France is losing the core of its historic provincial towns
Feb 28th, 2017, 12:51 PM
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France is losing the core of its historic provincial towns
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/28/w...=top-news&_r=0
Interesting article from today's New York Times about the gutting of the commercial centers in French towns. Shopping malls built on the periphery led to the deaths of the small shops and cafes in the provincial city centers. Many of these towns now risk becoming the kinds of places only tourists visit.
Sad, as it mirrors the decline of small town America's Main Streets decades ago.
Interesting article from today's New York Times about the gutting of the commercial centers in French towns. Shopping malls built on the periphery led to the deaths of the small shops and cafes in the provincial city centers. Many of these towns now risk becoming the kinds of places only tourists visit.
Sad, as it mirrors the decline of small town America's Main Streets decades ago.
Feb 28th, 2017, 01:12 PM
#2
Yes, the American media would like France to be a quaint Disneylandish experience that never changes so they can have the Kodak moments in the provinces.
More than 50% of French groceries have been bought in suburban hypermarkets for at least the past 10 years. That is the French way of life now, and it is not going to change. Just like everybody else, the locals are looking for the best prices and reasonable quality.
Are better items available in traditional commerces? Of course they are. Is the cost accessible to ordinary people? No it isn't.
Quite a few clever cities have placed shopping malls in the core of the downtown area, and this benefits everybody -- the people looking for all of the chain stores and cheap groceries, and also the traditional commerces that thrive in the surrounding area.
If you think that the French will ever go back to buying tiny amounts that they will carefully place in their wicker baskets, you are mistaken. Do you yourself want to return to the 19th century?
Interestingly enough, Paris is perhaps the city that has retained the greatest percentage of "traditional" ways.
More than 50% of French groceries have been bought in suburban hypermarkets for at least the past 10 years. That is the French way of life now, and it is not going to change. Just like everybody else, the locals are looking for the best prices and reasonable quality.
Are better items available in traditional commerces? Of course they are. Is the cost accessible to ordinary people? No it isn't.
Quite a few clever cities have placed shopping malls in the core of the downtown area, and this benefits everybody -- the people looking for all of the chain stores and cheap groceries, and also the traditional commerces that thrive in the surrounding area.
If you think that the French will ever go back to buying tiny amounts that they will carefully place in their wicker baskets, you are mistaken. Do you yourself want to return to the 19th century?
Interestingly enough, Paris is perhaps the city that has retained the greatest percentage of "traditional" ways.
Feb 28th, 2017, 01:34 PM
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Orleans is one large or medium large city that my son who grew up there and which does feature a Carrefour-anchored shopping mall.
The mall has never done extremely well - French want to drive to their shopping venues and park out front like Americans do and yes the advent of shopping malls and hypermarches on main roads in suburbs there is at least 35 years old- not a new phenomenon.
He has noted a dramatic shift in ethnic folks downtown - something that unfortunately drives others away - groups of tough looking types hanging out all over - rarely seen until the last few years.
And yes France is not a museum and things change -but the change was years ago - as Orleans like many French cities IME is near totally deserted after 7pm and on Sundays- except for some restaurant streets.
The mall has never done extremely well - French want to drive to their shopping venues and park out front like Americans do and yes the advent of shopping malls and hypermarches on main roads in suburbs there is at least 35 years old- not a new phenomenon.
He has noted a dramatic shift in ethnic folks downtown - something that unfortunately drives others away - groups of tough looking types hanging out all over - rarely seen until the last few years.
And yes France is not a museum and things change -but the change was years ago - as Orleans like many French cities IME is near totally deserted after 7pm and on Sundays- except for some restaurant streets.
Feb 28th, 2017, 02:01 PM
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<i> Interestingly enough, Paris is perhaps the city that has retained the greatest percentage of "traditional" ways.
</i>
This is interesting, because the same is true in Rome and in New York City. Maybe because these are such big cities that the highways along which big commercial centers with large parking lots could be built are too far away from the center? However, I see some cultural conservatism in other ways in these two cities.
</i>
This is interesting, because the same is true in Rome and in New York City. Maybe because these are such big cities that the highways along which big commercial centers with large parking lots could be built are too far away from the center? However, I see some cultural conservatism in other ways in these two cities.
Feb 28th, 2017, 02:36 PM
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We visited Albi in late June of 2015 on a overnight trip from Carcassonne, where we were staying for 2 weeks. We had visited Albi twice before on day trips from elsewhere maybe 10 years or more earlier. We noticed immediately that the old center of Albi had been "spruced up" quite a bit. Streets were newly re-surfaced, buildings were recently restored, store fronts looked "upscale", there was a new Les Halles market, and the town seemed quite inviting.
We checked into our hotel and there were notifications everywhere at the hotel which stated that the only Michelin 1 star restaurant had closed and the chef was now cooking at a Relais & Chateau type hotel just outside of town. We had reservations for dinner at this restaurant. We quickly searched for a replacement restaurant - and didn't find any that had the ambience & menu we were looking for. So we settled on a somewhat touristy restaurant in the main square in town and reserved for a later dinner.
We then did the touristy stuff (Toulouse Lautrec, cathedral, etc) and noticed that there really were not many people in town. We had dinner, and after dinner we strolled through the old section of town & it was deserted - which is unusual for a nice French city on a beautiful June night.
Next morning we visited the newly constructed Les Halles market in town to reserve a poulet roti for dinner at our gite that night. There were many vendors at the market - but only about 5 customers. This was about 9:30 am. The "chicken guy" told us to return at 11:00 to pick up our poulet roti. We returned at 11:00 and there were still only about 5 customers in the market.
On our way back to our gite, we both wondered why there were not many "locals" going & coming to shops, restaurants, cafes, etc in the old section of this beautiful city.
So - it seems Albi has now been "Wallmarted" like many US cities. There was a Netflix video we watched about 15 years ago called "Is Walmart good for America?". The video documented the same thing - Walmart convinces the city mayor & counsel that Walmart is a good thing, they approve, Walmart builds, inner city dries up, people complain that the character of the town isn't the same - but food & clothes are cheaper & quicker to purchse & they can spend more time at home watching 500 channels on the TV. Ten years later, Walmart builds a "super" store in the next town, closes the older Walmart, and now the Mayor & Counsel & residents have to drive 45 mins farther to get discount food & clothes because there is no place in town that has them.
Today - the tables are turned on Walmart. Retail is drying up & Walmart is in big trouble.
Stu Dudley
We checked into our hotel and there were notifications everywhere at the hotel which stated that the only Michelin 1 star restaurant had closed and the chef was now cooking at a Relais & Chateau type hotel just outside of town. We had reservations for dinner at this restaurant. We quickly searched for a replacement restaurant - and didn't find any that had the ambience & menu we were looking for. So we settled on a somewhat touristy restaurant in the main square in town and reserved for a later dinner.
We then did the touristy stuff (Toulouse Lautrec, cathedral, etc) and noticed that there really were not many people in town. We had dinner, and after dinner we strolled through the old section of town & it was deserted - which is unusual for a nice French city on a beautiful June night.
Next morning we visited the newly constructed Les Halles market in town to reserve a poulet roti for dinner at our gite that night. There were many vendors at the market - but only about 5 customers. This was about 9:30 am. The "chicken guy" told us to return at 11:00 to pick up our poulet roti. We returned at 11:00 and there were still only about 5 customers in the market.
On our way back to our gite, we both wondered why there were not many "locals" going & coming to shops, restaurants, cafes, etc in the old section of this beautiful city.
So - it seems Albi has now been "Wallmarted" like many US cities. There was a Netflix video we watched about 15 years ago called "Is Walmart good for America?". The video documented the same thing - Walmart convinces the city mayor & counsel that Walmart is a good thing, they approve, Walmart builds, inner city dries up, people complain that the character of the town isn't the same - but food & clothes are cheaper & quicker to purchse & they can spend more time at home watching 500 channels on the TV. Ten years later, Walmart builds a "super" store in the next town, closes the older Walmart, and now the Mayor & Counsel & residents have to drive 45 mins farther to get discount food & clothes because there is no place in town that has them.
Today - the tables are turned on Walmart. Retail is drying up & Walmart is in big trouble.
Stu Dudley
Feb 28th, 2017, 03:12 PM
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residents have to drive 45 mins farther to get discount food & clothes because there is no place in town that has them.>
driving to stores in town -like hypermarches - is tough -so the developments a short drive away in Orleans are much more consumer-oriented than shops in the congested downtown.
It's a natural development - lament it all you want. I think over half of Parisians don't have a car -they have to shop in town.
driving to stores in town -like hypermarches - is tough -so the developments a short drive away in Orleans are much more consumer-oriented than shops in the congested downtown.
It's a natural development - lament it all you want. I think over half of Parisians don't have a car -they have to shop in town.
Feb 28th, 2017, 08:38 PM
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Ah yes, Europe is modernizing. This is happening also in Germany, but I see shopping malls being build in town, not just on the outskirts of town.
When I first moved to Germany in 2008, I imagined I would enjoy picking up my groceries in different stores -- the butcher shop, the dairy, etc. Of course, that didn't even last one year. I shopped, like all people, at the most convenient place. I didn't want to have to make 5 stops just to get stuff to eat; I ended up shopping at the largest grocery store that had everything that I would need for the week.
In München, there are shopping malls in the center of town, and the basements of the big department stores in the center of town also have a wonderful selection of food and exotic food items. Here in Garmisch, the largest shopping "mall" is in the center of town, with a large grocery store, a media store, a large drug store, and a few clothing shops. It's a hopping place. The small shops and boutiques along the nearby pedestrian street are still thriving.
s
When I first moved to Germany in 2008, I imagined I would enjoy picking up my groceries in different stores -- the butcher shop, the dairy, etc. Of course, that didn't even last one year. I shopped, like all people, at the most convenient place. I didn't want to have to make 5 stops just to get stuff to eat; I ended up shopping at the largest grocery store that had everything that I would need for the week.
In München, there are shopping malls in the center of town, and the basements of the big department stores in the center of town also have a wonderful selection of food and exotic food items. Here in Garmisch, the largest shopping "mall" is in the center of town, with a large grocery store, a media store, a large drug store, and a few clothing shops. It's a hopping place. The small shops and boutiques along the nearby pedestrian street are still thriving.
s
Feb 28th, 2017, 09:01 PM
#8
<i>Maybe because these are such big cities that the highways along which big commercial centers with large parking lots could be built are too far away from the center?</i>
More than 50% of Parisians travel on foot to go where they want to go. Only 11% use an automobile. And only about 40% of Parisians even own a car (compared to 81% in France in general).
More than 50% of Parisians travel on foot to go where they want to go. Only 11% use an automobile. And only about 40% of Parisians even own a car (compared to 81% in France in general).
Feb 28th, 2017, 09:02 PM
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Happening worldwide. Small shops and boutiques are very hard to find. Also the smaller shops cannot compete with the prices. Even the fresh food markets are struggling where I live because the produce is a lot more expensive than the big supermarkets. I'm not sure why if something is grown organically it should be double the price. Last week I looked at buying 2 white peaches(in season here) and organically grown ( means straight from the tree and no sprays used) and it was going to cost $7. Ridiculous price. I did ask if the owner had certification to prove the produce was organic and he replied 'lady give me a break'
The price at the supermarket was $1.90 for two peaches about the same size and were delicious.
The price at the supermarket was $1.90 for two peaches about the same size and were delicious.
Mar 1st, 2017, 12:46 AM
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Do not be too nostalgic. In 200 years or so, the Wallmart stores will become historic monuments, there'll be tons of tourists taking selfie in front of them. Many towns will be deserted because the colonies have moved to Mars and its fancy galactic shopping center.
Mar 1st, 2017, 01:10 AM
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<i> And only about 40% of Parisians even own a car (compared to 81% in France in general).
</i>
That's about the same as the % of New Yorkers who own a car. In Manhattan fewer than 30% own a car, and even in the outer boroughs, it's less than 50%. Maybe the % on Staten Island, which even has some rural areas, gets over 50%.
</i>
That's about the same as the % of New Yorkers who own a car. In Manhattan fewer than 30% own a car, and even in the outer boroughs, it's less than 50%. Maybe the % on Staten Island, which even has some rural areas, gets over 50%.
Mar 1st, 2017, 02:07 AM
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It is happening everywhere to some extent. Many British town centres and village shops have been decimated by the out of town superstores.
Add to that the general trend to move to bigger cities because that is where the work is and places will end up empty as they become at best dormitory towns, and at worst homes for the old and those unable to find work.
I admit my town has bucked the trend somewhat. I think that is because the town has several shopping areas, each with a greengrocer, a butcher a couple of bakers as well as a medium sized supermarket. People like to walk or cycle to the shops every day or so rather than do a mega shop once a week.
The Dutch haven't really gone in for hypermarkets or superstores selling everything from a tin of beans to clothes to new tyres for your car.
Never the less a lot of the villages have lost their shops.
The big shopping centres have plenty of empty shops too - victims of the internet - so empty V&D department stores, and lots of empty clothing and electrical goods stores too.
Add to that the general trend to move to bigger cities because that is where the work is and places will end up empty as they become at best dormitory towns, and at worst homes for the old and those unable to find work.
I admit my town has bucked the trend somewhat. I think that is because the town has several shopping areas, each with a greengrocer, a butcher a couple of bakers as well as a medium sized supermarket. People like to walk or cycle to the shops every day or so rather than do a mega shop once a week.
The Dutch haven't really gone in for hypermarkets or superstores selling everything from a tin of beans to clothes to new tyres for your car.
Never the less a lot of the villages have lost their shops.
The big shopping centres have plenty of empty shops too - victims of the internet - so empty V&D department stores, and lots of empty clothing and electrical goods stores too.
Mar 1st, 2017, 04:10 AM
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The issue absolutely isn't Walmartisation.
For the last third of the 20th century, France dealt with consumer demand from its economic growth in a distinctive way: large superstores couldn't be built in cities without specific permits - which were almost always denied.
Instead, it built hideous centres commerciales just outside city limits, usually around autoroute intersections. France being huge, these attracted little opposition, and a shopping equilibrium established itself in which the town-edge hypermarket catered for big (often monthly) shopping, leaving a significant amount of daily demand catered for by shops closer to the centre.
Then the German discounters arrived, and with them shrunk-down versions of Carrefour etc which provided more convenient parking and wider ranges than the town-centre independents - but only a hundred metres or so from the historic market square (French local councils appear to have extrordinarily low aesthetic standards). So these mini-hypermarkets basically killed traditional local food shopping, and with it a great deal of other small retail.
The problem most of the lamentations above ignore, though, is that the decision to stop shopping at the independents was made by customers. The fresh and traiteur food section of Carrefour's CarrefourMarket format (and its clones in other chains) usually offers far wider ranges of cheese, fruit&veg, game and ready-to-eat food than the independents did, as well as being substantially cheaper. Its children's clothing section is cheaper and more street-smart than the Modom shops French children were expected to put up with. And wherever H&M, Zara and the like locate, most French town centres just haven't got shops able to display their ranges properly - and they're far more in touch with what today's clothes buyer wants than the dying draper.
Then, of course, internet shopping commands a higher share of retail in France, Germany and the UK than in the US. The shortage of vocations means the church opens only for an hour every couple of weeks (unless it's town with a large enough Northern European expat community to have a weekly Protestant service). France seems unable to import Eastern European or African priests - presumably because they don't speak French.
The cinema can't compete with the films on satellite TV. So the bars die.
Certainly most of my experience of small town France at the beginning of this century was being in a fusty museum of 1950s retailing: France had too many shops. And the economy hasn't grown anything like fast enough to cope with the speed alternatives to town centres have developed.
For the last third of the 20th century, France dealt with consumer demand from its economic growth in a distinctive way: large superstores couldn't be built in cities without specific permits - which were almost always denied.
Instead, it built hideous centres commerciales just outside city limits, usually around autoroute intersections. France being huge, these attracted little opposition, and a shopping equilibrium established itself in which the town-edge hypermarket catered for big (often monthly) shopping, leaving a significant amount of daily demand catered for by shops closer to the centre.
Then the German discounters arrived, and with them shrunk-down versions of Carrefour etc which provided more convenient parking and wider ranges than the town-centre independents - but only a hundred metres or so from the historic market square (French local councils appear to have extrordinarily low aesthetic standards). So these mini-hypermarkets basically killed traditional local food shopping, and with it a great deal of other small retail.
The problem most of the lamentations above ignore, though, is that the decision to stop shopping at the independents was made by customers. The fresh and traiteur food section of Carrefour's CarrefourMarket format (and its clones in other chains) usually offers far wider ranges of cheese, fruit&veg, game and ready-to-eat food than the independents did, as well as being substantially cheaper. Its children's clothing section is cheaper and more street-smart than the Modom shops French children were expected to put up with. And wherever H&M, Zara and the like locate, most French town centres just haven't got shops able to display their ranges properly - and they're far more in touch with what today's clothes buyer wants than the dying draper.
Then, of course, internet shopping commands a higher share of retail in France, Germany and the UK than in the US. The shortage of vocations means the church opens only for an hour every couple of weeks (unless it's town with a large enough Northern European expat community to have a weekly Protestant service). France seems unable to import Eastern European or African priests - presumably because they don't speak French.
The cinema can't compete with the films on satellite TV. So the bars die.
Certainly most of my experience of small town France at the beginning of this century was being in a fusty museum of 1950s retailing: France had too many shops. And the economy hasn't grown anything like fast enough to cope with the speed alternatives to town centres have developed.
Mar 1st, 2017, 04:48 AM
#15
These things do have a bit of a pendulum swing, however, and right now there is a big movement for short supply chains, particularly in the food department but not only. In my own neighborhood, two grocers and a restaurant have opened selling only locally produced items with a minimal carbon footprint. They are not selling tomatoes, because it is not the season.
I still remember how nice it was in the old days to have to wait for certain things to be in season. The world makes no sense to me when I buy limes for 2.20€ a kilo imported from Mexico. How can anybody make a profit out of that?
I still remember how nice it was in the old days to have to wait for certain things to be in season. The world makes no sense to me when I buy limes for 2.20€ a kilo imported from Mexico. How can anybody make a profit out of that?
Mar 1st, 2017, 05:42 AM
#16
The article annoyed me, not because of its subject, which is important and timely, but because of its first person voice. What the devil do I care when he first moved to Paris or visited the provinces? I find news articles increasingly tending towards the personal. Recast it as straight reporting and you'll also shave off a third of its length -- always a good thing.
Mar 1st, 2017, 08:28 AM
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More than 50% of Parisians travel on foot to go where they want to go. Only 11% use an automobile. And only about 40% of Parisians even own a car (compared to 81% in France in general).
Exactly.
You save on the car, you pay more to buy close to your apartment.
You have a car, in smaller cities or in towns, you drive some kms, buy your stuff all at once in a supermarket.
In towns you find the other shops : restaurants, galeries d'art, libraries, clothes, these kind of things you don't like to buy in 2 seconds.
The New Yorker could also run a story on the decrease of small bars (cafés).
L'assomoir a vécu. What would Balzac write about now ?
Exactly.
You save on the car, you pay more to buy close to your apartment.
You have a car, in smaller cities or in towns, you drive some kms, buy your stuff all at once in a supermarket.
In towns you find the other shops : restaurants, galeries d'art, libraries, clothes, these kind of things you don't like to buy in 2 seconds.
The New Yorker could also run a story on the decrease of small bars (cafés).
L'assomoir a vécu. What would Balzac write about now ?
Mar 1st, 2017, 09:47 AM
#19
Sorry, page locked up. I love buying local and do as much as possible but my money only goes so far. I love a great town with bars, bakery, bookshops and local places to eat. We are seeing a huge amount of stores closing. Rent is astronomical on many downtown property and almost impossible to make a decent profit.
Mar 1st, 2017, 10:05 AM
#20
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Fra, it's not a news article, it's filed under "Albi Journal", which means it is meant to be an essay. It's hard for me to respect criticism from one who reads so carelessly.
<Yes, the American media would like France to be a quaint Disneylandish experience that never changes so they can have the Kodak moments in the provinces.>
Stupidly xenophobic and anti-American, as usual. The article clearly laments the fact that provincial cities may well become for tourists only. Is poor reading comprehension a sign of creeping senility?
It is interesting that large cities have escaped the trend, for many reasons cited above.
I thought flanneruk's post was spot on.
<Yes, the American media would like France to be a quaint Disneylandish experience that never changes so they can have the Kodak moments in the provinces.>
Stupidly xenophobic and anti-American, as usual. The article clearly laments the fact that provincial cities may well become for tourists only. Is poor reading comprehension a sign of creeping senility?
It is interesting that large cities have escaped the trend, for many reasons cited above.
I thought flanneruk's post was spot on.
