Britons frown on only using a fork too, or they used to.
Here too (the Netherlands) when eating out it is normal to use both utensils. what you do at home is your own affair.

Well, using bread as a mop at a "white tablecloth" dinner is not considered particularly polite by many Americans, but I would not expect a French person in the US to desist.

Similarly, I have lived in France for 3 1/2 years, UK and R of I for total of 5 years without feeling the need to conform to the French, indeed European, knife and fork method. It doesn't seem to have hindered our social life as we dine with Germans, French, Dutch, English in their homes and ours. I don't think anyone has turned one of our invitations down due to my "rude, crude" manners.

My husband is English so I suppose he passes muster but I can tell you that sometimes watching him eat beans on toast in the English fashion isn't particularly appealing on several levels.

cathinjoetown - I have had the same experience - having had Sunday dinners with my French in-laws for years and always feeling free to use my own method of forking things into my mouth - but I never really realized that it was thought of as rude by at least some French, like my son - if I had known it was considered crude - maybe a better word than rude - I would have conformed to local customs as would be the polite way IMO to do.

Now Americans eating in a restaurant by themselves that is a different story.

It is not rude, but the others at the table might exchange wry glances if you cut your meat using two hands and then put the knife down to switch the fork to your other hand to eat. This totally contradicts the American reputation of efficiency.

And it realy seems wierd

Anything that is so tough that it slides food around on a plate when cut with a fork, should be cut with a knife and held with the fork.

Then we could discuss the manners connected with eating cheese.

Then we could discuss the manners connected with eating cheese.>

yes indeedy - like in a restaurant when the cheese plate comes after the meal you do NOT take one of each type!

On another site, they were just worrying about whether cheese is to be placed on the bread or spread on the bread. Naturally, everybody said "placed" which is generally true, but then there are the runny camemberts or munsters that you might have at home -- different rules!

I understand there used to be restaurants in the US during the depression where you had to eat in a hurry so the use of the fork let you focus on shoveling the stuff in as a fast as possible.

As the Swiss say there is nothing shameful about poverty

kerouac or others - mi-mere - my son's grandma whose Sunday after Mass dinners I attended for years - IYO was I rude by not taking some of the cheese she would take out and urge me to take a piece of but which was sadly old stinking cheese?

I'd have thought it rather bad manners to take (or rather, appear to take) any notice of anyone else's table manners (spilling soup over your neighbours excepted). But then, things may be different in France.

No, you are correct, Patrick. The table manners of other people are invisible to everybody in France except for PalenQ's son, who regularly appears to steer him wrong.

I think he is just screwing with him. Family issues!

Well he did not say that French thought that foreigners could not be excused for their natural behavior and I am curious about kerouac who grew up in the States and went to USC I believe before going to France.

I wonder did he abandon his natural-born American table habits the second he landed in France or did he say at school cafeterias in the U.S. or on dates eat here the way the French do, subjecting him no doubt to intense schoo ridicule?

kerouac - if you did change over as I suspect, why? Is the French way a better way of shoveling food in one's mouth - it ain't to me - neither seems advantageous - what do you think or who do you think has the best method of stuffing one's mouth - you obviously having done both ways - this is a serious question.

I assumed that everyone ate the way I did, with fork in left hand and knife in right, being used together , but on my honey moon( 25 years ago) my ex and I took a cruise. We were seated at a table with three other young American couples. We all introduced ourselves and started to chat, they all seemed very nice. Then when dinner came I remember thinking " how can such seemingly civilized people eat like THAT" .. my goodness this pretty little thing from some southern State was holding her knife in her FIST and sawing her meat, it was funny, my ex and I just looked at each other..

That is when I learned that some people eat differently. It looks awkward and a bit , er, rough. We taught our children to eat as we do.

One thing I learned in France at a young age, when fruit is put out after dinner, one does not eat it with their hands if it is whole, you still cut it up and eat it with fork. In family situations you can pick up some cut peices, but you would still cut it into managable pieces first. You could cut a plum in half to remove the stone, then eat it half at a time for example. Perhaps my family was more formal then others, sometimes people look to their own experiences as being the only way, but in any culture or country even people within it vary.

I think justineparis has managed to understand exactly what my son meant - something most others have missed - that yes French at a dinner would look shocked to see folks eat like say Barbarians!

One other point: our French friends told us to keep our hands on the table when not eating, resting the wrists at the table's edge.

Yes, europeans use their knives and forks differently than americns. Neither one is right or wrong - just different.

However, I don't know any place where it is considered correct to mop you plate with a piece of bread - ick!

As for the fruit - in the US fruit is usually a snack - not a part of dinner (unless some sort of prepared fruit dessert) - so eating with hands and mouth makes perfect sense unless it HAS to be cut. (Are you supposed to eat grapes with a knife and fork too?)

I think that anyone who has lived a sheltered existence and is unware that table manners differ from country to country would be "shocked to see folks eat like barbarians". The national origin doesn't matter. People have different customs. Suprise!

Many Americans think that the style of eating with the fork in the left and the knife in the right at all times looks barbaric. I mean, really - 2 hands in your plate at all times? Cut-shovel-cut-shovel-cut-shovel... Civilized people cut, put the knife down, then eat with their fork. Repeat. We don't think we are barbaric - we think that "they" are.

I agree though - the most important thing about table manners is to make the other people at the table feel comfortable - be polite, don't judge others because their manners are different, etc.

surely mopping up the sauce with bread is a compliment to the chef, do you mean Americans don't do this?

Regarding a lot of his ideas, often your son sounds like he is 60 years old already, PalenQ. Do you think his mother brought him up this way?

As for knife and fork, since I was always left-handed, I always kept knife in right hand and fork in left hand, the European way. You are aware, I hope, that spies have been caught in the past by not knowing how to use their utensils.

The main issue I observe is people's inability to eat with their mouth closed. This seems a much larger issue than any other differences to me.

I agree there are differences that are neither bad nor better then another.. but sorry, the sawing of meat with a knife clutched in a fist just never looks civilized.

I also think more and more young people are not being taught table manners ( perhaps because fewer and fewer North American families make or have the time for proper sit down meals, something by the way is still important in many europeon countries, especially the Sunday lunch or dinner)

Keep your mouth shut when chewing.

Do not burp loudly at table. Cover your mouth if accidently about to.. with napkin preferred.

Cut food into small peices before shoving it in your trap.

Do not sniff at your food like a dog( picky children do this, fine, but when I see, and I have, adults do this I cringe)

Its not ok to say you "hate something"or " that stuff is gross" it IS ok to say "no thank you" , or perhaps something along the line of "its not a favorite of mine". Too many kids raised that its ok to be blunt and frankly, rude. If its not something you as an adult would say at a friends dinner party why is it ok for your child to say it at your dinner table?

Wipe your mouth with napkin, not back of hand.

Interesting thread.

French husband confirms that it is polite to keep your hands above the height of the table. Now that I think of it, I have also never seen my French in-laws bite into a whole piece of fruit...they always cut it first (but are not averse to picking up the cut pieces with their fingers).

The thing of using bread to mop up excess liquid is pretty much obligatory in their house as they do not change the plates between courses normally. However, the first few times I didn't realise this, as being British we always change the plates! So as a result she did end up bringing me an extra plate. As she is very kind this was not a problem, apart from my being slightly embarrassed. Now I try to remember so that when she does offer me an extra plate I don't always have to say yes. However, this is in a private household; I don't think any French person would consider it polite when eating out in public.

There are two things that my French in-laws do that I can't stand, though:
1. They lick their knives (EW).
and 2. They talk with their mouths full (double EW...and even my husband does it more when we are with them).

However, I wouldn't attribute these horrible habits to being French

kerouac--I'm a lefty too, so eating with fork in left made me "un-American" from an early age." I always thought right-handed people were REALLY strange since we set the table with the fork on the left. DUH.

The other things that always bothered me growing up in the US were that I could never rest my arms on the table, I could not use my knife to push my food onto my fork, and heck, I not even keep my fork in my hand between bites. OK--I understood the elbow thing. But why couldn't I keep my fork in my hand while I was chewing? European rules made SO much more sense.

However, I'm laughing about your refusal to mop up sauce with bread, nytraveler. I watch Parisians, Romans, you name it, wipe that sauce up the plate at the most upscale of restaurants. Yes, most do it with the fork; others just go right to it.

Eating fruit in France depends on the circumstances. City people do tend to cut up their fruit. You will usually not see the same thing out in rural areas.

My Dordogne neighbors don't tend to cut their fruit. But they do eat pizza with a knife and fork.

Alessandra, I am also a lefty and agree that it makes the most sense since that's where the fork lives.

I grew up in Virginia where folks routinely used their bread or their biscuit to mop the plate...the juice was called "soppy" and you "sopped" it up with the bread. Naturally, this practice was frowned upon by my mother and we were not allowed to do it EXCEPT when she was out playing bridge and my dad was in charge of dinner.

"But they do eat pizza with a knife and fork" there is another way?

Well, bilbo, judging by the number of people I see walking down the street here in DC cramming pizza slices in their mouths, I'd have to say yes. I much prefer to knife and fork, but I hardly ever eat pizza, so am not an expert.

Since I only like pizza with a super thin crust, eating it with a knife and fork is the only way that I could ever eat it.

Walking down the street and eating snacks is not quite so common in Europe, yes an ice cream cone, but most locals wouldn't be eating pizza and walking. They would picnic, sit on a bench, a patch of grass, a low wall, most anything other then running down the street eating something like that. Things are changing though..

I'm aware of that, but Americans don't typically use knife and fork with pizza when eating it in a restaurant, either.

My Dordogne neighbors don't tend to cut their fruit. But they do eat pizza with a knife and fork.>

And my in-laws eat a salad - the same ole salad everytime - pieces of leaf lettuce with a few tomatoes and onions, etc. - they eat that with a knife and fork even though the pieces are usually cut up small enough for just a fork to manage.

I often snickered to myself how my French in-laws were attacking their lettuce salad just like a thick steak (which I never saw them serve ever - usually meat was some kind of rump roads, chicken, etc. only doled out after some salad and veggies were served and then doled out by the piece - one for each person with gravy then ladeled over it.

and yes of course bread should not - in my in-laws case, ever be torn like we want to do to a baguette sometimes but neatly sliced before doling it out.

and yes they do use bread as a utensil and a mop to mop up their plates - I never ever failed to see my in-laws do that- at least in their homes. They often remarked 'a French person cannot each without the use of bread as a utensil!

Well this American grew up with parents who thoroughly schooled us kids in table manners. This was to prepare us for the fancy restaurant we'd dine in at our hotel in Bermuda. We were told if we had rude table manners at the restaurant that a man would walk up behind us and loudly ring a bell over our heads to alert the other patrons to the presence of rude diners. Needless to say it didn't take me long to not give a damn about whether I held my knife and fork properly, where my hands were, what I did with the bread or generally care what other people thought of my dining etiquette, as long as I chewed with my mouth closed. My French and Italian in-laws have never reprimanded me for my table manners.

No mopping up sauce with bread is NOT a compliment to the chef. It does make it look like the diner hasn't had a meal for several days and is going to eat everything not nailed down - possibly pulling leftovers from other people's plates.

the worst I have seen was a (potential) MIL who served ice cram for dessert in huge mounds, which naturally melted before they could be eaten. She then proceeded to lick the plate clean - leaving ice cream on her nose and around her mouth. And yes, she licked that off too. The only one I had seen do so before that was my dog - who had no excuse - not having hands/being able to use utencils.

I am actually a bit torn over the mopping issue, as when I eat at home with French friends, they all tend to use a piece of baguette to mop up any sloppiness. But not so much in restaurants, though I have seen in happen in both casual and fairly fancy places. My own instinct would be not to do it in a place with tablecloths, but for sure to do it at a beach-side place in Bouziques where the mussel broth was just amazing! I wouldn't care WHO saw me!

I only use my knife when I need it.

Never rest my elbows on the table

Would never think twice about using bread to pick up some extremely good sauce from a plate. It's so much better than picking up the plate and giving it a good licking.

I use a knife and fork to eat pizza because I hate getting my hands messy. I'd eat everything but fruit that way if I could.

nytraveler, you are a wise woman to have broken the leash from that P-MIL

A lot of these things have changed over time, from what I vaguely remember about, say, mediaeval instructions on table manners (i.e., before the widespread use of the fork); and they have been class markers, of course, and differences between what you would do en famille and out at a formal event. I like StCirq's idea of using tablecloths as a marker for the boundary between the two.

Cutting everything up first seems, if anything, a bit childish to me, even if you're doing it for yourself. But cutting up large fruit, for example, just seems like a thoughtful thing to do for guests (and children) - especially if the original fruit is all different shapes and sizes.

I once read a description of Joyce Grenfell invited to dinner with a student club at Sydney in Australia after she'd given a talk there. She had been brought up with Edwardian high society manners (her mother was Nancy Astor's sister), and all the students watch transfixed as she ate a pear by holding the top with a fork and then expertly twirling it against the knife so that the skin came off in a single perfect ribbon, before she cut it to pieces to eat.

What an interesting thread! I had no idea how many ways I have apparently offended people over the years!

The first time I dined alone at a NICE restaurant was in Philadelphia. I was very uncomfortable about the idea of dining alone in an upscale establishment, but it seemed better than the alternatives that were available to me on that particular evening. The hostess and waiter made me feel very welcome. As I had requested, they seated me at a quiet table with lighting that was discreet, but bright enough to allow me to read.

I ordered a salad and duck with plum sauce, naively assuming that what I had ordered was a duck breast and that it would be sliced. So, while eating my salad, I was horrified to see someone being served a plate with a half-duck on it. OMG, how could I possibly manage to discretely and politely deal with that!?!

Even as I began to panic, I noticed that a couple seated in my line of vision was being given their entrées, and each was having the duck. This couple had caught my attention earlier because their dress and manners seemed so elegant. Such good fortune – I could discreetly watch what they did!

You might imagine my dismay when each of them picked up the half-duck with their bare hands and began gnawing away. Seriously! Within moments, their faces (from forehead to chin and cheek to cheek) and their arms (from hands to elbows+) were covered in sticky sauce.

What a freeing moment! I realized that NOTHING I could do would be THAT far out of the realm of (my idea of) acceptable behavior. I might not know the BEST way to approach my food, but I would at least be discreet and as polite as I knew how to be!

When I travel, I try to make sure I know if there are any strongly held norms that govern dining ettiquette (e.g., the placement of chopsticks in Asia or the use of right/left hands in predominantly Muslim countries); other than that, I count on (and have been treated with) gracious tolerance, and I proceed with blissful ignorance of my improprieties.

"knife clutched in a fist"

Little children or poorly trained adults perhaps, I don't know anyone over 5 who does this.

And you haven't even yet talked about properly eating (long) pasta with fork and spoon...

>Recently whilst eating out in a restaurant my son said that in France it was considered to be rude to not use both your fork and your knife in combo when eating - to use just a fork, as many Americans do, was considered rude or crude - just not proper table manners.

The same applies to Germany, by the way.

a spoon! (think "handbag" and Oscar Wilde) what do you do with a spoon and pasta?

Unless you are in a fancy restaurant then using bread to mop up what's on your plate is perfectly acceptable in France. They even have a verb for it, called "saucer".

Cathiejoetown, I am of course labelling people who eat like that as "poorly trained adults", and I have seen it more then that once.. its not as uncommon as it should be.

I read that the custom of keeping your hands above the table is related to medievel times when keeping your hands in sight meant you weren't holding a weapon at the ready out of sight.

Justine I've seen that technique you described on several US tv shows. I've always been amazed by it.

what do you do with a spoon and pasta?

This is not a real question, is it?

Re: Pizza...

Where I grew up (Philadelphia, east coast, US, in the 1950s), you NEVER used a knife and fork on pizza -- that would identify you as a (gasp!) country bumpkin. East coast urban/suburban areas have large Italian-American populations, so, I learned by watching friends and neighbors in the local pizza joints.

(The exception being if it is way too hot and you don't want to wait to have a taste or two with utensils.)

Always pick it up. If the crust is very thin, fold it a little (U-shape) and that works without difficulty.

Another interesting item is spaghetti. I grew up twirling it with fork and spoon; now I twirl with just a fork. My wife (and her family, who came from small-town USA) eat spaghetti by cutting it with the side of the fork and shoveling. I have always (half in jest) given them a hard time about that.

Of course, I would never be so rude as to accuse house guests of being crude in their eating habits. And when I am in Europe, I use the knife-right-fork-left-at-the-same-time method.

SS

In France at least, I don't think people use a spoon to twirl pasta. I know that in my family we only ever used just a fork.

kerouac...

Ahh, yes...I recall now that on our trips to Paris, I did notice that they didn't twirl...and I pointed that out to my wife, which made her feel better about my past teasing.

SS

...and my wife (who is in the room with me now) just corrected me -- she always twirls pasta now -- hasn't use the cut and shovel method on pasta in many years...I feel like such a bonehead!!!

SS

"And you haven't even yet talked about properly eating (long) pasta with fork and spoon..."

All manners are regional. This is apparently a Southern Italian custom, not a universal Italian custom, though it may have spread over the years. I have certainly seen Romans looking askance at people doing this.

I would use bread to eat the last of a delicious sauce, but I would break the bread into bite-sized pieces, put them on the plate, and eat them with a fork or spoon if it were something like mussel broth.

However regional, manners are important. It is widely believed that one of the reasons Lawrence Summers got fired as President of Harvard was his reportedly abominable table manners. I always had a meal with candidates for professional jobs and have turned down highly qualified people because I did not want them to represent us in public becaause of the way they ate.

My wife and son eat as if they were British, though they don't pile mashed potatoes on top of their meat and then push in the peas. My daughter and I eat American style.

The aim of all these customs is to avoid offending others (and protect one's necktie!) by conveying food to one's mouth in a way that minimizes the possibility of dropping food in one's lap or spraying it around the table by talking with one's mouth open.

I find it funny that having sorted out that we can all wear giant white sneakers and yoga pants in Paris that we should be worried about looking like Americans when we eat. Of course we look like Americans.

>>they don't pile mashed potatoes on top of their meat and then push in the peas. <<

But how does one get the peas on the knife, otherwise?

Patrick...haha...good point.
SS

So let me get this right, you stick the fork into the pasta and drive that into a spoon and swirl the fork around. Why not just use the plate, it's not as if the food is going to run away?

Still I (and ten other young men) watched a very attractive psychiatrist eat an un-peeled banana with knife and fork, but she was just messing with our heads.

>> it's not as if the food is going to run away? <<

Well, spaghetti does tend to have a mind of its own.

But seriously, the only reason to worry about table manners is if the person you're eating with feels they're eating not with you, but with the way you eat. And for most people there's no reason to feel that unless you're treating them to the sight of your chewed-up food, the sound of your digestion, or unwanted sharing of what you're eating.

Italians eat spaghetti just with the fork. It's a lot easier with fork and spoon but a spoon must be requested. Luckily they accept the use of the spoon by tourists - as I am hopeless with just the fork I need one.

I have met quite a number of young Americans who felt perfectly okay chewing their food with their mouths open. Now that was really disgusting and made me wonder about their education. Is that really common? Can't be, I hope.

To clarify...

I twirl spaghetti with just a fork (twirled on the plate) -- like Italians.

My wife, who use to cut-and-shovel, now twirls with a fork on the spoon.

...and there is always a bit of pasta dangling from the fork the needs to be helped up with the fork after the main batch is in the mouth...or it can be slurped.

...am I giving too much information?

SS

BTW...we're going to Venice in May...what's the local way of eating pizza there...knife-and-fork or pick-up-and-bite?

SS

Luckily they accept the use of the spoon by tourists

On the contrary -
In the 1950s with the advent of mass tourism to Italy, tourists were given (no kiddin'!) scissors to cut the long spaghetti into something they could eat with just the forks! Or they cut them in halves with the knife.

Whether or not you use the spoon is your business.
But it is the default silverware you will get - even in high-end Italian restaurants (outside Italy).

If you can do it with just the fork, fine. If not, use the spoon for assistance. But not in my presence, please:
I hate the fork and spoon method, as it often makes that screeching sound of metal against metal which drives me up the wall.

No one has mentioned the "correct" way to eat soup--is this just common knowledge? I was taught to move the spoon away from one's lap, so as to not to have any mishaps of spilled soup, yet I almost always see people moving the spoon toward their mouth (and lap).

I have read, traditionally, NO SPOON for spaghetti. The following thread somewhat confirms it.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187768-i20-k2437811-How_do_Italians_eat_Spaghetti_Spoon_or_no_spoon-Italy.html

kerouac: my inlaws are southern (Rhone valley) so not sure what your point was about rural vs urban fruit-cutting...unless your comment wasn't aimed at me?

FrenchMystiqueTours: I have never heard the verb "saucer" for the process of mopping up sauce with bread. Is it from any particular region? The only verb I have heard for this is "souper"...which means the Virginia "soppy" above makes perfect sense to me

PatrickLondon: let me refer you to the following poem regarding peas...! http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/171639

Fourfortravel: I'm British, and was taught this also regarding soup, but this isn't something I've seen in France.

No, you are correct, Patrick. The table manners of other people are invisible to everybody in France except for PalenQ's son, who regularly appears to steer him wrong.>

Well I think the comments of French folk here simply debunk what kerouac says - seems my son was indeed correct - that many French and Europeans take umbrage with table manners of Americans - several posts from bona fide French folks above agree with this - my son grew up in France -kerouac grew up in the U.S. perhaps that is why he just does not get how the average bona fide French person thinks.

In the US pizza counts as a sandwich equivalent and is eaten with just the hands. In Itay I have often seen in eaten with knife and fork - but we use hands since it's always a casual place.

But I know eating with the hands tends to be less common in eutope.

We took a visiting German colleague out to lunch at a Chinese restaurant - and I can only assume his town didn't have one or he had never eaten there. And while we went merrily along eating the appetizers with our hands he tried to do it all with knife and fork. the curled lettuce leaf appetizers were almost as good as the ribs. then when we got the peking duck pancakes!!!

bdsb - Not being French I can't tell you if saucer is a regional word but my French wife assures me it is an actual word.

<<perhaps that is why he just does not get how the average bona fide French person thinks.>>

As in the "average bona fide French person>> doesn't know that <<A chacun son gout>> is correct.

The "French son" is somewhat the legend here on Fodor's for not having a clue about France or French.

As for "saucer," that's the word my French friends/neighbors use also. Along with "faire chabrol (or chabrot)" when soup's involved.

my French son says (yes we know he does not know anything about France!) that he never heard of either soucer or souper used to describe the mopping up on the plate with bread. He can think of no one word to describe it.

Saucer is proper French and definitely not regional.
"Souper" does not mean mopping up. It means "late dinner".
There is a special spoon called 'cuillère à sauce".

Saucer is proper French and definitely not regional.
"Souper" does not mean mopping up. It means "late dinner".
There is a special spoon called 'cuillère à sauce".

Let's talk about butter too.

Do you take some butter (with the butter knife, of course) and put it on your bread plate, then break up the bread and use the butter on your bread plate in smaller bits or do you take a whole chunk of butter and slather that on an entire piece of bread and then break up the bread?

If we're talking about France, it's not particularly customary to eat butter with bread. In America, where it is, I break the bread up first, and if I'm going to use butter, which I often don't, I butter the small bits.

I've never seen anyone served butter with the bread at a restaurant so it wouldn't even be an option unless you asked. And then you might get a strange look but I imagine they'd still bring you the butter.

I've witnessed Americans dining in France who were astonished that butter wasn't brought with their bread and called the waiter over to say he had "forgotten it." Yikes.

^^ He probably forgot to put ice in their drinks too.

StCirq,

Since you bring up the expression à chacun sont goût, here's what I wrote to French friends (residing in France) and their replies:

There is an argument going on among English speakers who know French with the claim by one side that à chacun son goût is an archaic expression. Is that true?

It doesn't immediately strike me as archaic, but I confess I don't recall hearing or reading it anywhere recently.

Let's say that it either that (an archaic) expression or never much of a French expression. The 4 first pages of an "à chacun son goût" query to Google contain only English-speaking sites. The "Trésor de la Langue Française" does not have any occurrence of it in its corpus. "chacun ses goûts" is a relatively common expression, and most of the examples
quoted on sites for "à chacun son goût" are plain wrong.

The real expression is chacun son gout (without the a that makes it sound strange). Not archaic at all.

A chacun son goût is not really an archaic expression. I use it frequently.

No it is not true….

Je dirais plutôt: “à chacun ses goûts”, au pluriel donc. Assez peu usité, en somme, mais non pas à proprement parler archaïque. De la même façon, on utilise de moins en moins la formule: “Des goûts et des couleurs on ne dispute pas”...

The only person to say that he uses the expression regularly is a former French cultural attaché.

Look these forums are crazy, right now there is a thread on customs and behaviours in Paris and apparently some insist it IS customary to get butter with bread, I personally have never noticed it being so , but am assured I am likely incorrect. lol

I am French born and raised (Paris region) of French parents and personally the only expression I have ever known is "chacun ses goûts". I have never heard anyone around me use any other form.
Véronique

easytraveler asked: "Do you take some butter (with the butter knife, of course) and put it on your bread plate...?"

What bread plate?

Wherever you go, get the food from plate to mouth as effortlessly and neatly as possible. Keeping in mind that noodles, like cats, have minds of their own.

is one supposed to eat a hamburger and fries with a knife and fork also ?

One can if one wants to.

harvmatic, I never order burgers in any sit down places in , France( they are not the same so why bother) but if you get one from a fast food place like McDonalds of course you would eat it with your hands,same as fries, , in a restaurant or cafe its up to you. Frankly if its just you and your travel companion at a cafe for lunch eat it however you please ..

I tend to pick up my fries but many do eat them with a fork, again take context into mind,, if you are served fries with your steak at a nice restaurant, then I would definately use a fork, but in a cafe or bistro as a side with my sandwich or mussels, then I would likely just use my hands. If your fries are soggy cause the juice from your meat spreads onto them, use your fork, just use common sense really. .

You mean it is possible to eat a hamburger in a restaurant? Surely just some sort of expanded road shack.

Still the tricky one for me is curried mussels in their shell. Mrs Bilbo had it (in a cream curry sauce) in some benighted French town and had green fingers for the rest of the holiday.

I am an American who has lived in Germany for nearly 22 years. I still eat "American style" and have never had anyone comment on it.

Fries, however, are eaten with a fork here. I admit I have adopted that habit.

Of course it is proper to use a knife and fork together when you eat - even out here in the former colonies (Australia)our proper English ancestors taught us right from wrong.

Although I must admit that other members of my family find it a little challenging when I bring out the silver fish knives for a particular meal.

Put a large piece of butter on the bread and butter plate, then butter individual small pieces of bread as you break / tear them off when about to eat them - and by all means use them to mop up sauce / gravy, but do not use it to polish your plate clean.

Eat pizza with knife and fork whenever sitting at a table.

Snails held with those ridiculous clamps, with the innards plucked with that silly little fork (OK - that was a one-time affectation!)

And use chopsticks to eat Chinese food!

But the emerging issue in Europe is surely how to eat horse, and whether it should be served as an entree, or always as the mane course

I lived with a French family as an au pair 30 years ago, and sometimes had dinner (or the mid-day Saturday meal) with them. At the time I was used to keeping my left hand in my lap and out of sight, after years of "get your elbow off the table!" What I heard instead, over and over, was "put your hands on the table!" (It was directed at the 12- and 9-year-old boys at the table, not at me, but each time I would duly park my wrist on the table.) I can still hear the exasperated voice in my head, and to this day, I keep my left hand above the table. It makes it easier to sit straight.

<There is an argument going on among English speakers who know French with the claim by one side that à chacun son goût is an archaic expression. Is that true?

It doesn't immediately strike me as archaic, but I confess I don't recall hearing or reading it anywhere recently.>

exactley what my son said - not archaic and just not used and saounded awkward - sounds like an oxymoron but he agrees with the quote from another bona fide French person quoted above.

That St Cirq insists it is used in daily parlance well that is what she has experienced - but few bona fide French people would concur. And bona fide French people would also know that hypermarches do indeed make and sell good bread - an idea she ridiculed recently and was contradicted by several bona fide French folks.

Speaking French and being French often results in two different ideas.

Okay. Being an Irish expat, now living in the States, I grew up using the knife and fork together, and still generally gravitate to that mode. I am your basic meat, potatoes and bread......any kind of bread, preferably with butter.....person, but am willing to explore the local cuisine to a certain extent. Escargot,pate, soft cheeses and frogs legs are out, but I will try just about anything else. I love stews, salads and fish and I love baguettes. I will explore eating a panini and a crepe or two from a sreet vendor, but I'm not big on a lot of sauces. What should I look for in a brasserie ? I'm thinking bouillaise, cassoulet ,Bouef Bourguignon, Coq au vin, ratatouille and perhaps Pot-au-feu (from the "Paris for Dummies" book), my daughter gave me for Xmas. Am I on the right track ?

STCirq: If we're talking about France, it's not particularly customary to eat butter with bread.

They don't have butter in France?

Padraig: What bread plate?

Oh, well, seeing that plates didn't arrive in Europe until Meissen found out how to make them in the 18th century, I can understand.

Do we place the butter on the table then?

bendigo: But the emerging issue in Europe is surely how to eat horse, and whether it should be served as an entree, or always as the mane course

Very, very good!

Are pedigree horses used for the more expensive hamburgers?

A more common expression is "Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas."

Going back up the thread quite some distance, I would like to tell all of you that in my 35 years of working for a Middle Eastern company, I saw a big change in the Arab world -- there are very many left-handed people now and there is no dishonor at all in using one's left hand if you are not in a peasant village.

Back in 1999-2000 we were blessed with neighbors from France. We had them over to dinner, and the first thing the father said after sampling the boeuf bourguignon was "Is there more bread? We're French!" When we visit them there is always lots of excellent fresh bread from the local bakery (or, sometimes, Auchan), and we do use the bread to mop up any errant sauce on the plate.

At one restaurant meal we were offered 3 different kinds of bread to complement the cheeses we chose.

Last night I watched a programme where 30 Michelin star chefs dined together. Without exception they all used the bread to mop up the sauce. I think most chefs are delighted to see super clean plates come back to the kitchen, wouldn't they regard it as a compliment?

Of course. They have wonderful butter in France (think Norman cows). They just don't tend to spread it on bread, unless they're making tartines.

Eating boeuf bourguignon without being able to wipe up the sauce with the bread would be total heresy in France.

My family does eat butter with radishes, I have always eaten it that way too.

Yes, butter with radishes and with ham. Just not with bread.

And we, along with all our friends in the Perigord wipe up the sauce with the bread. Then use the same plate for salad/cheese.

Butter is sometimes served with a breakfast basket--croissant, baguette, jam, etc.

Also with a smoked salmon appetizer.

You get bread while you wait, in case you're hungry, but not usually butter with it. Whether that's to stop you feeling too satiated before your order arrives, or to make sure your tastebuds aren't coated with butter, or just plain meanness, I don't know.

Butter is ALWAYS served with breakfast bread.

Butter is also served with roquefort.

StCirq wrote on Feb 11, 13 at 4:15pm
"In America, where it is [customary to eat butter with bread], I break the bread up first, and if I'm going to use butter, . . . I butter the small bits."

This is what well-brought up people have been taught to do at least since the 19th century. There are companies that teach such things to people who want to be senior managers and haven't learned it at home. It's no shame not to know this stuff. It's just a shame not to pick up on it as you get older since it does matter.

Sorry, I have missed a day of being stuffy owing to trying to get home "post-blizzard." I'll make every effort to catch up.

Of course. They have wonderful butter in France (think Norman cows). They just don't tend to spread it on bread, unless they're making tartines.>

My French son said that was a bunch of baloney (to use a family-friendly word) and that at breakfast most French he knows slather butter on bread - certainly all my French in-laws I have breakfasted with do and lots of it.

Well its true that I have always seen butter is always served with breakfast but I think the butter/bread debate here is whether it is served with bread at lunch or dinner, from my perosnal experience the answer is no to that.. but if you order a plate of cold meats butter is often on the plate with the meats and pates , as saucisson and butter on bread is yum.

My dad grew up in France, breakfast was a BOWL of milky coffee, bread and butter, and then in his family ( so I have no idea how rude or normal this is as everyone is different) he would dip bread and butter in coffee, and even break bread butter up and throw it in coffee,,sorry I know, it sounds disgusting.

He has lived in Canada since he was 30 ( he is elderly now) and still drinks coffee out his bowls.. his mom kept him supplied with them because apparently in barbaric Canada we did not have proper bowls for coffee.. lol

you mop up your plate using your folk in the bread

We still use bowls for breakfast coffee in France. Actually, any Americans that I have hosted in Paris have absolutely loved drinking their coffee out of the traditional French coffee bowls.

As for what you can dunk, in small villages you will see people dunking camembert tartines into their café au lait.

I have no idea how rude or normal this is as everyone is different) he would dip bread and butter in coffee, and even break bread butter up and throw it in coffee,,sorry I know, it sounds disgusting>

sounds kind of like the trompez au lait (sp? my in-laws make with day old bread - but in milk - bits of old bread in milk - a constant thing my ex-wife would serve herself and my son - I never got much a liking for it.

My family does eat butter with radishes, I have always eaten it that way too>

Butter with radishes always got me - why take a low caloric veg and put tons of butter - yes butter not margarine in my in-laws houses - just a weird practice IME.

It's to offset the bite of the radish. Salt and radishes go well together too.

The problem is that the bite has been bred out of the radishes, which I personally think is a shame.

About "wrists on the table", (I have told this tale before on the Forum), when I was first married to my "Practice Wife" in the States, we went to Paris as a belated honeymoon. When had worked in Paris for a number of years, and part of the trip was for her to display her new hubby to her French friends. We went to the home of her former boss for dinner, along with all of her close friends.

I felt distinctly uncomfortable, under their collective gazes. I knew I was being tested, and was carefully displaying my best American table manners, including having my left hand firmly clamped in my lap.

The host noticed, and snidely tested me as he said, "What are you doing over there with your hand below the table; playing with yourself?"

Luckily, I had just enough French to answer, "But no, Monsieur, I'm playing with your wife."

The table exploded with laughter, as I passed the test. The rest of the evening went splendidly.

nukesafe, that was the perfect retort!

kerouac, who should know, writes:
"We still use bowls for breakfast coffee in France. Actually, any Americans that I have hosted in Paris have absolutely loved drinking their coffee out of the traditional French coffee bowls."

But this is at home, isn't it? I don't think I have ever seen anyone drinking coffee from a bol in public. A Canadian friend was disappointed not to get morning coffee in a bowl when in Paris; it is apparently commonly served that way in cafes in Quebec.

I was in hospital last November in St. Gaudens. Breakfast every morning was coffee and hot milk in a bowl, thin cello-wrapped melba toast slices and a packet of apricot jam. Not much but you don't need much when just hanging around in bed all day. The coffee was great.

I was just thinking about a cultural dead giveaway that I mentioned a few years ago whereby I mightily annoyed my American hostess. I told her "I see you are using dessert forks instead of dessert spoons, just like an American." She was so certain that she had done everything the French way.

Yes, dessert forks do exist in France, but "normal" people will set out a spoon for the dessert, which can also be used to stir coffee if it is also served at the end of the meal. However, people from certain other cultures seem to find it impossible to eat pastry with a spoon, even though this is much more suitable for sloppy items like a fraisier or a lot of the other cream-filled items.

I eat my peas with honey
I've done it all my life
It makes the peas taste funny
But it keeps them on the knife!

Spike Milligan

"But this is at home, isn't it? I don't think I have ever seen anyone drinking coffee from a bol in public."

Le Pain Quotidien serves breakfast coffee in bowls.

Having lived in Paris, I don't see any issue with the fork/knife question. I've also only really experienced the mopping up with bread outside of Paris--some French people prefer a sauce spoon. The one aspect of table manners that I have noticed is that, in France, it can be considered rude to keep your hands under the table during a meal. Most French people I've encountered prefer to keep the forearms on the table. Or, as one French person put it, "We always wonder what the Americans are doing with their hands under the table."

But this is at home, isn't it? I don't think I have ever seen anyone drinking coffee from a bol in public>

Yes that is my experience as well and always with the coffee, served at the end of our meals mi-mere would also always have some kind of packaged cookies -usually mass brand square cookies, which were at times way past the use by date.

I have never seen coffee bowls in a restaurant or café, but I would not deny that they must certainly exist in a few places -- if only to be "original." It's a shame because I would love a café au lait to be served in a bowl. It would be a bit silly for an espresso, however.

Only place I can think of is a youth hostel in Dijon--in 1972!

I drink my cafe au lait from a bowl when home but have ordered in France a few times and and was served in a bowl and usually at the B&Bs I've been given my au lait in a bowl.
The old bowls are very expensive. At one time I collected them but when my finances took a downhill, I sold them.

But the new bowls are very cheap -- Monoprix is full of them for about 2 euros and any bazaar store in Paris sells them for 1 euro.

Yes, I can imagine that a gite rural would use bowls at breakfast.

Forearms on the table, but never elbows.

Oh, hooey! Everybody I know in Paris puts their arms, elbows and hands anywhere they want. What really counts is what their feet and thighs are doing under the table.

I haven't followed this whole thread, but I just wanted to share a photograph of...

BUTTER

http://ldnatm.blogspot.com/2013/02/butter.html

I snapped this photo during my lunch at Les Ambassadeurs at the Crillon Hotel in 2008.

Knowing this is Fodor's, I'm sure that the thread will now be replete with theories that

(1) they brought me butter because I was foreign
(2) they brought butter because it had two Michelin stars (not sure what the current rating is)
(3) I asked for the butter but conveniently forgot

And who knows what else.

For the record, I rarely use butter, and that's why I notice it, especially when it's presented beautifully. Some restaurants even give you different kinds of butter.

Butter is not some strange American custom, I dare say.

Another theory

(4) I photoshopped the photograph with butter from an American restaurant.

It's not that butter isn't some strange American custom. It's perfectly normal for many countries in Europe to serve butter with bread. Just not so much France, at breakfast, IME. I would imagine the Crillon serves so many people from all over the world, they serve butter because many of their international clients expect it.

At a "normal" resto in the Dordogne or Provence or Normandie or otherwise "out in the provinces," it would be unusual to be served butter for lunch or dinner, though you would always get bread.

Ok, when butter came up initially, that question had nothing to do with breakfast. So let's get this straight.

I knew some version of the various reasons I'd offered would come up, and you've conflated #1 and #2. While we're at it, I also forgot to add a preemptive #5 -- I took the photo at an American restaurant but forgot and thought it was Les Ambassadeurs.

Seriously, what goes on in this forum is just a bit much. But I'll grant you that your response is not as ridiculous as, say, "I've never seen anyone served butter with the bread at a restaurant so it wouldn't even be an option unless you asked."

Blooming heck! What you all do at home is your business! However, good table manners are part of fine dining etiquette and make eating out for those round about you a pleasant experience.
So here's the European normal table manners etiquette:
cutlery in the right hands,
hands above the table but no elbows,
eating with one's mouth closed and no talking while eating (a pet hate),
breaking bread into pieces to mop up sauces at meals other than breakfast,
serve oldest woman first,
try eat everything you are served, unless the portion is too large, and never say you don't like food unl
children must engage with adults and behave well at table or parents should remove them from the table (my father would take my son for a walk in between courses and I always had drawing materials, plastic animals and small books to keep him entertained but still engaged)
No electronic games or telephones during mealtimes.
No eating before grace is said and until the person serving (at home) has sat down to eat.
I think that's the lot!

<<No eating before grace is said...>>

Are you freaking kidding? Grace? I've been to Europe probably 150 times, owned a house there for 20 years, have countless European friends and acquaintances in whose houses I've had meals, hosted innumerable meals at my own home there, and never once been exposed to a "saying grace moment." What about European Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and so forth, for whom grace isn't even really a concept?

Sorry, but what a conceptually narrow-minded idea. Really mind-boggling. Can't we all just agree to have our morning café crème in a bowl?

Smodaig must know only real dévots in France.

Well, finally a moment of grace in this thread!

How do plastic toys, coloring books etc keep child more engaged with other people, then a small muted hand held electronic game,( unless you mean an adult has to interact with child playing with said items and there fore not able to be free to chat to other adults) , in fact its a bit hard on staff at restaurant to serve food if your child has all his toys and coloring stuff set up .. I think you are just old and prejudiced against something more modern. I personally do not think a child over 10 needs anything to "keep them busy" except at a very long ( more then two hours) meal. I also don't think it would be appropriate or fair to expect a 6-10 yr old to sit for more then 2 hours, really even more then 1.5 hours. I find it hard to believe any child 5 or under would be expected to sit at a long formal meal and are best being fed in bistros and cafes where meal times are under an hour. Many thats my old fashioned part.

I find at some dinner parties the conversations after folks have a bit of wine are not appropriate for children to hear, especially very young children . I have witnessed adults laughing over risque officeneighborhood gossip( whos cheating on their wife, and which receptionist wears low cut tops etc) with young kids at table. I don't think people mean to , but I just think after 2 glasses of wine many peoples "filters" come off and its not always cool for kids to be included.

I am 100% French and really:
- grace is not said in France except maybe in the most conservative families (less than 1% of the population)
- butter is never served with bread before a meal at regular restaurants (except Michelin starred restaurants but I have never eaten at one so I can only base this assumption on other people's testimonials). Butter is served with certain dishes (assiette de charcuterie, seafood platters, etc) and only as part of these dishes (and of course butter is a major component of French breakfasts).
- while table manners differ from country to country, their strict observance has more to do with social class than nationality. It seems to me that some posters on this thread must be dining only with nobility, diplomats or more generally speaking with the upper crust, who, let's not forget, represent a minority of the population.
Véronique

I was talking about the difference between eating at home (where things are more relaxed) and eating in company/out. Maybe it's a class thing? Or a UK thing? But my experience of eating in the UK and in Europe is as described. I'd never considered it before, and wouldn't dream of allowing my child to eat sloppily and be inconsiderate to other diners - they have paid to eat too.
If you are away with kids, it is a family holiday and the kids have as much right to be there, but they need entertained/exercised between courses if they are slow in coming, and of course you need adults to interact - I was thinking of under 6s. Kids really shouldn't go to dinner parties, but long family lunches allow families to chat and bond, especially if you have a hectic schedule of after-school activities during term-time. Electronc gadgets are fine for long journeys, but make kids disengage and they might as well be in their room, so only if the child is to be seen and not heard in adult company. I agree that 10+ should be able to enjoy adult company, but the adults need to be mindful of who is there.
As far as adults who have imbibed a bit much, you choose your company! Saying that my uncle is an alcoholic and is outrageous in adult company, but I never remember him being risqué when we were kids - it probably just went over our heads! But we only saw him once a year!
Longer meals are the norm in France, Spain and Italy and families and friends of all ages enjoy them - indeed many families enjoy extended meals on Saturday evenings and Sunday lunches in the UK. My child, nephews and nieces all enjoy sitting together with the adults and chat animatedly and eat what's put in front of them and enjoy the time together and they are aged 4-13.
With many families eating ready meals/TV dinners, and take away foods in front of the box - away from the dining table, or separately at different times and mum preparing different meals for faddy children, it's not surprising that some kids & adults don't know to behave at table.

'No eating until the person serving (at home) has sat down to eat.' - this part is right.

I agree with nona1, people should wait till host sits, and even at home at casual meals that rule stands.

Absolutely, it seems such basic courtesy, nothing to do with any cultural table manners.

As I said earlier table RULES can depend on country and social class but in France table MANNERS transcend any class in that anyone that wasn't raised by wolves will know how to behave respectfully of others: waiting for the person serving to sit down before eating, not speaking with your mouth full, not toying with your cell phone, cutting the cheese so as not to leave only the rind to other people, etc, do these really need to be stated in writing, is is not just common sense / basic politeness? I am from a working class / lower middle-class background and have been friends (not just acquaintances) with people ranging from what some would call "white trash", "rednecks", to royal princesses and everything in between and we have all been taught the same basics.

Some major social differences in France are that in high social circles such as nobility:
- dessert is only eaten with a fork (even for ice-cream) and using a spoon is a clear sign that you are a commoner. For the rest of the population, which is the vast majority, people use a dessert spoon and most restaurants, even high end ones, will bring a spoon rather than a fork.
- a knife should never be used to push food against the fork, only bread is allowed (whereas using the knife seems to be good manners in the UK). In other social circles, there is no rule but using bread is more common anyway.
- mopping sauce with bread is acceptable only if using the fork. For anyone else, using your hands is common and perfectly acceptable.
- one of my noble friends told me that when she was a teenager she wanted to help and served wine to guests. Her uncle said nothing but asked her to follow her into the kitchen. There he violently slapped her in the face to teach her that a lady is never to touch a bottle of alcohol! Now that is just one particular anecdote and I don't know if this rule is observed by most nobles attached to tradition or if that Marquis was a little extreme...

Of course, nobles know how to adapt and frequently break their rules when they are in more casual settings or restaurants but instinctively abide by them when among themselves in more formal circumstances.


The main cultural differences between France and the US or UK are that in France:
- you place the fork face down
- your hands should be on the table, not on your lap and elbows should never rest on the table (this is taught in any family but whether it is enforced at home will depend on the family. Many people know it is not done in public but will find it acceptable at home or in casual settings, while other families will not accept it even at home)
- no bread is to be eaten before a meal, regardless of social background: in high society it is a definite no no, in lower circles it just comes down to grandma's good old warning about not ruining your appetite before a meal. So the fact that bread and butter are served in high end Michelin starred restaurants seems to indicate that they indeed cater to an international clientèle.

Despite the original post, there is NO RULE whatsoever about using both knife and fork rather than the fork alone, etc. In high circles, it is only stated that if a knife is not needed the fork should be held in the right hand and if a knife is needed then the knife is held in the right hand and the fork in the left hand. There is absolutely no obligation to keep a knife if your hands if there is nothing to cut on the plate.
Bread pieces should be torn by hand, never cut with a knife. If bread such as a baguette needs to be cut, it is cut in the kitchen before being presented on the table in a basket.

All that being said, one of the most basic rules in politeness is to make others feel comfortable. Therefore if someone were to use the wrong glass or wrong fork and were chastised for their ignorance, the only rude person would be the one chastising them. Another thing is if you do something that you are not comfortable with, you will look awkward and that is worse than any supposed faux-pas you could make. For instance, the fork in the bread to mop sauce looks so ridiculous TO ME that if I were in a setting where it wasn't acceptable to mop the bread with my hands I would rather not mop at all than use a fork.
Véronique

Your noble friend's noble uncle needs his head examined, after an equally violent slap in the face.

Just goes to show domestic violence is not exclusive to the "lower classes."

"dessert is only eaten with a fork (even for ice-cream) and using a spoon is a clear sign that you are a commoner."

Depends on the dessert......try eating crème brûlée or île flottante with a fork !
I've neverr seen or heard of ice-cream being eaten with a fork.
There are special spoons for it and they are called "cuillères à glace".

Cathinjoetown,

Yep, seems like hitting a woman was more acceptable to him than a woman holding a bottle of wine. Different values... Actually he was her great uncle and was an old man then and is probably dead now.

Pvoyageuse,

The spoon used for liquidy desserts like île flottante is called 'cuillère à entremet' apparently in that particular social circle and should only be used for what cannot be eaten with the fork. And using a 'cuillère à glace' would forever ban you from being re-invited I have never seen ice-cream being eaten with a fork either but I don't belong to nobility.

It took me at least a decade to feel comfortable eating with only one fork and switching it to my right hand, which is now second nature now since I live in the states long enough. This may be a good thread to ask WHAT ARE PROPER AMERICAN TABLE MANNERS if anyone REALLY knows since all these years I have been winging it.

Arm and elbows:
Growing up abroad I was annoyingly reminded and harassed to keep them as close as possible to myself, to avoid laying elbows on the table, and to never lift them from the plate except to put food in my mouth. It was strictly enforced and ingrained in me. Hand gesture while talking at the dinner table especially without putting the silverware down is an abominable crime in my family. Do all these still apply in proper American table manners? I've been hammering these to our kids all their lives but sometimes wonder if I'm even teaching them the right things.

Finishing:
Do you tip the soup bowl only towards yourself or away or sideways when finishing the last few spoonfuls?
Are we supposed to leave the silverware upward or downward when we're done? Does crossing them mean I'm not finished (do not remove yet, still hungry)? I can never figure this out, everyone has their own habit without any purpose/message. My instinct in the US has been to follow what others are doing around me, so sometimes I leave them up or down or crossed and tip the bowl according to what others are doing, that's what I told my kids to do on the basis of being courteous in other people's houses.

Anybody knows?

Typo: " never lift them from the plate" I mean never lift the silverware from the plate

It's not just France and Britain who consider it rude not to use knife and fork in tandem, it's the same in Australia and New Zealand and in fact most of the western world. A friend and I (from New Zealand) were backpacking in the US a few years ago. We decided to take our evening meal at a truckstop near Terre Haute, Indiana. As we sat eating our meal the lady who ran the place walked past our table, stopped and said in a loud voice, "Oh, my stars, ain't he dainty." I quizzed her on this and she pointed to the knife and fork in my hand and said, "heck, nobody uses a knife around here they just jam the food in their mouths with their hands, sometimes they'll lose a finger in the process."

I was invited to dinner tonight but preferred to decline due to the possiblity of trauma induced by this thread, so I can certainly understand the jitters of visitors.

And yet I automatically ignore a lot of the rules -- but having them put back in one's mind is detrimental to one's pleasure.

Really I think table manners (being courteous and respectful) are so much more important than table rules (where and how to place the fork and so on). Honestly I couldn't care less what foreign or other French guests could do with their silverware at my dinner table, or if they keep their hand on their lap or on the table, I don't even pay attention.

What matters to me when I have guests over is that they enjoy the food, the company and the time spent together. They can bring their German, Italian, US, New Zealand, British or Australian ways to my French table, I don't care and probably won't even notice. And when I am abroad I never worry about my ways being different as long as I am aware of major cultural taboos. I was only made aware of my being different once when I was 13 staying with an English family: I was struggling to grab peas with my fork since there was no bread to help and they suggested I use a knife to push the food (which is not done in France). But I felt they were teaching me English ways to be helpful, not to reprimand me. I now use my knife to push the food to the fork in France even if it is not supposed to be done and I have never seen anyone looking shocked either. If anyone was looking at how I use my knife and fork then they would be the rude ones. You can tell when people are well-mannered or not and it has nothing to do with these cultural codes. Some eat neatly with their (clean) hands, others eat and behave like pigs with fine silverware.

While I can't speak for every French person, it seems to me that we French people are more into manners than rules. The one thing I think most French people will find shocking is seeing fine food not being appreciated for what it is: bringing a nice bottle of champagne and seeing it get mixed with orange juice or people spreading a high quality foie gras flat on the bread as if it was pâté, etc. So the only thing foreigners need to be aware of is how important good quality food and ingredients are to us, and stop worrying about where and how to put your knife and fork on the plate.

I love knowing about rules because there is always interesting history behind them but it doesn't mean each and every one of them needs to be observed, especially when the reason behind it no longer exists.

Haha! Was crossposting with kerouac and I see we reach the same conclusion It is truly a misunderstanding of French culture to not realize that what matters most here is appreciation of the meal, not what you do with your hands and cutlery.

Our basic conclusion would be: as you are polite according to your own customs, the vast majority of the French will be totally indulgent no matter what "mistakes" you make.

However, if you find yourself in some sort of rigid aristocratic meal, you might find yourself in deep trouble. While a true aristocrat will indulge your 'outlandish' customs due to proper upbringing, a wannabe aristocrat could have a ridiculous reaction to things that do not conform to the rules that they think they have learned.

Veronique,

"one of my noble friends told me that when she was a teenager she wanted to help and served wine to guests. Her uncle said nothing but asked her to follow her into the kitchen. There he violently slapped her in the face to teach her that a lady is never to touch a bottle of alcohol! Now that is just one particular anecdote and I don't know if this rule is observed by most nobles attached to tradition or if that Marquis was a little extreme..."

This is a wonderful example to show us that "manners" and customs are sometimes not worth preserving or observing!

I would have thought that such barbaric behaviour would never have been acceptable, but has often been overlooked or excused if the perpetrator was sufficiently rich or powerful that it could be seen as some kind of archaic eccentricity rather than what it is - inexcusable and completely unjustifiable violence against someone not in a position to fightback.

As privileged travellers, beyond the niceties of table manners that we have been arguing about, WE also need to be mindful of other behaviours we observe when we travel and either speak-up at the time (often difficult and sometimes dangerous), or at least make sure that when we post our trip reports or tell others, that we include this information.

We all have a responsibility to bear witness (morally, ethically and completely detached from any religion one may or may not follow) - such dark behaviours will only change when subjected to the ongoing glare of a bright light!

Now I'll hop off my soapbox - you've probably guessed that I'm not a fan of cultural relativism or the barbaric exploitation of those no in a position to fightback!

Rob

I learn such amazing things from these forums! Coffee bowls, never heard of them but I looked them up and had seen them before. I would have assumed they were for condiments, etc., as a matter of fact I think I have white ones from Ikea that I use for salsa, etc. Too funny.

Hey Monica, come to my house with your coffee bowls and we'll have a nacho party!

I agree French table manners only matter if you are trying to impress some important French host like an in law or to land a business deal.

Most tourists don't have to worry about it since they mostly eat in restaurants. I think most french waiters learn to forgive our faux pas gracefully since Americans have the best table custom in the world - a Big Fat Tip of 18-20% - which is what the typical french tourists are lacking when they come to the states. Even if we try to be cheap we would feel terribly guilty about tipping less than 10% in France. My nephew who works in a Michelin star restaurant in San Francisco complains about finicky french guests who are ignorant about proper tipping.

Are you kidding? I don't feel guilty not tipping American-size tips in France, precisely because it isn't French custom. I'd look ridiculous if I did that. One tips according to LOCAL custom, not what one does at home.

Yes, but you practically live in France, know the local customs very well and presumably speak good painless French.The rest of us may not be like you so the French waiters have to put up with our mindless questions, request for butter for our bread, horseradish with our steak, ice cubes and ketchup...so it is only right that we should tip them more.

One example I can never forget was sitting next to a finicky couple who asked for extra this and that and charmingly mentioned to the french waiter that they would give him a big tip if they can have their steak with horseradish like at home instead of butter and ice cubes for their drinks. The waiter even brought ketchup for their fries! We chatted a lot throughout dinner and at the end they asked me if they should just leave some change as they heard people don't have to tip. I felt bad for the waiter so I reminded them of the fact that they already promised the waiter a big tip.

I should ask you now St Cirq, how much do you tip then? Rounding the bill to the next bill? 5% or 7% or depends on how fancy the restaurant is?

No tipping in restaurants in France--le service est compris. None of my French friends do it.

At most, one leaves the change up to the next euro on the table.

>> And using a 'cuillère à glace' would forever ban you from being re-invited<<

There were once people in England who thought that about fish knives (or affected to) - you were supposed to use a fork to flake the fish off the bone, I believe.

Thanks for your input kerouac & Michael, that's good to know.
 I still believe that the generous american tipping habit is a good thing especially when the server speak our language. That's a higher level of service that we receive and tip for. How many french servers would bother to learn/speak Flemish, German, Spanish, Chinese or Arabic to provide a better service for them.

I spent a couple summers in Switzerland as a student and hardly ever tipped beyond a franc back then since I went out with the locals to simpler restaurants/cafes and cheap bars.  In recent times, however, those very same swiss acquaintances all tipped well when we went out to nice restaurants in Switzerland. They told me tipping is still not required but they do tip 5-10% in better restaurants that provides better service. I am surprised that it doesn't apply in France, seriously?

In the boondocks an hour from Toulouse, we leave small change in cafés and bars (bill is 8.20€, leave the .80).

Most of the restaurants we go to on a regular basis are family-owned and operated. We would never tip the owners but some of the larger places have a bowl or box by the cash register for tips for the staff. We leave 2-3 euros on a 40-euro bill, for example.

Interesting local custom new to us, at even the larger "tablecloth" places, the bill isn't brought to the table, you go up to the counter or bar to pay.

We go to one place 3-4 times a month, left 25 euros in the bowl at the New Year.

Dax "I still believe that the generous american tipping habit is a good thing especially when the server speak our language. That's a higher level of service that we receive and tip for. How many french servers would bother to learn/speak Flemish, German, Spanish, Chinese or Arabic to provide a better service for them."

No. Dax no. please don't force your cultural standards on other cultures.

If we make this into a tipping thread it will go and on and never touch the far more interesting issue of butter knives. Still no one has answered by question about eating mussels in cream curry sauce.

Reminds me of Madame Butterfly.

Véronique, if
- I were not married;
- you were not married;
- I were some years younger
I'd be on the next available plane to Paris to propose to you.

FMT is one lucky guy.

I still believe that the generous american tipping habit is a good thing especially when the server speak our language.

And the foreign tourist in the States should follow his own custom and not tip?

This is a perpetual confusion for me as I always rely on Fodorites, but whenever I ask people I know who live in Europe they always said waiters absolutely expect tips and they would never see you negatively if you tip better, they appreciate it! I remember some german fodorites saying the same thing.

After reading previous posts today, I felt compelled to call my swiss acquaintance and his french wife (both scientists) who live near Geneva how much they tip in restaurants and he told me around 10% especially in France where the salary is so low, many people without education hold a second job to survive ( that's why they don't want longer work hours) he said have pity on them, many count on tips to survive even with the 13 month salary. It's tough to survive on their low salary.

I also called my older sister who lives near Lucerne for 31 years how much exactly she and her swiss husband tip, she said 15% which should really be 10% but her husband is always too generous towards people. She agreed that the waiters in France and Italy earn very little compare to Switzerland many can't afford their own apartments and have to share, so those guys absolutely appreciate good tips. However she said there are people who barely tip anything at all. I reminded her how, as a student used to brag that no tipping is necessary in Switzerland, she said yes that was when they themselves were living on a tight budget, but if we can travel and afford the nice restaurants, we really should tip the waiters, though it is up to our good heart.

<<FMT is one lucky guy.>>

Hey Padraig. Thanks for the nice compliment. Of course, you could also say that Mrs. FMT is one lucky gal.

Meanwhile "mussels in cream curry"? anyone?

many people without education hold a second job to survive

Saying such a thing is proof of total ignorance. I think your Swiss sister is totally disconnected from reality, DAX, because my Swiss friends do not tip in Switzerland, France or any other non tipping country. And yes, they do earn more money. So what? Life in Switzerland is extremely expensive.

bilboburgler: http://www.leon-de-bruxelles.fr/la-carte/comment-manger-les-moules
I use the first method using the shells as tongs. It is supposed to be messy, that's why they bring hand wipes.
Padraig,
FMT better behave or I could accept your proposal! How about a table manner duel between the two of you?
Véronique

Wow, so much worry and rules...it's a wonder anyone ever eats anything at all. We just try to be polite and not offend anyone, but I don't think about any of this...i just sit down, order and eat. I would go crazy trying to sort out all the rules. I am Southern and what I understand about manners is that they are intended to make others comfortable, not uncomfortable.

This is entertaining to read.

George Orwell, in "Down and Out in Paris and London", claimed that waiters at that stage relied on tips to survive - in fact they were usually much better than the wages, and there was a whole scale of payments that waiters then passed to other restaurant staff.

denisea - You and I would get along just fine at the dinner table.

George Orwell, in "Down and Out in Paris and London", claimed that waiters at that stage relied on tips to survive

That was a completely different era--1920's and 1930's. Tipping also existed in the 1960's, but it was being phased out, with a lot of restaurants indicating that le service est compris; and that is now universal.

On the other hand, the waiter in a Budapest restaurant was quite up front, almost to the point of being rude, about the fact that service was not included with the price of the meal. I accept the idea that Swiss tipping norms are not the same as in France.

Awesome, FMT!

Kerouac, you misread/misquoted:

It was the french & swiss scientist couple who talked about second jobs in France. The french wife told me her cousin repair houses near Lyon on his day off as a second job to help support his family on his low salary. In what way is that total ignorance? If anything this "ignorant" couple shows a smart financial strategy to work in Geneva but live in a mansion across the border buying cheaper gas & groceries in France.

My sister readily admits that they tip generously but if you know how hard they work to earn, you would not label her disconnected from reality, she knows the value of money all too well, but she's very compassionate and always helpful towards others individually.

I may only know weird people, but all the French I have met (from different "classes") on business or private occasions for any meal did not make 1 percent of all the fuss that I find mentioned here. Especially when it was a private occasion it was always very entertaining and relaxed - and a pleasure foodwise anyway.

IMO, it's a bit like making a trip to Europe sound like some massively complicated endeavour, which you can only survive if you study 6 months in advance, comply with a myriad of written and unwritten rules, and can brag about afterwards that you survived it.


Just as food for thought:

How many Europeans do you see switching to the US manner to cut first, and then just use fork??
How many would even waste one single thought on this matter before going on holiday to the US??

Or is this obsession on whether or not to eat with knife and fork when in Europe another item on the silly "How to blend in" or "How not to be a tourist" list?

<IMO, it's a bit like making a trip to Europe sound like some massively complicated endeavour, which you can only survive if you study 6 months in advance ...>

Thank heavens! I'll be in Paris in six days and was afraid I'd have to order all my food "to go," sneak it into my hotel room, close the curtains, and eat in the dark, lest anyone be privy to my ignorance. Ohh ... but of course, eating in the hotel room is unacceptable, as well. AGGHHH.

This thread is just a discussion of different manners and customs, no one actually thinks that everything is some law do they? I wouldn't worry about doing or not doing anything said here, except keeping your mouth shut when chewing!!!

I am surprised that some are taking it so serioiusly.

justineparis wrote: "This thread is just a discussion of different manners and customs..."

It's more than that: I'm trying to get it on with Véronique without her husband noticing.

LOL

Padraig, I think you fluffed it

FMT2, yes she used the tongs method ( spent my summer holidays in Barfleur as a child) but garlic and white wine does not stain like curry sauce.

Are you kidding? I don't feel guilty not tipping American-size tips in France, precisely because it isn't French custom. I'd look ridiculous if I did that. One tips according to LOCAL custom, not what one does at home.>

exactly - most French - I'd say just about all French I know never tip because the Service Charge is included in the meal price - so tipping is like paying twice for service.

Actually I understood that it was customary to leave a few small coins like you may get in change if paying with cash but when I try doing this with my in-laws they invariably say no - no reason to do that - not sure they are typical but... only naive Americans leave big tips and waiters yes may work folks for that at times!

I confirm that my French friends leave nothing on the table after receiving the change unless it is no more than 0.40€. If you get a 50 centime coin, you take it with you.

I see you're all finally beginning to understand French table manners: just like this thread by the end of French meals, conversations usually revolve around sex and wife swapping
Now to perfect your French table skills, you all need to learn some "chansons paillardes". I'll let you google that...