carmi_m

Hi to all you forever helpful foderites,
My husband, 15yr old son and myself are planning a very last minute and first time trip to europe from australia,arr in Frankfurt apr 1st.. which is also Easter Thursday. We have to deliver my son to Paris on the 23rd April to join up with a school trip and then pick him up in Rome on the 7th may. He is doing a very sensible and civilized trip, Paris, train to venice, florence and rome spending 3-4 days in each place. Whilst we will be relishing our first holiday without kids in eons we will probably be covering the same area as them.. definately not on the same days! As frankfurt was the only destination we could fly into with our frequent flyers we will have to double back a bit. So our rough plan is to leave frankfurt do the Romantic way head across to innsbruck, salzburg back to Munich drop off car and then train it to Switzerland see hopefully lauterbrunnen and surrounds (DH and son think they will have time for a ski also) and any other suggestions, head down Lake Como way, fit in the Cinque terra head along the Riveria then up thru France via loire valley and then into Paris.. and thencome back and do venice tuscany and rome. We are unsure whether we should train or drive or do train between countries. My DH is stressing because he feels we should have accomodation bocked in Germany over Easter.. all the inns might be full..oops thats christmas. As it is our first time any suggestions for must see and dont bother would be appreciated. We love the great out doors , history and great food and people..Not to keen on crowds!
cheers
carm

kleeblatt

You have 2 weeks and waaaayyyy too much on your itinerary.

Stay 3 days in each destination.
Allow for train time between each destination.
Go by train.
For Switzerland, use sbb.ch
Book your Easter accommodations now because hotels will be full.

bb_voglioviverecosi

I agree with schuler: too much in few days! I can help you with advices in Italy. From Venice to Florence (Tuscany) for example, you arrive faster with an EuroStar Freccia Rossa train.

If you arrive in Florence during Easter, here is a suggestion of what you could do:
http://www.turismo.intoscana.it/allt...n-of-the-cart/

If you decide to visit more than Florence, you can find all you need here:

http://www.allthingstuscany.com

Ciao ciao

Barbara

Palenque

Cars are great for exploring rural areas - like Tuscany and its fabled hill towns and say along Germany's Mosel Valley - the Romantic Road, etc. but for large cities cars can be a real hassle - many cities make their city centres off limits to private vehiclesand parking can be hard to find and really expensive - about $30/day in Amsterdamfor example. To get some great info on European trains and potential railpasses (even a few days in Switzerland can make the bargain Swiss Pass (which covers trains, buses, boats, city transit and even entry to 400 museums/sights) a good bet. Anyway i always spotlight for novice rail travelers contemplating a rail trip - www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download on the latter their (superb IMO) European Planning & Rail Guide that has itineraries, rail maps and a chapter on each country. There is even a Eruail-Drive Pass you may want to investigate - giving you X number of rail calendar days (flexipass - anytime within two months - a day here - a day next week, etc) and also gives you car rental days - pick up car at a train station - say Frankfurt and drive thru the Rhone Gorge and Mosel Valley - return the car to another train station and train to another area.

owlwoman

I would rent a car, and yes, I would have hotels booked for at least the first week when Easter vacation is going on. Our first trip to Europe, we arrived in Milan on Easter Monday, it was a ghost town, very eerie experience, being from NY where nothing ever closes. We only booked hotels for the city parts (Milan/Venice/Rome), and it worked out well.

We did a similar trip Paris-Paris a few years ago, 17 days, drove through Switzerland, then Northern Italy to the Cinque Terre, from there we headed back West (via Provence) and North to Paris, you would head East and North toward Florence/Venice, then back towards Frankfurt.

Anyway, I would spend the first night near Frankfurt, then explore the romantic road. Cross into France via Alsace/Lorraine, head toward Paris, drop off your son. Then, head toward Beaune/Dijon and cross into Switzerland (we stayed in Vevey for a night) then into Northern Italy (we stayed in Canelli for 2 nights to explore the Piedmonte area), see the Cinque Terre, etc, then head East towards Florence/Venice, then head North back into Germany through Munich and across the Bodensee, up through the Black Forest and back to Frankfurt (I'm just guessing you're flying RT from Frankfurt?). You have almost a month, so I don't think it's too much to see. This is just a rough suggestion.

It'll be fun planning, there's lots of great off the beaten track villages with loads of parks to hike and enjoy the outdoors in this part of the world.

zeppole

Your trip looks so impossible to me that I can't help but think I'm misreading it. Are you contemplating arriving in Frankfurt Apr 23 from Australia and immediately head out to:

Drive the Romantic Road
Ski and tour in the Bernese Oberland
Visit Lago di Como
Visit le Cinque Terre
Visit the French Riviera
Visit the Loire Valley
Tour Paris
Arrive in Venice and tour it
Tour Tuscany
Tour Rome

leaving the 7th of May?

zeppole

Oh sorry! I did misread it.

You are arriving April 1.

Okay, just so you know, the train connections along the Italian and French Riviera (from le Cinque Terre to Nice) are very slow. Since you are taking such a very long trip, you should work with an auto rental company directly on the phone to learn about what kind of drop off fees you will encounter if you rent a car in one country but drop it off in another. Sometimes, if you are on a very long trip like this, they can be worth it, since they are flat fees. Sometimes not.

Try to stay in touch with weather forecasts before you head all the way to the Riviera, which can be uninteresting and not worth the drive in the rain. Piemonte is rich in things to do if you are rained out of the Riviera.

I live along the Italian Riviera and I have read some people get quite upset driving the A12 autostrade (to the point of hysteria!) You shouldn't get out of your comfort zone if you are not used to mountain driving and tunnels (that what is along the coast). There are trains.

Not only the Easter weekend but the week following is a time when Italians love to travel, go skiing, and use their train system heavily. If the weather is nice, they enjoy heading to the seaside or lakes for romance -- so you need to book accommodations and train tickets in advance.

carmi_m

Thank you all for your suggestions...My hubbie is trolling thru all the train links you suggested Palenque and after reading all your replies is leaning towards ditching the car and going with trains..The ones in Switzerland look fantastic! I realize I neglected to say we depart from rome to london for 2 days then home. I am now starting to panic that I havn't left much time to organize this trip...My younger days of just winging it might not work anymore! Now here are my Queries
1. Arr Frankfurt at 7am after 21 hr flight should we pick up car at airport and start the drive down to the romantic way stay at ?dinkelsbuhl or rothenburg or train to Munich and use that as a base to visit the sites of romantic way, salzburg and innsbruck. How long would we need?
2. From Munich catch train to Switzerland ?lauterbrunnen explore the jungfrau then ? do the Golden pass somehow get to Zermatt to do the Glacier way to St moritz then is it the Bernina rail or other rail to get us to como/bellagio and then from there to the Cinque terra.
Are we doing too much of the same thing? shold we be exploring more of other areas. My husband if he cant ski wants to hike up some hills in the Jungfrau (From theBETS guide) Will these hikes still be covered in snow in early April?
3. From Cinque terra should we train or drive across to Nice. Is it worth driving down to Marseille and then making our way up to the Loire valley and to Paris or just leave from Nice. What would be the most scenic route? The idea of a car appeals to me here to have a bit more freedom to explore the countryside. I imagine we would leave the car in ?Tours and then train into Paris otherwise we might end up like the Griswalds!
4. we have 4 days in Paris one of those being a trip up to Villiers-Brettoneaux for The ANZAC day dawn service (Aust and New Zealand War remembrance day.. the school is part of the dawn service) from there we have to make our way back to italy to explore Venice, Tuscany and Rome..I imagine a high speed train ? to venice and then trek back...Havn't given this end of the trip much thought yet..would just love to frolic in tuscany soaking up the red wine and atmosphere...No kids Yippee!
Thanks/merci/grazie again for all your help.. look forward to your answers..

Palenque

My husband if he cant ski wants to hike up some hills in the Jungfrau (From theBETS guide) Will these hikes still be covered in snow in early April?>

Yes at higher altitudes and if no snow promises to be muddy- but there are hikes that can be done at lower altitudes but just in and around Grindelwald i would think - not an expert on this but know that there could well be snow and mud on at least higher altitude trails.

But i do think, without being sure, that he can ski at some altitude in April - depending on the weather perhaps but i think it is possible normally. Others will know better but investigate that if he really wants to

Palenque

to do the Glacier way to St moritz then is it the Bernina rail or other rail to get us to como/bellagio and then from there to the Cinque terra.>

Here is a novel way to go between the Interlaken/Jungfrau Region via the Glacier Express to St Moritz WITHOUT sitting on a train for 8 hours -

From Interlaken hop a train to Meiringen (20 mins or so) and then hop on a thrilling Swiss postal bus ride up the Susten Pass to Goschenen, a stop on the Zurich-Lugano main rail line but also from which a shuttle train shuttles up a steep incline to Andermatt, a stop on the Glacier Epxress route to St Moritz- taking a bit longer than if you took a mainline train from Interlaken to Zurich and then via Chur to St Moritz but oh so much more scenic and thrilling - the bus ride itself corkscrews up to the Susten Pass before spiralling down - it stops en route for a spell near the summit.

carmi_m

Thank you Palenque for that bit of advice..How do you go about catching "the postal bus"? how long are you on it for? what about luggage which I keep forgetting that we will be lugging around.
I am finding the more reading i am doing the more confused i am getting! should have started this 6 months ago! I am now a bit concerned that arriving in Frankfurt after 20 odd hour flight and getting in a car and coping with driving on the wrong side of the road might not be a good idea..should we rail it to Wursburg then either bus or car it down the Romantic rd...We will have luggage which I imagine will restrict us in our explorations. Should we drive from Fussen thru to Salzburg then back to Munich and then unsure what train to where in Switzerland? or leave car in Fussen and train it to Munich then catch train to Salzburg and from there go to innsbruck and in to Switzerland.
I would love some advice to on the most scenic way to Paris from nice or Marseille as well
Cheers
Carm

love_travel_Aus

Hi carmi_m, we have done the early arrival in Frankfurt after travelling from Australia and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to drive - especially if this is a first time on the wrong side of the road!
We have caught trains to Wurzburg first up, and also another time to Regensburg - great places to start.
They have a good amount to see and are big enough to probably have places open over the holidays.

But - select somewhere for the first couple of days and book it now - and then try and sort out the next few days and do the same.

I suggest you put one town on the google map and then study the map for a little while - Germany is a big country - and trains are wonderful - but they do take time.
Also re read advice from palenque re train passes - helpful for a first time.

We are heading to Germany at beginning of April and have made a booking that covers Easter

On another note - I took a group of students to Villers Bretonneux on Anzac Day in 1998 (one of the first schools to do this at the time) - I have never forgotten the experience and the welcome - I hope it goes well for you and your son.

Palenque

Thank you Palenque for that bit of advice..How do you go about catching "the postal bus"? how long are you on it for? what about luggage which I keep forgetting that we will be lugging around.>

One schedule i searched for a day in May had a postal bus leaving Meiringen at 9:20am and going via the Grimsel Pass (really a dramatic ride - bus stops for a break at a huge barrage near the pass summit) arriving in Oberwald at 10:54 - hop on a regional train to Andermatt arriving 11:55 to join the Glacier Express train 12:24 - arrive St Moritz 16:58

So you have mountain bus rides and the Glacier Express, but the GE for aonly 4.5 hours not 8 straight as if you left from Zermatt.
You take a train from Interlaken-Ost to Meiringen - taking 30 minutes and running frequently. The bus depot is right by the Meiringen train station. buy your tickets before boarding the bus at the ticket window.

Palenque

Discover the Grimsel Pass: Photos and Info on Google Maps, never ...
The best Flickr photos and Youtube videos from the Grimsel Pass on Google Maps. The easiest way to travel before booking your flight or hotel.
wiki.worldflicks.org/grimsel_pass.html

Grimsel Pass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Grimsel Pass. View from the pass on Grimselsee, Grimsel Hospice and Räterichsbodensee ... Map of the reservoirs on the Bernese side below Grimsel Pass ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimsel_Pass

carmi_m

Thanks guys..More decisions to ponder!! Are you sure that Grimsel pass is 2 way looks pretty narrow Palenque!
we are stuck still on the germany /austria planning part... once again why didnt i do this earlier and how did people do this without the internet???
Firstly hubbie is determined to get car at Frankfurt and get to Rothenburg.. I showed him your report Love_travel_aus, I also have done one too many night shifts to forget that jetlagged feeling!
-Is there anything to keep us in Frankfurt? Is it a drama to catch train to Rothenburg and pick up car there though then we miss Wursburg..Does that matter?
-What would be the best place to stay to see the Neuschwanstein Castle Fussen,garmisch, hohenschwangau?
-If we drive from there to innsbruck to salzburg how much time would we need to see the sights?
-Is it worth driving back to munich ..we will still have the car.. unless we leave it somewhere else
-how long do you need in munich? Cities dont seem to appeal to me as much as the scenery and smaller villages.
-If we took night train to switzerland I imagine would we be missing out on some spectacular scenery?
Love_travel_aus if you are still out there would be interested to hear about ANZAC day. How many people attend? Is it freezing cold?
Cheers

Palenque

-If we drive from there to innsbruck to salzburg how much time would we need to see the sights?>

Depends what way you go - via Germany or the longer but oh so much more pretty route thru the Alps via Alpine valleys via Kitzbuhel, Zell am See, etc.

I really enjoyed Zell am See - cutesy town on a placid lake surrounded by high Alps - would make a great overnight as opposed to large towns.

love_travel_Aus

ANZAC day is an extraordinary experience and in our case we participated in a series of events in different towns.
Our day began with a pre dawn coach trip from Paris, then a strong sugary coffee when we got to Villers Bretonneux and then on out to the memorial.
It was cold - coats and gloves and scarf and the like. We were formally dressed as the group I was directing was a choir and we performed 4 times that day and again the next morning in Hendercourt.
But -back to the morning service - it was crowded but not squashed - although I think it has grown in popularity since then.
The grass was damp/wet so be prepared. Our students stopped at a florist in the town to purchase yellow roses to place on any grave or marker they wanted to.
I had an uncle lost in this battle so it felt even more poignant for me.
I can't remember how long the service took and after that we were able to spend time looking at the area and then headed back into the town for a performance and a big lunch at the school.
The welcome given to Australians is overwhelming and certainly made for interesting learning for our students.

Later in the day we went to Bullecourt for another service at the Australian memorial out in the fields and this was even more moving. We then joined in and sang a Mass in the town church before another great reception of champagne and brioche - quite an interesting challenge when one is in charge of 18 girls.

Our students were billeted with families overnight and then next morning we went to Hendecourt and gave another concert - all to packed churches - followed by yet another reception with more champagne!
Lunch was with families before we all headed back to Paris - we will never forget April 25.

Our group had done quite a lot of preparation in terms of studying up the history of these battles, learning the French National Anthem off by heart and preparing other French music.
They had also been in contact with the local RSL and other members of the armed forces who had historical information relevant to the visit and attended and performed at a November 11 service here in order to be familiar with the protocol and this made a big difference. They were also asked to wear small replica 'colours' from a local regiment.

Hope this helps...

Palenque

ANZAC (Australian and New Zealand Army Corps) Day is the anniversary of the landing of troops from Australia and New Zealand on the Gallipoli Peninsula, Turkey, in World War I on April 25, 1915. The bravery of all military personnel who participated in this campaign and the lives of those who died in all military actions are remembered.>

Well thanks for the edification of ANZAC Day and being in France - must have been a special occasion for both the Aussies and the French

love_travel_Aus

It is a special day - and I hope the following information explains why it is France that so many visit -as the date for the French history being Anzac day 1918 - a significant one that is still strong in the minds of the people there:

"In WW1, after the 8 months campaign at Gallipoli, Australian Troops entered the trenches of France and Belgium. Three years later over 52,000 were dead. In 1918, on 24/25 April, Australian Troops recaptured the Village of Villers-Bretonneux, and forced a German withdrawal. The significance of this battle was not lost on our Allies. The troops who retook Villers, were part of the 5 Australian Divisions urgently brought by rail from Belgium to prevent a German breakthrough.

It is significant that in spite of the fierce fighting that Australians faced at places such as Pozieres, Bullecourt, Mont St Quentin, Le Hamel and countless other sites, the major Australian Memorial is at Villers-Bretonneux. The size and solitude of the Memorial is overwhelming. Etched into the walls below the 32m high tower which dominates the area around for a great distance, are the names of over 11,000 Australian soldiers who have no known grave in France.
On 25 April 2010, it is the 92nd Anniversary of the Battle of Amiens, as it is known to the locals in The Somme. There are museums in Villers-Bretonneux, Bullecourt and Peronne that are dedicated to the diggers of WW1. The Victoria School in Villers-Bretonneux carries the sign in English "Do Not Forget Australia".

Sorry if this is getting away from the original thread - just explaining why so many go there.

Palenque

Is it a drama to catch train to Rothenburg and pick up car there though then we miss Wursburg..Does that matter?>

From Frankfurt Airport you do have to change at least 3 times i believe - no real problem but some are sidelines so the going is rather slow - schedules are at www.bahn.de - the Germany rail site.

But i would stay in Frankfurt the day landing or a nearby smaller town like some in the Rhine Gorge and then drive to Rothenburg via the Castle Road - i liked the Castle Road - along the Neckar River Valley dotted by lovely old town - more than the Romantic Road - a much busier highway though the towns on it are sweet.