happymac

Hi all. My wife and I are planning an extended trip (38 days) with our two 6 year olds in Italy from late November through all of December.

I realize it is not the best time of year to travel, but we wanted to pick a time that avoids the traditional tourist season so that we could attempt to immerse ourselves in the local culture. Although we do plan to go to some of the traditional tourist locations, our primary goal is to spend time trying to experience what “normal life” would be like living there full time.

We are entertaining a permanent move to Italy in the coming year, and this trip is designed as sort of a trial run to see if we can handle the culture change. We want to explore the various regions to narrow down the actual area that we would want to call home when the time comes. So, unlike a typical tourist trip we want to spend time in smaller, quieter areas.

From afar, we are very attracted to the Tuscany lifestyle and envision if we move to Italy of owning a farmhouse with some livestock, close to a small town (20,000 to 150,000 people), a place where a slower pace is celebrated and people are inviting of foreigners.

Thinking about the trip, ideally we would pick 4-5 different locales spending 5-10 days in each that have close proximity to a village, but also are a short car ride to the various ‘traditional’ tourist sites in that region. With our 6 year olds in tow, we can’t do too many of the traditional tourist activities, but rather are looking for kid friendly activities. In fact, if the towns have playgrounds or places for the kiddos to burn some energy where local children frequent, this would be an added perk.

In a perfect world, we would rent a farmhouse or outbuilding on someone’s property that have children of their own. Being able to talk to them about moving there and watch the kids interact would be an added perk. Ideally we want a kitchen, since we want to take a stab at shopping and cooking to see how difficult (or easy) it will be to survive there.

Would love some recommendations of cities to see, places to stay, but more importantly cities that are particularly friendly to foreigners (with children). Also, if you have suggestions of actual people to rent from it would be appreciated.

We are a little nervous about being there in December with the colder weather for the kids, but if the weather was particularly bad we would just stay in on those days, again … simulating normal life for us if we were to ultimately move there.

Some other details … We are planning on renting a car for the trip, although it sounds like getting around in some places may be difficult. In places we stay for longer periods, having internet access is really important. Our Italian at this point is VERY rough, although we are working on it every day.

Grazie mille … As we start digging into this undertaking, we are feeling quite overwhelmed. I REALLY appreciate any suggestions you can provide.

Alec

Do you have EU passports? Do you speak fluent Italian? Answers to these questions have a major effect on your forthcoming permanent move.

limmy

The OP already stated their language level.

Jean

I think the passport question is issue #1.

Tuscany might be the most expensive part of Italy to be looking to move to... Have you been there before? What is your vision of "the Tuscany lifestyle"?

Do you have experience operating a farm with livestock? Are you anticipating earning a living from farming or just want to own a country house where you can raise a few head of cattle, lambs, chickens, whatever? If the former, I think most cattle farms are in the north of Italy, not as far south as Tuscany.

nytraveler

Agree - the key questions are:

Do you have the right to move to Italy (EU citizen or ???) or are you going to have to try to get a visa (very difficult)?

Do you have a means of making a living that is readily transferable (and assume you would have the right to work there)?

Never mind your Italian - how much do the kids have? (assuming they will go to school in Italy you don;t want them to start out far behind)

What about your wife's career - can she pick it up there (since kids are now school age assume she will be working as well?)

Or - if you are going to farm seriously - are you experienced with local crops?

mama_mia

The above answers give you an idea of some of the things you will need to think about. You might also check out some of the expat websites to get ideas about how others have made the transition, how it has worked for them, where expats tend to congregate (if that is important to you), etc.

Here is one such site (www.transitionsabroad.com -- the link below will take you directly to the Italy info):
http://tinyurl.com/kyh394k

sarge56

I don't think the OP gave any indication that he/she needed help with passport info/working rights, etc. Surely he/she will ask if they need assistance with that.

happymac, IMHO, you can be happy anywhere in Italy. They love kids and there is plenty of "open space" for all of you.

I would think about what you like to do (are you into art? history? nature?) and consider option based on that. Personally, would not mind living in a "suburb", because I like the green space, but must get my fix for art/history/music, etc.

There are dozens of small villages/towns in Italy. Do you want to be by the beach? In the Tuscan hills? Close to transportation? These are things you should consider.

You do not mention where you currently live. It sounds like possibly someplace that is warm, as you seem concerned about cold weather. If you want to stay "warm", then southern Italy might be a better fit.

If finances are an issue, then you must consider that more "touristy" areas (i.e. Amalfi Coast) would probably be more costly.

Most large cities have perfectly-good internet access, but if you get too far away from "civilization", then you risk not having a reliable source.

I would consider someplace near Florence or one of the larger towns in Tuscany, like Pienza or Siena.

The nice thing is that Italy has a great transportation system and you can catch a train/bus almost anywhere!

Buona fortuna!

PS I think Christmas in Italy would be spectacular!

janisj

>>Surely he/she will ask if they need assistance with that.<<

Maybe / maybe not. We get questions from folks all the time who have no idea there are <i>any</i> restrictions to travel w/i Schengen (or even what sort of animal Schengen is)

sandralist

There is no such thing as an EU passport, and one does a different passport from one's present passport to live in Italy.

I don't know who "we" is, but the people who repeatedly jump into these threads to interrogate posters more often than not supply totally inaccurate information regarding relocation to Europe. OP, beware!

bilboburgler

Is Tuscany really the right place for what you are looking for. I'd think somewhere like Marche might be more appropriate. Can any of our Italian writers give any ideas?

bilboburgler

Sorry, to be clear, the people of Tuscany always seem very hurried to me.

Alec

<I>There is no such thing as an EU passport</I>

True, but it's a convenient shorthand for a passport issued by a member state of the European Union or EEA (which includes Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein). Swiss passport also gives you right to live and work throughout EEA. British passport, as UK has many different categories of citizenship, must state the holder as 'British citizen' to be eligible for EU freedom of movement. Things get more complicated for passports issued by crown dependencies like Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey as they aren't part of EU. Holders of Gibraltarian passport are regarded as British citizens with full EU rights.

bvlenci

You're wise to spend time in Italy in the darker, colder months before deciding to move here. I know several German families who were shocked by their first winter in Le Marche, where I live. They had come here on summer holidays; it's much warmer and sunnier in the summer than it is in most of Germany, but the winters are not very different. They must have imagined some sort of semi-tropical paradise.

Fifteen years ago there were at least half a dozen German families living in or near my town. They bought old farmhouses to renovate, and set about managing vineyards, making wine, and other bucolic activities. Except for one couple, they've all gone back to Germany.

The reasons they left might be useful to you. The main problem was that they missed friends and relatives back in Germany, and never managed to set up social networks here, except with each other, and the only things they really had in common were the nationality and the language. Germany isn't far from Italy and there are cheap direct flights to Munich and Düsseldorf from a local airport. However, it's not the same as having a group of friends with whom you can socialize on a daily basis.

The second reason was the difficulty maintaining any sort of economic activity here. Some thought they could continue their old careers as consultants, with telecommuting and occasional trips to Germany, but they learned that "out of sight, out of mind" is really true. (One was an IT consultant and one was an editor;the others were retired.)

Others learned that farming is really difficult and bureaucratic here. Most small farms are kept going by the fact that the elderly farmers are getting government pensions, and because they manage on very little money. They own their homes and land outright, they pay low taxes, they never take vacations, and they count every penny, knowing exactly how much pasta, milk and flour cost in every shop in town.

Raising any sort of livestock (except poultry and rabbits) is especially difficult, especially for small farmers, because of EU traceability laws. There are cooperatives that help small farmers with the rules and the databases, and also act as brokers for purchases and sales, but most farmers complain that the cooperatives are thieves. (I don't know the right and wrong of it, but I can imagine that someone who isn't fluent in Italian and knowledgeable about the many laws would be at a real disadvantage.)

There are also many, many layers of law and bureaucracy for such things as opening or closing a well or cutting down a tree. We heard an almost incredible story recently from someone who wanted to cut down a tree that was threatening to fall.

The final reason many Germans left is that they were unhappy with the health services here. I myself have found them excellent, but I think they might have been hampered in their communications by the language barrier.

In fact, the language barrier may be at the root of all three problems above. I moved here fifteen years ago when I married my Italian husband. I had several advantages over these German families. Since my husband has lived in this town all his life, I had an instant extended family and circle of friends. My husband speaks little English, so I had no temptation to speak English at home. (I had also studied Italian for two years at the university level before coming here.)

I was able to a certain extent to continue my work here, but I also helped my husband by working in his design studio, and his income was sufficient for both of us.

My husband was invaluable in teaching me how to navigate the medical system, the bureaucracy, and with such practical things as getting a driver's license. (I thought I could just take a written and road test, but it turns out that it would take far longer than just taking a driver's education course along with all the eighteen-year-olds in town.)

Tuscany has a lot more expatriates than other parts of Italy, which can be an advantage, or a disadvantage if you want to get fully integrated. It's also one of the more expensive places to live. You might want to consider Umbria and Le Marche as well. They all have a very similar culture, but life is even more tranquil in Umbria and Le Marche. (In my opinion, Le Marche has the best cuisine of the three!)

In Tuscany, I would suggest staying near Arezzo, perhaps near Sansepolcro. This area is more off the tourist/expat circuit than Pienza and other places mentioned above, and Arezzo is a beautiful small city, with all services and cultural activities.

In Umbria, any place near Perugia would be suitable. Perugia has a good many foreign students and excellent Italian language courses for foreigners. There are some very beautiful towns in the area, including Assisi and Spello. Norcia is famous in all Italy for its salamis, sausages, and all sorts of cured meat.

In Le Marche, the coastal towns have most of the services and cultural activities. I would suggest staying in the hinterlands of one of the towns north of Ancona, to be near the beautiful Renaissance city of Urbino. I especially like the hinterlands of Senigallia, where you can get to both the mountains and the sea in half an hour, and where in many places you can see both at the same time. Senigallia is also my favorite larger town in this area, with a very nice beach and lots of cultural activities, including some for international residents.

I don't think there's a big difference in "openness to foreigners" in different regions of Italy. In many places it will depend on where the foreigner is from. In very rural areas, people may have had little contact with foreigners, but that usually generates curiosity, not hostility.

Most Italians are very open to children of any nationality. Children also learn foreign languages very quickly, so I wouldn't worry about their language abilities too much. Almost every town has a playground, although some are better kept up and more used than others. You can tell that by hanging out at the playground for a bit. Most towns also have their own sports fields and activities for children, such as swimming, skating, volleyball (very big in Italy), and soccer (calcio).

Having lived in two different countries other than my native one, I know that it takes a lot of effort to get integrated into the local culture, no matter how open the people are. I've made a special effort to read in Italian all the books that most Italian kids read in high school, because they are a big part of the common cultural currency. Sending your kids to a local school would help a lot, but you run the risk that they'll start to resist speaking their native language. I've seen that happen in several families. Do you want your kids to go through university in Italy or in your own country (which you've never mentioned)? If so, you'll need to take steps to make sure they stay in touch with their culture and language.

It's a very serious decision, to move your family, including small children, to a different place. Often people dream of moving to avoid dissatisfactions with their own culture, only to find that all cultures have their negative points. There's an Italian proverb that says, "Better the devil you know than the one you don't know."

bvlenci

[[ There is no such thing as an EU passport, and one does a different passport from one's present passport to live in Italy.... the people who repeatedly jump into these threads to interrogate posters more often than not supply totally inaccurate information regarding relocation to Europe. ]]

You seem to have done so yourself, because there's no need to get an Italian passport to live in Italy. You don't even need a passport from an EU country to live here, just permanent residence.

If you decide to become an Italian citizen, which you can choose to do once you're a permanent resident, but which certainly isn't mandatory, you can elect to get an Italian passport. Only Italian citizens, not permanent residents, are entitled to an Italian passport. If you become an Italian citizen and have dual citizenship, you can travel on your original passport as long as you keep renewing it. I have a US and an Italian passport, and I could, if I wished, allow the Italian passport to expire and travel on the US passport. (The US has a law that US citizens must enter the country with a US passport, but Italy has no equivalent law.)

You can become a permanent resident in Italy in many ways. One is to marry an Italian, as I did. Another way is open if you have a passport from another EU country, which is what was meant above by an "EU passport". A third way is to prove that you have enough stable income to support yourself and pay for health insurance. Or you could prove you have an ancestor (up to a certain number of generations back) who was an Italian citizen. Or you could get a job with an employer who's willing to go through the process of certifying that you're not taking the place of a qualified Italian. These are not the only ways, but they're the major paths to permanent Italian residence for people from other developed countries.

If you marry an Italian, you can become a permanent resident in five years. Most of the other ways require a ten-year wait, during which time you have to keep renewing your residence permit (permesso di soggiorno), a very annoying and occasionally expensive process.

happytourist

For a preview of what to expect when moving to Italy, read Jennifer Criswell's book "At Least You're in Tuscany."