Great food-Not so great biz practices in San Seb

Did you find this recommended in one of Maribel's guides?

I learned about the the special menu at the restaurant thru one of Maribel's posts on a thread by someone going to San Seb and asking for restaurant recommendations. I imagine it's one of the recommended restaurants in her guide, but don't remember offhand.

You have been to a restaurant in Spain. You can expect that they have menus in Spanish (and in Basque). You cannot expect that they have menus in English.

It is a special service if a restaurant offers a translated menu for English-speaking guests. It is very plausible that they have a translation for their à-la-carte dishes only, because they simply do not have the capacity for translating the daily changing degustation menu.

It has nothing to do with "deceiving". And I cannot see that their their business practices left a bit to be desired. For me, what they did it absolutely normal.

You cannot expect that everywhere in this world everyone speaks English. Their native language is Basque and they speak Spanish as a second language and probably French as a third language. And you expect them to speak English too. How many languages do you speak?

I do not complain about a restaurant in New York that has no menu in French or German. It is part of travelling experience that you have to deal with other languages.

And after all, you have got a fabulous meal.

And usually, I am very skeptical about restaurants that post menus in English.

BTW, "San Seb" is another sign of arrogance. The natives call the city "Donostia".

Oh my. I totally understand the OP. If, when given the a la carte menus, Spaniards are not informed of or given the menu of the day, ( regardless of the language) then.. it IS deceitful. I doubt they print up the menu of the day there if it was written on a board.

But I think a place of this caliber probably figures if you want the menu of the day, you will ask for it.

Many times we are given the normal menu, and have to request the menu of the day.

I woudn't be so hard on the OP.

The dynamic currency thing looks like it has come this way now, too, in full swing, as I check out the Spain posts.

I meant to say " Spaniards ARE" given the menu of the day.. sorry.

Kotoxa is also recommended in Maribel's PDF guides, not just her Fodor's posts.

In general, I think it is mistake to go the restaurants recommended in Maribel's guides in lieu of sallying forth and eating pintxos in San Sebastian, but people have different tastes.

Echnaton - Not sure why u see my post as arrogant. I never expected nor asked for a menu in English. It was handed to us. I certainly understand and don't ever expect restaurants in any country to have menus in English or speak English and it doesn't matter to me if they do or don't. Actually as I travel even in small towns or villages I am always amazed at how many people have some smattering of English and admire the fact that they do. I'm well aware that the natives refer to the town as Donostia, but this board is not really directed at natives of Donostia, is it?

Just to be picky: Natives refer to their city as San Sebastián quite as often as Donostia, but they will all call themselves donostiarras. Basque (euskara) is first language for just a minority of people in the region. Has been a revival of euskara in the past years through the Ikastolas (primary and secondary schools) and universities, but the basque language has not by far got the standing as for example catalan in Catalunya. In San Sebastián the vast majority speak Spanish as their first language and many would only have rudimentary if any knowledge of basque.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Basque_as_first_language(corrected).JPG

I am with you on the "dynamic currency conversion." The same thing happened to me when I was in Italy two weeks ago. Twice, at the better properties I stayed at, I was given the hard sell to pay the bill in USD. It is a total rip off, combination of bad exchange rate and 3% "conveiniece fee."

It would have been OK if the proprieters had just offered the option and let it go after I declined, but they both started arguing with me about it. In one of the instances, after I told the lady I wanted to pay in euros she still rang it up in USD. I had to wait while she reversed the charge and resubmitted in euros (as she grumbled the whole time.) What a scam-- be on the look out for this.

The special degustation menu offered by Kokotxa, and nearly every other restaurant in Spain, is designed for the businessmen/women who frequent the place during the week. It’s an incentive for them to return in the evening or on the weekend for lunch or dinner when the menu is not offered. This menu is not a moneymaker for any restaurante, but something that began when the recession set in and is a sample of the chef's top cuisine. We take advantage of it at times, but not all of the time, not when you want to support a great restaurant, or even an average one.

Being offered the "opportunity" to pay in USD has become quite common and driven by the credit card companies and the banks, not the restaurants or other merchants, except perhaps El Corte Inglés. When opting for the less expensive menu the least you could do is consider paying for your meal in cash. This would save the restaurant owner the cost of dealing with the credit card companies and banks, which tag on fees at both ends of the transaction. Many smaller merchants, especially restaurants and mom and pop stores, have to wait weeks before they see the funds deposited into their accounts, which is one reason when we ask for the menu del día, we always pay in cash. Pick up the cash at the nearest ATM before going to lunch, but I would advise avoiding any ATM belonging to the Bank of Santander.
eason when we do the menu del dia, we always pay in cash.

I have one question krgystn. Did you argue with them in Spanish, Euskara, French or English? The chef is not fluent in English, neither is his wife, who would have been the woman you referred to.

Robert2533 - Reading krgystn's post I believe she was referring to a place in Italy that was not named. U can save your lectures on cash versus credit cards 4 someone who doesn't understand the inner workings of a small business, thank u very much.

The special degustation menu for 45EUR. is something completely different to the Menú del día (menú of the day), which is usually 8 to 12 eur, and is the one intended for businessmen or workers who have to lunch out daily.

I tell you a little story.

Recently, we travelled to the USA and had dinner in a restaurant. Food was great, but their business practices left a bit to be desired.

First, we ordered a menu with wine pairings. The menu said "Champagne with the first course". But we did not get Champagne, we just got a sparkling wine from California.

Second, we ordered Coca-Cola for the kids. The kids were served glasses which were filled with ice and just a little amount of Coca-Cola. They charged a pretty steep price for a drink that consisted mostly of crushed ice!

Third, I ordered Rocky Mountain oysters. However, I was not served oysters but something different...

Fourth, when we were handed the check, there was an unpleasant surprise. The menu listed clear prices, but the total bill added 8% sales tax and 18% service charge. So, the final sum was 26% higher than the figures on the menu!

Conclusion: The restaurant deliberately deceives its customers, as least those from Europe.

You get the message?

Really friends- sometimes reading responses I wonder if the poster is writing just to be rude, pompous or put someone down, rather than convey useful information or politely express an opinion. As you would have people err on the side of local citizens, perhaps it would be good to err on the assumption that OPs understand that they are reporting only on their own experiences and observations, without intended malice. A little civility more would add to the charm of the board.

Echnaton,

Your description is of naive travelers. The ones posting are not naive. We understand things are done differently in different places.

The menu thing is par. These things happen. I feel sorry for you if you don't go anywhere with English menus, as they are becoming much more common even in non-tourist places. My experience has been that they see I speak English, and give me the menu without me asking. This is the OP's experience. They did not EXPECT an English menu.

But the dynamic currency thing is a complete rip off. I would not return to a place that even offered it, and I'd tell them so. This has nothing to do with the scenario you described for us.

So, no, your message is lost in translation.

OP wrote that the restaurant "deliberately deceive its customers", just because they did not have the degustation menu translated to English. I consider this pretty malicious. In fact, it is trade libel, and under European law, this post would be considered a felony.

Lounge etiquette requires to choose your words a little more carefully.

The intent of my post was not to be malcious or libelous. traveller1959, u left out a portion of my statement. I wrote "that appeared to deliberately deceive" -- my impression - it was an observation not an unequivocal statement. I did not state that the degustation menu should have been translated into English. I said that it was not offered to us and the reason given was that it was not in English. If u r going to make accusations, please quote accurately and chose your words a little more carefully.

ilana25841 & christycruz, thanks for appearing to understand my post.

Why on earth is everyone being so critical of this post? Apart from the fact that Robert clearly has a reading comprehension problem, I don't understand what's not clear about how these two incidents at the restaurant didn't appear to be deceptive.

OK, I guess it's somewhat understandable that the degustation menu wasn't offered because the patrons figured the clients were English speakers and might not understand it (though that menu presumably was considerably more expensive than the menu del dia - and as a business owner it would be instinctual to me to at least try to interest clients in the more expensive menu), but I never like it when I'm handed an English menu just because of someone's assumptions. And the dynamic currency bit is just unacceptable (becoming more common, yes, but that doesn't make it OK).

st. Cirq - you got there before me.

I don't necessarily want menus to be translated into english, but i do want to be offered them! this is supposed to be a service industry after all - and it's them serving us, not vice versa. sometimes I get the distinct impression that restauranters and hoteliers think that they are doing US a favour.

"restauranters and hoteliers think that they are doing US a favour". Yes, they are doing you a favor! In some places they may be considered part of the service industry, but most restaurants and hotels in Spain, even the larger ones, are family owned and they are welcoming you to join them, regardless of where you’re from.

A reading comprehension problem! Probably at times reading some of what passes for unbiased comments or diatribes, but in that case, did krgystn argue with them in English or Italian?

"but I never like it when I'm handed an English menu just because of someone's assumptions". Good point! It's a common occurrence, and speaks well of the restaurateur. At least they are trying to make you feel comfortable, but then you can always politely ask for a menu in Spanish.

If they're doing me a favor by welcoming me as their guest how come they charge me?

How about this posting of yours?
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/maribels-guides-the-best.cfm
So you found this restaurant via one of her guides, but reading the above posting adds to some confusion. Is it the best guide or are there errors?

You're absolutely right. Great catch. Shame on Maribel for suggesting a meal described by the OP as:
"absolutely delicious perhaps the best we had in Spain". Why wasn't Maribel there to describe the degustacion and maybe even pay the bill in euro?!

What kind of credit card system will accept other currencies? I have accepted credit cards in Seattle for 25 yrs. If its a Japanese credit card it is in dollars regardless. The cardholder pays the conversion fee.I will except Euros at the daily rate - no more. I don't make extra money on the transaction.I am paid the next day by Visa/Mastercard - Amex 3-5 days. Banks don't run V / MC. I am in a "service business"- retail wine. I try to treat my customers as "customers/friends" If I want them to come back I treat them with respect.I find my tourist customers always interesting and I am curious, asking them questions. Sounds like a misunderstanding - thats it.It sometimes it seems some people are showing their prejudices/anger.

Fred--google "Dynamic Currency Conversion." For starters you can look at:
http://moneyning.com/credit-cards/dynamic-currency-conversion-and-other-overseas-credit-card-usage-gibberish

Ak! Dynamic Currency Conversion is real and should be avoided! It's even mentioned in a Fodor travel blog. See #5 http://www.fodors.com/news/story_1935.html

If you've never heard of such a thing, perhaps you're better off not giving your opinion until you've at least done a google search.

Is everyone off their rocker today??

Marija, exactly. It is a scam pure and simple. It has nothing to do with a language barrier.

ribeirasacra - there was no incorrect info in Maribel's post or in her guide about this restaurant. We had an outstanding meal at a good value and that is pretty much what she said. We may have found the restaurant in other ways, but I doubt we would have learned of the special price for the degustacion lunch menu. So yes, for us, we found her guide to be incredibly useful.

FREDMADCEL -- I'm not sure I completely understand your post. The process that is used in some establishments in Europe is called dynamic currency conversion (dcc). Here's an article about it
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/29/AR2005072900927.html
In any case I applaud you for your treatment of your customers.

Maybe I am ignorant but Visa / Mastercard is insidious - be very careful and ask your bank.We are headed to San Sebastian in late June I will be very careful.We travel every year and find few cheats.I hope the merchants / restaurants are very aware of the long term effect of taking advantage of their patrons - its a smaller world you know.I am looking forward to being there FA

Fred -- just be careful with the credit card receipts before you sign. All of the ones which used DCC had the € price and then below it the USD conversion. Beneath that was a statement that by signing you accepted the rate. It did not happen with all transactions, but with some. Enjoy San Seb--its a lovely city with fabulous food.

yestravel-

I don't think your experience is unique to this restaurant nor do I think the restaurant was tryint to deceive you. I've often found the "special" menu's not available in the english menu because it was not translated. I never felt this was an attempt to trick me however.

By the way the regular set lunch menu at Kokotxa is 25 euros.

CathyM-you're right the meal was 25€ each, my mistake. And perhaps u r also right that this is common. It was the only place we experienced not being told about the degustation menu. Sometimes it was attached on the menu (Spanish or English one) and other times the waitstaff mentioned it. I also think what struck me was the two things together. Had just one happened, I may have had a different reaction.

I'm currently in Barcelona, and have seen a couple of restaurants with bi- or x-lingual menus, but the "specials" only written in Catalan or Castilian on a blackboard near the entrance or somewhere else.
I also know this custom from my home country where the menus are printed in 2 or more languages but not the daily changing specials.
I never thought this was something exciting.

I also know this custom from my home country where the menus are printed in 2 or more languages but not the daily changing specials.
I never thought this was something exciting.>>

not exciting Cowboy, but irritating when the restaurant automatically offers the printed menu only, and fails to offer the specials. that, added to the attempt to use dynamic currency conversion, understandably left a bad taste in the mouth of the OP.

Hey, c´mon you rich Americans (all Americans are rich, right?), you´ve come to probably the best place in the western world for eating (Basque country), you are paying a fraction of what this meal would cost in any other European country for the quality you are receiving, and what if the owner offers you an English menu? I´m Basque and in most restaurants I get the à la carte menu first, and then I ask for the daily or special menu...and yes, ALL of them (99%) have one!! So just sit down, relax and enjoy the experience!! In the end, that´s why you´ve come here, isn´t it?

What I've learned from this thread -- u need to ask for any special degustation menus or even menus of the day. In reading all the responses I gather that it is common not to be offered it esp if you are an English speaking person. I agree with mikelg in that we did have a fabulous meal for a great price and we certainlly were relaxed and enjoyed every second and morsel of the experience.

mikelg -- thanks for all your tips on Bilbao and the area. U answered many of my questions early on when I started planning this trip. We used so many of your suggestions and I loved Bilbao...what a fabulous city!

nice ending

Yes nice. Thank you for that.

Mikel,
Any recommendations for a late lunch around Zeanuri on the 28th?

Robert...are you not using Maribel's wonderful guides?

echnaton just for info. what did you expect when you ordered rocky mountain oysters?????? what were you served???? around here in the usa we consider the name just another alternative to ordering bulls balls(testicles) perhaps you ran afoul in what you asked for

We found the service and arrogance in Spain ABSOLUTELY shocking. Where ever we went, we found the food to be totally substandard. We found San Sebastian to be well below our expectations. Tapas in most bars/restaurants consisited of preprepared deep fried food that was nearly past it's used by date! Disgusting. And guess what.....we won't be going back or recommending it to anyone as a tourist destination. With the current 20% unemployment, we found Spaniards in general to be very down on the world. Especially down on tourists. And I must mention the fact that being an English speaking tourist certainly doesn't help. We were told in plain English!!!! that we couldn't be served in a restaurant in Zaragoza because we were English - too bad we're Australian! We loved visiting Spain itself, but I can honestly say that I've made better tapas here at home and I've been totally put off Spain because of it's ignorant, arrogant and chippy people. Honesty and trust was also a problem.......I'll say no more.

This thread ended with yestravel on Jun 6, 10 at 4:16pm

Ronael

We have been traveling to Spain since 1972 and have never had the problems you have had. In fact, I do not remember having many fried tapas in San Sebastian at all.

Were the menus in German? Were the daily specials in German? If not, why not? Spain has a tremendous amount of German speaking tourists too.

And what about the Russians?

I still sniff arrogance in the air. There is not usually enough qualified staff to translate menus into English on a daily basis.

That's what dictionaries are for.

OP was not looking for the degustation menu to be in English. The OP simply wished to be given the menu upon request, expecting to need to translate on his or her own (perhaps with a dictionary.)

"We replied that we preferred it and they brought us the degustation menu."

Thanks for clarifying jubilada. The above sentence from the original post was not entirely clear.

Aduchamp1 - deep fried (think potato covered in breadcrumbs!), festering, poor quality and VERY ordinary tapas is a VERY real thing in many, many bars & restaurants in San Sebastian & many other places in the region. Rude service, poor attitudes and a dislike of tourists is also VERY real. We spent enough time there over the winter to realise that we were wasting our precious travel time. I've had better quality food AND service in a third world country! We ended up cutting our trip short in Spain because of all of the things I have mentioned. Lovely scenery and an interesting history was overshadowed by crappy food and rude people. Spain is a beautiful place, but I'm concerned that the current custodians are adding to the current economic downfall by their lack of enthusiasm and slack attitudes towards tourists. Everyone knows that there's money to be made in tourism......get with it Spain!

I got in trouble on another thread for saying how deplorable it is that many Americans on this forum can't seem to spell and use correct grammar in their native language. It seems on this thread that many of them expect more of people in other countries than they expect of themselves when they want to be catered to in restaurants.

Roneal

Of course, I have encountered stupid Spaniards here and there but not as a national trait. And in San Sebastian, the tapas places we visited had tiers of tapas with different varieties both in the old section of town and others.

To me San Sebastian has the best food in all of Spain and we have visted every region, some many times, save Valenica.

I think tourist should learn that what is rude to one nation is not rude in another. What is bad service in one country is not in another. Learn to accept this and you will become a better traveller. I have to accept your critique is part of your everyday life.

I assume that Ronael will not be back to visit Spain again.

Roneal, your post sounds to the grouch of a tacky social-climber-jailbird marooned in the other side of Earth

I have been in Spain some 25 times, and just got back again from Barcelona, but I still have to find that Spain which Roneal experienced.

Rude?
A waiter is a waiter and not some clown engaged for the entertainment of the customers. Some waiters may be more chatty than others, but I would not judge a more silent waiter as rude. Actually, I prefer the latter.

Ignorant? Arrogant? Chippy?
I simply lack the imagination what that is supposed to mean. Even in areas where there were few to no tourists (but me), I experienced helpful and friendly people. I'm not so naive to take my anecdotal experiences as proof to believe that there are no unfriendly people in Spain, but you find those everywhere you go.

Honesty and trust?
Well, the only time I got scammed in Spain was by a fellow German, probably an ex-pat.

Based on the description of the cuisine, service and general nature of the locals, I double seriously that Roneal has ever set foot in Spain, let alone the Basque country.

That should be doubt seriously!

Yes Robert, there are at least a couple of fine places not far from Zeanuri for a late lunch, I´ll come back to you later.

Yestravel, it was a pleasure, I´m so glad you liked Bilbao!

We await your recommendations. See you in Bilbao!

Four weeks in Winter 2010 were spent by our family in Northern Spain. What I posted is OUR - yes OUR experience......in answer to your remarks Robert2533 + Revulogo. All too often, people paint a glowing picture of somewhere that is simply over exaggerated. The wonderful thing about these forums is that honest accounts of personal experiences can be shared. And you take from it what you wish. We arrived in Barcelona and then hired a car and our family drove from there along the bottom of the Pyrenees via Zaragoza, Pamplona to San Sebastian (Donastia! To be respectful!). This was done over a 4 week period. We are a hardworking, culturally accepting, certainly not demanding or 'social climbing' (where would that remark have come from?? harsh....) basic - 2 backpacks for 4 months travelling family (many nights spent in backpackers and even in a car on the side of the road!!!) Through the heart of the Basque country. From there we drove to Bilbao, and then onto Madrid. We took the good with the bad on our 4 month trip through Europe. My opinion certainly counts. I have mentioned just a VERY small part of the what we, as a family, experienced in Spain....and to be honest, I'm battling to find something positive to say about the food we had there or the people we came across in restaurants/cafes or any of the other service providers - the scenery, the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao, and the stroll down la Ramblas along with the tandem bike ride we did along the Beach in Barcelona would be worth mentioning as a positive. But the food in each of these places was terrible and the people in the service/tourist industry were RUDE, ignorant, down on the world and on MANY occasions we experienced dishonesty with the final bill. In markets what you saw was not always what you got - the stall holders always showed their best produce, but put less quality produce eg. strawberries into the bag from behind the counter! We don't expect the world when entering a restaurant. We expect food to be fresh and we expect to be treated with the simple plesantries that all cultures CAN manage. Regardless. After all, they are providing a service & we are the ones paying their wages. And....we would NEVER have treated anyone with such disrespect as to tell them that because they spoke a foreign language, they couldn't eat at a restaurant. Unbelievable! We visited 14 different countries and experienced many differnent cultures and met many wonderful people on our journey. Spain took the prize for being our least favourite, simply because of the way we were treated and ripped off on many occasions. I can accept variations in cultural 'manner'. What I can't accept is rudeness & dishonesty and secondly paying good money for crappy food. Spain, in the opinion that I'm entitled to express, is certainly not the place I'd choose to go if I was looking for yummy food or pleasant, welcoming people. Just as I'd written before. Restaurants are rife with substandard tapas and the service to match!

For sure most of us (specially basque locals) would like to know the name of these places and details on your experiences, please take some time to write a report in detail.

Ronael as an Australian who has also travelled extensively in Spain I'm amazed you could "write off" a whole country based on your experience. I can't credit that every waiter or service staff was rude? How could that be...that's like saying every Australian is laid back, and we now know that's not true!

I can only say that I am sorry you had such an unfortunate stay in Spain. These incidents you report would certainly upset anyone. I am confident, however, that this is not the majority of travelers' experiences, but I am sure there are others out there that do not even bother to post such encounters.

I do agree that in MANY places the service is less than recommendable, and over the years I have learned( and convinced Spanish friends) to look over restaurant bills, especially in tourist areas, as for the past forty years there seem to be some unscrupulous practices here and there, no matter where you go. An extra bottle of wine for a group, food that was not ordered or eaten, an unusual, handwritten mathematical error, etc.

I do feel some visits to the suggested eateries you find here would have shone a different light on your stay. A shame you seemed to hit the bad spots ( and there are quite a few, I am sure). It wouldn't take too many of those encounters to taint a holiday.

Glad to see the rest of your long journey went so well.

As Josele, I would like to know the names of the places in San Sebastián providing "substandard tapas and the service to match". In 23 years I have yet to visit a place in town that would remotely fit such a description. Food is religion in San Sebastián and the Basque country in general, and I would expect such a place to be out of business in a week.

Must have visited a different Barcelona to me then.

Ronael on another topic says she was kidnapped in Istanbul. It is unfortunate that many things horrible things happen to her while traverling.

And what about her problems with the car rentals in Italy & Portugal? Was the offer in Morocco really 20,000 camels?

You can check the latter of Robert's question here:
http://camels.evilsun.org/

Great site Cowboy1968. We never had anything like this when I was a preteen living in Rabat and Casablanca. It would have been useful at times.

I was once offered 50,000 pts for a nice looking blond from one of the Nordic countries while sitting at a sidewalk cafe in Torremolinos many years ago, but even then the peseta wasn't worth a whole lot, but you could live for a week on a 1000 pesetas.