PCMom

Please help my husband and I! We are so overwhelmed and have almost gotten to the point where we aren't even that excited about a trip anymore to decide. Here's our situation:

This trip is for our 10th anniversary.
We can go for only 7-10 days (see below.)
We are in our 30s and have 2 young boys (who are staying at home!)
We are educated professionals, although my main job is at home now.
We have traveled quite a bit throughout the US, Caribbean and Mexico (all inclusives and others), but never been to Europe.
We've only cruised twice, both on Carnival, once in college and another 8 years later for a meeting, on the same ship! Not impressed, thought cruising wasn't for us, but don't know enough about Europe to know what we want to see or do.
We are from a smallish city in Virginia, and often tire of American cities quickly.
We are not pretentious and don't like a snooty attitude or stuffy atmospheres.
We enjoy being a part of a place we visit, really experiencing it.
We enjoy architecture, culture, history and food.
We drink socially, and enjoy wine, beer, etc., and while my husband is a night owl, we aren't into night/dance clubs or the like. More of a hang out, eat, drink, talk, laugh kind of people.
We aren't big shoppers, will avoid tourists shops like the plague, don't eat at Starbucks or McDonalds or other chains when home, why would we go there when traveling?!

We originally considered doing a Mediterranean cruise on Seabourn or Azamara at the suggestion of our travel agent, but have decided against it because a.) you can't get a feel for a place if you are only there from 8-5 and b.) if someone annoys you on a ship of 200 (or even 500) people, it's hard to stay away from them! Plus cruises are generally a more relaxed atmosphere and if I'm going to Europe, I want to see it and do it! This isn't going to be a relaxing beach vacation.

We then narrowed the trip to Germany because it's always interested my husband (his ancestors are from there) and Italy because it's, well Italy. We found a suggestion about taking the Romantic Road in Germany and thought that would be a neat way of seeing the country. It's nice because of the short distance between cities/towns, and we'd be on our own. The places of interest in Italy (Rome, Florence, Umbria, Tuscany) are more spread out for more driving, which went against Italy.

When we talked with our travel agent about this and she tried to get us cruising again, then suggested a Rhine River cruise, and highly cautioned us against driving in Germany (and all of Europe). I don't want to do a group trip, wouldn't be opposed to a driver, if the cost was right, and am fine with a train or public transportation if it gets us where we want to go. (Part of me thinks that she wants to help coordinate it all so she gets a cut...)

Oh, and we are talking about doing this next month, likely leaving on the 15th!

So my question is what would you do?! Germany? Italy? Both? And then how would you do it?

bobthenavigator

1. Fire your travel agent
2. Read a good guide book on Italy---the Michelin Green book is good
3. Look at my sample itineraries---I would do Rome and Tuscany in Oct.

BOB the NAVIGATORS’ FIVE FAVORITE ITINERARIES
__________________________________________________ ______________

MAGICAL FAIRYLANDS:
* Arrive and depart Munich--14 nites--May thru Sep.--car travel
* ITINERARY: Salzburg, Dolomites, Venice, Lake Garda, Bavaria
============================================
BELLA ITALIA:
* Arr Milan, dep Venice--15 nites--car & train travel--April thru Oct.
* ITINERARY: Lakes, Ligurian coast, Tuscany, Florence, Venice
============================================
CLASSIC ITALIA:
* Arrive & depart Rome--12 to 14 nites--car & train travel, all year
* ITINERARY: Florence, Tuscan & Umbrian hilltowns, Rome
============================================
LA DOLCE VITA:
* Arr & dep Rome--12 nites--car & train travel--March thru Oct.
* ITINERARY: Amalfi coast, Tuscan hilltowns, Rome
============================================
OF ALPS & LAKES:
* Arrive and depart Zurich--12 nites--train travel--June thru Sep.
* ITINERARY: Berner Oberland, Lugano, Lake Como, Luzern

THE VILLAGE SAMPLER: My personal favorites—north to south.
• Arr Milan & dep Rome---car travel---plan 3 nites per location
• Lake Orta, Castelrotto, Portovenere, Montalcino, Ravello
==============================================

bookchick

PCMom, I am a total Italophile. You will love Italy. So will your DH. And Bob is known for good info. I'd say maybe fly into Rome, stay a couple of nights, go to Florence, you can stay a day, and either rent a car to get into Tuscany or take the train to a smaller town. A couple of days there to decompress, then back down to Rome, staying a night perhaps in Florence on the way. Many Italians, I think most, in fact, are "night people". Dinner isn't before 8 as a rule. Cafe society at its finest. Great works of art and beautiful scenery in the countryside. Weather is likely to be better in Italy that time of year, too. (You may have a bit of rain, but typically it's rainier in November and December in Italy.)

Do a bit of research here. Tell your DH he can seek out his ancestral home on another trip when your kids are older so you as a family can all appreciate it. Also Italy is for lovers.

Buon Viaggio,
BC

annhig

hi PCMom,

if you've only got 7-10 days, you really need to pick EITHER Germany OR italy - you will spread yourselves too thinly and spend too much time travelling if you try to do both.

and there is no need to drive, though it's really not as dreadful as your agent [who perhaps picks up a big commission for a cruise] makes out. whether you want/need a car rather depends on what sort of trip you want to do - if you went for 2-3 italain cities and travelled between them by train [the obvious thing to do in that case as you won't want or need a car in the cities], a car would not just be superfluous but a positive nuisance. if, OTOH, you wanted say, to see Florence and Tuscany, or Rome and Umbria, a car would be essential to get the best out of the trip.

LoveItaly

Hello PC Mom, if it were my anniversary trip I would fly in and out of Rome and book either a hotel room or an apartment in Rome and take a few days trips from Rome during the 7 to 10 days that you have. But does that include your travel time? If so I hope you can spare 10 days total. I would play it by ear while in Rome regarding any day trips as you may find that Rome will offer so much you don't really want to pull yourself away from it especially if your 7 to 10 days include your travel days. If you decide one evening to take a day trip the next morning you can easily get your train tickets at the Termini train station the next morning. Even Florence takes only 90 minutes via the train from Rome to Florence so if you left earlish in the morning and returned after dinner in Florence you could have a lovely time. There are many other daytrips you can take from Rome.

Anyway, I don't from what you have posted think that you are getting great advise from your TA. I can understand why you are overwhelmed and losing interest in your anniversary trip but don't give up.

Again, if it was my anniversary trip I would book the Rome R/T flight and a hotel room for the duration of the time you will have in Rome. Apartments are a bit of a money saver but unless your budget is tight it is nice for your first visit to have a hotel with a 24/7 desk clerk for assistance.

Congratulation on your 10th wedding anniversary and I hope that you two will have a lovely celebration no matter what your decision is regarding your anniversary trip.

judyjayp

One thing about Germany in October: if you visit Bavaria you will see the most beautiful fall color you have ever seen in your life. The colors of the Black Forest and it's environs will blow your mind.

kenman

Hey there,

Don't let the planning stress get in the way of a great trip. A 10th anniversary trip to Europe without the kids will be great almost by definition. And you're not talking high-season, so you shouldn't have a problem doing this very last minute if necessary.

Your travel agent is totally off base on driving in Europe. I'm not the most adventurous guy in the world, and we do it all the time. In my view, it's actually easier than in the States -- better roads, better signage -- plus it allows you tremendous freedom. The Romantic Road would be a nice choice if you've got your heart set on Germany. We flew into Munich in October two years ago, rented a car (which turned out to be a brand new BMW, because it's Munich), and cruised around the area -- including King Ludwig's castles, and even shot into Austria to visit Salzburg. It was very interesting, lovely in fall, and really easy.

That said, I'll take Italy over Germany any day. It's all very personal, but I find the history, art and food much better in Italy. (And it's much more romantic, IMHO). We tend to move fast on trips, so I'm tempted to say you can do a quick taste of Southern Germany and a chunk of Italy, but (a) you'd definitely be rushing, and (b) renting a car in Germany and returning in Italy is extremely expensive. So unless your husband has a deep desire to see something specific in Germany (in which case I'd fly), I'd personally spend the whole vacation in Italy.

I know there are a lot of Rome lovers on here, with good reason, but from your description, I wonder whether you might be bigger fans of Venice and Florence. They're a bit more manageable, less frenzied, and more romantic. (I also think Florence/Tuscany has the best food in Italy, with the possible exception of Naples). We were in Rome last October, and while we love Rome, it was actually really hot -- we fled after two days (three days early) for Orvieto. Rome is a big crowded city -- albeit one with absolutely amazing architecture and art. But, again, if it were me looking for a romantic getaway, I'd do something like fly into Venice, spend three nights there relaxing, celebrating love, etc., then catch a train to Florence, spend a few days exploring the city and its amazing art, then rent a car and spend the last few days in the countryside (Montelpuciano, Chianti country, whatever). You could drop off the car at the very manageable Florence airport and fly out from there. This would be a great combination of really unique and sernely beautiful (Venice), spectacular art (Florence), great scenery and good (Tuscany), while being relatively low-stress and quite romantic. So that's my two cents.

Enjoy. Ken

nytraveler

Agree your travel agent is useless and it sounds as if s/he has never been to europe.

With only 7 days I would stick to 2 destinations, with 10 (assuming both are days on the ground and don;t include arrival or departure days) you could squeeze in a 3rd but it would be pushing it.

Given the choice I would 2 either rome and 1 other city (Florence? Venice?)in Italy or part of Germany.

Only you can decide which is really what you want. Suggest you have look at a couple of the better (full color pix and focused on sights) guide books to see which will really interest you more. If you do Germany - romantic road or rhine or whatever - then I would rent a car to have maximum freedom to explore small towns and countryside on your own terms. But I would include at least one city so you get some major sights.

If you decide on italy just take a train between cities.

franco

In October, this is a no-brainer for me - weather is already far too bad in Germany in October to take that into serious consideration.
As far as driving, I might agree, for anxious drivers, that could be another point against Germany (where drivers are pretty aggressive, very fast and a little crazy), but Italians are the best drivers in the world - period. So while it's of course true that there are many destinations in Italy where a car is not necessary, it's also true that with a car, you have many more options, and there's certainly no reason to be scared of driving in Italy.
Finally, <The places of interest in Italy (Rome, Florence, Umbria, Tuscany) are more spread out for more driving> - well, you really need that good guide book on Italy suggested by Bob. Every square inch of Italy is a place of interest, and with just 7 to 10 days, you can stay in any given (however small!) region of this amazing country and be totally overwhelmed by the cultural richness and terrific sights of that small area. Definitely no need to drive huge distances.

mamcalice

To me, it isn't a difficult choice. I would choose Italy 10 times out of 10. But you need to do some work on your own. It is your trip and you need to go to a place that is of most interest to you and your husband. The weather will likely be better in Italy in October. You enjoy agriculture, culture, history and food. Italy is full of all of those. Good luck in your planning - you need to choose soon. October is not very far away.

Mike_mi_65

PCMom, while I love both countries I would have to go with Italy because of the weather and food. Germany in October is rainy and a little on the cool side.

After reading your post I would suggest splitting the trip equally between two cities and do daytrips. For example, Florence and Rome or Venice and Florence.

While Rome is beautiful it can overload the senses especially if you're from a rural area. The large number of sites is dizzying to say the least. But you said you want "to do" things. Unless you're flying into Rome I would suggest you get use to Italy in one of the smaller cities first (Florence or Siena). Rome has so much to offer you could spend the entire week there.

I personally would just take the train or bus for daytrips. They hardly ever get lost and you have a short amount of time. The fast trains are pretty efficient.

Pisa. Just don't bother. A huge tourist trap with the worst food you will ever eat.
Milan. Good for a daytrip. See the Duomo, go up on the roof.

Most of all, if you pick Italy remember that restaurant service in Italy is slower than what we are use to here. If you're hungry and in a hurry just get something from a stand. Italians like to take a few hours to eat.

If you tire of Italian service in Rome there is an Italian restaurant chain called Pastarito. They are reasonably priced and a little quicker than your typical mom and pop place.

Pick-up a good guide book for sure.

Good luck, Mike.

LSky

I'd get rid of the travel agent also.

Italy might be better for you since you've not made any real plans yet and it's easier to take on Rome, Florence and/or Venice in the time you have.

Personally, I pick Germany every time. That's where we're going but we like the cool weather. I love driving in Germany, the roads are in prime condition and everyone knows the rules. It's a pleasure.

PCMom

I know that part of what I keep coming back to with this trip is that we really can't go wrong between Germany and Italy! I wish we had more time to give, but with our boys at home, it's just too hard.

The TA thing, I think she is as confused as we are. We went to her not knowing what we wanted, she picked a few things, did a lot of research, and we weren't sold on it, so she did some more and came up with the cruise option, which like I said wasn't what we really wanted, but I do think it's 'easier' for her. Since I posted this afternoon she apologized for what she said about driving in Europe, said that she tends to be very conservative with her clients about what they might want to do for their vacations, not wanting them to 'stress'. She also suggested some guided tours including one that is Munich, Salsburg and Vienna. It's the type of thing where you see 7 cities in 10 days. One of our good friends went on a similar tour this summer and loved it. The same company (Globus) also has 2 Italy tours during our time period.

What's your feelings on the guided tour vs. going at it on our own? Is it worthwhile or can you do as much on your own with proper planning?

Based on your responses and those of some friends, I am leaning toward Italy, especially Rome and Florence, kind of like Bob's Classic Italia option. We plan on staying in a Marriott in Rome (have a TON of points) but will be able to have 'more fun' with the options in Florence or where ever we stay.

We spent some time in the bookstore this weekend looking over several different (mostly German) books and once we know for sure, I'll definitely be heading back out and getting some good tour books! I love reasons to go to the bookstore!

Thanks again!

LSky

Tours are great; for some people.

"What's your feelings on the guided tour vs. going at it on our own? Is it worthwhile or can you do as much on your own with proper planning?"

Around here you're going to run into people who love to think about and plan travel. Going on a tour, imo, is horrible. All the fun is taken out of the adventure weeks or months before I go. There is no point to learning a little of a new language, you'll never speak it. Researching all the cool buildings and art to see is wasted, unless it's on the tours route. I love planning, googling and reading different books.

OTOH, if you want to see the sights and get a guided tour then move onto the next city while someone else does the research and driving it would seem that a tour is perfect for you. I have friends who love to go on tours. Their biggest decision is what to wear.

10 days in Italy, all you have to decide is how many days in each city and where to sleep.

screen_name_taken

before you go buying guide books, search these boards ... you will get a lot more relevant information from people who have actually "been there, done that" and offer their honest opinions about cities/towns, lodging, reastaurants, sightseeing, etc. Tour books don't quite measure up, IMO.

You will never go wrong with Italy. I don't really know about Germany, but ... the food, sights, sites, people, history, ruins, art, architecture, ... Italy has it all.

screen_name_taken

one more thing - ignore your TA. Do your own research and then go to a TA if you feel it's necessary. By then you will know what you want, and will not be "sold" something that is not what you are looking to experience.

Cruises? you never get the flavor of a particular city, just a minimal taste, which makes your impression of that psrticular city quite flawed.

Russ

Italy: 7-10 Days is barely enough to do justice to Rome and Florence, much less to explore the countryside, if you really plan to "experience" these places. There's an awful lot to see.

"We are from a smallish city in Virginia, and often tire of American cities quickly.
We enjoy being a part of a place we visit, really experiencing it.
We aren't big shoppers, will avoid tourists shops like the plague"

Your comments and the Romantic Road alternative that has caught your eye leads me to think that you might feel, as some have suggested, less than comfortable in the big sight-seeing machines of Rome and Florence. You will be a tourist there along with thousands and thousands of other tourists, for sure.

I'm thinking it might be good to do Italy some other time when you have more time and can take it at a pace that's suits your style - mix in some down time here and there and some smaller locations too.

Germany generally makes for a less harried introduction to Europe. The history and architecture there is more abundant in the smaller towns and rural areas which were not obliterated in WW II; it's hard to avoid the medieval castles, the half-timbered, cobblestoned villages, the cathedrals, and the baroque palaces that dot the countryside.

I would axe the cruise idea for sure. You can take a short cruise past dozens of castles along the Rhine on your own. Pick a stretch between Bingen and Koblenz for the best scenery:

http://www.k-d.com/englisch/schiffst...rhein-off.html

http://www.k-d.com/englisch/schiffstouren/winter-1.html

You can see the Middle Rhine Valley easily by car or by train. Don't miss a tour of Marksburg Castle in Braubach:

www.marksburg.de

Religious architecture: Cologne, Mainz, Worms, and Speyer along the Rhine have some amazing cathedrals.

If you're driving, you might want to check out the Castle Road:

http://goeurope.about.com/od/mapsofg...stlerd_map.htm

If you visit the Romantic Road, well, there's a ton of information on that already. Plan to be a "tourist" in touristy Rothenburg. It is an amazing town though. I would suggest getting OFF the Romantic Road as well, or you'll miss some good places nearby, like...

Bamberg

The Beer Road and the Franconian open-air museum: http://t3-kundenserver.de.dedi661.yo...dex.php?id=322

Russ

I neglected to mention an amazing piece of architecture near Bamberg: the Vierzehnheiligen (say that 10 times fast!) Basilica just to the north:

http://www.franken-infos.de/Sehenswu...nheiligen.html

Russ

You might also enjoy the "Federweisser" Fest in Rüdesheim, on the Rhine northwest of Frankfurt. This is the new season's first batch of wine, and the festival takes place on the last 2 weekends in October.

http://www.romantischer-rhein.de/en/events.html

franco

Russ, I think you're right about Italy's huge art cities not being ideal for such a short first-time holiday - that's why I was suggesting to pick any random small area in Italy. They could very well spend their entire holiday in Friuli-Venezia Giulia, just to give an example - no tourists (in October, not even on the coast), no large city (Trieste is a rather small city), plenty of interesting places, some beautiful scenery, good food and wine. Or, second possibility, in Le Marche - no tourists, either, plenty of interesting and/or charming small towns, no real city anywhere (even Ancona is more of a large town): relaxing, real Italy (as opposed to "Rick Steves' Italy"). Third suggestion: a Palladio trip in the region of Veneto - concentrate on Palladio's architecture, and take in what's by the wayside - main sights: Vicenza, Lonedo di Lugo, Fanzolo di Vedelago, Fratta Polesine, Maser, Piombino Dese - and in Venice, just the four Palladian buildings (S. Giorgio Maggiore, the adjacent cloister, Il Redentore, S. Francesco della Vigna), plus what the remaining time permits. No. four: Liguria (another region that is doable as a whole in the given time span), with just one full day in a city (Genova). No. 5: southern Tuscany. It's possible to see the part of Tuscany south of Siena (including Siena proper) in 10 days. No. 6: northern Lazio, a completely tourist-free region with plenty of gems, small towns, Etruscan necropoleis, mannerist palaces with beautiful gardens, great medieval churches, you name it; and you have all that for you alone... No. 7: Amalfi Coast, Naples, Pompei, Capri - October is a nice month to go there!
And these are just examples... it would be easy to suggest at least 20 more itineraries like these, without concentrating on exhausting large cities.