germany trip

If you want to spend several days in the Bavarian countryside then yes renting a car will be best for that as public transportation is limited - and you could from Fussen, home to Mad Ludwig's fantasy castle Neuschwanstein, no doubt Europe's most famous castle and most photographed castle on tour brochures, drive along the Romantic Road to Rothenburg (actually still in Bavaria) and then take the Castle Road - the lovely lovely Castle Road that follows the castle-studded and lovely Neckar River valley all the way to Heidelberg, one of Germany's few towns not blitzed in WW2 (locals say because the Allies wanted it for their postwar HQs which it did become and there are still many American military types in the area) - but a lovely old town with the castle of your dreams popping right out of its middle - check out these fabled iconic Student Inns in this lively university town.

Then drive along the Rhine Gorge - another fabled place in Germany and follow the Rhine all the way to Dusseldorf.

It depends on your destinations, but generally not. There are something like 1,000 train stations in Bavaria. It's hard to find places to go that aren't served by train. Here's Bavaria:

http://www.bahnland-bayern.de/content-startseite/streckennetzplan-pdf

And 2 people have nearly unlimited rail and/or bus travel all day on a Bayern ticket for just 29€:

http://www.munich-touristinfo.de/Bavaria-Ticket.htm

It's hard for rental cars to compete with that.

Getting to D'dorf by train from elsewhere in Germany is cheap if you buy advance-purchase tix at www.bahn.de . It's 49€ for two from Stuttgart (about 4 hrs. away), for example, if you buy 92 days out, when they first go on sale, and you get the cheapest ones. Prices go up as tickets sell.

Düsseldorf: A more direct route north would bypass most of Bavaria and take you via Stuttgart and maybe Heidelberg, and there's a lot to see on that route too. The Black Forest, the Swabian Alb region, the Middle Rhine Valley. But you can also go northeast through Bavaria, then veer northwest and hit the Middle Rhine on your way to D'dorf. Just depends on what you want to see. I'd suggest picking up a guidebook to see what specific places interest you most.

A car would be useful given that Oberstaufen seems to be somewhat out of the way, implying train changes (and time lost) to get to some of the other attractions.

For time and distances, try Google map. Their time might be somewhat optimistic.

PalenQ writes, "...public transportation is limited."

I honestly can't come up with other places in Europe that have a denser or more efficient transportation system, with the possible exception of Switzerland, than the one you'll find in Germany (and Bavaria). No place is getting around without a car easier, in my experience. The link above provides only the Bavarian rail lines. In what way do you find public transport here limited, PalenQ? Where is it better? Or are you just saying that a car is always better for seeing the countryside, no matter where you are?

"A car would be useful given that Oberstaufen seems to be somewhat out of the way, implying train changes (and time lost) to get to some of the other attractions."

Fact is, there are direct trains into Munich from Oberstaufen. 2 hrs., 4 min.

Viamichelein says you can drive the same route in 2 hrs., 5 min. 18€ for gas too.

Obviously, you can find some journeys where the car is more effective. But you can certainly tour Bavaria by train without a struggle.

It takes just about 6 hours to get from Oberstaufen to Rothenburg, with a minimum of 3 changes. The trip by car takes a little over two hours according to Google map. The trip to Wieskirche would take almost three hours by train and bus, and 1.5 hour by car. In both cases, one's visit may be limited by the return trip schedule if using public transportation.

Rothenburg is on a trunk line at the northern end of Bavaria. It's a place that takes extra time to reach no matter where you're coming from. With 10 days it's unlikely the OP would drive there first and skip most of Bavaria. A more likely trip might be from Nuremberg to Rothenburg: 1:08 by car - if there's no traffic, of course - 1:10 by fast train, 1:28 by regional train. Not much difference, but it's 11+€ for gas with the car.

The OP will be based in Oberstaufen, which implies day trips to various sites/sights. A choice will have to be made between convenience and cost.

Michael: FYI, 8 of the first 13 departures to Rothenburg are less than 5 hours by train to Rothenburg, and the rest are closer to 5 than 6. It's certainly not a daytrip by train. But driving Oberstaufen to Rothenburg and back in a daytrip isn't either, really; it requires nearly 5 hours of driving total, not 4 - check viamichelin. And that's with no delays. They'd likely do R'burg on the way north on a 3-day journey, as suggested by the OP, perhaps, as an overnight stop.

With more typical daytrip destinations under 2 hours, train vs. car travel times are much closer.

Ulm: 8:02 and 8:58 departures at 1:36 hrs and 1:42 hrs, respectively. Driving has a small edge at 1:25 hrs.

Romantic Road town Augsburg takes 1:28 hours by direct train at 8:02 from Oberstaufen, or 1:26 if you leave at 10:03. That's 20 minutes faster than driving to Augsburg, which takes 1:48 hours.

Oberstaufen to another RR town, Landsberg am Lech: 1:34 hrs. by train at 8:39 am, or 1:24 by car.

Oberstaufen to Lindau: :37 by car. By train, :39, :35, :41, and :36 minutes by direct train for departures between 9am and 12pm.

Figure in rental fees, gas, parking, etc. and trains are completely competitive on daytrips. Not for every possible journey, perhaps, but probably for most. A week of Bayern tickets will cost 200€. What would these trips cost by rental car?

We toured Bavaria by train in May 2011 and found it incredibly easy and very reasonable. The bahn site is very
easy to use and it is not difficult to map out a logical
route using the site. I really recommend Nurnberg (sp) and
Bamberg-old sections of each if you can. I did rely on
Russ for advice when I first started to make plans but it really was easy. We used Bayern tickets.

Pat

I'm with Michael;

Oberstaufen to Fuessen Car 0:58 Train 1:54
Oberstaufen to Garmisch Car 1:41 Train 3:22 (2 changes)
Oberstaufen to Oberammergau Car 1:43 Train 4:08 (3 changes)

If you want to head east from Oberstaufen to any of the more popular Bavarian alpine sites, the train takes more than twice as long as driving. And then you are just at the train station which can put you a long way from what you came to see; the tacky fake castle Russ hates (Neuschwanstein), and the Zugspitze, for example. Add in walking, bus, or taxi time to and from the train stations and the car keeps looking better.

Going north to some of the larger cities is pretty much a toss up - that is if Ulm, Augsburg and Landsberg are your primary day trip targets.

It's possible to tour parts of Bavaria by train "without a struggle" and for somewhat less than a rental car would cost, but that is inherently limiting. A car opens up far more area and is at least as fast for all destinations.

We really don't know how far or how much the OP wants to travel in Bavaria - to say that the train is cheaper for certain (not "most") easily accessible sites when the OP might want to reach those sites for which the train makes little sense is like telling him it's better to stay in Oberstaufen and not spend anything on transportation because it's cheaper - a little presumptuous.

Aramis: I really don't think there's much disagreement here to take up sides over. My point was that generally, from Oberstaufen, the train works out just fine and is a better deal, but that, and I quote myself now, "It depends on your destinations" and "Obviously, you can find some journeys where the car is more effective."

My only quibble with Michael involves his faulty numbers and his choice of Rothenburg as a good example for a daytrip.

And when PalenQ says stuff like "public transportation is limited" in Bavaria, he makes it sound like France or some other trainless backwater. If you find Bavarian transportation "limited", then you will never find cause to ride a train anywhere on the planet.

What points most to the viability of the Bavarian rail system is the fact that the OP has thrown a dart at Oberstaufen and selected it as a base, of all places, and that daytrips to many places are still very doable by public transport. It's easy to see that if you plan your bases more strategically, train travel will often come out on top on Michael's convenience/cost scale.

What I find hilarious is this lengthy conversation without the OP's details! It's all pretty speculative.

My numbers were taken from Google map and the Deutsche Bahn schedules.

Hi lesanne,

I'm with those who favor public transportation in Bavaria. I live here (moved here in 2008), and I don't have a car. I find it quite easy to get around, though (as others have mentioned) it's not a quick way to go, usually.

But I like that slowness! Especially on a first visit to a place. I don't like rushing from one spot to another as if I were on a race to set foot in 12 spots in 3 days! I prefer to linger, to have more coffee or wine, to meet folks, to wander down a backstreet because I have 20 minutes before my train leaves.

And even the longer trips are a lot more fun than driving. You get to seriously watch and enjoy all the scenery; you get to have coffee, wine, or a snack during the trip; you get to do some world-class people-watching, which is a great way to get to learn about a culture. And you also get the chance to meet some locals who will be sitting beside you for one or two hours during the trip (Bavarians --in general -- love to learn about other places and cultures and to tell you about their trips to the US).

And finally, using the trains of course is more green (YAAAY). Global climate change is really affecting the Bavarian Alps already, and you would be helping to preserve the beauty that you came to see. I already see grey car smog over Garmisch when I'm skiing on the mountains (used to only be over München).

I'm sure you'll have a good trip!

s

My numbers were taken from Google map and the Deutsche Bahn schedules.

Unless one knows more about OP's plans, there is no one answer.

Technically, Oberstaufen is (still) in Bavaria, but sitting in its most southwestern corner. So any exploring should much rather include the neighboring state of Baden-Württemberg, Vorarlberg in Austria, or the southern shores of Lake Constance which are in Switzerland.
It makes much more sense to focus on that 4-territories region than "think Bavaria".

Hence, the usual advice to get just a "Bavaria Ticket" for rail&bus transport is just too sweeping and does not take into account that no one vacationing in that region and will obviously not limit his explorations to the political boundaries of the Free State of Bavaria.

From Oberstaufen, many sight are in easy reach by local transport, i.e. Lindau / Lake Constance, combined with a boat trip.
Sonthofen, Immenstadt, Bregenz, Füssen/ Neuschwanstein, Friedrichshafen zeppelin museum.. all accessible by rail, though not always with the famous "Bayern Ticket".
Or the travel from Munich airport to Oberstaufen by train is also easy.
Other trips, like exploring next door Vorarlberg, the Silvretta reservoir and Alpine Road, Liechtenstein, and the Heidiland part of Switzerland cannot be done by public transport in a sensible way.

Rothenburg is too far as a day trip but could be incorporated into the drive to Düsseldorf if it is a must for whatever reason. In that case, car might make sense. Otherwise, when you don't have too much luggage, take the train direct to Düsseldorf and add the day saved to Oberstaufen.

So, during a one week stay in Oberstaufe, I'd rent a car for 3 days (usually discounts start at 3 days), rely on public transport during the other time, but spend my time neither sitting all day in either in a car nor a train but explore the beautiful scenery the only way it can or should be: on foot. You should not limit yourself to experience the world through a screen.

Oberstaufen is a pretty little village that is not too far from Lindau, and the other attractions of Lake Constance. In July Maniau Insle (the flower island) should be beautiful. We prefer car travel to give us the maximum flexibility. You can make it to Feussen to see Neuschwanstein, Head over to Oberammergau by way of the Wiessekirche. See Linderhof and Ettal Monastary on your way to Munich. Drop the car while you are in Munich. Spend a couple of days in Munich and then pick up another car and head for Rothenberg.

Thank you all for debating the pros and cons of train travel vs. a rental car. It looks like we will combine the two. So far our itinerary is:
Arrv. 7/14 in Munich and take train to Oberstaufen
7/15: Train to Lake Constance/Lindau/Mainau
7/16: Fussen and Oberammergau
7/17: Munich and Dachau
7/18: Train to Salzburg Austria and back
7/19: Rent car and drive to Garmisch and Zugspitze
7/20: Spend day at resort in Oberstaufen
7/21: drive to Heidelberg by way of Neckar River road
7/22: drive to Dusseldorf and return rental car
7/23: Tour Dusseldorf with friend from that city
7/24: Visit Cologne with friend
7/25: Visit Monschau and Birgel with friend
7/26: ?
7/27: Leave for USA

Sound doable? Any towns we should add or subtract from our itinerary? I would like to see Mainz and Bingen Bad on our way to Dusseldorf, but maybe that is too ambitious. All input is appreciated!

7/16-18: Not clear where you're overnighting. IF Oberstaufen, Füssen is feasible by train, O'gau on top of that is not. Salzburg is too far as well. There's no time for Munich if you're visiting Dachau on the same day. I would much prefer to overnight in Munich for everything on Days 16-19 and use the trains from there on those days.

Monschau is a terrific choice.

I'd advise seeing the Middle Rhine instead of Heidelberg and the Neckar:

http://www.welterbe-mittelrheintal.de/intro.html

Lindau, a wondrous old town on a peninsula jutting out into the Bodensee, is also an easy daytrip from Oberstaufen I would think. And think it is still in Bavaria so Bavaria pass would work.

I'm not sure why you are going back to Oberstaffen after Munich. When you go to Oberammergau you may want to make a stop in Garmish before going to Munich. Garmish is a little bigger than the villages you are visiting. Not as much charm for me. If you like standing at the top of the mountain the Zugspitze may be worth the 50-60 Euro pp cable car ride. Another fun little village about 10 miles from Garmish is the violin-maker's village Mittenwald.
I would take whatever time it takes to go to Neuschwanstein, Hohenschwangau, Wiesekirche, Oberammergau, Schlos Linderhof, Ettal Monastary, Garmish/Zugspitze, Mittenwald .... Then into Munich. I agree with your idea to take a train on a day trip from Munich to Salzburg. Use the 29 euro Bayern Ticket for the whole family to go round-trip after 9am.

I just checked the Zugspitze cost, 48€ in summer 39€ in winter.

Many thanks for all of your input. It will really help plan out trip. One more question. Heidelberg is hosting a Bach festival when we plan to visit for a day and night, so most of the hotels are sold out. I would love to see Rothenburg. Does it make sense to visit Heidelberg during the day and then drive to Rothenburg for the evening and next day? Or should we first visit Rothenburg, since we are driving from Oberstaufen, then visit Heidelberg, then stay somewhere like Karlsruhe?

I came across a figure for 2011 (but can't find it right away) that said that German trains carried more passengers than China and India combined!

That's a whole lot of trains for a much smaller country!

Lots and lots of train choices.

I'd also factor in having to park a car.

Whilst German trains carry lots of people I just cannot fathom them carrying more than China and India combined - would like to so that stat and source. 1 billion folks in China and few have cars relatively - ditto India - Germans travel more inter-city by car than trains but S-bahns and metros I guess count as trains.

Still kind of incredible.