bilboburgler

Not a nice topic, I've been trying to think what it would be like in a slowly crashing aircraft with the door locked and designed to stay locked as the pilot crashes it.

Peace to all

kybourbon

I don't think the passengers knew in the first few minutes. The door locks have several features designed to prevent someone accessing that shouldn't (plus procedures to follow). Here's a video that shows how this particular plane's lock system works (it's not the same airline, just same type plane).

http://www.theguardian.com/world/vid...manwings-crash

NeoPatrick

Interesting that you've been trying to think what it would be like. Meanwhile I've been trying very hard NOT to think what it would be like.

HappyTrvlr

I saw Capt. Sully Sulenberger interviewed on CBS today. He said there should always be two pilots in cockpit with a third in cabin to replace one when needed.

NeoPatrick

But that is NOT how it works in Europe. And in fact not how it always works in the US either on shorter haul flights. Rarely even in the US do you have three pilots. Or is he just saying "it would be nice if that were the case, even though that's not the way it's done"?

BritishCaicos

It is the smilar situation as terrorism.

Impossible to prevent.

With terrorism, after all the security and billions spent, there is nothing to stop some nutter standing on a public road at the bottom of a runway with a SAM missile.

In the German Wings situation you put an armed guard in every cockpit and then the armed guard just turns out to be a nutter.

Terrible situation but can and will always happen.

sandralist

I see that several European airlines have already announced a change in policy that would require at least two people be in the cockpit at all times, so if one member of a 2-person piloting team needs to leave, he or she will be replaced by another member of the in-flight crew for the duration. Not necessarily another pilot, but someone capable of summoning help in an emergency. Not a totally perfect answer, but an improvement and a likely deterrent to would-be suicide killers.

Dukey1

Some have said this COULD have been prevented if the airline followed the US standard of having a flight attendant IN the cockpit whenever one of the pilots is NOT in the cockpit. Some European carriers are already saying they will do this; Lufthansa says it is "thinking about it."

I suspect that Lufthansa's LEGAL Dept is thinking about it quite a lot.

flpab

Lufthansa better be thinking about it. All about the bottom line.

kleeblatt

Germanwings is going to be replaced by Eurowings next November with the promise of even lower prices for flights. The announcement came at the beginning of this month.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/lufthans...ber-1425482837

sandralist

Luthansa has to be very careful what it says at the moment. They are facing the possibility of a huge amount of legal liability for the suicide crash.

Robert2533

Before the advent of the new Boeing and Airbus aircraft, all flight decks had three people, a pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer occupying the third seat. There are still some engineers (the third pilot Capt Sully referred to) flying on some 747s, but not many airlines have them.

bilboburgler

Not sure what I would do in the last 5 minutes.

dotheboyshall

What happens if the 3rd person turns out to be the suicidal one?

kybourbon

While you probably can't stop someone intent on suicide, if their policy had been to have someone else in the cockpit at all times, he may have chosen another way to end his life. It's a deterrent, just like the locked doors. Another person in the cockpit could possibly distract them long enough for the pilot or FA trying to get in to get their override code to work or prevent the person from hitting the lock-out switch each time a code was entered. It gives you a chance which they didn't have with their current policy.

Norwegian Air was the first to announce a change in their policy yesterday. After that, Easy Jet and Air Canada changed their policy.

>>>I wonder how often the protocol is ignored on US flights, when the FAs are really busy, and a pilot needs a pee. <<<

Red herring. You should be wondering if Germanwings had the policy would these people be dead.

sandralist

Well, I also think it is fair to wonder if policies are adhered to. There is nothing anybody can do now about the people who are dead. The point of discussing this is to improve policy and performance to prevent a re-occurance.

Looking at pictures of this particular pilot, and being a woman close to six feet tall, I see no reason to worry if the pilot or the "minder" in the cockpit is female.

This I think is of relevance for frequent travelers (from the Financial Times):


"The lack of focus on mental health in the routine medical exams was cited as a concern in the Manual for Civil Aviation Medicine, published by ICAO in January 2013. This body sets the standards for global aviation safety, but has no power to enforce implementation of its recommendations. ICAO said that while the prevalence of mental health and substance abuse problems was rising in the general population, “relatively little formal attention is given to these aspects in the routine periodic encounter with an aviation medical examiner”.

The report continues that for the younger pilot “there is an apparent mismatch between the likelihood of the existence of particular pathologies of flight safety importance (mainly mental and behavioural problems) and the tools being used to detect them (the traditional medical examination).”

ICAO cites studies which show that pilots may be underreporting instances of depression in order to be able to continue flying. Rules in many countries bar pilots from the cockpit if they are taking antidepressants.

2014 was the safest year in aviation in terms of the number of accidents, with crashes as a percentage of departures more than halving over the past 20 years. Yet increasing pressures on pilots as airlines seek to change working practices to cope with the huge rise in air travel means that issues such as substance abuse, depression and fatigue are moving up the safety agenda.
Rob Hunter, of Balpa, the pilots union, said mental health screening had been the subject of an important debate for some time in the industry.

“We are seeing an increasing number of pilots going part-time not for lifestyle reasons, but because psychologically they cannot take the pressures. The flight rosters are too demanding.”
Balpa has complained to the European ombudsman about the lack of medical assessment in the formulation of new flight time limitations, he said.

NeoPatrick

With an average of only about 8 hours a WEEK of flying since he became a pilot for Germanywings a year and a half ago, I don't see the likelihood of the high pressure and burn out being much of an issue with this particular pilot.

sandralist

This pilot is dead and incapable of killing any more people, and I think it would be making a mistake to focus too narrowly on his particulars.

Apparently Lufthansa and other airlines have nets in place to catch pilots who shouldn't be flying -- and in this case, the net appears not have been big enough. The lesson to draw from this one case is to widen the net, because any future cases are likely to be just as quirky. Bigger the net, better the chances of preventing another tragedy.

But be prepared for a pushback from those who don't want the airlines to spend money that would cause ticket prices to rise.

sandralist

(or who are just ideologically opposed to labor unions and regulations, and who feel passengers should accept life-threatening risks in order not to dampen profit margins and "innovations")