French nationality through parentage (jus sanguinis) must be established by the time the child (you) is 18 years old.

Separately from your questions about French nationality, the questions about your parents can all be answered by research on Ancestry.com, I am pretty sure. When and how they came to the U.S. and when they became citizens would be interesting just to know.

StCirq: Yep, that's what I was afraid of, lol. Oh well, just gotta find another way.

Cynthia: Great idea -- I actually have done some research on Ancestry.com, but I wasn't willing to pay $35/month to retain access to all those features after my trial membership ended.

Look into Dutch nationality, too. It is the EU. Doesn't matter which EU nationality you hold in order to live in France. Who knows, perhaps you'd even
prefer to live in Holland !

You are indeed not entitled to French citizenship but since you are close to retirement age nothing can stop you from retiring in France as long as you can prove that you have the means to support yourself in France, have your own health insurance and won't be working or looking for work. You would have to apply for a long stay visa.

You don't qualify for Dutch citizenship either I'm afraid.

I don't know what the requirements are, but you might look into a student visa that would enable you to stay beyond the usual 90 days - that is, assuming you wouldn't mind being a student again. I plan to retire in France, and my SO and I are periodically jumping through hoops to figure out how he can be there with me without having to leave every 90 days. If I get any brilliant ideas, I'll pass them on.

I do not know the specifics however if you have your Mother's birth certificate you can obtain a second passport. Not that it would entitle you to citizenship however it would permit you to conduct business in France, open a bank account and it would entitle you to stay in France longer than the 90 days.
Other than obtaining the second passport you can apply for a visa and it does not have to be a student visa. Then when in France you need to apply for a Carte de Sejour and prove you have a certain income. Here are 2 websites where you can find specific information on the visa application process and other information on living in France.
http://www.consulfrance-washington.org/spip.php?article401
http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/living/living_abroad/living_in_france.shtml#expatriate_websites_france

http://www.adrianleeds.com/home/consultation-services

Adrian Leeds has a newsletter called parlor paris. She may be able to give you more specifics on obtaining a second passport. Her email address is a the bottom of the link above.

My mother had the excellent idea to register my birth at the French consulate when I was born -- so I had no trouble at all getting all of my French papers when I wanted them.

Any chance that you were registered at the French or Dutch consulate at birth?

"Any chance that you were registered at the French or Dutch consulate at birth?"

No, none whatsoever, I'm afraid. I'll look into locating my mother's birth certificate. I'm not sure if it would be on record here, or just in France.

Re the Dutch citizenship idea, I had actually already called the Dutch consulate on that some months ago, and found out then that their "right of blood" (gruesome image, but I guess that's the term) also has to be exercised before (or by) age 18.

I really want to thank all of you for all these answers. Whether they work or not, I am so grateful for so much advice and suggestions when I am brand new here.

You guys are really nice.

One more thing I wanted to say, in response specifically to those here who suggested that to retire in France I only need to get a long stay visa (or a student visa), prove I have enough income to support myself, and that I have health insurance. The only one of those that I am worried about is the health insurance. I'm on Medicare (even though I'm only 61, because I qualified for Social Security Disability), and as I found out, although my SSD checks can be sent anywhere in the world (with a few exceptions), my Medicare is not transferable. I can't use it outside of the United States. And since I can't afford what health insurance costs in the United States, I'm not sure how I would manage that one. Any ideas?

This is of course an ever-increasing issue in countries like France which are trying to decrease expenses in health care. I suspect that if you haven't worked anywhere in the European Union, you are stuck with a private plan from a company like BUPA. The health care restrictions were tightened further a few years ago, and even Europeans resident in France who aren't working (and therefore contributing) have to have a private plan for 5 years before applying to join,and then pay based on income. So you would first have to be resident in France.

Regarding health insurance even a US-based private plan will be cheaper to get you coverage in France than it would for coverage in the US since the health care costs are so much lower here. Google 'retire in France US citizen' and 'international health insurance'.

This 2-year-old article may give you some direction, especially paragraph 5: http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/the-bottom-line-of-bargain-healthcare-in-france-54450.aspx

But note that you must be resident in France - i.e paying taxes in France.

<<You are indeed not entitled to French citizenship but since you are close to retirement age nothing can stop you from retiring in France as long as you can prove that you have the means to support yourself in France, have your own health insurance and won't be working or looking for work. You would have to apply for a long stay visa.>>

Hi, FMT. What if your work consists of working on your computer and online for U.S. and international development customers (and paying the requisite U.S.taxes on that income, of course) - no work for a French company, no "going to work," no physical presence anywhere for a French entity. ??

My parents retired to France as American citizens. If my mother had known that she was still a valid French citizen, I'm sure it would have been much simpler. They went through all of the visa formalities, provided the necessary financial proof, had their medical visit, etc. Naturally, as older people, health care was a concern, but my father was retired military and since they were going to be living the east of France, they knew they had rapid access to the military hospitals on the American bases of Germany if necessary. For "standard" medical treatment, they knew they could easily afford French rates and on top of that, my French grandmother's doctor took care of all of their medical needs and added any necessary prescriptions on my grandmother's account. This may not be ultra ethical, but it is very common in France for members of the same family or even close friends. I have known many expats to get a free ride on a French citizen's social security benefits. At the same time, it is all for the best because it is in everybody's interest for everybody in France to remain as healthy as possible. Anybody in need of health care will be treated anyway in France whether they can pay for it or not, even the homeless, but it is always better for people to be treated for their condition before they need to go to a hospital.

If you move to France, I'm not saying that you need to bend the rules on such things, but as you learn the ropes, you discover that there are hundreds of ways to reduce expenses in completely legal ways. And with out new kinder and gentler government, you might even qualify for naturalization faster than you think.

@kerouac, why did your mother not know whether she was still a valid French citizen? It seems that she was very prudent, registering you with the French consulate as a newborn.

Hi StCirq,

This is actually FMT2 writing = FMT's wife If the US citizen has a US income it's great. Because in order to get a long stay visa you need to prove you can support yourself financially and won't cost France a dime.

Carlux,

If the OP gets a long stay visa, she then becomes a resident. But since she won't be allowed to work in France she will not be entitled to French social security/health insurance. She will live legally in France but will continue to pay taxes in the US and will have to buy her own private health insurance, which will cover her health care in France. No need to pay taxes in France to reside there but as a result you receive nothing from the state and must prove you won't be a burden to the French system.

The long stay visa is a hassle to file for in that it requires a lot of paperwork but apart from that it is easy to get for anyone who can prove they have sufficient funding and assets:
http://www.consulfrance-washington.org/spip.php?article401

Véronique

Thanks, V.

Sounds like this will be a bit complicated. I have an Irish passport, so I assume I can just get a carte de séjour and settle in? I wouldn't have French income, at least not at the start. I'd keep getting income from my current sources in the USA (and Canada and occasionally elsewhere, but for the time being, not France). I'd pay U.S. taxes. I would qualify for French health insurance (at presumably a lower rate than the God-awful amount I pay here) - is that right?

SO would apply for a long-term visa, get a carte de séjour, continue HIS work with his U.S. clients, which the French would like because he could show he could support himself. We'd also together be able to show that we owned property (a house) in France, which I assume would be to our benefit.

Am I getting this at least partly right?

BTW, I AM researching the French laws through the consulate, etc. It's just sometimes simpler to absorb it through people on the ground who've done it.

Apart from that, we'd have other financial resources to show them we can support ourselves, too.

Thanks to all.

My understanding of the system here - having been almost thrown out when the changes were made, is that you have to work/have worked here. So, even Europeans who have worked, for instance in Britain, but come here before retirement age, can not join the system for 5 years. Then they should be resident, with indication that they pay taxes here, so that payment is based on their taxable income.

If you have retired here from another European country, then there is a system of transfer payments so that you are covered, and your home country picks up the cost. But for non-Europeans this doesn't apply.

There is a lot of information on this in various expat site, mostly aimed at Brits, but some are useful in generally explaining the system.

There are many private companies now offering insurance to 'etrangers.'

I was lucky enough to have worked in neighbourhood schools, and contributed to the system, and so qualify now as a retired person.

Perhaps the new 'kinder gentler' government may change the system, but since it is heavily in debt, I wouldn't count on it, My suspicion is that any changes would be for French residents.

'How to get into the system'
http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-health/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=18851

StCirq,

As a US national coming to France without French employment you are not entitled to French health insurance, you would have to buy your own.

As an Irish citizen however things could be different but I know nothing about the process for EU nationals to move to a member state so I cannot help with that unfortunately.

Must go now to run an errand but if I find out more I will let you know. I agree with Carlux to check all the expat blogs and sites aimed at UK and Irish people.

" I would qualify for French health insurance (at presumably a lower rate than the God-awful amount I pay here) - is that right?"

No. You'd have to have your own health insurance.

There's a lot of misinformation floating around here, not surprising as it is all very difficult, confusing and constantly changing.

katkat, it is great to post on here to get a feel for what's required for French residency but the only valid source of information is from the French consulate closest to your US residence. As mentioned above, requirements include adequate income to be self-supporting and health insurance coverage but nowhere (that I could find) are details given i.e. a specific amount of income or a certain level of insurance. We have private US insurance which pays 80/20 after $1,000. We have not found this onerous, as Kerouac said, routine charges are very low, 23€ for a GP appointment, for example.

I entered France without a long term visa as my husband is a UK passport holder. However, within three months of entering France I had to apply for a carte de séjour and present proof of income, insurance, etc. At his age 65, my husband and I can join the French health system off the bat of his 30+ contributions to the UK health system, reciprocal agreement.

St Cirq, my understanding is that if you become a permanent resident of France, you are expected to declare your worldwide income by filing yearly French tax returns (we do). You also have to file US income tax but due to a tax treaty between France and the US, you may or may not owe US tax. If you are over 65, you can join the health system (I think) but you may have to pay cotisations.

Your Irish passport provides the right to residence and to work, but not automatically to health insurance or any other benefits. I have many English friends who have been surprised by this. I would talk to a tax consultant who handles ex-pat taxes.

My view is very simplistic, we have fairly straight forward incomes and investments and have declared France as our principle residence.

Re Veronique's comment about proving sufficient income: Translating my current monthly SSD check into euros, would 1,093 euros a month be considered sufficient income for purposes of getting the long stay visa?

"katkat, it is great to post on here to get a feel for what's required for French residency but the only valid source of information is from the French consulate closest to your US residence."

Absolutely, and I actually *have* been doing a lot of research at the consulate (New York) and looking at expat blogs, doing some research on housing costs in Paris, etc., etc. As StCirq said, it's helpful to also have a "live" (sort of, almost) source of immediate information from people who have been through similar situations. It's the human touch, interacting with actual people in addition to web sites.

Which gives me another opportunity to say how happy I am I found this place. There is such a wealth of information and support here -- truly wonderful to have this forum as a source of help.

<<Your Irish passport provides the right to residence and to work, but not automatically to health insurance or any other benefits. I have many English friends who have been surprised by this.>>

Yup, I got that bit, as I stated above. Not expecting any benefits and won't be surprised by any of that.

Thanks for the explanations, all. I'm in the process of selling my house in France right now and feel awash in the French bureaucracy already; this just adds another layer. Fortunately, I can negotiate quite adequately in, and read, French - it must be a really tough row to hoe for those who can't....or an expensive one.

katkat1950,

There is no set figure but most agree that you need +/- 2000 euros a month to be considered self-sufficient. But someone can come with half of that or even no monthly income at all if they have the money in a savings account.

The thing is the visa is initially granted for only a year's residence so as long as between your income and your savings you have 24,000 euros it is likely the visa would be granted. Your situation is then reassessed yearly when you apply for the carte de séjour (residence permit) renewal.

Lower income can also be compensated by proving you have low expenses in France: for instance free housing through a friend or relative.

30+ years

"Translating my current monthly SSD check into euros, would 1,093 euros a month be considered sufficient income for purposes of getting the long stay visa?"

Probably. There is no fixed amount. Each case is reviewed separately. Bear in mind that the minimum monthly salary in France is €1.398 and that once you've paid rent, taxes, food, utilities etc... you won't have a lot of spending money left.

katkat,

Your ss income may or may not be too low, but, as Mystique said, savings would also be taken into account.

In real terms, given costs today, that amount is low if it is meant to cover housing in addition to all other monthly expenses. But, much is dependent on where in France you choose to live. And, while at present the euro is down against the dollar, that can and has changed overnight so that is an dded consideration.

St cirq, sorry I misunderstood what you wrote. I am not sure what health cover cotisations you would pay, I think roughly 4% to 12% of your income, depending on level of income, after all allowances. This is what I meant by difficult because if you declare the house you will own in France as your principal residence, you are expected to file income taxes in France, on which the cotisations are then based to receive a carte vitale. Perhaps there is a way around this, but I know of none. Let me know what you find out!

Regarding translations, we are proficient enough not to have had to use a translator other than when required to have documents translated and stamped by a traducteur assermenté. This runs about 30€ per page.

StCirq, where is your house in France? A naive question: why is there so much bureaucracy in selling a house? Is it because you are not a French native?

@kerouac, why did your mother not know whether she was still a valid French citizen?

I think that when my mother was naturalized (obligatory to become a teacher), there was something about "renouncing" one's citizenship to become an American citizen. In those days, people did not realize that other countries do not give a flying f**k about American rules and that whatever you have promised the U.S. authorities has no validity in the real world. Many countries have decreed that citizenship is "unrenounceable."

And since my parents moved to France long before the internet existed, it was not super easy to find out such things.

Tentek, my house is in....drum roll...St-Cirq (full name St-Cirw-du-Bugue) in the Périgord. I've had it for almost 20 years. And no, the amount of bureaucracy to wade through has nothing to do with me not being a French national. It's just the way the system in France works.
First I needed to dig up my divorce property settlement and get an "official translation" of it, even though I could do a decent job of that myself (not a translator but have decades of study and use of French), to prove that I am now the sole owner of the house. Then to find tbe original acte d'achat (which is inside the house in France, where I am not at the moment) which involved lengthy calls and emails back and forth to the original notaire who handled the sale of the house. Then you put the house on the market and wait for a promesse d'achat, which involves all kinds of paperwork; then you negotiate with the potential buyer, and only when you arrive at a final price does he/she put down 10% of the agreed-upon price, which goes into an escrow account, which takes about 10 days; then the buyer has 3 months to finally agree to buy, or not and lose his 10%. All the while, the house must be inspected and so on and so forth, all involving tons of paperwork. When/if the buyer agrees to buy you have to meet and sign a compromis. Then you have to go to the equivalent of closing. You have to find a mortgage company, a royal PITA if you're not French (actually, in my case it was easy - the notaire just said "here, use these guys," BUT still had to get pay stubs and tax returns and company financial records translated...bla bla bla...). You have to open a French bank account. And there are several "alternative" type of purchases that get even more complicated. Etc., etc., etc.
This time around I'll be familiar with the process, and will be paying in cash so won't need a mortgage. Should be easier in many respects. Although actually, with the help of a notaire and knowing the language, buying the place in St-Cirq was easier than buying either of the two houses I've purchased in VA.

"The thing is the visa is initially granted for only a year's residence so as long as between your income and your savings you have 24,000 euros it is likely the visa would be granted."

I have no savings. I live entirely on my monthly SSD check. And where I live here -- in a one-bedroom apartment in northern New Jersey, about 10 miles from NYC -- I pay, translated into Euros, 776 euros a month in rent.

In dollars, that's $988, a month, which I have paid every single month for almost four years, out of a monthly check of $1,291. That's $100 less than my monthly SSD check would be, in dollars, if I moved to France, because $100 is automatically deducted from my check every month to pay my Medicare Part B premium. I would cancel that deduction if I moved to France, since I can't use Medicare there.

$988 is a pretty high rent here, although there are certainly lots of apartments more expensive. And in my housing cost researches (mostly, so far, on Craigslist), there seem to be lots of apartments for 776 euros or less. Obviously, I'd less to pay less if I can.

Of course, none of that will help me if the people responsible for approving long-stay visas don't think 1,093 euros a month is sufficient to be independent.

Obviously, I'd LIKE to pay less in that next to last paragraph.

"Bear in mind that the minimum monthly salary in France is €1.398 and that once you've paid rent, taxes, food, utilities etc... you won't have a lot of spending money left."

Do you mean there is a minimum income amount below which no employer can legally pay? That *seems* to be what you're saying, but I want to make sure.

As far as not having much spending money left, hey-- welcome to my life. I have only a few hundred -- at most -- left every month after paying rent, out of which I have to pay everything else. I've done it for almost four years. In August it'll be four years. I don't have a car, either. I live extremely frugally. It's not much of a life if you can't live without a lot of extras, but I can. I wish I didn't have to, of course, but I do have to, so I do.

"I think that when my mother was naturalized (obligatory to become a teacher), there was something about "renouncing" one's citizenship to become an American citizen."

Ah, this might be an answer to my own question about whether my parents had to renounce their Dutch and French nationalities, respectively, when they were naturalized, in the late 1940s or possibly the early 1950s.

"In those days, people did not realize that other countries do not give a flying f**k about American rules and that whatever you have promised the U.S. authorities has no validity in the real world."

Ha! I love this!!

And you've indirectly touched on part of my motivation for wanting to move to France.

Kitkat,

1398 euros is indeed the minimum monthly salary in France but it is the gross salary, which gives a net of 1,097 euros = your income. Many people live on less than that but they are often entitled to different benefits to help them, which wouldn't be your case. Also you must always take into account the possibility that with exchange rate fluctuations your income could be worth less than 1000 euros.

I honestly think in your situation it would be difficult to get the visa but not completely impossible either. It is possible to live on 1000 euros a month in a provincial town that would be lively enough for you not to need a car. You must find a place where the rent won't exceed 300 euros, which is possible but rent usually doesn't include utilities in France. Also tenants pay a local tax in France (taxe d'habitation).

You should start getting quotes on the private health insurance to get an idea of whether you could afford it or not. If you can move to a cheaper apartment to save a few hundred dollars a month in the meantime it would be great so that after a couple of years you'd have some savings aside to finance your move.

Don't set your hopes too high but if you can prove that you can live on your income in France you can always file for a visa and hope for the best.

FrenchMystique, good advice, thanks. But I just have to say, about this:

"1398 euros is indeed the minimum monthly salary in France but it is the gross salary, which gives a net of 1,097 euros = your income."

I just want to be clear on what I meant when I asked to make sure I was understanding correctly about there being a minimum monthly salary in France. That might have come across as being a bit incredulous, and it WAS, but not because I thought it was the net rather than the gross amount. I was (and am) incredulous that there IS a minimum monthly income, at all. I mean, that's extraordinary. I didn't know that.

Having lived in the United States all my life, I am just floored by the concept of the government telling employers that they cannot pay employees anything they want, there is a minimum amount that every person must be paid.

I mean, we have a federal minimum wage law here, but it's an hourly wage, and it's set extremely low -- much lower than the cost of living and almost never adjusted for inflation.

A law establishing a minimum monthly salary for all citizens could NEVER be passed in this country. It's just not seen as a right here.

<<Having lived in the United States all my life, I am just floored by the concept of the government telling employers that they cannot pay employees anything they want, there is a minimum amount that every person must be paid.>>

What's the difference between that and a minimum wage, which we have here in the USA? There's no obligation for a French company to offer anyone a job, but if they do, they have to pay that minimum amount (OK, there must be part-time jobs, consusltancies, etc., but the concept is the same as minimum wage here). Of course a French company can and often (usually, even) pays more, depending on the skills and background of the employee. No one is saying that every French employee gets the minimum amount every month - of course not!

Not sure what you don't understand about this.

"No one is saying that every French employee gets the minimum amount every month - of course not!"

Oh, okay. I misunderstood then.

"You must find a place where the rent won't exceed 300 euros, which is possible"

It is possible but it will be hard especially in a town with good public transportation vs a small remote village where the OP will be completely isolated. As an example, my son's first flat when he got his first job was a tiny 25 sq.m. and he paid a monthly rent of €300. That was in 2008 and in an area of France (Languedoc Roussillon) considered rather not expensive. He paid another €300 to the rental agency + a deposit of €300 to the owner.
You'll have to add compulsory home insurance to utilities and local taxes. If you file income taxes in France, your monthly SDD check will be taxed.
And most important : do you speak French?

Actually, there is a monthly minimum revenue for everybody in France whether they work or not, the RSA (revenu de solidarité active). However, it is only 475€.

And where I live here -- in a one-bedroom apartment in northern New Jersey, about 10 miles from NYC -- I pay, translated into Euros, 776 euros a month in rent.

Just to give you a comparison: I live in Reims* in an appartment of 35 square meters - bedroom + sitting room + kitchen + bathroom. For that I pay 300 € included hot and cold water and heating, no extra charge. It's a "HLM" (low rent housing) subsidized by the state. It's design for low income (but not especially poor either) people. In the private sector I think that I would pay 200 or 300 € more.
With your income you should qualify but you would be on a waiting list and it can take several months before you get an offer.


* Reims is a middle sized town in the North East of France (pop. 200,000). It has good public transportation and is only at 45 mn from Paris by TGV.

"No one is saying that every French employee gets the minimum amount every month - of course not!"

Oh, okay. I misunderstood then.

I don't understand what you understood or misunderstood

The monthly minimum salary is 1097 € so yes, every employee in France (French or not) who works full time gets a minimum of 1097 € every month. Minimum wages are not universal but are unique to France either.

Oops : are NOT unique to France

"I don't understand what you understood or misunderstood."

If you don't understand what I understood or misunderstood, or if I did not make myself clear about what I understood or misunderstood, I certainly don't think it's worth taking up any more time or space over.

Thank you for the helpful advice you have given me. I appreciate it.

'A naive question: why is there so much bureaucracy in selling a house? Is it because you are not a French native?'

In fact I dont think there is 'so much bureaucracy' in buying a house here. We bought ours 20 years ago, when there was probably less, but we've always said to people who are thinking about it, 'just bring money.'

I am currently involved in helping Canadian friends sell to an Australian. Steps involved:
1. Advertise house on the web, as agents took no interest. Australian woman sees it, arranges to visit on a trip to France,
2, Buyer loves the house, calls vendor, they agree on a price.
3. Buyer visits Notaire, prepares a kind of 'intention to buy' - statement of interest.
4. Vendor arranges for various 'diagnostics'to be done - checks for lead, asbestos, energy assessment (insulation, double glazing, etc,) This would normally have been done before an agency advertised the house.
5. Results go to Notaire, who prepares offer document 'Compromis de Vente', sent to both parties for signature. Buyer arranges for deposit to be sent to Notaire,
6, Time passes, while title searches, capital gain calculations, etc done
7. Both vendor and buyer sign proxies so that someone else can represent them. I for the vendor, Notaire's secretary for the buyer. Buyer transfers money to Notaire's account. On day of sale we sign, and it's done. Notaire transfers money (minus capital gains tax due to vendor's account.

The difference between France and North America at least is that the Notaire represents both parties, rather than having two different lawyers. But, if you dont have to arrange a mortgage, not so complicated. This transaction is also made easier by the fact that the Notaire had arranged the original purchase, and so had all the documents, but since most people would have a copy of their Acte de Vente (deed) on hand, it wouldn't have been an issue.

Since we have veered into real estate, I don't know about other countries, but in France you have to provide a number of recent certificates proving there is no asbestos, no lead pipes, no termites, etc. Living where I do in the 18th arrondissement of Paris, I even had to get a quarry certificate indicating that there are no underground quarries beneath my building.

askar,

Were you able to obtain low income housing as an EU or French national? How long had you lived in France? Had you or do you work in France?

Do not mean to be nosey, but given kitkat may obtain a long-term visa as a non-EU national, are you positive she would qualify for this type of housing?

I have no direct experience with this or any other government program but I try to be very careful not to imply that my situation would be the same for anyone else.

Also, do not forget that even though your U.S. SS income may not change (or not much), the exchange rate of the euro to the U.S. Dollar is forever changing. Plus whatever private health cover you obtain will almost certainly change on an annual basis - and it rarely ever goes down.

There was a period of a couple of years (not too long ago - I remember it painfully) when the exchange rate varied from 1.50 to 1.60 (I'll never forget paying $1.60 for 1 euro). When living in France on U.S. Dollars this is something that cannot be forgotten when making plans, especially if you are arriving on a seriously tight budget.

No one knows what will happen with currency exchange rates. It is something to consider. Having no savings to fall back on would be extremely frightening, at least to me.

For non EU citizens obtaining a non working long stay retirement visa for France has become much more difficult, as there is now a full medical requirement that requires a doctors visit and the visa cannot be applied for from France, in that it must be applied for and approved before you enter France.
You are required to demonstrate fully comprehensive private medical insurance for France, but this can be difficult or impossible to obtain if you have any form of pre-existing health condition such as high blood pressure, or diabetes.
The USA has refused to introduce an equivalent non working long stay visa for EU citizens wanting to retire to the States, and as visa policy tends to work on a reciprocol basis, US citizens are finding it harder to obtain long stay visas for the EU.

katkat, just an idle question: have you considered moving somewhere with a lower cost of living than France, where your SSD checks would go farther?

Low income housing is available to any legal resident. If this were not the case, there would not be so much outcry from the National Front about 'foreigners' taking over all of the low income housing (which is of course far from true).

"Living where I do in the 18th arrondissement of Paris,..."

Kerouac, this brings up a question I've had about rental costs. We've discussed it here already in the context of how difficult it might be to afford Paris rental costs on a limited fixed income, but I just want to press this point a little -- not to be argumentative, at all, but simply to test my own perceptions from looking at Paris apartment listings thousands of miles away from Paris. Now, granted, I have really only looked, so far, at apartment listings on Craigslist, so maybe I'm getting a distorted picture. But it seems to me that there are lots of apartments available for 775 Euros or less, and looking at the photos (for the ones that have them), they look pretty nice.

Why do I say 775 Euros or less? Because, using my handy dandy euros to dollars calculator that I found online, I plugged in $900(which is $88 less than I'm paying now), and get a euro amount of 705.8 euros. Now, if I go all the way up to the equivalent in euros of the amount I pay now, I get 774 euros. I don't want to pay that much for a Paris apartment, obviously, because considering all the other expenses that would be pushing it, but if I do that for the sake of argument, I get an upper range of, say, 700 to 775 euros, that I could conceive of paying as a monthly rent in Paris. And as I said, I see *many* apartment in that range and *under* that range. Admittedly, there are many more apartments that are considerably higher than that -- I've seen up to 3500 or so euros -- but I only need one apartment.

So, knowing now that you live in the 18th arrondissement (one of the less expensive ones, am I right?), and knowing that you probably know a bit about Paris rents, can you tell what I'm missing here?

Just wanted to add, I would never use Craigslist for a long-term Paris apartment. You want to look at de Particulier à Particulier or newspaper listings or other reliable sources.

"Having no savings to fall back on would be extremely frightening, at least to me."

It IS extremely frightening, lol. But I've lived this way for well over 10 years now, so I'm used to it. If you can ever get used to it. Plus, the financial experiences I went through up till four years ago (threatened eviction, car repossessed, etc.), the fact that, since I qualified for SSD (those horrors were before I applied for SSD) I have been able to pay my rent every month -- and thus feel reasonably certain that I will not end up on a park bench -- puts my tight budget in perspective. I feel blessed to know I don't have to worry about losing a roof over my head. Given all this, I find it hard to imagine that if I had to live that same way in Paris, it would be so awful. I mean, given that Paris itself -- actually living in Paris -- would be, for me (at least as I imagine it) a dream come true. I mean, I've lived in and around NYC all my life, and it's a wonderful city, but it's not Paris. Nowhere is. To me, Paris is a sacred city, like Jerusalem. Not for the same reasons, obviously, but it is, to me.

askar,

Were you able to obtain low income housing as an EU or French national? How long had you lived in France? Had you or do you work in France?

I'm French. I was just giving an idea of the rent for an appartment similar (at least for the size) to the one of KatKat.

Do not mean to be nosey, but given kitkat may obtain a long-term visa as a non-EU national, are you positive she would qualify for this type of housing?

As Kerouac says, public housing is not reserved to the French There are two Turkish families and one Vietnamese in my building for example; but the OP would need permanent residency permit (carte de résident).

"The USA has refused to introduce an equivalent non working long stay visa for EU citizens wanting to retire to the States, and as visa policy tends to work on a reciprocol basis, US citizens are finding it harder to obtain long stay visas for the EU."

LOL. Why am I not surprised?

Thanks, Askar, for elaborating. I'm glad to hear this is available for residents who meet the requirements.

The thing is, why would a country extend a long stay visa to someone who will then need subsidised housing? In this economic climate I just think you will have problems given your financial situation...

"katkat, just an idle question: have you considered moving somewhere with a lower cost of living than France, where your SSD checks would go farther?"

Oh yeah, definitely, but (a) I'm not certain what those cities are, or if they match up with cities I would have any interest at all in moving to. I know Costa Rica is considered near-paradise for American retirees, but I would not want to live there. I know that Thailand, as another example, is more and more being seen by American retirees as a fantastic place to retire on a limited income, but I would not want to live in Thailand.

The advantage I have with France is that I have a family connection to it. I know it wouldn't help me directly, but it makes the place more attractive to me, emotionally, if that makes sense. Plus, of all the possible foreign languages I might have to learn in moving to another country, French is the only one that I feel would be possible for me. I have a basic working knowledge of French (at least enough to stumble through daily life), and taking classes to learn it fluently would be easy for me. Easy in the sense that I feel confident about my ability to learn the language better because I'm already so familiar with it. I mean, it's a hard thing to explain. I am not familiar with French in the sense that I can speak it fluently, but I have a certain comfort level with it, with the sound of it, with the idea of it. My parents spoke it all the time when my brother and I were growing up (but only when they didn't want us to know what they were saying, which is why I didn't learn it fluently growing up), I took French in high school, I can understand and translate written French MUCH better than I can speak it. It feels comfortable to me.

Having said all this, I'm certainly open to suggestions for other cities that might be cheaper and might not feel too alien to me.

If you don't understand what I understood or misunderstood, or if I did not make myself clear about what I understood or misunderstood, I certainly don't think it's worth taking up any more time or space over.

Excuse me but I didn't mean to offend you. My English is seriously limited.

Think about Morocco. It's a Francophone country, is way cheaper, and has better weather.

"Excuse me but I didn't mean to offend you. My English is seriously limited."

I thought I was replying to St. Cirq, but either way, no worries. Really. I'm not offended by anything that's been said here. I just didn't think it was worth going on about a relatively small point.

"Think about Morocco. It's a Francophone country, is way cheaper, and has better weather."

Keep in mind, though, that I *hate* hot weather. I despise summer, at least the kind we have in NYC.

"Think about Morocco. It's a Francophone country, is way cheaper, and has better weather."

Also, I'm Jewish. That's not to make any judgments; I'm just trying to be realistic. And I could be mistaken, of course.

Actually, Morocco has a large Jewish population, both local and expat.

But to get back to the subject of Paris, since it costs double the price of the provinces, I think it might be unwise to try to settle in Paris on a fixed income. However, to address the subject of the 18th arrondissement, there are indeed apartments available for rent for less than 700€. These would be studio apartments or very small one bedroom apartments.

Rent is not the only thing to take into consideration -- there is also the residency tax. Paris being a rich city, the residency tax is very low, particularly for older buildings. Some of my colleagues in the suburbs are paying at least 5 times more for apartments the same quality as mine. The richer the city and the residents, the lower the residency tax. It is horribly unfair, but that's the way it is. Then again, we are paying much higher prices for a lot of other things.

"Actually, Morocco has a large Jewish population, both local and expat."

Well, there you go, I did not know that. I'm glad I allowed for the possibility of being mistaken.

<<Actually, Morocco has a large Jewish population>>

I wouldn't call it large, though it once was. I think there are about 5,000 Jews in Morocco these days, mainly in Casablanca (perhaps counting expat Jews, it's more than that). Most of them have emigrated to Europe, mainly France. Still, Morocco is a wonderful country with plenty of great French attributes - and yes, cheap!

My husband's barber in Rabat emigrated to Israel at Independence in '56 but returned to Morocco when he found that Sephards had problems there. Also, Hassan II called for Jews who left to return; he needed the professional classes to help run things.
Summer in France can be every bit as brutal as summer in NY. Of course, there are hot spots, mainly inland, in Morocco, but we never needed AC in Rabat on the ocean.

Katkat,

another thing to consider is that no owner will let you rent a flat at 775 euros. While it is common in the US to spend 50 to 80% of your income on housing it is simply impossible here. Owners demand that you make at the very least 3 times the rent unless you have a serious guarantor. Which is why you can only afford to pay 300 a month here. That would be possible in a town like Beaune, Burgundy for instance for a studio or small one bedroom.

In addition to the expenses listed by Pvoyageuse you must know that in France tenants are responsible for bringing their own fridge and stove and replace them themselves when they break. Hence the importance of having savings when living on a low income.

French immigration services won't view the fact that you spend 70% of your disposable income on lodging positively. It will send serious red flags. My advice is for you to get a cheaper apartment since you say it is possible and save at the very least 400 dollars a month for the next three years.

And even with best efforts on your part to save money for a few years I am afraid your income is too low anyway to afford private health insurance so I would look into that first. Not to discourage you but just being realistic. Good luck.

"another thing to consider is that no owner will let you rent a flat at 775 euros. ... French immigration services won't view the fact that you spend 70% of your disposable income on lodging positively. It will send serious red flags."

Well... sigh, ugh. Very hard to hear, but if that's the reality, then I must accept it.

As to moving to a cheaper apartment, although there definitely are apartments at lower rents than the one I'm in -- especially in the central and southern parts of New Jersey -- there are very few, if any, that cost so much less that I could save $400 or more per month. And I wouldn't want to move anyway. That would mean moving at least twice more in my life, one to the cheaper apartment and then to France, and I don't think I can manage that. I have moved so many times in the last 12 years, and each move was indescribably devastating, in every way imaginable. I could do it again to move to France (I would probably sell almost everything I own, including my approx. 2,000 books, in order not to have to deal with the nightmare of packing all the stuff I have). But I'm not going to do that (give up all my stuff) for anything less than moving to Paris, which is my dream. And the idea of going through everything, getting the boxes, packing, finding a mover, dealing with the mover, etc., etc. -- well, it's just not going to happen.

So maybe what I'll have to do is wait a few years and see what kind of COLAs (cost of living increase) I get between now and then. I'm only (almost) 62. Traditional retirement age isn't even until 65. I can always assess my financial situation again in a few years.

Till then, I'll just read everything I can lay my hands on about France and Paris in particular and try to get my French better. The Foreign Service has a website with excellent language courses. I've already gone through the first unit of the Basic French course. Having better French language skills will probably also help me if finances are better in three or four years.

StCirq, is this the website you were talking about, that's better for finding apartments in Paris than Craigslist?

http://www.pap.fr/

It's hard for me to tell because it's in French.

Yes, that's it.

I wouldn't be renting an apartment until I could navigate a site like that in French. But it sounds like you've planned some time for that.

Thanks, St. Cirq!

Agree that if you plan to retire in a country, it will be seriously important to be able to communicate in the language of the country. You will be receiving letters/contracts from various utility companies, landlords, government agencies, etc. It will be vital to be able to understand them and be able to respond effectively (both verbally and in writing).

All carte de sejour paperwork will, naturally, be in French. You will be required to have all U.S. documents (needed for your carte de sejour and the annual renewal of said carte) translated by an official translator. It is important to be able to understand the translation.

Once resident in France, you will be required to file a French tax return. You will not likely have to pay any French income taxes as you will not work in France, but all worldwide income must be reported once you are a legal resident of France. All tax forms are, naturally, in French. I don't find the process complicated, certainly not when comparing to U.S. standards, but you will need to understand it and complete it. If you do not, you will, eventually, receive a letter from the French fisc folks asking why you have not completed a return. Of course, you will still have to complete your U.S. return as that will never go away, the U.S. requires it.

I don't mean to sound negative, but I can't imagine anyone living in Paris on your income, by choice. As some other folks have said, you might find life more possible in a small village in the countryside of France. Even then, with health insurance costs and living costs, I don't think you'll get a VISA. Part of the VISA process is signing off on all kinds of paperwork stating you understand you cannot take part in the French healthcare system for a minimum of 5 years and you cannot take a job for a minimum of the same amount of time. You will have to sign these documents EVERY year for 5 years (when renewing your carte each year).

After being resident in France for 5 years, you can APPLY for permanent residency (10 year carte de sejour). It is not a 'given' that you will be approved. The process takes anywhere from 2 to 5 months, depending on which Mairie/Prefecture you are applying to and at what time of year.

1994, you don't sound negative -- or, if you do, it's because you're trying to help me, and what I'm trying to do, in your experience and considered judgment, is next to impossible. There's no point in acting like Mary Poppins (or Pollyanna!) with my questions if that's not giving me accurate or honest information. I'm not going to say I love hearing these reactions to what is a dream I've had for a long time, but who would, after all? I'd rather have the truth, even if it makes me feel sad, than be given pretty lies that won't help me in the long run.

That doesn't mean I'm giving up. As I've said, I'm only a little over one month short of 62; that's barely over middle age! And since I plan to live to be 100, even if I don't get to Paris until I'm in my 70s, I still have many good years to enjoy and appreciate it.

Also, as I've said before, I can put this time to good use, improving my French and doing more research on health insurance, et al. With regard to the first, I discovered a book last night that I didn't know I had (yes, I have *that* many books -- so many I often can't find specific books I know I have) called "Le Francais Pratique. It seems to be the first of two or more volumes because it has "I" on it. It's very old -- last printing, 1972. But I'm going to look online to see if I can rustle up volume II (or however many there are). It looks like an extremely useful book -- the only disadvantage I see is that there is no answer key for the exercises in it -- so I can't be sure my answers will be correct. But I'll try it anyway, and maybe if I can find the other volumes, one of those will have the answer key.

One thing I am reasonably sure I have on my side is that I will NOT have to file a U.S. tax return, no matter where I go. I haven't filed a tax return since 2008 -- my income isn't high enough. I of course can't say if I'd have to file a tax return for the French government, if I move there -- I obviously don't know enough about French tax law.

France and the U.S. have a bilateral agreement to avoid double taxation. Since the U.S. requires filing and taxation of U.S. citizens, they are exempt from French income tax -- but not the other taxes.

Thanks, kerouac.

And re the book I mentioned just now -- I found "Le Francais Pratique" online, at Abebooks, but the seller doesn't indicate if it's I or II. I sent her an email; hopefully she'll answer soon.

Aarrggh! I keep on forgetting to mention: I'm reading "Sarah's Key" right now. It's the June selection for my book club. I'd heard of it but didn't know much about it beyond that it was about the Holocaust. I didn't know it takes place in France, so that's an interesting coincidence. Also, here's something else that tickled me: One of the characters in the book (actually, two -- they're a couple) lives in the 18th arrondissement!

I just thought that was a funny coincidence. I will happily accept any little funny coincidences that I can choose to see as good omens that I can get.

Maybe you'll meet a French gentleman in the near future Then you can apply for a long stay visa for spouses of a French national. It's much easier to get. That's the visa my American husband got to move to France.

Maybe you can marry Kerouac...?

I think she'd have to get in line to marry kerouac.

"Maybe you'll meet a French gentleman in the near future "

Or maybe I'll win the lottery. (It could happen!) Or maybe I'll make a lot of friends here and someone will know someone who knows someone who's willing to give me a couch to sleep on until I find a place.

Or maybe... maybe... my brother, who is a Canadian citizen, but who also lived in Europe (Germany) for a year, will want to go back and we can go together and help each other financially.

Life is mysterious. That much I've learned after six decades of it. You never know what will happen, or what can.

"Maybe you can marry Kerouac...? "

LOL! Well, I like what I glean about his political views.

"I think she'd have to get in line to marry kerouac."

Oh, whoa! Okay.....

"Well, I like what I glean about his political views"
See...? I knew you were made for each other!

"France and the U.S. have a bilateral agreement to avoid double taxation. Since the U.S. requires filing and taxation of U.S. citizens, they are exempt from French income tax..."

Kerouac, We have lived in France for three years and file in both countries, France and US. I think we need to poke at this to see if we really need to file in France. However, we could be filing in France because some of our retirement income is from UK pensions which we declare in France and not in UK. Will talk to our tax person.

If you're right, and I bet you are, then I have been wrong. However, I am fairly sure France requires reporting on worldwide income, even if, due to reciprocity, little or no income tax is paid.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Katkat... My ex mother in law was French and moved to Canada shortly after the war. She met a Polish man, they married and had a son. When that son was 27 he decided he wanted his citizenship and indeed, he got that citizenship, which is how I then got mine. In our case, the gov't applied the rules from the year the child was born, which are very different from the rules that apply today.
It is possible you may qualify for citizenship.

PS a lot of very bad, very inaccurate tax advice, folks. This forum would do better to stick to travel related questions.

Regarding taxes. We've been in France for nearly 13 years. We are Americans. We went to the Centre des Impôts and discussed what was required in France. They told us we were required to file a French return as we are French resident. We are also required to file a U.S. return. Most of what we pay in the U.S. is off-set by the tax treaty, but not all of it. Our French accountant has advised us the same as the Centre des Impôts. So, we file in both places.

I would agree with Phread in that any tax advice should be obtained from the relevant tax authorities in BOTH countries. It is a very important subject and folks need to know the rules before moving anywhere.

Thanks, 1994. We are doing the same thing.

It is incredible the information you read on forums regarding taxes....

Yes, Cath, we are following the rules.

And, with FATCA being put into place, WATCH OUT !!!

"It is possible you may qualify for citizenship."

I suppose it doesn't hurt to find out for sure. Asking won't leave me worse off, and it might leave me better. I'll give the French consulate a call.

An American Citizen resident in France is liable to pay French tax and as tax rates in France are higher than the USA and allowances much fewer, you will end up paying more. The double tax treaty between the USA and France means you avoid being double taxed, but if your French income tax assessment is higher, you have to pay the additional French tax assessed.
However, income tax is not the killer in France, it is the incredibly high social security costs, that are even payable by retirees.
Since 2007 it has become very difficult if not impossible for a non EU citizen to obtain permanent residency in France, unless through marriage, ancestry, or having highly specialised job skills that are on an official list of occupations where there is a recognised shortage.
In the current economic enviroment, there is a big political backlash in France against inward immigration (like the USA!)and the French government has tightened entry requirements for retirees as they are concerned about health tourism.

"Since 2007 it has become very difficult if not impossible for a non EU citizen to obtain permanent residency in France, unless through marriage, ancestry, or having highly specialised job skills that are on an official list of occupations where there is a recognised shortage."

We have found this to be absolutely true as we opened a Visa dossier in 2008. It was not completed until 2010!!!! It was a whole different ballgame from when I applied moons ago.

incredibly high social security costs

There is nothing incredibly high about the social security costs in France, and even less so when you consider all of the coverage that one receives for the amount paid.

Our French social security rates have been much lower than we would have expected. FAR, FAR less than U.S. social security deductions.

For anybody interested, here is the tax treaty between France and the United States. The part about avoiding double taxation starts on page 24.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/france.pdf

1994, your situation may be different if you are not working and on a relatively low income. Basic research will show that cotisations and taxes in France for individuals and employers are amongst the highest of any OECD country and far higher than the US. Hence the mess the French economy is in.

More disinformation from sprogster!

We pay some social charges but as we have no earned income (retired) we obviously don't pay into the French equivalent of SS. We also do not pay heath cotisations as we are not in the system. So, from our perspective the charges are low but we also receive no benefits.

I mentioned earlier, when my husband reaches 65 we can join the health system because the UK has a reciprocal agreement for rtirees from their respective countries. If the current agreement remains in place, we will not be charged as my husband paid into the UK system for years.

Our income is not low by French standards. We are not retired. Our income tax in France is much lower than it would be in the USA. Keep in mind I said income tax. Our property tax in France is pretty much the equivalent to what we paid in California. We live in Provence.

I think the French consulate -- at least the one in New York -- doesn't answer questions on the phone. I've called them twice now, and both times I get a recorded message saying they're open to the public Monday through Friday from 9am to 1pm, appointments can only be made online, and then the message gives you a number of other options, but each one just leads to another recorded message. The first time I called was on a Friday around 3 or 4 pm, and I thought maybe they get Friday afternoons off. But I just called again about an hour ago, and I got the same recorded message.

"Hence the mess the French economy is in."

So what explains the mess the U.S. economy is in? It's certainly not due to high taxes or too much spending on domestic programs.

I'm finding the discussion interesting because it's always fun to think about the relative benefits and costs of living in another country. And, I'm not sure if I missed it, but I don't think I read anywhere how much time you've spent visiting France, katkat.

"And, I'm not sure if I missed it, but I don't think I read anywhere how much time you've spent visiting France, katkat."

I visited Paris and immediate environs for three weeks in 1978. So, obviously, I have not spent time visiting France in quite a while.

But why did you want to know this? I can't figure out why it became a question in your mind.

I was curious because it takes me awhile before I feel remotely knowledgeable enough to begin to envision what it would be like to really live in another country as opposed to spending vacation time there. Making a permanent move is a big step, and I've enjoyed reading the comments of those who have.

My question was not meant to be a snarky, and I am sorry if i offended you.

"not meant to be snarky"

Bookmarking
We considered property purchase in the Drome earlier this year, then realized we had no idea even how much time we'd be allowed to spend there in a given year.
This is a mine of information. I'm keen to learn chapter and verse about French residency.

"My question was not meant to be a snarky, and I am sorry if i offended you."

Thanks for clarifying, cw. I was NOT offended, just puzzled. The Internet is such a flat medium, it's really hard sometimes to get someone's meaning -- especially when we all speak a variety of languages!

I definitely agree that visiting a country does not make anyone an expert -- I mean, unless, maybe, you're visiting all the time, which is certainly not the case with me. One of the reasons I joined Fodor's to read and post in the forums is because I want to learn as much as I can about France, and French people: culture, history, sensibilities, quality of life, etc., etc., etc., because my ultimate goal is to move to Paris as soon as I can make that happen (and it probably will not be soon!)

katkat, good luck with your dream and enjoy learning new things every day. Planning for many of us, is half the fun!

I am going to sound very down to earth but ....
You are planning to move to a country you haven't visited in over 30 years. The country has changed since then and may be very different from what you remember. (We all have a tendency to embellish our souvenirs). You are not fluent in French, have limited financial resources and will be alone. Moving in a different country is a huge step in one's life. Have you considered the possibility of yours not being as happy as planned? Will you be able to move back to the US?
Before attempting such a change, I would save my money and spend a month or 2 in France just to see.
But this is just my opinion

Excellent advise from Pvoyageuse.
If you look at it logically from the French authorities stand point, they do not want to allow into France retired individuals on a low income who could well end up as a burden on their health and social security, for which the individual would not have contributed during their working lives. Otherwise, people would be lining up to get into France to take advantage of their excellent health care and social security system.
Although you would not qualify for French health care with the long stay visa, under European human rights legislation the French authorities could not refuse to help if a foreigner was in dire need, so safest option is to prevent the risk arising.
I have to say that if the shoe was on the other foot and a low income retired EU Citizen was posting that they were thinking of moving to the USA and could join medicare, there would be a Republican outrage!!

Kitkat, just to add that you are better off joining a dedicated expat French Forum aimed at Americans rather than a travel forum, where few members are likely to be French resident.

1994, as you are not retired and financially can afford to have a house in Provence, you are clearly in a very different economic situation to KitKat. Also like me I imagine you will be keeping your fingers crossed that the new French Socialist President will not get too silly with raising taxes and reducing the wealth tax band!

"1994, as you are not retired and financially can afford to have a house in Provence, you are clearly in a very different economic situation to KitKat."

I am well aware of that. Does that mean I cannot offer my thoughts on her situation? I've been here for 13 years and have friends in all socio-econonmic categories here.

By the way, you seem to be implying that we are wealthy because we live in Provence. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are plenty of homes in the area where I live that sell for 100,000 to 140,000. Just as not all people living in Paris are wealthy, neither are all people living in Provence.

1994,likewise I was just highlighting that 13 years on the immigration opportunities for non EU citizens to move to France are much more restricted than in your day, in part due to the economic crisis but also the schengen treaty, whereby non EU citizens visiting Europe are limited to 90 days. Again we can thank America for that in that they imposed a 90 day restriction on EU visitors to the States!
You will also be aware there is a huge anti immigration sentiment in France at the moment.

Oh dear, katkat. I had no idea your experience with France was so very limited. Of course it's not your fault that it is, but honestly, one trip to France 30 years ago and now you want to go live there? That is truly a fantasy, a pipe dream, and one that could so easily backfire on you.

You need to learn French. Really learn it, so you can call a plumber and tell him the pilot light in your water heater is out, so you can telephone emergency services or handle a visit to a French doctor, so you can file proper documentation at the mairie in French...etc. Knowing how to order a croissant at a patisserie isn't what I'm talking about.

Then you need to go spend some time in Paris, or wherever it is you want to live, and do it in the dead of winter. And stay for awhile, as in a couple of months at least. The difference between what you are likely imagining and what the reality is, is probably enormous.

To give you a benchmark, I made 25-30 trips to France, many of them for a month or two, before buying a house there. Even then, I had SO much to learn!

This isn't to rain on your parade - I know first hand the lure of living in France. BUT, I honestly feel you can't possibly know what you're getting into without lots more experience on the ground and with the language.

"and financially can afford to have a house in Provence"


Sprogster : you should spend a few hours in the Northern Districts of Marseilles (quartiers Nord) before making such broad statements
PACA has a very high number of RSA beneficiaries - above national average in fact.

"1994,likewise I was just highlighting that 13 years on the immigration opportunities for non EU citizens to move to France are much more restricted than in your day"

Yes, I believe I touched on that (and have experience with non-EU VISA apps since 'my day') in an earlier post on this thread. Perhaps you missed it:

Your quote:

"Since 2007 it has become very difficult if not impossible for a non EU citizen to obtain permanent residency in France, unless through marriage, ancestry, or having highly specialised job skills that are on an official list of occupations where there is a recognised shortage."

My reply:

We have found this to be absolutely true as we opened a Visa dossier in 2008. It was not completed until 2010!!!! It was a whole different ballgame from when I applied moons ago.

I am well aware of the changes and the difficulties.

"Oh dear, katkat. I had no idea your experience with France was so very limited. Of course it's not your fault that it is, but honestly, one trip to France 30 years ago and now you want to go live there? That is truly a fantasy, a pipe dream, and one that could so easily backfire on you."

Well, perhaps you're right. But you and others have made all these points to me already, multiple times actually, so I'm not sure why you're going on about it again, at such length. I'm not offended, but I'm a little put off, or maybe taken aback is a better term, at your tone. It feels overly condescending and sarcastic to me. I don't see the need for that, when you're not telling me anything you and others haven't already told me, in a nicer albeit clear way.

There's also the fact that I have basically agreed with almost all of your cautions (yours and others).

I perhaps should tell you that fall and winter are my favorite seasons, and that I love the rain, and thunderstorms. We're having one right now in northern New Jersey. I did say that I hate summer and hot weather, so it would make more sense for you to warn me that Paris summers are just as bad as those in NYC, which actually someone else here already did.

I guess I'll stop at this, for now.

"To give you a benchmark, I made 25-30 trips to France, many of them for a month or two, before buying a house there. Even then, I had SO much to learn!"

I don't have that kind of money, so if having the financial resources to make 25 or 30 transatlantic trips to France is the only realistic basis on which to consider moving there, then I guess I'm out of luck.

Quoting myself: "I don't have that kind of money,..."

Or time, I might add. I'm 61, 62 in July. How old are you, St.Cirq?

While I agree that katkat's experience is insufficient to make any sort of decision yet, I do believe that the internet and many other possible sources of information now make it much easier to get an idea of the sort of place where one would want to live. Obviously, some very serious on-the-ground investigation is required as well.

I agree, kerouac. And while it's obviously not necessary to make 25-30 trips (which I wasn't doing just to scout out property until the last few), I can't see having no on-the-ground experience whatsoever. As for money, one needs to weigh spending SOME money to gain real-time experience against making an overseas move without having a realistic sense of what one's getting into.

And my reference to dead of winter wasn't entirely about climate.

I'm 60.

My point, StCirq, is that everything, except for your remark about 25 to 30 trips, had been said to me already, many times, and I had acknowledged the truth and wisdom of what you, all of you, had told me. In particular, your entire paragraph, telling me in great detail why I need to learn French before even thinking about moving to France, was something that YOU YOURSELF had told, in very similar words and in the same detail, earlier in this thread. Your added remark about how ordering croissants at a patisserie is not what you mean by learning French was unkind, and it was also patronizing in the extreme. I don't know what would make you think, or what did make you think, that I believe ordering croissants in French is what learning French means. I'm not a child, and I'm also not stupid.

Fundamentally, your comment was unnecessary and unkind. It was unkind *because* it was unnecessary. I do not like unkindness, whether directed at me or at others.

I'll leave it at that.

Got it. So sorry I tried to help.

"While I agree that katkat's experience is insufficient to make any sort of decision yet, I do believe that the internet and many other possible sources of information now make it much easier to get an idea of the sort of place where one would want to live."

Thank you for this, kerouac.

"Obviously, some very serious on-the-ground investigation is required as well."

And this is something I already know, whether I've explicitly stated it or not. It should be assumed from (1) everything I've already written here and the totality of my responses to the advice I've been given; and from (2) my being a grown woman with 60 years of life experience, as opposed to being a little girl or a teenager, that I know this. If StCirq (or anyone) wanted to make the point specifically, it could have been done in a more matter-of-fact manner and not in the patronizing manner it was done.

"Got it. So sorry I tried to help."

You're not sorry, and what you wrote was not, in my view, an attempt to help. If I had rejected other offers of helpful advice here, I might be able to understand why you would write to me the way you did. But as it is, not so much.

I would never ask for an apology, because that's hard for anyone to do, and I really don't need it. All I expect is some indication that you understand how your manner of expression made me feel, even if it was unintentional. If you cannot do that, then silence would be better than this ridiculous response you made.

I'm sorry you've taken StCirq's comments so negatively. He did offer some hard to hear words, but I have to agree with most of what he said - maybe I might have said it a little differently.

You've taken all the critical words really well katkat. I don't think anyone thinks you are juvenile or uneducated and I think we can all respect your dream. I think we are trying, in the only ways we know how, to tell you what WE have learned from doing what you would like to do. Of course all of our situations are different, but some things remain the same, no matter how much money you have or whatever your personal circumstances.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think it is those things we are trying to convey.

"He did offer some hard to hear words, but I have to agree with most of what he said - maybe I might have said it a little differently."

He might have said it a lot differently, and that's the point. My reaction has nothing to do with what he said being hard to hear. Take a look back at my 7:14 pm on May 21 for convincing proof of that.

"I think we are trying, in the only ways we know how, to tell you what WE have learned from doing what you would like to do."

Except for this one single comment from StCirq, I have ZERO problem with anything that anyone has said to me here. ZERO.

"... I think it is those things we are trying to convey."

There is no we here, 1994. There is only one. You are not included in my angry reaction to StCirq. You have done nothing to make me angry. You even apologized for offending me when you had done nothing offensive. I don't mind being told the truth based on someone's experience that is greater than mine. I want that, and I've made that clear.

I had the great advantage of possessing a French passport from birth, but when I decided at age 18 to move to Paris as soon as I got my university degree, I knew just about as much about living in Paris as kitkat -- I arrived at age 20 (yes, I was a bit ahead in my university studies). The first years were quite difficult, even though I got a job quickly. And absolutely nothing from my American university studies turned out to be useful on the French job market, nor did an American diploma even impress the French.

Well, 40 years have now passed, and I never regretted my decision. I am manager of my office, head of the employee relations committee, trade union delegate, president of the owner's association of my building, member of the management committee of my mother's nursing home, and I just turned down a position in my political party, because I demanded that it go to a young person.

And in one month I will stop working for the rest of my life. I will get out of all of these other situations (except the nursing home) and finally start living at last.

All it takes is a little patience to get what you want out of life.

Kerouac : good for you but you can't really compare your circumstances with katkat's. You were 20 when you moved, you were presumably fluent in French - she is 60, an age when it is more difficult to learn a foreign language because memory starts to fail you. At 20 one makes friends easily, one does not mind bumming it for a while. At 60 it is a different story. You got a job, she is retired - i.e. little contact with the outside world that a job provides. In Paris she'd be a little above poverty level - slightly better off in a small town somewhere. But she'd be very isolated. She won't have many opportunities to make friends in Smalltown, France. This would be my main concern if I were in her place (which I'm not !).

StCirq - does having been a property owner in France for years grease the skids any? I assume you must have been paying some sort of property tax there.

I am also sorry you have taken StCirq's comments so negatively, because frankly she was only being honest with you. This is an internet travel forum, perhaps you really should be asking these questions on one of the ex-pat boards. And while I am quite sure you do not want to hear this either, I was also taken aback to realize that your experience with France is limited and dated. I would strongly suggest you save some of your resources and spend as much time as you can afford on a trip to Paris. And I am close to your age, if that matters. We have visited Italy often in the last 15 years, and with my limited language skills, and even with the resources we are fortunate to have, I cannot even imagine living in a country with said language skills. Not at all.

Kerouac, I appreciate your kindness and your encouraging words. If I'm being honest, though, I have to say I think Pvoyageuse has a point -- maybe several in fact.

I wish that it had occurred to me to move to France when I was 20. It's not that my feeling for France (and for The Netherlands, for that matter) started yesterday. I didn't "suddenly decide" I wanted to go to France. But when I was 20 I lacked the confidence to do anything like that. It just didn't occur to me that I could. And then life happened to me. I got married, we had to deal with a serious medical issue, I had a child, I got divorced, and yadda yadda yadda. And while I was doing all these things, moving to Europe was not at the forefront of my mind. Now my daughter is grown and I have a small but adequate fixed income, and the dream I always kept at the back of my mind has raised its hand to get my attention again.

Only now I'm 62 (almost), and all the difficulties that Pvoyageuse mentions have to be considered. But still in spite of all that reality, I can't help asking myself the question: WHY can't I do this? I can't seem to give it up.

Again, see if you can find the resources for a month long stay. Rent a small apartment, live frugally and see if this is what you really want to do.

katkat - since you are Jewish you could move to Israel, obtain citizenship under the "law of return" and be qualified for all of the social benefits. It too has an excellent health system. This is not a difficult thing to do. As far as weather, summers in the Galilee are delightful.

"I am also sorry you have taken StCirq's comments so negatively, because frankly she was only being honest with you."

Everyone here has been honest with me. Have you seen me react negatively even once before this?

"I would strongly suggest you save some of your resources and spend as much time as you can afford on a trip to Paris."

I would love to do that. I already know that I can spend 90 days in France just as a tourist, using only my passport. I actually have thought of these possibilities, even though I don't write down here everything that's in my head.

In fact, if I could visit France every year for at least a month, I would very probably find that a satisfying alternative to actually moving there. I can't even do that right now.

"Rent a small apartment, live frugally and see if this is what you really want to do."

I've thought of that, but are most landlords willing to rent for only a few months?

Then again, honestly, how do you propose to actually afford the move, adding up the expenses of moving, including airfare, shipping goods, etc? There will be fees with the paperwork, assuming you can get them, not to mention health insurance, appliances, etc. I do wish you well, good luck.

"katkat - since you are Jewish you could move to Israel, obtain citizenship under the "law of return" and be qualified for all of the social benefits. It too has an excellent health system. This is not a difficult thing to do. As far as weather, summers in the Galilee are delightful."

That would be a really good idea, except that I cannot see myself moving to Israel. I would *love* to even visit Israel -- I've never been there. But I won't do it as things stand at the moment (and as they show no signs of changing).

I want to be very cautious about getting into a serious, controversial political issue here, but Israel does not feel like an option for me right now. I pray that someday it will be.

And I do, very much, appreciate the suggestion.

"Then again, honestly, how do you propose to actually afford the move, adding up the expenses of moving, including airfare, shipping goods, etc?"

Exactly. That's why I wrote, "I can't even do that right now" at 4:25pm

To answer your other question, yes you can find short term rentals - a month would be a good idea.

katkat - I understand your feelings about the Israeli political situation and share many of these feelings myself. However, it is very diverse, politically and in many other ways, as secular as you want to be country that (and let's keep this non political lest this useful thread be lost) has been in the business of absorbing immigrants from all over the world for many years and has lots of supports for that including housing help and language classes - not to mention there lots of English speakers there. You could maintain dual citizenship if you like and could live comfortably within your income. For example, as a retiree, your health insurance payment would be a bit under $45/month and that includes most everything. Frankly, I don't know how you have been able to manage on your income in NJ - it has to be very tough. You could use some relief - being able to live decently within your fixed income in what is really a very diverse society is something to seriously consider.

Katkat,

There is no need to pay for rent on a visit to France, there are ways of staying in France for free. You can house-sit for up to 3 months and hopefully sublet your apartment in the US to someone reliable if your owner allows it.

When we lived in the US, we used the services of house-sitters to take care of our cats when we were vacationing in France for two weeks. It was free pet sitting services for us and free housing for them so it's a win win. For some house sitters it's just a way of traveling around the world for cheap but for others (mostly retirees) it was a lifestyle. The site we used was http://www.housecarers.com/

So all you need to save is enough money for an air ticket and since you prefer to avoid summer you'd also be avoiding the highest air fares.

"To answer your other question, yes you can find short term rentals - a month would be a good idea."

Wow. That's great. First good news I've heard in days.

And just to add to the above: I'm assuming that a short-term rental would be less expensive than even a budget hotel?

"For example, as a retiree, your health insurance payment would be a bit under $45/month and that includes most everything."

Wowww! That definitely qualifies as awesome.

"Frankly, I don't know how you have been able to manage on your income in NJ - it has to be very tough."

Ohhh yeah. You have no idea. It's been hell on earth, although it's not hell on earth anymore, it's just difficult and frustrating because I can't afford to do anything that isn't necessary to sustain human (and feline) life. But from 2000, when I divorced, and 2009, when my SSD app was approved, it was a nightmare.

Yes, you can find a rental for a month or for 3 months. They will be vacation rentals, so they might not be terribly cheap, but deals can often be struck. If you can find a house sitting job, that would be perfect.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but a month long visit to Paris (or anywhere foreign) is not likely to give you any serious example of what life is like there. However, at least it will get you IN the country to have a more recent look-see.

Since you won't have to deal with anything serious, no utility hook-ups, no insurance, no taxes, no residency cards, no break down calls (for utilities or otherwise), no letters required to read, no major purchases, no deliveries to arrange, no directions to give or take (short of how to find a metro stop), you will only be getting a tiny sample of what it is like to be in France.

I'm am NOT discouraging you, but I would suggest you spend ONE year in France, if you can get a VISA. However, this would require you giving up your apt. in N.J. Could you use your daughter's home as a return brief stopping point IF you want to return at the end of the year. Then, you'd know you have a place to return to (temporarily) at the end of your year in France. This is a comfort zone issue.

If you know going in that you have one full year to see how you like it, I think it will feel less overwhelming. You know you will have a full year to enjoy (hopefully) and get to really know the system. You will also know that you have an end and if all goes pear shaped, you will be able to return home.

You'd still need the VISA and you'd still have to apply for the carte de sejour on arrival, as required by the Long Stay VISA process, but it seems much more logical under your personal circumstances.

Just an idea to add to your already growing thought process.

We rented for our first year in France. It gave me time to get to know how life works in France. Our daughter was 7 at the time, so I HAD to integrate. Still, renting that first year was the greatest thing we ever did.

In addition to the housecarers.com website I listed above, here are other house-sitting websites. Hopefully you'll find a great match in either France or the Netherlands:
http://europeanhomesitting.echs.eu/
http://www.housesitworld.com/europe/
http://www.mindmyhouse.com/owners/sitter_listing/2919
http://www.housesitads.com/
http://www.trustedhousesitters.com/

I don't know if it is appropriate for you, but might want to try house exchange. We are exchanging this summer with a couple from Amsterdam and we are renting a flat in Paris, but we own our house (the bank owns it, but it pay it every month not to take it away (joke)).

"I'm assuming that a short-term rental would be less expensive than even a budget hotel?"

Yes, especially off season and more comfortable - even in a vacation rental.
Check if heating is included. It adds up very quickly in winter.

This thread is extremely valuable. Many posters are replying , I think, in a sincere and realistic way, according to their individual experiences. I’ve been following the thread, but will simply begin ‘at the end’.


>>>Kerouac: ‘all it takes is a little patience to get what you want out of life.”>>


AND, >>>Pyvoyaguse: Kerouac : good for you but you can't really compare your circumstances with katkat's. You were 20 when you moved, you were presumably fluent in French - she is 60, an age when it is more difficult to learn a foreign language because memory starts to fail you. At 20 one makes friends easily, one does not mind bumming it for a while. At 60 it is a different story. You got a job, she is retired - i.e. little contact with the outside world that a job provides. In Paris she'd be a little above poverty level - slightly better off in a small town somewhere. But she'd be very isolated. She won't have many opportunities to make friends in Smalltown, France. This would be my main concern if I were in her place (which I'm not !).>>>>
_______________________________________________________

I think that you’re both ‘ right.’
KITKAT, everyone is replying within their own experience. What you may see as ‘a negative post’ is only based on how each one would make this step . My overwhelming impression is that the replies that tend to sound ‘negative’ are based on the fear that you are ‘Not Taking Care of Yourself’. You need to make yourself aware of all possibilities and, Take Care of Yourself.


We are sympatico in some ways….same age, not having a wealthy situation, love the idea of living in France. ( for me, living in Paris.)


We are different in other ways…I’ve visited Paris (and Provence) 7 times in the last ten years. Longer visits, 5 of them for a month at a time, renting apartments. (good choices, they were relatively inexpensive and, beautiful.) I deliberately chose the longer visits, almost hoping that once I was there in a somewhat ‘more normal’ situation that I wouldn’t be as obsessed. WRONG. I loved it more with each visit. The longer visits were lovelier on many different levels, levels I had not even been aware of. Yes, more daily problems, but also more moments of beauty. Out of time, out of place.


Someone above suggested you visit specific ‘expat’ forums. Good idea. Essentially, visit and post your question on any relevant forum. (ie: TripAdvisor/AnyPortinaStorm/SlowTravel/OurParis/ThornTree etc. Some good thoughts may come.


Of course, you could read some books on moving to France. This is not as obvious as it may seem. Most of the huge available book market re: France seem to be written by people 25-50 (the oldest). While good, occasionally relevant, and entertaining , they are written by people who are 20 years younger than you, with vastly different issues, which brings us back to Pvoyageuse’s comments. (early quote in this post).

Note: if you are at all serious, learn how to speak French! This will ultimately be the beginning and the end of your experience.

OK. For you, since moving to France does not involve selling your home:

The Worst Case Scenario:
You decide to go to live in France and ‘leave it all behind’. However, within months you are unhappy, lonely and hate the life.
Mulling it over: ---‘would I rather be unhappy, lonely and miserable in France, or, would I rather be unhappy, lonely and miserable in the US?
This is, of course, the Worst Case. What you propose is a Risk. But, it could easily have good or great results. Who knows?








This thread is extremely valuable. Many posters are replying , I think, in a sincere and realistic way, according to their individual experiences. I’ve been following the thread, but will simply begin ‘at the end’.
>>>Kerouac: ‘all it takes is a little patience to get what you want out of life.”>>
AND, >>>Pyvoyaguse: Kerouac : good for you but you can't really compare your circumstances with katkat's. You were 20 when you moved, you were presumably fluent in French - she is 60, an age when it is more difficult to learn a foreign language because memory starts to fail you. At 20 one makes friends easily, one does not mind bumming it for a while. At 60 it is a different story. You got a job, she is retired - i.e. little contact with the outside world that a job provides. In Paris she'd be a little above poverty level - slightly better off in a small town somewhere. But she'd be very isolated. She won't have many opportunities to make friends in Smalltown, France. This would be my main concern if I were in her place (which I'm not !).>>>>
_______________________________________________________

I think that you’re both ‘ right.’
KITKAT, everyone is replying within their own experience. What you might see as ‘a negative post’ is only based on how each one would make this step . My overwhelming impression is that the replies that tend to sound ‘negative’ are based on the fear that you are ‘Not Taking Care of Yourself’. You need to make yourself aware of all possibilities and, Take Care of Yourself.
We are sympatico in some ways….same age, not having a wealthy situation, love the idea of living in France. ( for me, living in Paris.)
We are different in other ways…I’ve visited Paris (and Provence) 7 times in the last ten years. Longer visits, 5 of them for a month at a time, renting apartments. (good choices, they were relatively inexpensive and, beautiful.) I deliberately chose the longer visits, almost hoping that once I was there in a somewhat ‘more normal’ situation that I wouldn’t be as obsessed. WRONG. I loved it more with each visit. The longer visits were lovelier on many different levels, levels I had not even been aware of. Yes, more daily problems, but also more moments of beauty. Out of time, out of place.
Someone above suggested you visit specific ‘expat’ forums. Good idea. Essentially, visit and post your question on any relevant forum. (ie: TripAdvisor/AnyPortinaStorm/SlowTravel/OurParis/ThorTree etc. Some good thoughts may come.
Of course, you could read some books on moving to France. This is not as obvious as it may seem. Most of the huge available book market re: France seem to be written by people 25-50 (the oldest). While good, occasionally relevant, and entertaining , they are written by people who are 20 years younger than you, with vastly different issues, which brings us back to Pvoyageuse’s comments. (early quote in this post).
Note: if you are at all serious, learn how to speak French! This will ultimately be the beginning and the end of your experience.
OK. For you, since moving to France does not involve selling your home:
The Worst Case Scenario:
You decide to go to live in France and ‘leave it all behind’. However, within months you are unhappy, lonely and hate the life.
Mulling it over: ---‘would I rather be unhappy, lonely and miserable in France, or, would I rather be unhappy, lonely and miserable in the US?
This is, of course, the Worst Case. What you propose is a Risk. But, it could easily have good or great results. Who knows?

Basingstoke and FrenchMystique, you have lifted my mood with your encouragement and the information you've given me. It occurs to me that if I retired to Israel, I could afford to travel to France! How's that for win-win?

Okay, now I have to add CopperandJade to the list of people trying to inspire me with hope. It's working.

"‘would I rather be unhappy, lonely and miserable in France, or, would I rather be unhappy, lonely and miserable in the US?"

LOL! I believe that this question answers itself.

"Someone above suggested you visit specific ‘expat’ forums. Good idea. Essentially, visit and post your question on any relevant forum."

Ahead of you there. I've already signed up with CouchSurfers (which I found as a link in an article about moving to Paris on a low budget), and I'm going to sign up at ExpatForum, just haven't had a chance yet.

"(the bank owns it, but it pay it every month not to take it away (joke))."

Oh believe me I've been there.

"In addition to the housecarers.com website I listed above, here are other house-sitting websites."

Awesome. Thank you, FrenchMystique.

"Please don't take this the wrong way, but a month long visit to Paris (or anywhere foreign) is not likely to give you any serious example of what life is like there."

I don't take that the wrong way. It's not what you say, it's the way you say it. And you said it fine.

And yeah, I would definitely prefer to spend three months in Paris than one.

"I would suggest you spend ONE year in France, if you can get a VISA."

Right, I'd love to, but a lot of people here have given me very low odds of getting a long-term visa approved, with my income and no health insurance. If that's reality, then that's reality, but if it is reality, then what's the point of trying to get a long-term visa?

"Could you use your daughter's home as a return brief stopping point IF you want to return at the end of the year."

Unlikely. My daughter is 22 and living in her first apartment with two friends from college.

"You will also know that you have an end and if all goes pear shaped, you will be able to return home."

If all goes pear-shaped? Context tells me that this means if things go badly, but why is badly pear-shaped?

Ok. Once again, I have not read all of the replies in laborious detail. But, my overwhelming feeling is that you, KITKAT, need to think. Thinking will mean just that, and not selecting out what you want to hear.


Examples:

KEROUAC: (you like his replies) He moved to France at the age of 20, with one French parent who registered him at the embassy. Thus, automatic citizenship and all of its’ eventual rewards. In addition to these automatic rewards… what one was does at the age of 20 is very different from what one does at 60. At that age, the world is before you, ‘que sera, sera’. You are not 20.


FRENCHMYSTIQUE: (you like his replies) He moved there far later in life, 40-50? and married a French citizen. Thus, many benefits were again, automatic…many, many roads were well paved in advance. Benefits that will be denied to you, benefits that will probably never be part of your reality. Your situation would be totally different.


YES, I appreciate the input of Kerouac and FMT, very much. Fabulous advice on many issues. But, you need to be realistic, for your own eventual well-being. Which leads me to….


ST. CIRQ: (you do NOT seem to like her replies) I do think that you should at Mimimum, listen to what she is saying. Throughout my history of reading this forum, her posts have been true, good and extremely helpful. In your situation, your OP , the difference is that what she is saying is FAR, FAR closer to your present reality than Kerouc’s or FrenchMystique’s.

"I have not read all of the replies in laborious detail. But, my overwhelming feeling is that you, KITKAT, need to think. Thinking will mean just that, and not selecting out what you want to hear."

CopperandJade,

I am unclear about your point in this comment, what you're trying to tell me.

I can't reply to anything you've said because I don't know what I'm replying to.

However, I am going to assume you mean well, and just leave it at that.

To attempt to clarify:

Well, KitKat, I do mean well and my point is as stated above. To repeat,

’ my overwhelming feeling is that you, KITKAT, need to think. Thinking will mean just that, and not selecting out what you want to hear.’

I am concerned that you are simply not thinking about the information in this thread. Because you would love to live in France, (I certainly am sympatico with this), you seem to be resistant to some good and pragmatic advice.

To Repeat and be more specific:

You seem to be very influenced by Kerouac and FrenchMystique, but offended and resistant to St. Cirq.

Kerouac: is a French citizen by birth. You will never have his advantages.

FrenchMystique: is a French citizen by marriage. You will never have his advantages.

St. Cirq: is neither, but has become at part of French society in one sense. Her situation and her thoughts are most pragmatic and helpful for you. She has owned property and has lived here.

Therefore, with what you want to do…go and live in France at the age of 60, you are much closer to the thoughts of St. Cirq., than Kerouac or FMT. Given that you do NOT have a French parent (Kerouac) and you are NOT married to a French citizen(FMT), Indeed, their situations have many benefits. You will NEVER enjoy these benefits, unless you marry a French citizen. So, while I appreciate their comments of goodwill…it will never apply to you.

I think it’s a good idea to listen to other thoughts. More realistic, in your situation. St. Cirq’s comments and reality are closer to your own. As are many other thoughts in this thread. I don’t understand why you are at all upset by her remarks. I wish you well, but think that you should remain open .

Hi, basingstoke. I'm mystified by your question about the skids. Yes, I've been paying property taxes (they are really minimal in the Périgord for 19 years), but I don't understand your question - is it that I have some advantage by virtue of having paid property taxes for something or other? If so the answer is no, none.

And thank you, Copperand Jade. The OP is incensed because I present a realistic view of what's in store for her. I wasn't obnoxious in my replies, just realistic. And frankly, if she took umbrage at my remarks, I wonder how she'll deal with the average daily barrage from the local boulangerie in Paris. You have to have a thick skin to survive Paris, you know.

"I am concerned that you are simply not thinking about the information in this thread. Because you would love to live in France, (I certainly am sympatico with this), you seem to be resistant to some good and pragmatic advice."

It's not that I was unable to read what you wrote, CopperandJade, the problem is that I have no idea where you get this notion from.

To Repeat and be more specific:

You seem to be very influenced by Kerouac and FrenchMystique, but offended and resistant to St. Cirq.

Kerouac: is a French citizen by birth. You will never have his advantages.

FrenchMystique: is a French citizen by marriage. You will never have his advantages.

St. Cirq: is neither, but has become at part of French society in one sense. Her situation and her thoughts are most pragmatic and helpful for you. She has owned property and has lived here."

CopperandJade, I do appreciate your giving me this information about the details of the circumstances of some of the people who have replied to me. You probably know their circumstances much better than I do, as you have been here longer. I appreciate that you are trying to let me know which people here are giving me helpful advice, and which aren't. And I understand your point, that St. Cirq's experience and circumstances make her the best person to advise me.

I think that's what you're saying. You're trying to tell me who I should listen to and who I shouldn't. And I understand that you think I've decided to follow people's advice based on whether I like them or not. I understand that you believe when I thank someone for trying to help me, it means I've decided to take their advice over someone else's.

My response is that your interpretation of my behavior is mistaken. I find it inexplicable that you are saying these things, because I have no clue how your interpretation connects to what I've said and what others here have said.

But if this is how you see it, I realize you're trying to help me, and I thank you for that.

"You have to have a thick skin to survive Paris, you know."

This actually might explain your communication style, StCirq.

"St. Cirq: is neither, but has become at part of French society in one sense. Her situation and her thoughts are most pragmatic and helpful for you."

This is valuable information, CopperandJade. If you tell me StCirq's situation and thoughts are most pragmatic and helpful for me, then I have an obligation to take that seriously. I don't know how long you've been here, but certainly longer than I have, and I think you're probably right that you know much better than I do which people's advice is helpful and pragmatic for me, and which isn't.

I'm just wondering: Can you take a look at all the other people here who have given me advice and suggestions (because there are a lot you didn't mention), and tell me which ones I should listen to and which I shouldn't? Because that could save me a lot of time.

Thanks, CandJ. I appreciate it.

"FrenchMystique: is a French citizen by marriage. You will never have his advantages."

That might not be true, because as FrenchMystique told me, I could always marry Kerouac. Of course, FM might not be a person worth listening to; he's one of the people you didn't mention. So you'll have to let me know, after you complete your evaluation of the remaining participants' advice to me.

Ooops, sorry, you did mention him -- obviously! So I guess that means I'm not marrying Kerouac. FeminineMystique's advice is no good for me.

It's saving me a lot of work to have you around, CandJ!

katkat:

No, I’m not telling you who to listen to.

No, I’m not giving ‘top secret’ info on various posters. All that I said was well known.

I was only trying to suggest that you consider listening to people who might be closer to your own situation, and have had experience, rather than those who come from more advantageous situations…which is certainly not yours. ‘ Advantageous’ meaning they are French citizens or married to French citizens.

Anyway, ( now leaving any further discussion, life is short!), I think I understand that you spent 3 weeks in France in 1978 and now you want to move there for the rest of your life.

I feel compelled to add my experiences here, though I’m not sure that katkat will listen. I, too, think your plan is unrealistic and very ill-advised at this time.

I was burning with the desire to live in Europe (my preferences were Switzerland or Germany), and I was certain that the joy and buzz and beauty of living there would far out-weigh any problems of daily life. I burned with this desire for 40 years, starting in 1968 when my family moved to Florida, until 2008 when I finally made it happen; in the meantime I did manage to live in Paris for one year and in Germany for three years with the military.

When it came time to make the move, I had a LOT more resources than you seem to have. I had my military health coverage that works worldwide, and I had my pension, which gives me a basic standard of living.

Before I moved, I spent one month living in Germany and two months living in Switzerland, just as a pre-taste to see what it might be really like to live there.

And then I moved. I can tell you that it was hell, utter hell. I was wholly unprepared for the different way of life – it is far different trying to get things fixed in your apartment on a Bavarian work schedule than it is just trying to get a hotel reservation or directions to a restaurant!! I had ear-bleeds for about the first two months because the stress was so high. I quit, actually quit, a few times every week. I wrote a friend and posed the question if I might live in her basement in New York while I recovered from the financial disaster of the move. (She elegantly and politely refused, thank God.)

I did trudge on through the problems and the bureaucracy. I love my life now and love all the benefits of living in Bavaria. But I have to say. I would kill for some actual closet space and a utility room. I still day-dream about moving back to the US and into a spacious townhouse.

I would say that you are simply not prepared financially or ready (language, customs, habits) to make the move and to survive it. I really think you should slow down and make some interim plan – find a vacation home in Paris that you can afford and live there for two months. See how that fits. Then plan from there. Extend it. Do that twice a year. Make contacts and friends in Paris. Move slowly.

Anyway. Good luck to you!

s

Let me give you some basic information on how I made my move.

I sold my condo (which you don’t have to do). I put all my things in storage. In fact, I had the moving company put all my things into shipping crates, so that all they had to do was put the crates on a boat. The storage cost me about $100/month, so you need to add that into your expenses.

I rented an apartment, much cheaper than I could afford. Then I did the paperwork and bureaucracy to get approval to live in Germany. I’m not sure how the process works in France, but you need to know how it works before you begin, obviously.

Then I went to Ikea and bought a bed and a closet and a set of drawers. I went to a local electronics store and bought the cheapest tv and washer and drier in the store. I got a free couch from a new friend I had made, and I used large cardboard boxes as dining table/desk. I bought the cheapest set of sheets, towels, dishes and glasses I could find – Ikea is a great source for this stuff, as are the classified ads once you can manage in French. In my mind, this was all throw-away stuff that I could afford to lose if I decided to abandon my plan.

I had my friends mail me four big boxes of clothes – which I eventually had to retrieve from the customs office.

It was only after that first year that I decided to make the move permanent. I suggest you find a way to do something like this, some way that you can minimize the risk.


s

"I feel compelled to add my experiences here, though I’m not sure that katkat will listen."

Why wouldn't I listen?

"I was only trying to suggest that you consider listening to people who might be closer to your own situation, and have had experience, rather than those who come from more advantageous situations…which is certainly not yours. ‘ Advantageous’ meaning they are French citizens or married to French citizens."

I listen to everyone who is kind enough to give me the benefit of their experience. I don't listen only to people whose experiences are similar to mine. Indeed, if I only listened to people in this forum whose experiences were similar to my own, I would be listening to very few people. Certainly, StCirq's experiences have been nothing like mine. Her situation is not close to mine, at all. That doesn't mean she can't give helpful advice, but it's not helpful to lard one's advice with snark, sarcasm, condescension, and just plain nastiness.

"I think I understand that you spent 3 weeks in France in 1978 and now you want to move there for the rest of your life."

Actually, no, your understanding does not at all correspond to what I want, or what I have written here. It's an overly simplistic understanding of what I've written here about my lifelong dream. If you decide to come back, and have time to carefully read the entire thread (which I think you said you had not read in its entirety), you might get a less distorted view of what I've been saying here.

"I, too, think your plan is unrealistic and very ill-advised at this time."

Other people have said this and I have agreed that they are probably right. I could not pick up and leave for France tomorrow regardless of whether I wanted to. I don't have the money for an airline ticket. I don't have permission to be in the country for more than 3 months. I haven't found a place to live that I can afford. So whatever it is that you think my "plan" is, it's not happening "at this time."

But is it okay if I still talk about it here?

"I really think you should slow down and make some interim plan – find a vacation home in Paris that you can afford and live there for two months."

That is just as unrealistic as my moving to France tomorrow for the rest of my life. I cannot afford a "vacation home." And even if I made the kind of swap a few people here have suggested, and which I initially thought could be a great idea, I would still have to pay the rent on the apartment I currently live in, and if I do that, then I no longer have any money to fly to France or stay in a vacation home.

Bottom line, I strain to understand why some people continue to believe I plan to chuck my apartment and fly to France tomorrow, or next week, when many others here have already brought me down to earth. It's almost like some people -- especially posters who are new to this thread like yourself -- are replying after having read the last two or three comments without at least scanning what came before that.

Honestly, it's making me feel like I'm Alice in Wonderland fallen down the rabbit hole.

"That might not be true, because as FrenchMystique told me, I could always marry Kerouac."

This is going to be a huge disappointment, I know, ) but marrying a French citizen does not make you French. You have to fill in a number of conditions and wait for a minimum of 4 years after marriage to apply for French nationality.
My next door neighbour married a Peruvian girl in Lima. She had to wait a few months to get a visa and be able to join her husband in France. She got one for one year and will have to ask for yearly renewal.

Hi again,

I am new to responding to this thread, but I have been reading and following it for some days. So, no, I am not new to the thread.

You say that you realize you cannot fly to France tomorrow, nor can you stay for 1-3 months.

So, if I may ask, what are your plans? You keep saying it is your dream, you acknowledge that it's not feasable, so what do you hope/plan/think to do next?

s

A new very difficult written and spoken language test was introduced last year by France to qualify for French citizenship, or permanent residency for non EU citizens. Few non native French speakers would probably be able to pass it, as was no doubt intended!
EU citizens can retire at State retirement age to another EU country, as there is a reciprocol agreement between EU countries that the EU citizen retiree country of origin will pay their new EU country of residence for their health care. No such agreement exists with the USA.
When considering moving to another country as a retiree, one of the main considerations should be health care and if an American citizen retiree moves to France on a long stay visa, it is no longer possible for them to join the French health care system. This means you would be totally reliant on very expensive private health insurance, would not have medicare and if you have any form of existing medical condition might find medical insurance impossible to obtain. Without private health insurance you cannot get a long stay visa and if you allowed your cover to drop, you would not be able to renew your visa.

I will add another point to consider when one is living on a fixed income in a foreign currency.

My parents retired to France in 1972 after going through the full process for American citizens (if only my mother had realized that her French citizenship was still valid!). They had a pretty good pension and my parents had American military health coverage that they could get by going to an American base in Germany for any serious matter. They also had the capital from the house they sold in the U.S. Anyway, their new life had various ups and downs -- big frustrations such as swandav pointed out -- but also a lot of joy.

But in 1980, they decided that they had to move back to the U.S. because the rate of the dollar was so low that it was frightening -- so don't forget that even the variations of the exchange rate must be taken into consideration. (Unfortunately, by the time they managed to sell their French home in early 1981, the dollar had soared again, but it was too late to change their mind.)

'A new very difficult written and spoken language test was introduced last year by France to qualify for French citizenship, or permanent residency for non EU citizens. Few non native French speakers would probably be able to pass it, as was no doubt intended!'

In fact, if you want more information about the test, you can find it on http://www.ciep.fr/tcf/document/manuel_candidat.PDF
In French of course. I am a non-native French speaker (although I have lived her for 18 years, studied hard, and love languages)and answered the sample questions correctly, but I can see that it's not easy.

Oh jeez, I'm repeating myself now... time to retire!

If you want to take the test:
http://www.tv5.org/cms/chaine-francophone/enseigner-apprendre-francais/TCF-FLE/p-6817-Accueil-TCF.htm

The simple questions are, well, simple enough but the 'comprehension écrite" part is indeed tricky (French is my mother-tongue).

Yes, the family member who's VISA took two years to finally get approved, had to take that comprehension/oral test. There were several other tests he had to complete too. I was allowed to go with him, but not allowed to help him. He spoke French prior to arriving, so had no problem, but I can see how people with little or no - or even only conversational French might have issues.

Katkat - it sounds to me that you realize and accept the fact that moving to France is not going to happen in the next couple of years (maybe never). It sounds to me like you have a goal to work towards - save money, study French and read, read, read and read more about France. If you're able to work in a visit, great so be it. Determine what private health cover costs and remember when planning the cost of living do not forget each year when you renew your carte de sejour to include the cost of financial stamps - required at renewal each year. They stamps cost anywhere from 130 to 350 euros.

Just to add, I had many similar experiences as swandav. My first couple of years were frightening. Serious things happened and I had a hard time dealing with the 'way things work' and the language. My daughter's nose was broken in school the first year we arrived. I was still learning the language and dealing with that - insurance (French school insurance), hospitals (no English spoken), completing claim forms (in French), pharmacies (no English spoken) was very hard. All kinds of situations along these lines kept coming up.

We shipped a car over here from the USA. That turned out to be one of my greatest challenges. The paperwork, phone calls, etc. to get the car immatriculated to France was nothing short of a nightmare. I had to pick that car up in Le Havre (no English spoken) and the forms, questions, etc. were almost impossible for me.

I mention these things (and there were thousands more) because they can have a negative impact on your life. Just dealing with banks (no English spoken) can be quite a challenge and it is such an important part of your life here.

So, keep learning your French. When you get here, whether for a holiday or for a year to live - or forever, it will be the greatest gift you could give yourself.

StCirq - yes, that was my question. I was just wondering if having payed any type of taxes to France would have been an advantage.

katkat - it seems then that there are several paths open to you, each with advantages and disadvantages. The first is to stay in the US, either where you are or move to a less expensive US region than NJ. You will be medicare eligible in a few years or perhaps the administration's health care plan may come to fruition before that. Either will help with your health insurance costs. By the way, I am assuming that you are healthy. I you have a pre-existing condition that makes it impossible to find a private health insurer, there are states such as Maryland that offer state options where health insurance is made available at an affordable price for such people.
A second option is to pick up and move to France or other country without a prolonged stay at first with the hope that things will work out and without the benefits that citizenship affords. As you realize, this is a gamble.
A third is to move to a country where the cost of living and health care are low and where you can be a legal resident.
A fourth is to move to a country where you would get citizenship and social supports.
All of these choices have variables that are personal in nature and only you would know which would fit you the best. The advice received on this forum is a start, but only that. In any case, I wish you well.

What keeps getting over looked, is that it is no longer possible to move to France permanently unless you either marry an EU citizen, qualify through parentage, or have a highly specialised job skill on an approved government list and are sponsored by your employer, who must prove they have been unable to find an EU citizen able to do the job.
Senior inter comnpany transferees can get a visa to work in France if sponsored by their existing employer, but these are temporary. As is the non working long stay visa for retirees, which you will not get unless you can pass a medical, obtain comprehensive private medical insurance and demonstrate sufficient means not to need to work, which are much more demanding than the past.
National governments including the USA don't want retiree immigrants, unless they are wealthy, as they are seen as a potential liability on their social security and health systems, which are already stretched to the limit.

I did not read all the replies just above (sorry, just got home) but I see my husband's name mentioned a lot even though he did not contribute to this thread so just a couple of clarifications:

1) I, like others, explained that the OP's chances of getting a long stay visa are close to 0% and we explained why, which she perfectly understood and accepted despite her understandable disappointment.

2) French Mystique (my husband) is not a citizen through marriage. He is just not a French citizen at all, just a US citizen. As Pvoyageuse pointed out, marriage doesn't give you anything automatically. It just makes the process of applying for a visa easier. He had to apply for a long stay visa for spouses of French national and once in France had to attend classes and take tests to get his resident card. He has a yearly resident card which needs to be renewed every year. It is not free and requires a lot of paperwork each time. We were married 6 years before he moved to France and he was denied French citizenship when he applied for it in Boston in 2009 because his French language skills were not deemed sufficient at the time. They have improved since we moved here so he may apply again if he wants. Despite all the hassle, spouses cannot on principle get the visa denied unless there is a strong suspicion of fraud.

As I explained to Katkat, the only way she could hope to get a long stay visa easily is if she was married to a French citizen. That's when I made a joke about her marrying kerouac. Hasn't he proposed yet?

"What keeps getting over looked, is that it is no longer possible to move to France permanently unless you either marry an EU citizen, qualify through parentage, or have a highly specialised job skill on an approved government list and are sponsored by your employer, who must prove they have been unable to find an EU citizen able to do the job."

If this is true, I'm not sure how the our dossier was approved (opened in 2008, approved in 2010). It took forever, but the person applying was not married to an EU citizen, not the child of an EU parent and not arriving (or applying for a specialized work VISA.

Katkat, thanks for starting this thread. I always enjoy a moving-to-France thread, because everybody chimes in with different advice. Lots of us have had the same dream, and some of the people giving you advice have actually made it happen. I encourage you to keep going after your dream, with modifications.

My best thought for you is that you save up enough for an exploratory trip to France of several weeks' duration. Don't go just to Paris. Go to smaller cities and small towns as well. Go when the weather is good and do all the fun stuff a tourist would do, but at the same time be checking out the cost of apartments, transportation, food, and other daily needs. Look for opportunities for the future you to get involved in local life, not just in expat circles. See if there's enough local entertainment for somebody on a low budget. Consider whether you could get along without a car.

To keep costs down as you travel, you can do wwoofing–but you do have to commit to working, and the farms may be hard to get to without a car. You can stay in hostels; take public transportation; and pick up food inexpensively in boulangeries, street markets, and grocery stores. Travel as light as you can and be open to meeting people, which it sounds like you are.

In the meantime, I have a suggestion for improving your French comprehension, the journal en francais facile. You can listen to, and read, the latest news in simple French.

http://www.rfi.fr/radiofr/podcast/journalFrancaisFacile.xml

If you have time on your hands (or can make time), there are plenty of blogs written by Americans, British, and Australians now living in France to give you a taste of what it’s like to be an expat.

Best of all, to me, are the photo reports kerouac and FMT do on another website. They show what a beautiful and fascinating country France is.

Copperandjade,

You did not read my replies. I am one of those (like St-Cirq, Pvoyageuse and a few others) who said katkat could NOT move to France in the present conditions.

The answer of mine she liked had nothing to do with getting a visa, but with finding free accommodation in France if she wants to visit for less than 90 days. After her initial disappointment when she accepted the fact that moving here was close to impossible given her situation, she was happy to see there was a possibility to stay here for a few weeks that was within her limited financial means.

However, do not forget the fact that we have just changed government again and that all of the rules are likely to change once more. Already, the rules regarding foreign students in France are going to change by decree even before the legislative elections, because the Sarkozy rules were abominably xenophobic.

I have a couple suggestions which are probably obvious, but they haven't been mentioned, so here goes.

First, someone said you would be eligible for Medicare in a few years, even though you are already on Medicare and get SS due to some disability. I don't know what that disability is, but obviously one can read and write (and intends to learn French fluently), so it would seem that perhaps one could get a job to earn some money instead of just relying on a SS check. I thought you could earn up to a certain amount, perhaps from a part-time job) before losing some of your SS check. There are jobs out there that are not physical, if that is the disability, plenty of them. And a lot of employers want to hire part-timers nowadays to avoid paying benefits. I have a relative who has a part-time job like that to supplement income, it's a phone job (mystery shopper), there are jobs like that around. I know both SSDI and SSI have some programs where you can earn some money without losing benefits. I think you can up to around $500 a month on SSDI.

Second, the idea that one should wait a few years to see if COLA is going to increase your check a lot isn't necessary. COLA is related to the CPI and you can just look at the trend over the last decade or so and you know it isn't going to be more than 2-3 percent per year on average. It could even be lower if the CPI doesn't change much.

Wow! I just signed in to check if there were any responses to the last message I posted, which was sometime in the wee hours NYC time, and I found a treasure trove. I've skimmed all of them, now I'm going to go back and read them carefully. What I gleaned from my skim, though, in all of them, was supportiveness, encouragement, and good will. Thank you for that.

"This is going to be a huge disappointment, I know, ) but marrying a French citizen does not make you French. You have to fill in a number of conditions and wait for a minimum of 4 years after marriage to apply for French nationality."

I knew that. I mean, I didn't know the details you just gave me, but I didn't think I could become a French citizen automatically just by marrying a French citizen. It's just that I know from everything I've read here and elsewhere that it makes the process easier. It's one advantage, one thing that makes it more likely I'd get a visa approved. I wasn't clear enough about that. I definitely did not intend to suggest I think marrying a French citizen is like a magic fairy wand.

Mainly, my joke about marrying Kerouac was just that. FeminineMystique joked about it first, and it made me laugh, and it lightened the atmosphere of the thread a bit, but of course I'm not offering it as a serious suggestion.

Carlux, Pvoyageuse, and Coquelicot, THANK YOU for the links to information about the French language requirement, and to sites where I can practice reading comprehension.

Like you, Carlux, I love languages (I love language, as an academic subject field, to begin with), and I love to study. I've been much more successful at academic achievement than I have been professionally. There are reasons for that, but my point here is that when I take a formal class, in almost anything, I excel. It's harder to study a foreign language on one's own (harder to motivate yourself and stick to it), but it's not impossible. The links you guys gave me can only help.

"It sounds to me like you have a goal to work towards - save money, study French and read, read, read and read more about France. If you're able to work in a visit, great so be it."

Yes, exactly. That's what I'm going to do.

"The first is to stay in the US, either where you are or move to a less expensive US region than NJ. You will be medicare eligible in a few years or perhaps the administration's health care plan may come to fruition before that. Either will help with your health insurance costs. By the way, I am assuming that you are healthy. I you have a pre-existing condition that makes it impossible to find a private health insurer, there are states such as Maryland that offer state options where health insurance is made available at an affordable price for such people."

1. Re "The first is to stay in the U.S..." Yes, I've been giving a lot of thought to that possibility for several years now. At some point, I'll have to decide among all these choices. It's hard....

2. "You will be medicare eligible in a few years." I'm on Medicare now. I qualified for it one year after my SSD application was approved. Because it's disability, not retirement, I didn't have to wait til 65 to get it.

3. "If you have a preexisting condition..." In the USA, my age is a preexisting condition. It matters not what other health issues I have, or if I have any. A private health insurance policy would be prohibitively expensive, but as long as I'm here, I at least have Medicare. I went without any insurance at all for 10 years after my divorce -- until I was approved for Medicare, actually. I relied on Charity Care at a local hospital when I had to see a doctor.

"Hasn't he proposed yet? "

You made me laugh again, FeminineMystique. for which I love you.

"My best thought for you is that you save up enough for an exploratory trip to France of several weeks' duration."

Excellent advice, Coquelicot. Thank you.

"However, do not forget the fact that we have just changed government again and that all of the rules are likely to change once more."

Yes, that occurred to me as well. Another good reason to wait a few years before moving to France, if I do.

"I don't know what that disability is, but obviously one can read and write (and intends to learn French fluently), so it would seem that perhaps one could get a job to earn some money instead of just relying on a SS check."

1. Clinical depression.

2. I can't work at a traditional job (i.e., for an outside employer), but yes, I have already done some paying work on my own, from home, though it didn't pay much -- writing for content creation sites. But some is better than none. I'm also thinking about drumming up proofreading jobs again. I did that freelance for many years, and it can be lucrative.

If you can get some freelance work in Fr

(Stoopid Fodors!) I was saying that if you can get some freelance work in France (or concerning France), it could make a major difference in your relocation plans.

Would it need to be freelance work for companies or organizations that are physically located in France? Or could I establish some freelance clients here in the States, and then just continue to work for them if I move to France?

If it's just the added income that's important, I would think the latter, but you would know better than me about that.

The main thing necessary to qualify for a long term visa is proof that you will not be a financial burden in France. For some reason, Saudis, Qataris, Emiratis and Kuwaitis manage to do this pretty easily.

"For some reason, Saudis, Qataris, Emiratis and Kuwaitis manage to do this pretty easily."

Oh yeah, that's definitely a mystery.

The long stay visa prohibits you from working in France, as it is aimed at retirees.
1994, presumably the people you helped applied for a long stay visa, not a working visa? Anyway, that was four years ago in 2008 and the rules were tightened last year.
Not aware of a significant resident population of Saudis, Qataris, Emiratis and Kuwaitis in France!! Generally speaking they are wealthy summer visitors that favour London.
I think it a bit arrogant that apparently some Americans think they should have the right to long stays in the EU, when the their country prohibits EU citizens from long stays in America.
As America tightens its border controls don't be surprised when the EU reciprocate. If you don't like it lobby your Congressman!

Sprogster, I work for those nationalities, so I can assure you that they are extremely present and they are here to stay, particularly the Qataris who are less fickle than the Saudis (although the fact that the Saudis own most of the 5-star hotels in Paris says something as well -- the George V, the Prince de Galles, the Crillon, etc.). The Qataris are taking it to a whole new level by having bought the HSBC building on the Champs Elysées and evicting the bank and of course the owning PSG football club. And of course the Emir of Qatar bought the entire tip of the Ile Saint Louis -- the Hôtel Lambert -- from the Rothschilds. Quite a bit a controversy there with the construction of underground parking and ripping up some of the Louis XV bedrooms for the needs of installing elevators...

"Bottom line, I strain to understand why some people continue to believe I plan to chuck my apartment and fly to France tomorrow, or next week, when many others here have already brought me down to earth. It's almost like some people -- especially posters who are new to this thread like yourself -- are replying after having read the last two or three comments without at least scanning what came before that."

Perhaps because this thread is over 200 posts, and impossible for newcomers to read any more than the last few posts.

"I think it a bit arrogant that apparently some Americans think they should have the right to long stays in the EU, when the their country prohibits EU citizens from long stays in America."

I'm not quite sure who you are addressing this comment to. As long as France allows Americans to apply for Long Stay Visa's, they will. France will always have the right to refuse the applicant(s). Whether you think American applicants are arrogant or not is really not part of the equation or process. Thank goodness you are not in the position of processing Visa's.

"Whether you think American applicants are arrogant or not is really not part of the equation or process. Thank goodness you are not in the position of processing Visa's."

Agreed. It's not Americans who want to retire in France who are arrogant about the visa situation; it's the American government.

It's the American government that is arrogant about Americans wanting to retire in France? No, I think it's Americans, who expect another country to help support them, while living off the benefits of their home country's social services, who are a bit arrogant. Unfortunately, we can't always get what we want.

"I think it's Americans, who expect another country to help support them, while living off the benefits of their home country's social services, who are a bit arrogant."

Who are you referring to? No one is supporting us. We earn our own income. We pay taxes in France and the USA. We do not receive any income assistance from either country's government. Contrary, we pay a lot into both. We have private health cover, which we pay a a lot of money for. We pay into BOTH country's Social Security systems. We live in France, so we pay property taxes here.

We are not of an age to earn back the SS we paid in either country. Even if we were, it would be money from a system we paid into (for many years).

Who are you referring to who is 'living off the benefits of their home country" and 'expecting another country to help support them?"

Are you referring to immigrants living in France and collecting CAF money and other govt aid?

I am not talking to you, relax. And frankly, not going to engage on this thread again.

Good luck to the OP.

"It's the American government that is arrogant about Americans wanting to retire in France?"

No, it's the American government that is so arrogant as to expect that other countries will make it easier, or easy, for Americans to stay for long periods while making it harder for citizens of those other countries to stay for long periods in the U.S.

OP, WHAT is it you want, other than a lot of conversation for you to banter with, which I am beginning to see as the "end" game here. Now we are to being mad at the arrogant US government for not letting people come here!!
Have you gotten your answer about "living" in France? How will you handle your health insurance since Medicare won't? Can you afford it in the final analysis? Inquiring minds want to know. there have been so may side trips.

You can't make everyone happy, lots of people complain about foreigners in the US taking away American jobs. And this isn't just a case of undocumented workers on farms, etc., there are lots of people with long-term visas doing regular work in the US, I knew a guy from Denmark working in the US and while he had some experience in his field, I fail to believe there was no person in the US who could have done that job (he had a basic engineering degree). I also worked at a place that got a visa for a Canadian to do general management work in a cosmetics company, just someone the boss knew, that's all. So I don't know the history or reasoning behind the current US visa system, but suspect there were some reasons for it, it didn't happen in a vacuum.

And just being in a place and living there permanently, you do use some social/govt resources just by being there (eg, roads, transportation, schools, fire dept, libraries, etc.).