Help! Italy & France and Italy-Two Weeks?
Dec 27th, 2014, 08:06 AM
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Help! Italy & France and Italy-Two Weeks?
We are: a budget minded family of 5-6 incl 3 teens trying to tentatively plan a June/July summer '16 trip. We like outdoors, natural beauty, and interesting cultural activities, and would like to focus on that as opposed to a lot of time in museums. We also need to try to avoid hot inland locales as some of us will get cranky 
Looks like arrival in London in late June is probably non-negotiable (trying to use mileage) but cannot afford much time there. I think we can fly open jaw. CT is a MUST because we skipped it on last trip (saw Venice Florence and bit of Tuscany).
We thought to take TGV to Paris for 3 days, then go to either Southern France or northern Italy for a few days then to CT. However the details after that get fuzzy. It looks somewhat long and challenging to get to Genoa from southern France. Is it easier to go Paris to northern Italy and make our way to CT from there?
Looks like arrival in London in late June is probably non-negotiable (trying to use mileage) but cannot afford much time there. I think we can fly open jaw. CT is a MUST because we skipped it on last trip (saw Venice Florence and bit of Tuscany).
We thought to take TGV to Paris for 3 days, then go to either Southern France or northern Italy for a few days then to CT. However the details after that get fuzzy. It looks somewhat long and challenging to get to Genoa from southern France. Is it easier to go Paris to northern Italy and make our way to CT from there?
Dec 27th, 2014, 08:45 AM
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Where do you mean by southern France? The train from Nice to Genoa takes 3+ hours, not bad. You might prefer to stay in some place smaller like Villefranche-sur-Mer, also on the train line.
Be sure to get your tickets early for the Eurostar from London to Paris. Like 3 months ahead of time. The savings is significant.
Also, I'm curious. What do you mean by cultural activities? Since you're excluding museums of all kinds.
Be sure to get your tickets early for the Eurostar from London to Paris. Like 3 months ahead of time. The savings is significant.
Also, I'm curious. What do you mean by cultural activities? Since you're excluding museums of all kinds.
Dec 27th, 2014, 09:30 AM
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Mimar,
Thank you. I will look into your suggestions. Also NOT excluding museums, just not making them as much of a focus on this visit. Kids would enjoy caves, kayaking, castles, towns, towers, gardens, beaches and landmarks. Ideally southern France for us is either the Dordogne region or Provence. Probably the latter I suppose because of limited time and our desire to go into Italy....although I think Dordogne might fit our family better.
Are both Nice and CT in one visit too similar?
Thank you. I will look into your suggestions. Also NOT excluding museums, just not making them as much of a focus on this visit. Kids would enjoy caves, kayaking, castles, towns, towers, gardens, beaches and landmarks. Ideally southern France for us is either the Dordogne region or Provence. Probably the latter I suppose because of limited time and our desire to go into Italy....although I think Dordogne might fit our family better.
Are both Nice and CT in one visit too similar?
Dec 27th, 2014, 09:39 AM
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Have you ever done Switzerland? it takes a tad longer to go by rail from Paris to Italy via Switzerland but if you have not been by all means consider stopping half-way at the Interlaken/Jungfrau Region - to many the absolute highlight of Switzerland - glacier-girdled peaks soaring thousands of feet above lush valleys - mountain trains and toylike gondolas going off in all directions
hiking trails for all experiences
great place for teens - bungy jumping, white water rafting, etc available; can walk to glaciers, etc.
anyway just a thought
No TGVs go from London to Paris but Eurostar 'Chunnel' trains do constantly - www.eurostar.com is the official site and the early birth gets the proverbial worm with deep discounted tickets available if you book way way in advance - just show up and pay $100 or more p.p. more!
anyway for lots of rail ideas and planning a rail trip - seems like you are going by rail - check out these IMO superb sites: www.seat61.com - great info on discounted tickets - Eurostar and those in France to Switzerland and in Italy; www.rickstevees.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download the latter's free online European Planning & Rail Guide for lots of rail itineraries in those countries.
But if you have not been to Switzerland go for the Jungfrau Region, to me and many the absolute highlight of Switzerland - an Alpine wonderland for all ages!
hiking trails for all experiences
great place for teens - bungy jumping, white water rafting, etc available; can walk to glaciers, etc.
anyway just a thought
No TGVs go from London to Paris but Eurostar 'Chunnel' trains do constantly - www.eurostar.com is the official site and the early birth gets the proverbial worm with deep discounted tickets available if you book way way in advance - just show up and pay $100 or more p.p. more!
anyway for lots of rail ideas and planning a rail trip - seems like you are going by rail - check out these IMO superb sites: www.seat61.com - great info on discounted tickets - Eurostar and those in France to Switzerland and in Italy; www.rickstevees.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download the latter's free online European Planning & Rail Guide for lots of rail itineraries in those countries.
But if you have not been to Switzerland go for the Jungfrau Region, to me and many the absolute highlight of Switzerland - an Alpine wonderland for all ages!
Dec 27th, 2014, 09:45 AM
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>>Are both Nice and CT in one visit too similar?<<
Not even close. Nice is a large city with all the large city amenities. CT is a set of 5 scenic "dinky" village with not many amenities other than hiking around, hanging out in the small villages, and noticing all the other US tourists with Rick Steves guidebooks in their pockets. Very scenic, however.
>>Kids would enjoy caves, kayaking, castles, towns, towers, gardens, beaches and landmarks<<
You probably won't do any caves, kayaking, castles, towers, or many gardens around Nice or the CT. Not sure what you mean by "landmarks"?? - a church, Roman ruin (only 1 near Nice).
Will you have a car for any portion of this trip??
With 5-6 people, will you rent an apt in Nice or "wherever" in the "south" so you can prepare your own meals, not pay for daily housekeeping and a hotel staff?
Stu Dudley
Not even close. Nice is a large city with all the large city amenities. CT is a set of 5 scenic "dinky" village with not many amenities other than hiking around, hanging out in the small villages, and noticing all the other US tourists with Rick Steves guidebooks in their pockets. Very scenic, however.
>>Kids would enjoy caves, kayaking, castles, towns, towers, gardens, beaches and landmarks<<
You probably won't do any caves, kayaking, castles, towers, or many gardens around Nice or the CT. Not sure what you mean by "landmarks"?? - a church, Roman ruin (only 1 near Nice).
Will you have a car for any portion of this trip??
With 5-6 people, will you rent an apt in Nice or "wherever" in the "south" so you can prepare your own meals, not pay for daily housekeeping and a hotel staff?
Stu Dudley
Dec 27th, 2014, 10:07 AM
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Having returned from the CT this past summer, it is nice, but not as nice for our taste as Lake Como. I wonder if your teens might enjoy that more? We kayaked, hiked, and very much enjoyed our time on Lake Como, which wasn't far from Milan (and Milan was easy to get to from Paris).
We stayed in Portovenere during our visit to CT (because it was more affordable), and we enjoyed our time there as much if not more than our time in the CT towns. Only word of caution is that Portovenere is not directly on the train line, which requires a bus ride to LaSpezia or a ferry ride to the CT towns (which is pricey).
And I second the apartment advice-it has been a wonderful way to travel for us, and more affordable as well.
It sounds like a fun trip, no matter where you end up!
We stayed in Portovenere during our visit to CT (because it was more affordable), and we enjoyed our time there as much if not more than our time in the CT towns. Only word of caution is that Portovenere is not directly on the train line, which requires a bus ride to LaSpezia or a ferry ride to the CT towns (which is pricey).
And I second the apartment advice-it has been a wonderful way to travel for us, and more affordable as well.
It sounds like a fun trip, no matter where you end up!
Dec 27th, 2014, 11:12 AM
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If you are not enthused about spending time in London, why not just continue on to Genova or Pisa by plane? If you are concerned to book a flight leaving later in the same day of your arrival, try picking an interesting place to spend a night near one of the airports with flights departing for Genova or Pisa.
If you end up deciding to transit through Paris, you can get a train from Paris to Torino, and switch to trains to the Italian Riviera from there. But just generally speaking, no matter how you slice it, train travel to le Cinque Terre is pokey, and the trains are old and creaky and often hot and dirty -- so if some in your group are prone to crankiness, the simplest route is to get yourself to Pisa the cheapest fly you can buy and take the short train ride north from there.
If you end up deciding to transit through Paris, you can get a train from Paris to Torino, and switch to trains to the Italian Riviera from there. But just generally speaking, no matter how you slice it, train travel to le Cinque Terre is pokey, and the trains are old and creaky and often hot and dirty -- so if some in your group are prone to crankiness, the simplest route is to get yourself to Pisa the cheapest fly you can buy and take the short train ride north from there.
Dec 27th, 2014, 11:16 AM
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Just for another perspective: If I were traveling with teens in summer I would take the to le Cinque Terre rather than Lago di Como, so they could swim in the sea, and just generally it is more fun for the young, I think. Personally I would take them a few towns north of the CT on the coast -- to Sestri Levante, because I think it is more fun and the swimming is better, and it is overall cheaper than the CT. You can take a train from Sestri Levante to le Cinque Terre for hikes.
Dec 27th, 2014, 11:20 AM
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or2nh4me2 - Hello! Aix en Provence is beautiful in itself and surrounded by other areas you can explore using Provence as your home base. Toulon is just south a bit, the drive along the french riviera (sun, beaches!) is just...wow. I'd have loved that as a teenager!! Train might be tricky from Provence, but I'm sure it can be done with connections I'm just not familiar with. I was 15 the first time I visited Nice, and although beautiful country, I agree with StuDudley that if you're after a more "outdoorsy" trip, you might look a bit more. The Vieille Ville is really cool - kindof open market - the historic part of Nice. Oh also, Mimar is dead-on about the cost savings from London-Paris! The trip is easy, however!!
PalenQ - I've seen you post about the Jungfrau region before and have a side question. Have you ever taken the scenic trains through Switzerland? GoldenPass, Glacier Express, or the like? If you have, do you have any thoughts on those? I'll be there for 2 weeks this summer and am trying to decide if it's worth the time or if I'll see similar things with just my train travel from one city to another...? Your posts about the Jungfrau Region have made me rethink the whole trip! Incredible!!
PalenQ - I've seen you post about the Jungfrau region before and have a side question. Have you ever taken the scenic trains through Switzerland? GoldenPass, Glacier Express, or the like? If you have, do you have any thoughts on those? I'll be there for 2 weeks this summer and am trying to decide if it's worth the time or if I'll see similar things with just my train travel from one city to another...? Your posts about the Jungfrau Region have made me rethink the whole trip! Incredible!!
Dec 27th, 2014, 11:21 AM
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Somebody above wrote:
>>You probably won't do any caves, kayaking, castles, towers, or many gardens around Nice or the CT. Not sure what you mean by "landmarks"?? - a church, Roman ruin (only 1 near Nice).<<
I'm quite surprised by this, since I live on the Riviera, where many people go kayaking (especially around Le Cinque Terre), there are quite a few castles and ditto towers all along the coast near CT (practically one in every town of any size), and there are many gardens near the French-Italian border. Probably the best "landmark" near le Cinque Terre is the leaning tower of Pisa if you've yet to see it, but there are other sights of historic interest from all centuries and epochs.
>>You probably won't do any caves, kayaking, castles, towers, or many gardens around Nice or the CT. Not sure what you mean by "landmarks"?? - a church, Roman ruin (only 1 near Nice).<<
I'm quite surprised by this, since I live on the Riviera, where many people go kayaking (especially around Le Cinque Terre), there are quite a few castles and ditto towers all along the coast near CT (practically one in every town of any size), and there are many gardens near the French-Italian border. Probably the best "landmark" near le Cinque Terre is the leaning tower of Pisa if you've yet to see it, but there are other sights of historic interest from all centuries and epochs.
Dec 27th, 2014, 11:24 AM
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Dec 27th, 2014, 11:27 AM
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Dec 27th, 2014, 02:48 PM
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Further clarification:
Kayaking.
The OP was considering going to the Dordogne. Kyaking on the Dordogne is a "walk in the park". All you do is get in the kayak, paddle a little, and let the river provide most of the forward movement. When we did it, I paddled and my wife sat in the front of the kayak and took pictures of Beynac, Roque Gageac, and the many castles we passed by. There were many first-times who tipped the boat - but the water was only about 4ft deep.
Sea kayaking in the CT is completely different - although I never tried it when we visited. There are steep/jagged cliffs at water's edge, and when we were there, some wave action got us & everyone else "soaked" when we were climbing around some castle ruins in one of the towns. Personally, I would not want any relative of mine kayaking in this area unless there were at least two experienced sea kayakers (for the "Buddie system") and everyone in the group are "risk takers" (you're half a world from home, if serious "problems" occur). I suppose that they could just stay within 100 meters of the sand beach at Monterosso - but that wouldn't be to exciting, IMO.
In Nice, I didn't see many people kayaking (we've spent 20 weeks on the Cote d'Azur)
Caves.
The OP did not mention renting a car while on the Cote d'Azur. Balzi Rossi Caves is a 50 min drive from Nice. They could, however, take a train to Ventimiglia and then a bus from there to the caves - and then back. The caves are not mentioned in the Michelin Green Guide (which is the travel book series I use) for Italy. There are dozens of Michelin starred caves in the Dordogne region (I assume they would have a car in the Dordogne). Personally, I would not want to spend an entire day getting to & from a cave that's not even mentioned in the guide book I use.
That's why I said that the OP "probably won't" visit any caves in the Nice area or CT.
Castles
My wife & I are castle "junkies". We've visited hundreds of them (we spend 2 months in Europe every year). We've never visited a castle in Nice. The castle atop the cliff in Nice is a ruin - which isn't that interesting. The one in the CT (forgot which town) is kind of a ruin also and really not that interesting either. There are some castles/mansions that we've "viewed from the distance" - but haven't visited because they're not open to "normal" visitors/public.
Gardens
There are many gardens in the Dordogne. The only one we have visited in Nice is Villa Ephrussi de Rothchild (I don't consider the manor house to be a "typical" castle). It's quite remarkable, but getting to it by car takes some doing. We visited it by car the first time, and by bus this year. However, it take some "studying" to figure out how to get there by bus. We didn't attempt the bus system the first 8 times we visited Nice. There is a cactus garden in Eze - but that takes some "doing" to get to by bus. We didn't see any gardens on the CT. That's why I stated the OP "probably won't" visit any gardens in Nice or the CT.
Towers.
I'm not sure what the OP means by towers. When I read about a tower in the Michelin guide, it's usually either a donjon, bell tower, or a church tower. I have not climbed up any "towers" in Nice or the CT. I'm sure there are church towers everywhere - but not sure they are "accessible" to me. The tower in Pisa is a bit away from the CT and the OP doesn't have a car. A train probably gets you there - but that seems like a separate day-trip to me (OP never mentioned it).
Stu Dudley
Kayaking.
The OP was considering going to the Dordogne. Kyaking on the Dordogne is a "walk in the park". All you do is get in the kayak, paddle a little, and let the river provide most of the forward movement. When we did it, I paddled and my wife sat in the front of the kayak and took pictures of Beynac, Roque Gageac, and the many castles we passed by. There were many first-times who tipped the boat - but the water was only about 4ft deep.
Sea kayaking in the CT is completely different - although I never tried it when we visited. There are steep/jagged cliffs at water's edge, and when we were there, some wave action got us & everyone else "soaked" when we were climbing around some castle ruins in one of the towns. Personally, I would not want any relative of mine kayaking in this area unless there were at least two experienced sea kayakers (for the "Buddie system") and everyone in the group are "risk takers" (you're half a world from home, if serious "problems" occur). I suppose that they could just stay within 100 meters of the sand beach at Monterosso - but that wouldn't be to exciting, IMO.
In Nice, I didn't see many people kayaking (we've spent 20 weeks on the Cote d'Azur)
Caves.
The OP did not mention renting a car while on the Cote d'Azur. Balzi Rossi Caves is a 50 min drive from Nice. They could, however, take a train to Ventimiglia and then a bus from there to the caves - and then back. The caves are not mentioned in the Michelin Green Guide (which is the travel book series I use) for Italy. There are dozens of Michelin starred caves in the Dordogne region (I assume they would have a car in the Dordogne). Personally, I would not want to spend an entire day getting to & from a cave that's not even mentioned in the guide book I use.
That's why I said that the OP "probably won't" visit any caves in the Nice area or CT.
Castles
My wife & I are castle "junkies". We've visited hundreds of them (we spend 2 months in Europe every year). We've never visited a castle in Nice. The castle atop the cliff in Nice is a ruin - which isn't that interesting. The one in the CT (forgot which town) is kind of a ruin also and really not that interesting either. There are some castles/mansions that we've "viewed from the distance" - but haven't visited because they're not open to "normal" visitors/public.
Gardens
There are many gardens in the Dordogne. The only one we have visited in Nice is Villa Ephrussi de Rothchild (I don't consider the manor house to be a "typical" castle). It's quite remarkable, but getting to it by car takes some doing. We visited it by car the first time, and by bus this year. However, it take some "studying" to figure out how to get there by bus. We didn't attempt the bus system the first 8 times we visited Nice. There is a cactus garden in Eze - but that takes some "doing" to get to by bus. We didn't see any gardens on the CT. That's why I stated the OP "probably won't" visit any gardens in Nice or the CT.
Towers.
I'm not sure what the OP means by towers. When I read about a tower in the Michelin guide, it's usually either a donjon, bell tower, or a church tower. I have not climbed up any "towers" in Nice or the CT. I'm sure there are church towers everywhere - but not sure they are "accessible" to me. The tower in Pisa is a bit away from the CT and the OP doesn't have a car. A train probably gets you there - but that seems like a separate day-trip to me (OP never mentioned it).
Stu Dudley
Dec 27th, 2014, 05:06 PM
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Stu,
I guess your post is very revealing about you but it doesn't accurately portray what's available to enjoy on the Riviera if someone isn't you. The OP is traveling with teens who might enjoy these things, so it is worth pointing out they are, in fact, available.
It is not dangerous to go kayaking around the CT, and Pisa is an hour by train from the CT. While I don't suggest making a project of stopping at all the many other towers along the coast, just so everybody knows, it was a longstanding custom in that part of the world to build towers not only as defensive lookouts against pirates, but also as a display of wealth, so they are all over the coast. Genoa and Albenga have the most impressive ones still standing in Liguria, but you can spot them everywhere.
I don't think the Michelin guide is the end-all be-all for the Italian Riviera, or even Italy -- many other guides are much better. Even just using the internet you can learn about castles near the CT and easy to get to by train for ferry in Portovenere, Lerici, Portofino or Sarzana. These are not Sleeping Beauty fairy tale castles but they are not ruins either. They have shark teeth turrets and battlements, etc, and they are very clearly castles. They are mostly used today to host exhibits or as small museums.
I forgot to mention the highly valued historic Hanbury gardens just an hour from Nice in Italy. Not that I think the OP should take time away from the CT to see them but because it is just so ridiculous to read that unless something is listed in the Michelin guide it's not going to be interesting to anybody or their kids.
I guess your post is very revealing about you but it doesn't accurately portray what's available to enjoy on the Riviera if someone isn't you. The OP is traveling with teens who might enjoy these things, so it is worth pointing out they are, in fact, available.
It is not dangerous to go kayaking around the CT, and Pisa is an hour by train from the CT. While I don't suggest making a project of stopping at all the many other towers along the coast, just so everybody knows, it was a longstanding custom in that part of the world to build towers not only as defensive lookouts against pirates, but also as a display of wealth, so they are all over the coast. Genoa and Albenga have the most impressive ones still standing in Liguria, but you can spot them everywhere.
I don't think the Michelin guide is the end-all be-all for the Italian Riviera, or even Italy -- many other guides are much better. Even just using the internet you can learn about castles near the CT and easy to get to by train for ferry in Portovenere, Lerici, Portofino or Sarzana. These are not Sleeping Beauty fairy tale castles but they are not ruins either. They have shark teeth turrets and battlements, etc, and they are very clearly castles. They are mostly used today to host exhibits or as small museums.
I forgot to mention the highly valued historic Hanbury gardens just an hour from Nice in Italy. Not that I think the OP should take time away from the CT to see them but because it is just so ridiculous to read that unless something is listed in the Michelin guide it's not going to be interesting to anybody or their kids.
Dec 28th, 2014, 07:01 AM
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Nice and CT are not even vague similar.
Nice is a large, ancient (yes, Roman and even earlier) city with all the amenities and activities of such a place plus a host of sights and easy access to hill towns, many museums, and a host of towns along the coast of France.
The CT are 5 tiny towns cut into the side of cliffs with hiking trails between them. Period. Not much else to do or see/except relax and look at the water.
I think you need to define what you are looing for.
Nice is a large, ancient (yes, Roman and even earlier) city with all the amenities and activities of such a place plus a host of sights and easy access to hill towns, many museums, and a host of towns along the coast of France.
The CT are 5 tiny towns cut into the side of cliffs with hiking trails between them. Period. Not much else to do or see/except relax and look at the water.
I think you need to define what you are looing for.
Dec 28th, 2014, 01:15 PM
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I love the idea of Switzerland and I know my family does as well. Any suggestions on how to keep the expenses down?>
Well yes Switzerland can be really expensive though with the Swiss franc at a recent years low of about 1 to $ it will not be as dear as before - if you want to stay in Grindelwald or Interlaken these two places have some of the cheapest lodging in Switzerland - comparable to any country it seems on the low end - other Swiss areas are much more expensive IME. Check the usual hotel discount sites for Interlaken and Grindelwald - not sure how old the teens are but if old enough they may like to stay in a youth hostel where there will be plenty of folks there age - hostels even have family rooms these days but not everyone wants to stay in a hostel - check out the Nature Friend's House in Grindelwald - a hostel type accommodation for all ages - lots of older hikers in summer when I stayed there - a common room for cooking but private rooms.
Well yes Switzerland can be really expensive though with the Swiss franc at a recent years low of about 1 to $ it will not be as dear as before - if you want to stay in Grindelwald or Interlaken these two places have some of the cheapest lodging in Switzerland - comparable to any country it seems on the low end - other Swiss areas are much more expensive IME. Check the usual hotel discount sites for Interlaken and Grindelwald - not sure how old the teens are but if old enough they may like to stay in a youth hostel where there will be plenty of folks there age - hostels even have family rooms these days but not everyone wants to stay in a hostel - check out the Nature Friend's House in Grindelwald - a hostel type accommodation for all ages - lots of older hikers in summer when I stayed there - a common room for cooking but private rooms.
