btilke

I'm just wrapping up a month in Switzerland and while the scenery is as beautiful as ever, I am dismayed and disgusted by the amount of graffiti I have seen in EVERY town I've been to in the past four weeks. It's everywhere! In Bern, for example, even the old churches--like the venerable Munster-- have graffiti sprayed on them. It's appalling. Basel and Neuchatel are especially bad, but even the smaller towns, like Thun in the Bernese Oberland, have large amounts of graffiti on homes and public buildings alike. I complained about it to one of my Swiss colleagues and he shrugged--well, he said, that's all they can get away with. As if we should accept it and sympathize because they can't get away with more serious crimes!! <BR>I hope the Swiss police and other authorities crack down on this form of vandalism. I took pictures recently of some of the worst examples in Basel, Neuchatel and Bern. The small villages may *so far* be safe from the graffiti onslaught, but nowhere else. It's an outrage.<BR>BTilke

xxxx

It's the same all over in Germany. We go every year and graffiti gets worse.<BR>But at least we can walk everywhere at all times and don't have to worry about getting shot, raped, robbed or car-jacked like we would in the U.S.A. So, don't complain.

BTilke

XXXX, the only times I've been robbed or had a gun pulled on me were in western Europe. So don't try and pretend that violent crimes don't happen in Europe. And it's a very dangerous to assume that people can walk "anywhere at all times" without risking attacks. You're a German, go talk to some people in Hamburg about walking safely anywhere anytime. You might learn something.

yyy

The rates of murders or rapes in Italy and western southern Europe are for both crimes 1 out of 100000 persons. Violent robberies are extremely rares, it is more about pickpocketting or car's thieves. <BR>In the States the rates are I think 4/100000 for murders and 6/100000 for rapes. Don't know the rates about Switzerland but I really wonder where you couldn't walk at any time ? <BR> The rates of crime however in France and in the U.K. are similar to those in the U.S.

BTilke

Actually, a few Basel residents have warned me against going into certain parts of "little" Basel anytime after dark. And that pickpockets part of an organized crime group have been prowling certain other areas of the "big" Basel. <BR>Citing crime stats has nothing to do with the growing problem of ugly, destructive graffiti in Switzerland. Some of the vandalized buildings have centuries old designs on them that have effectively been ruined. The damage to these beautiful, historic buildings has nothing to do with the citing of irrelevant crime stats from other countries (believe it or not, there are many quiet, safe communities in the U.S.--Europeans just don't like to hear about them, it interferes with their stereotypes). <BR>I hope the Swiss authorities will start taking graffiti seriously--apparently right now they're taking a casual, so-what approach, but it's definitely a black mark against such a beautiful country.<BR>BTilke

Leslie

Philadelphia solved its graffiti problem by having annual contests for the most creative art. Different owners of both vacant and occupied buildings have donated walls of their buildings just for this event. Besides it being a well-promoted contest, the city of Philadelphia even has a sightseeing tour to show off the creativity. I understand that a basic idea and draft need to be submitted to a Philadelphia Arts Committee for these individuals and groups to get a wall.<BR><BR>I think its a great concept, as Philadelphia which used to be a trashy looking city looks much cleaner, and the graffitti art is appreciated.

Ursula

BTilke: Graffiti is a problem, yes. As soon as they are removed, the reappear. So, they are just left, I guess. Switzerland is not only that beautiful nice little country without any problems. There is unemployment, there are drug problems, etc. especially among younger people and sort of "I don't care attitude". It's a social problem that cannot be resolved like that. Usually, graffiti sprayers are night-active, so, what can be done. There are a lot of them in Zurich too. One gets used to it in a way.<BR>Hope your stay in Basel is fine, nevertheless. And have fun at the Fasnacht.

Gar

hi there,<BR>well, no wonder that Swizzerland is top i Graffii for it was "invented" there the way we know it now (Naegeli). And for this guy had problems with the police in Zuerich he went to Stuttgart to perfect his style ... So it came to Germany. But You are right, this has nothing to do with violence and crime. Also right that everyone puts the top on the USA when it comes to statistic rates about murder etc. But for shure, Western Europe is far behind the USA in this case. Btw – the leader is Australia. If You wanna have You chance to run into a murder or rape go there. <BR>Gar

Chris

Geneva was the only city we toured that had "Yankee go home" scrawled on walls.

Ursula

Gar: Funny you should mention Harald Naegeli. At least he was kind of an artist. I loved his little cute figures, but not necessarily on old and beautiful houses and buildings.

BTilke

Nothing stops the Swiss locals from forming "town watch" type groups of locals who take turns patrolling their streets at night to alert police to vandalism. Their presence is a strong deterrent. I've been part of town watch patrols in the States. But they don't seem to occur anywhere in Europe. It's not part of the mindset, I guess. <BR>The Swiss I've talked to blame the problem on children of immigrants--so the presence of graffiti everywhere only hardens their anti-foreigner attitudes. <BR>I never expected Switzerland to be a postcard with no real-life problems. But I would hope the Swiss would try something to deal with the desecration of many beautiful neighborhoods, rather than just shrugging their shoulders.

Florence

Btilke,<BR>Thanks for the suggestion, but I'd rather live with graffiti on my walls than with paranoid members of town-watch patrols persuaded that graffiti is the first step leading to murder or communist revolution ;-). <BR>Our police is much more preoccupied with making sure the number of really important crime doesn't get higher, and graffiti is a nuisance, not a life-threatening crime. Getting rid of it means education and offering offenders more fulfilling pastimes, not repression.

Shruggie

I was just in New Orleans and although it was a great time I couldn't believe all of the extreme poverty that I saw everywhere. I mean, ghettoes siding with mansions destroying the ambience of the fantasy of wealth and a clean community full of music loving, gumbo slurping hedonists. I cannot believe that the most powerful, wealthy nation on earth (as YOUR leader keeps reminding the world) would let such a thing happen in a free country like the US of A. I mean it is absolutely ludicrous that you allow poverty in the coolest city in the States. <BR><BR>You get my point btilke? Aren't there more serious things to worry about in your own country than spray painted walls over the big pond?

BTilke

Uh, Shruggie, I live in Europe and I've just spent the past several weeks working in Switzerland. <BR>Florence, I find it VERY rude and insulting that you consider me--and my friends who were part of Town Watch groups--as "paranoid". Please tell me how you know people who participate in Town Watch groups are paranoid rather than simply neighbors who believe in taking some responsibility for their community. Obviously you've had no real experience with Town Watches and just want to indulge in more anti-American stereotypes. I talked to the owner of a 17th century home whose facade was ruined by graffiti and believe me, he considers if more than just a "nuisance." <BR>Actually, I took several photos of some of the worst graffiti and since I'm a journalist, I'll be writing an article about it for a travel magazine.

Capo

Interesting info about Philadelphia and graffiti, Leslie...thanks.<BR><BR>Sounds like a successful application of the "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" concept. <BR><BR>I don't care for "tagging" -- and, of course, graffiti of any kind shouldn't be sprayed on property the sprayer doesn't own -- but I'm often amazed by the talent and creativity one sees displayed in a lot of graffiti. Why not, as Philadelphia has apparently done, try to channel some of this creative energy?

Florence

Btilke,<BR>did I mention Americans ? no. Do I assume members of town-watch schemes in America are paranoid ? not necessarily. Do I have experience with town-watch schemes ? Yes, here in Switzerland. A few villages not far from Geneva have them. Paranoid the lot of them, busy with pestering the police about how foreigners hanging their laundry at the window are the avant-garde of Attila's hordes and "taggers" should be hung, as if there were no other more pressing concern. I'll have (without pleasure) graffiti on my walls any time over those idiots.

Tony

Hey YYY, get off your "I Hate The USA" mental trip. There are thousands of towns across the USA that have NO CRIME. The only times I have been mugged were in Italy and Holland, not the USA. You are just a "Hater". If you hate it here so much, then LEAVE!

Gar

Ursula: Well, I'm not shure whether Neageli is an artist, but I also loved his little figures. I'm also not shure whether he left anything on old houses or so. If I remember right in Stuttgart he did only the grey concrete wall. The authortitys did it all away. And now, after so many years, they haved looked if they could find any of those paintings, but they didnt. Only one is safed, but they are not 100% shure if it is "a Naegeli".

yyy

Dear Tony, I don't need to leave the USA since I don't live there but here in Italy. I wasn't criticising, nor do I hate the US, I was just stating some facts. The rates I was showing come from an american site (don't remember the name) that stated the crime rates all over the world. The US had one of the biggest crime rate. I am sure some places have no crime at all, but remember a rate is an average, if it says 4/100000 for murders for the all the country, it means that some places may have a 1/100000 rate and others a 8/100000. The only places in Europe that were near those figures were UK and France. I was just replying to Btlike that Europe is rather a safe place. If this means to you that I hate the US it shows to me that you are either a fascist (come down Tony, fascist is not another antiamerican insult, you have fascists all over the world in any culture), or either you are being greatly emotional therefore if you'd like to participate and sharing opinions in what is called a conversation, you should first relax and maybe taking some vacations...

Tony Hughes

Well I hate to state the obvious but what did you expect? Rolling hills, people in lederhosen churning butter and smiling at you as you walked past? Heidi-ish kids running up to you with wooden toys? <BR><BR>People live in Switzerland, the same sort of people who live in North America or Senegal or Tristan da Cunha. People do bad things at times. <BR><BR>Switzerland isnt Epcot - there isnt an army of people tidying up after everyone else. I'm afraid it's a fact of life.