going to add to it right now. Just want to say, even if your figures are off at the moment, your systematic approach to figuring things out is great. You are to be congratulated for your willingness to accept opinions and help, and to consider a realistic adjustment of your budget.

We've traveled to Europe twice and South America once in the past year. South America was much less expensive except for the airfare which was a great deal more expensive. Among the European countries,we found Portugal and Greece to be less expensive than the other countries.

Have you considered www.couchsurfing.com? Given your age, it seems an ideal way to see Europe on a budget, as well as meet lots of interesting people. You would save not only on lodging, but also on food, because I'm sure your hosts would provide some. And you would probably experience Europe in a way that would be much more meaningful.

Regarding couchsurfing, my son is currently about 6 weeks into a round-the-world trip via couch - 4 weeks in the US, about 2 weeks now in Europe and counting. He has found it great fun and is making friends right and left, although he is a real people person so that's easy for him. Some of his hosts have even fed him. The downside is that you can't set things up way ahead, more like a week or two, and you can't count on finding someone on the site that you want to stay with and who is available when you want to be there. He has ended up camping or in a hostel when this happens, but for the most part he's surfing successfully.

If you are interested, you should start several months early putting a profile together, getting some of your friends to join and write references for you, etc., and corresponding with some of the members so you can build some relationships and establish that you aren't an axe murderer so people will be willing to put you up.

I am in your same position right now as far as Europe goes, and I think (know) you can do it.

I am here for 4 months, visiting 14 countries. My budget is $4,000.

PLAN AHEAD.
use eurolines, the bus system - it takes longer, but costs 1/4 the price.

buy things at a grocery/market.
eat 2 meals a day.

public transportation is almost never REALLY necessary unless you have your pack with you.

go while you are under 26 as museums, etc. will be far cheaper. if possible, get an ISIC card or something similar for proof of your age.

europe is a lot of fun, and can be really cheap, just plan ahead.

I also want to mention location of places to stay...the farther out you are the cheaper the hotel/hostel - but the more you may need to spend for transportation and time spent commuting to the interesting parts of cities.

My son traveled in Germany and France for a few weeks after he graduated from high school.
When we questioned him about his repeated requests for more money, his reply was "there are lots of hidden costs in Europe - like bottled water and discos"

We still laugh and use that line often.

Thanks to all. It sounds like I need to either: budget more for a Europe trip, go to South America instead, or reduce my length of stay so that I can spend more per day.

Or consider something diffent. I've always wanted to see India...

Thailand's cheap.......

Well, if you've always wanted to see India, then go. It's amazing! And yes, cheap.

India is very beautiful, with varied cultures, landscapes and architecture. It is amazing with warm people. It is multi- dimentional.
Above all, It is very reasonable.

luke7777, just a suggestion. Some flights to India from the US have a connection somewhere in Europe. Maybe you could travel to India with a stopover in Europe. Why not check flight prices, and see what your options are for stopovers. This way you can travel around India and you'll also be able to see a little of Europe. The flight to India will cost more, if you spend more time in India and less time in Europe you could vacation within your budget.

Sign up as a member on easyjet - they offer occasional very good specials on flights within Europe. I've just booked a heap with a 30% discount for Winter 2010 time. We've budgeted on approx $150 AUD/night for accommodation for our 3 1/2 month trip. With the occasioanl 'splurge'. Remember that hostels aren't necessarily the cheapest option. Use your investigative skills well in advance in this regard. We've also saved a bit by booking early PREMS train tickets. Eurail passes are a rip off I've decided. Anyway, we haven't been yet, but I guess it might be helpful to let you in on how we're trying to save $$$ too.
All the best

In my youth, more than two decades ago, I made two multweek trips to Europe, first with girlfriend and then boyfriend (and now husband). We had almost NO money on either trip. Totally tight budget. Costs are more now but we had two great trips and the ways we kept cost down still work:

a) camp - by far the cheapest, there are lots of campsites, many of them wonderful.
b) we almost never ate at a restaurant. Maybe once every four or five days at maximum. Delis and markets have lots of good food to go. Ate a lot of cheese, roasted chicken, bread, and fruit. It was fantastic.
c) in many countries (eg France), museums are free one day a week. Plan that very carefully to take advantage.
d) Just walk around, be like a local. I would never ever - even now - do expensive tourist traps like the Tower of London.

Texastrips - I'm curious as to whether you have actually been to the Tower of London? It's quite fascinating. I won't deny that there are some touristy aspects, but it's got tons of history. Surely you wouldn't write off all major attractions simply because they cost money and a lot of people like to visit them.