Former frequent poster from the US has temporarily given up on Europe because of the costs. Any more like me?

I've given up a long time ago, seems a pint of milk gets more expensive every week. (A liter now is 65ct) But what can you do?

Go east and south. Try the Baltics to Turkey.

BTW, it's not the € that is high, it's the USD that is low. In comparison with most other major currencies, the € is going down just like the USD.

Turkey is expensive too, their currency gained over 12% vs. the € during the last year. Poland and Slovakia are still cheap, but to cold in winter!

Exchange rates don't bother me much one way or the other.

I lived in the UK when the £ was $1.45 and when it was $2.45 so the current $2.04 really is just in the middle.

Sure I loved it when the € was just $.86 - but the current $1.40-ish is still doable.

There are lots of ways to economize on a trip. Plus all my investments are heading up while the $ is down so there is more cushion.

I did not think I would go back to Europe for a while, but DH & I are going to Paris in Feb.

Our ski club is going to Chamonix to ski. The trip has a 4 day Paris extension. We don't want to go to Chamonix. But DH has never been to Paris before. I was able to find a good price for air fare & hotel. So we are going to go & meet up with the ski club.

Right. The Euro is soo high against the US$ right now. Why not just sidle up to Canada for a cheap getaway.
I suggest a couple of bargains like Banff and Tofino.
Snicker, snicker.

Hi Julies - I have always enjoyed your posts and trip reports. I loved the one about Lithuania - I remembered it when I saw your post.

I am sort of carrying on as usual - still obsessed with trips and planning and the like. The only difference is that I am more "worried" about the price and am looking more diligently for less expensive accomodations.

We are planning a trip to Portugal next June and there are less expensive accomdations in some of the areas - compared to other countries.

I am one of those people that will forego other things (big house, two cares etc) as travel is the priority. My husband and are are 49 and 50 - and i am worried if I wait, health problems will start to be a barrier. Already not the same as I used to be.

We also have a 13 yo son (my stepson) and its very important to me to get him exposed to travel and all that it brings.

We have a 2 BR condo in Chicago - I am toying with the idea of downsizing to a one bedroom in preparation for retirement some day. Seems like people spend so much time accumulating stuff and filling up there houses - and then they turn around and unload all of it at some point. I am trying to get a leg up on that too.

Long answer to your question. Bottom line is... Europe is still calling me...

Yes, we've given up for now. But that's OK, because there are a lot of other places to visit in the world where the dollar has not been so severely battered.

Go to Argentina. Buenos Aires is a very European-like city. Dirt cheap for food, taxi, and shopping.

I guess I should throw in here that we have never been luxury travelers. Rather, we are more budget to moderate, so I already know about going to the grocery store, picnicing, staying at small mom and pop places, renting apartments, choosing less expensive destinations etc. Plus, we are not ones for luxury cars, ostentatiousness in clothing or jewelry, fancy restaurants at home, so while we are certainly more than comfortable, our money is not going there.

And, we have visited many of those less expensive places (many when they were way cheaper than they are now)--Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Poland, Lithuania. In May 2007, we visited Turkey and really liked it. In fact, we hope to return. But, it is on a par with costs in the US, so it is not what is considered a "cheap" destination. Plus, on the idea of Turkey. Go there while you are still in pretty good shape. The best places to visit all involve quite a bit of physical exertion. We too are thinking like Chicagolori in that we are thinking about when we will no longer have the stamina or physical ability that some destinations take.

All in all, Europe calls in some way, but when I start doing the math, it doesn't make sense.

I don't know if I agree. I'm from Canada. and the latest echange rate is $1.50 for one euro.

Over the years, flight prices have gone down due to more competition. I can fly a discount airline from home for under $900, or I can drive to Buffalo if a better deal is available there. I know that I did not pay any less 10 years ago than I'm paying now.

For hotels, with the advent of Travelocity and Expedia, I can get decent pricing on hotels and/or hotel packages. I've also used for France the SNCF travel site to find a hotel in the south of France.

For food in France, I was used to having a basic breakfast for under 10 euro, a lunch for under 10 euro, and then dinner could be in the 25 euro range (though I usually went higher).

If you go off season, pricing can get much better with hotel deals.

I went to Africa 2 years ago and spent way under $1000 for 2 weeks (excluding flight). I was in Turkey last month and daily cost were under easily under $100 per day (outside of istanbul)

Exchange rate is a number. Is Europe 1.5 times more expensive than home? No. Is Canada, at an exchange rate of 1-1 the same cost as in the US. No.

I'd set a budget and then plan a trip to match it. The flights have not, from what I can tell, dramatically increased over the last...5 years. So that costs you can control are hotels (appartments?) and meals. What can you do to control them, where can you go to find them within that budget. Europe will have somewhere...

No way.

I am at the moment making plans to spend time with a group of friends at a US destination.

This destination is not a major city, a resort, or expensive activity (like skiing or guided activity) and yet the trip is costing me nearly as much, item for item, as another trip I was planning on taking to Europe until I got this invitation.
In fact, the difference between this beers-by-the-motel-pool weekend and a European capital cities trip is about 20-25 percent. That includes the difference in the type of activities, meals and accommodation.

I love my friends, and it's worth it to me to see them. (There is no possibility they can all go to the European destination.)

But the trip itself? No comparison.

To stop traveling somewhere you really want to go, and spend thousands to go somewhere you don't, because of the difference in a few hundred dollars in the exchange rate seems a very foolish economy to me.

But we all have our tipping points, and I respect yours. I hope you find some new places you're just as passionate about!

Hi J,

In Sept 2006 1E = $1.26. Today it is $1.42, a 13% increase.

Thus, a 3600E, 2-week visit (not including airfare) that cost $4600 in 2006 now costs $5200.

That requires saving an extra $50/month for one year.

OTOH, the Dow is up 25%, and the S&P is up 18%.

My favorite places for vacation in the US are New York City, San Francisco and Los Angeles, as well as a number of others. This year we went to Europe for 6 weeks. We spent less there per day than we do on nearly every trip we take in the US -- certainly a lot less than in New York.

I stopped looking at "how many of theirs you get for one of our ours" and instead looking for the overall cost and value, and found that the value is still there. I don't care how much a great meal in Paris costs in euros, but rather how much it costs in dollars compared to a similar meal back home. The answer was that I can't match it in value in the US. Period.

A few years ago you could stay in a Hampton Inn on the outskirts of most American cities for $49 or so. Now, you're lucky when they are under $100. The decrease in the dollar compared to the euro doesn't begin to match that kind of increase in costs of things within the US.

Meanwhile we rented a wonderful apartment in Paris for about $100 a day for 10 days (note that's dollars, not euros). I wouldn't enter the door of a rental apartment or hotel I could find for that in New York, LA, or San Francisco, much less close my eyes and sleep in it.

I don't think Europe is any more expensive than a lot of other destinations, such as in the US or Canada, even now -- once there. The only thing that is really more expensive, and always has been, are drinks -- like a coffee in a cafe (please don't start giving me these tips about drinking coffee standing up, I know all that and don't want to drink coffee standing up). However, I do agree that nowadays the airfare has gotten so high for summer travel, when I go, that the airfare adds on a real chunk in comparison to staying closer to home. But that's the big difference. If you go more off-season, it isn't that much of an issue in comparison to other places. If you really go to cheap countries (maybe you are just tired of them and don't want to see, say, Bulgaria, that's fine) it isn't more expensive than the US or other places, I don't think.

I never thought Canada was any bargain despite the conventional wisdom, even before the current exchange rate making a CAD about equal to a USD. I thought it was about the same price as the US before, so now it is more expensive. I'm not really that interested in going there so much, anyway, at least not repeatedly and I've been there enough. There are plenty of places to travel where I haven't been in the US or Latin America, if I decided to forego Europe.

Christina what is most interesting about your post is that you mention the biggest increase is the cost of the airfares. But ironically most of us are paying those airfares to American airline companies in US dollars. Those increases have NOTHING to do with the euro/dollar exchange rate. (Yes, I'm agreeing with Christina here, just pointing out another aspect of her post).

In other words, once again, it is the actual COST of things in the US that goes up, often making things here MORE expensive that things in Europe where costs may have remained constant and even the falling rate of the dollar doesn't match the price increases of things back home.

I also agree with Christina's comments regarding Canada. Although we used to get more Canadian dollars for our US dollars, I never found that made things cheaper in Canada. My experience was nearly always that comparing "apples to apples" the bottom line price came out the same, as the same items cost more in Canadian dollars than the same item would in the states in US dollars. People get too hung up on exhange rates, rather than the bottom line cost.

And speaking of staying home. Look at how much more money you'd spend this summer on gasoline driving across the US compared to a couple of years ago. I bet the difference is more than the falling dollar rate would make for two weeks in Europe compared to that same couple of years ago!

We're going back to Italy in a couple of weeks. We're very aware of the exchange rate, but it played no role in deciding whether or not to go back to Europe. It is what it is. We always use miles for airfare, so that's a big expense we don't have to think about. We love Italy and wouldn't want to substitute it with a cheaper destination just for the sake of saving money.

Yes, with the dollar in apparent free-fall, Europe seems more and more unaffordable for Americans. We still want to go, so what we do is plan wa-a-ay ahead, prepay everything we can, and stay away from the "luxury" ietms as much as we can. I really think staying in apartments is the saving grace for us - so much less expensive to have coffee and breakfast in our own kitchen, and we can store fruit, cheese, bread, etc. instead of ordering in restaurants.

I am on the fence about this more than I have ever been. This latest trip cost pretty close to 100% more for hotels and meals than comparable trips during the pre-euro period (1999-2001 for example).

We'll be looking into a "big" trip for summer 2008 (family of six adults). My short list will include Sicily (plus maybe a little bit of mainland Italy?), Greece (primarily Crete?), and I will try to find a few alternatives - - Argentina sure seems appealing (but not such a good choice in June?), French or maritime Canada (probably NOT all that much cheaper than Europe?), or a dive destination.

I'll bet that our kids will still think that Greece deserves to be at the top of the list.

Best wishes,

Rex

Definitely not. Travel to Europe is life to me and so intrinsically intertwined that it would not even be an option. But then I do not think I am a normal traveler - I feel the need to be in Europe and think about it every single day. It goes way beyond being a tourist. My husband and I are going to retire to Europe.

Wow, Rex, that's amazing and totally different from my experience. Since 1998 we've been budgeting $300 to $325 per day in Europe for everything (for two), and pretty much staying within that budget. We've gone every year except for one in that time period.

This summer our averages were:
Paris: $306; Rome: $380; Venice: $362; Amsterdam $367. (Let's not look at London at $583 -- as much of that is four theatre tickets nearly every day).

What's more those figures all included really nice apartments rather than the 3 star type hotels we used to stay in. I don't think our meals have been any more penny pinching than they used to be -- in fact many of our meals were in the same restaurants we've been going to for years. I can't imagine how our costs would have doubled unless we REALLY upped our standard of hotel and restaurant.

I am a retired guy with a fixed income. I enjoy golf and my winter, solo trip to Great Britain. I love all of the planning and advice from this forum. So, yes I am going again, I will be a bit frugal, stay away from expensive cities and move about on pre-paid bus and rail passes, paid in $'s. If it cost $300 more this year, so be it. I am going to enjoy my retirement and not sit around waiting for the cost to fall--the clock is ticking you know!

Doesn't effect us much. I and now the "we" part of us both have always enjoyed travelling off season. We have a great place to stay at the Beach so that covers a glorious summer time. Anyway, we're going in November, we discovered we like apartments more for the space than the $$$ but the one we have in Rome in November is 130E's a night...and its beautiful...one can't get those kinds of amendities at a hotel...I don't need maid service, in fact, it annoys me. Seems to impinge on my time and my schedule.

Hopefully, we get back to France in 2008.

By the way, a trip to the grocery store costs a lot more than a couple of years ago. A trip to the gas station costs a whole lot more. A trip to the doctor or the hospital costs -- well, I don't want to think about it. A trip to the mall to do some shopping is a whole lot more expensive than a few years ago. A trip to the hairdresser? A trip to the dog groomer or vet? A trip to the local restaurant?

Why on earth wouldn't a trip to Europe cost more?

A couple things to think about:

By the time the Dollar goes back up, Fuel prices could cause airline prices to go way up.

It might be time to check out other parts of the world, Asia, South America.

But in the meantime, for those of you going to Europe, here are a few links that will help you keep your costs down.

www.bookhostels.com
www.hostelz.com
www.busabout.com
www.sleepinginairports.com

Having just returned last night from France I do feel that it is getting more expensive because of the bad exchange rate, will it stop me from going again, absolutely not.

The only thing that it stopped me from doing was shopping. It was the first time in many years that I actually did the math on a pair of shoes, 115E , very cute with that wonderful worn distressed look, but, when I figured it out to be about $165usd they weren't such a deal and they weren't 100% comfy, only 80% so I had to pass. Do I regret it, no, I still had a wonderful time in France.

It's really not the exchange rate or increase in prices in general that would keep us from Europe. We've been lucky to enjoy trips twice a year for several years now.

This year, it was just one trip. I want to re-do the house a bit with the leftover money.

Next year, it'll probably be only one trip again, but it will be for twice the length we normally go for - 16 days instead of 8. I'm finding I can't do short trips with long flights anymore. I just don't enjoy it.

If we were to cut back on anything for the next trip it would be the food expense. We don't go to Europe for the food (yes, sacriligious, I know!!). I still like a nice place to stay and we will fly business or better using miles and paying for upgrades. We like to walk and use public transportation, so we save there.

Probably the only thing I'd really cut back on would be shopping, if it meant going to Europe or not. I like to have a few nice memories but I don't have to bring back something for everyone anymore.

Now, Argentina really intrigues us. We're thinking that after we see Ireland next year, we might just head to South America for a change.

What's all this talk about Argentina? Is our Scarlett starting a B&B in Buenos Aires?

Not I. As a matter of fact, we are going for our longest trip ever to Europe in 2008. We just decided to stay in apartments for longer stays, and less expensive hotels for our shorter stays. I always find I can dine as reasonably anywhere in Europe as I can in Los Angeles.

With the dollar performing so poorly, you just have to think "outside the wallet."

DH (dope husband) and I are staying in the Americas...North and South. Won't be going back to the Euro anytime soon!

Buenos Aries...Paris of South America.

I've also heard very good things about Argentina and how cheap it is...

I think another issue compounding matters for US visitors to the UK is the silly prices that our hotels charge. Land prices have gone through the roof and many old hotels have been converted into apartments.

It is now cheaper for us to fly to Italy/Spain and use their reasonably priced hotels (of a similar rating) than it is to stay in the UK.

We found take away meals and restaurants to be considerably cheaper in Vancouver than in the UK. The lack of access alcohol way a shock to the system (literally)

Argentina may be cheap, but it costs more to get there than to Europe, and it takes longer than going to Europe also. I'd still like to go, but saving money is not the reason.

I did see a really cheap fare to Mexico City, and I'd like to go in a way - but I am just too intimidated.

For Canadians, of course, the exchange rate vis a vis the Euro is better now than it's been for a while. But time availability and airfare costs are much more pressing concerns than the exact exchange rate.

JULIES-- aren't you the one who posted about how you say you are Canadian when in Europe to avoid any anti-American sentiment?

Well Dear, seems appropriate you get acquainted with Canada. Would you like tips about Toronto?

We are still planning trips to Europe...but more time in apartments, fewer expensive dinners, visiting low or shoulder season and flying using frequent flyer miles. We're looking at Paris in November, Antibes in January and Croatia end of April.

Viajero2

You've got the wrong person. I've never said I was Canadian.

And, by the way I did enjoy Toronto when I visited it.

Light at the end of the tunnel for US travellers - Ryanair seem to be trying to secure transatlantic slots - they are legends in Europe for offering seats for 1 euro plus tax - they then charge a fortune for any add ons (such as food) but as long as you only breathe on their flights its very cheap.

If my kids were of different ages, I'd be ready to stop traveling to Europe for a while. But two of them are in high school, and there are so many places I want to show them before they leave home.

Missypie

where are you from?

Still going to Europe twice a year despite the low dollar. It just got in my blood to travel, and nothing will stop me. I can still purchase my Louis Vuitton handbags for less than in the states, plus I get back about 12% VAT. So it is not entirely too bad with our unfortunate dollar value. But I do hope it gets better before next May.

No, I'm not giving up Europe. I'm much older than 50 and also have begun to think about how many years I have left to be able to go wherever I want to. My niece accompanied me to Italy this year, and she climbed every tower, hill, and flight of steps she saw. I watched a lot.

I agree with Patrick about the cost of U.S. trips. We spent a small fortune this spring driving from KY to Utah and then into Colorado where we had free lodging for a family week and cooked most meals in. Not only the gas, but motels are much more expensive. Coming home, we made our last overnight stop in a small town in Kansas and randomly chose a place that was just awful--but not awfully cheap! I must say it was offset by our staying at the Strater Historic Hotel in Durango, which was super (but high).

Someone mentioned value in Banff, Canada. I'm surprised. It's a tourist destination and we found it hardly a bargain. Even Jasper was pricey. We found the food in restaurants (even a simple breakfast place) more expensive than I would have thought, and the quality of all the food we got was very mediocre. The scenery - well that was something else.

I'm not giving up either, infact, I'm moving there even with a crappy exchange rate.

kenav, icithecat was joking about the "bargains" of Banff and Tofino.

But like many places, if you feel it's important to see a certain place, Tofino has a hostel that is reasonably priced. A bigger problem is that you really need a car to see it properly, IMO. I can't say about Banff.

As has been pointed out before, if someone is OK with a 2000 Euro vacation at a 1.30 exchange rate ($2600 USD), this changes to a $2800 USD vacation at a 1.40 exchange rate. Maybe it's like a frog being boiled in ever-increasingly hot water, but I can't see foregoing the pleasure of a European vacation for $200, if you can afford to take the vacation in the first place.

GO, GO, Go, Now!

The years of age grow much faster the the exchange rates decline.

We traveled to many places around the world when Frommer's guide books said Spain, Ireland, Greece, Europe for $10 a day. England and Israel for $15 a day. Many other countries were more or less the same.

We made a lot of trips with charter groups that, included air, 10 or more hotel nights, transfers, a daily breakfast, a dinner or so plus some tours. The total price was $299 + 15% a person. Of course that was seventies.

We have also traveled a lot by buying airfare to our destination, renting a car and just "winging" it.

Now, more the 40 years later, we are retired and living on a "Fixed Income". Each year I withdraw my required amount from our IRAs, so the money is avaible but we have lost most of our youthful vigor.

At least we have our memories, pictures, and souvenirs, Jj

Definitely. Lately I've gone where my dollar is worth more and airfare is cheaper. Mostly South America (Peru, Ecuador, Galapagos Islands, and Aruba).

From everything I am seeing the only real "bargains" anymore are in eastern Europe and Asia. Worth looking at if money is a major concern.

Hi, julies,

I'm doing most of my travelling vicariously on this board, but mostly because our girls are college bound soon and having orthodontic work to boot.

I look at Paris apartments online as a substitute for gazing out their windows.

I'm carrying on as usual.

The exchange rate does sting, but it's still cheaper to travel to the great cities of Europe than of the US.

I just did a quick search (a longer, more serious search could turn up better deals, I know) and found that there's very little in the way of hotel rooms in NYC or Boston for less than $350. That's even looking at places like Choice Hotels, Hotels.com, etc. A week at that price is about $2500. Then I went to hotels that I've actually stayed in in Paris, London and Rome and the average price for a double room there (now, it was cheaper a few years ago when I was at those hotels) is €120 which at 1.42 is $170. A week at that rate is less than $1200 - or half the price of the NYC/Boston rooms. (And the Eruopean room rates include taxes which is not usually included in US room quotes).

So things would have to get a LOT worse to make it cheaper to travel to major US cities than major European ones.

Then there's the cost of flying. A quick search on Kayak.com for March (the next time I'm likely to travel) showed prices from NY/Boston to Rome at about $600, prices from NY/Boston to LA were about $400. Definitly not enough of a savings to make it "worthwhile" to vacation here in the US. I think the summer fares to Europe will be worse (in comparison to summer fares within the US) but still.

Yeah, it hurts, but I'm still going. It doesn't even make sense not to. EVERYTHING costs too damn much everywhere.

Nothing's really changed for me. I feel the pinch, but not enough to give up on Europe.

I have to agree with Isabel that it can be less expensive to travel to Europe than to some major cities in the US. My mother and I stayed for three nights in a budget hotel in Boston for a bit more than it's going to cost me for my 5 nights in Copenhagen this November.

I will, however, think twice about any major purchases!

Well, I haven't been to Europe in 25 years and I am going next June! I am so excited. I know the cost will be huge, but I can finally afford to go and my kids are at great ages to travel and soak up the culture (teens)! So, even though it will be costly, I am excited about going. Now, if only the dollar could gain a little strength over the next six mos.....

Maybe in addition to learning some new definitions here today ("random" et al), we should add some more lessons from the post-modernists:when it comes to the travel/cost ratio, it is all relative.

Personally, I have nover made a destination decision based on whether it was a "bargain". The Canadian $ will permit our family a little more leeway in deciding THIS year, but maybe next it will go the other way and we will delay our trip to _____ for another 6 months while we save our loonies.

BTW, at one point in this thread there was a discussion of whether "Canada" was still a deal. I take exception to this characterization of an entire country (one that is actually larger than the USA) as a "deal" or "mot a deal".

The variations from region to region are just as great as that within the US. You wouldn't expect to pay the same for a steak or hotel room in Manhattan as you would in Watertown, NY, would you? What about Panama City, Florida versus Portland, Oregon? Well, trust a Canuck, the differences between Corner Brook,NL (Newfoundland/Labrador) and Vancouver, BC are just as vast.

For all you folks who can't afford Europe any more, you're just not looking far enough South ... i.e., to Greece. I'm a peppy retiree but my bank account is far from peppy... yet Greece is do-able, and the history, culture, weather etc are all splendid.

I sometimes feel like an alien in a strange land when I read about people exulting over a 'bargain' 100E room in Paris or Italy (both of which I've traveled to several times thankyou). In late May/early June in Greek islands, aside from Greedy Santorini/Mykonos, I always get beach-side rooms with pvt bath, a/c, fridge, balcony etc for 30-40 Euros per double, often including breakfast. Lunches (picnic-style) are always under 5E, and enjoyable harborside dinners at friendly family tavernas are typically 9-12 Euros for authentic slow-baked Greek meals including a glass of red (and you have to fight off the free raki at the end).

Yes I love gourmet French food, and the Lake District, and Tuscany. But the thrilling ancient ruins, the sublime golden CLEAN beaches, the splendid June sunsets of Greece at 55-60 Euros per day (Including EVERYTHING)... there's the answer to the tanking dollar.

Please when you say you can't afford Europe, be more precise and say you cant afford upscale trips in France, Italy, Grmany and UK ... I certainly cannot, but thankfully, there's Greece.

LJ, I think you're being overly sensitive about the Canada being a deal comment. It is in the spirit of this entire thread. Clearly the basis of the original post is just as vague -- talking about giving up ALL of Europe due to the currency exchange. And the Canada reference was in regards to the same thing -- a "deal" only in the sense of the currency exchange. I don't think anyone is going to argue with that last paragraph of yours that various places have high and low prices and "deals" and "no deals". Of course we all know that. But that isn't what the comment referred to at all.

travelerjan, your post agrees with what many others are saying -- it all depends on how you travel. Ironically we visited Greece for a month a couple of years ago. We loved it, of course, but frankly our daily cost was considerably higher than our daily costs in Italy. I'm not sure why that was -- I don't think we stayed in "better" hotels or ate in more "upscale" restaurants, but yet somehow we spent more money. I think it goes to show you can travel cheaply or expensive anywhere you go -- but some people know better bargains in some countries than in others. We invariably spend the least money the week or more we are in Paris -- but many others find that their most expensive place (if they aren't doing London).

Markrosy: Dallas.

Time is exponentially more valuable to me than money. At age 44, I am in the peak of my traveling years right now. It would cost my soul entirely too much to save a few bucks now because of an unfavorable exchange rate. I can't afford to be thrifty.

Your mileage may vary.

>Time is exponentially more valuable to me than money. At age 44, .....

ROFL!

Wait another 20 years, Mr Go.

"I can't afford to be thrifty".

That's brilliant. It's amazing how many people have spent way too much (in money as well as time or energy) by trying to be thrifty.

Dear julies,

I know the feeling. But we're at an age where we can't *NOT* go - every time we can get the money together.
We are both retired educators on a fixed pension. We haven't had a cost-of-living increase in 12 years. (!!!) We still are going to Europe. SOMEwhere in Europe.

We never could afford 4 or 5 star lodging unless it was in off-season and even then ended up in 3 stars.

So now we are STILL going, but to a different place - where we always wanted to go anyway, not a sacrifice. We're going to Central/Eastern Europe in the fall 08 for 3 to 4 weeks. The airfare is approx what we have averaged over the last 7 years. We're starting in Prague and returning from Istanbul.

Our lodging will average $100 a night - including breakfast and taxes. Although prices are rising in this part of Europe, on the average they are still lower than Western Europe. Of course there are the $300/$400 night hotels, but we never stay in those anyway.

We're staying in Guesthouses and small 2 * hotels and saving a splurge for some great local restaurants.

When I write *my* travel book (we all have one in us of course) it will be titled, "Yes, YOU CAN!" and it will be encouraging everyone to travel as widely and often as possible. We have always traveled - we have always had a lower income than most. Has that bothered us? Not one whit, jot or iota.

Don't be discouraged; Think out of the box - about new destinations - new ways to stay.

GO WHILE YOU CAN!!!

The USD is going to crash soon anyway. Use your money as long as it's still worth something abroad.

We haven't given up. We're taking our first trip to Europe this month. We've also got trips planned to Central America, Asia, and hopefully back to Europe again soon. We're going to go while we're young. We're going to eat sandwiches, drink water, stay in 2 star hotels and B&B's, and have a great time, despite the dismal exchange rate. I figure there will come a time when we cannot travel, so we're going to make the most of it while we can.

I'm certainly glad to see so many posters here are not changing their plans to visit Europe come what may...........however, spare a thought for those of us who are of the same opinion even at a whopping exchange rate of R6.9136 to the Euro!
Now I wonder how many would grit their teeth and bare it if the US Dollar was that price to buy a euro??

We've been doing it at far worse rates and have never given up. Saved more, been frugal, but how could I ever say NO to Europe?

You lucky lucky people.

thanks for the laugh, tod. It's always good to point out that any two currencies are NOT the same, and trying to say that because it costs 10 of one to get one of the other, somehow means things cost 10 times as much is simply ridiculous. I always bring up the days of the Italian lira, when people traveling to the US from Italy had to pay 2000 times as much for anything as the locals did. Isn't that the same as saying it costs Americans 2 times as much as the locals in London?

Appreciated Neo - still, think what 1 of my currency buys here still needs 6 times the same currency to buy the exact same thing over in Europe.
I buy a croissant for 1 euro but in my home country I can buy six croissants for 1 euro. I think it makes a big difference. Maybe I'm not getting it but I seem to have to withdraw cash for an entire weeks food bill here in South Africa but I only get to eat 1 meal in Paris for the same money?

Still having a lot of StarAlliance frequent flier miles, is it safe to go to South Africa? "They" always say it's very dangerous?

tod, I think the crux of the matter (which you will likely not want to disclose personally) is what the average South African professional earns versus what the average American professional earns.

For example, someone earning 500,000 South African Rand per year is in basically the same earning position as someone earning $72,000 USD per year. But I don't know much about South African housing costs, etc. so even that does not tell the whole story.

If you can get six croissants to the Euro, are they as good as in Paris? In my home city, I can get some nasty frozen pastries that are very cheap and they are not worth eating, or I can splurge to get pastries that taste good.

Now you've lost me. You're saying that if you spent 40 euro on a meal in Paris (280R) that would normally be the same as your entire week's grocery bill at home -- 280R?

And you're saying that you buy 6 croissants for 6.9 R at home? I think I've just discovered the place to travel to!

I still remember the people at BMW in the cafeteria, talking about their stay, hotel and food in South Africa anything for just a few "Marks", but that was in 1997. Things must have changed by now???

A lot of people don't understand that the number of units doesn't make something more or less expensive, they just think the more the better (or more expensive). Anyway, 6.9 ZAR isn't one euro, it is one USD. One euro costs 9.8 ZAR.

But I'm lost on that also, like Patrick -- you can buy six croissants for the value of one euro in South Africa? SO, they'd cost only about 16 euro cents each. You could probably buy one that cheap in the US at a grocery store or cheap bakery, but they wouldn't be that good. Even here, I think they'd cost more than that.

Maybe South Africa is really cheap if you can buy a week's worth of groceries for the value of 40 euro or so, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the exchange rate, that's what Neopatrick (and I) am saying. It's the difference in cost of living. I can rent a hotel room in Toledo, Ohio for a lot cheaper than in New York City, but they are both in USD, for example. Just like within France, you can rent a cheaper hotel room in Toulouse than in Paris, but they both use euro.

I've never wanted to go to South Africa, although I would like to see Kenya and those wildlife preserves -- but I have a friend who went to SA and really enjoyed it.

tod - totally apples an oranges.

That is just like the American who thinks the € at $1.41 is a better exchange rate/cheaper than the £ at $2.04. Just not a valid comparison.

I was curious, so found this page discussing South African salaries:
http://tinyurl.com/2yk6hj

So, if this is accurate, the average software engineer earns the equivalent of about $26,000 USD. That would indicate South African salaries are not very high, but it's also quite possible that the price of groceries and housing are low enough that this is not a problem. But I can see that travel to Europe would be very costly.

>number of units doesn't make something more or less expensive
I doubt that there's anybody on this board that doesn't know 2nd grade math! People are just not THAT stupid. However, I prefer 6 croissants for the Euro.

Buenos dias and gracias, Argentina!

In 1988, we skied at Bariloche and then spent a week in Buenos Aires. The Bariloche shops bought the (used) ski clothes off our backs for more than we paid for them, and the 2-week trip ended up costing us only the air fare. It was the most amazing experience.

I loved Argentina and would go back any time, even if the inflation rate doesn't entirely pay for the trip. Buenos Aires feels like a melding of France, Italy and Spain, and Patagonia is gorgeous.

Just have to throw in that obviously this discussion wouldn't pass the sniff test if one were to look for a truly scientific polling. Those who are still frequenting this board, which I hadn't done for months, are those who are still thinking about and/or planning trips to Europe.

Let's use $100 as a base. The bottom line for me is that I still have a very difficult time justifying paying $142 for something that would have cost me $80 in early 2002 or even $126 in the summer of 2006.

I do understand what those of you are saying about travel within the US being expensive though. I'll be going with friends to the wime country in Calif. in a few weeks. Costs there definitely are not cheap.

Travelerjan--

Thanks for the tips on Greece. We haven't been there in 35 years. Your travel style sounds a lot like ours. Maybe it is a place to consider. I'll just have to ignore the horrendously high airfares to get there from the midwest.

"Let's use $100 as a base. The bottom line for me is that I still have a very difficult time justifying paying $142 for something that would have cost me $80 in early 2002 or even $126 in the summer of 2006."

Where do you live, julies? Those figures sound much like my everyday life here in the states. In fact I just paid $2700 for something that cost me $1200 just a year ago -- my homeowner's insurance.

I easily pay that much increase in gasoline. My utilities have skyrocketed. My DSL connection recently went from $19.95 a month to $39.95 a month. I could swear it's only been a couple of years ago that I paid $2.99 for a gallon of milk. Now it's over $5!

The point is -- practically everything is going up. As well documented here, the rate on New York hotel rooms has increased significantly more in the past three years than the dollar rate has raised the rates in Europe -- and many hotels there have not raised their prices! I was looking just the other day at a hotel in Paris where we stayed five years ago and their rates are still the same. So even with the change in the dollar, it has not gone up as much as many hotels in the US. So your whole theory really does fly out the window. If you stay home and travel you are JUST AS LIKELY to pay as much MORE for your travel compared to three years ago as you are if you go to Europe. And it's not just that things are expensive here (like in Napa) but that many prices have INCREASED at an even greater rate than the euro to the dollar! You just can't go around worrying about what something cost a year ago or cetainly not 5 years ago!

Meanwhile, I sure hope your income has increased also in the past 5 years, as well as the equity in your home and your investments. Mine sure have.

NeoPatrick - you're lucky that your income has gone up along with everything else. I work as a college professor, my children are college age - my oldest started college 5 years ago, my youngest will start next year. My income has gone up 18% in the last five years. The cost of attending college (public, in the same state in which I am employed) has gone up 50% in that same time period. How fair is THAT? But I'm still planning on going to Europe twice next year. As someone who works in healthcare, I see all too often people who wait - for something, like exchange rates to get better - and get sick or die before it ever happens. You have to strike a balance.

Yes, NeoPatrick, you truly are lucky if your income, investments and home equity have increased by 75% (the difference in an exchange rate of E = .80 vs. E = $1.42) in the past 5 years. And, if all of those things have increased 12% in the past year, you are even luckier (especially considering the downturn in the housing market). Our income certainly hasn't had increases like this.

We live in Minneapolis where we are lucky because houses in our neighborhood continue to hold and appreciate. However, as elsewhere many costs continue to creep upward, but certainly not anywhere near to the increase in the cost of a euro.

By the way, this doesn't mean we will stop traveling outside of the US; it just means we are looking further than just Europe. We went to Vietnam in January, and while it was an exhausting trip, it was stimulating. And, we certainly learned A LOT about how the great majority of people in the world live. Currently I have books on Asia and Central and South America from the library. We are thinking of exploring other horizons.

I hate to get too personal, but my home has not increased 75%. Since I bought it in 1995 it has increased in value roughly 750%. Welcome to Florida and smart real estate buying in the mid 90's. Yes, in the past year it has not increased, and in fact has probably decreased a bit. Still I won't complain about the 750% increase in 12 years.

I did mislead though. I did not mean to imply my income has increased. I retired early and basically I have very little income now. I withdraw from some very good investments for travel funds. I must scrimp a little more to travel than I did 5 years ago. But I must scrimp MORE if I'm going to New York or San Francisco, than if I'm going to go to Paris or Rome. Trust me on that.

I also think instead of looking at that 80 cents for a euro as being a base or a standard from which you look at what it is now, it should be looked at for what it was -- an incredibly wonderful temporary deal. Yes, things in Europe seemed "cheaper than dirt" then -- an amazing bargain. I don't mean to imply that travel in Europe is still the amazing bargain it was then -- but instead that with the fall of the dollar, it has evened out closer to what we would normally expect to pay for similar things at home.

I still say, show me a hotel in New York that goes for under $200 a night and let's compare it to what you can get for a hotel in Paris for $200 a night. Tell me how much a subway trip 20 blocks in New York costs compared to one clear across Paris on the Metro. Tell me how much most people pay for their morning cappuccino at Starbucks compared to what it might cost at a neighborhood cafe in Rome. What's the admission charge to enter the British Museum compared to the Metropolitan Museum in New York? What does a cruise on the Seine cost compared to a Circle Line one in New York?

Answers to some comments about our awful, just awful, exchange rate.First Logos999 - South Africa will knock your socks off with it's beauty but it is riddled with crime levels never before experienced. Not the poncy 'pick your pocket' crime you encounter in European cities like Paris, but knife or gun in your face when something needs to be nicked - like your cellphone, car, household items ,whatever.
Not everywhere all the time but far too much. Going with a tour group is very safe. On your own, you'll have to be streetwise and vigilant. Don't forget I live with it daily so naturally we take guns to work which is a b...dy terrible thing to have to do day in and day out! But don't be scared, come and see for yourself.

NeoPatrick & Christina: Sorry, I should have said I was using the 1 for 6 croissant thing just as an example! It could have been apples, lemons, anything but whatever the item it was value for value, not one good for six bad. Thanks Christina for the correction - 9 to 1 (is even worse).
And yes, I am saying that one can buy a weeks groceries for one good meal in Paris - say a 45euro meal. Thats the whole point. Our money is rubbish anywhere but HERE!

WillTravel: Average persons salary is not high EXCEPT if you work in high office for the government. Then you right your own cheque and when the newspapers get to hear about it theres a huge outcry.
Something like, (now please people don't shoot me) Robert Mugabe in Zim having all the shops with empty shelves but what does he care when he flies in his groceries from Harrods!(and not only one little shopping cart either).

Yes, it's all of the things posters have put forward but whatever the reason I would love our Rand to be as strong as your dollar, Euro, pound!

tod, thanks for clarifying a number of issues, but one point remains. The difference in costs between your country and another are not merely that your money is "rubbish" every where except there, or that it really has anything to do with the exchange rate.

One could go spend a week in a rural area of Appalachia in the US. He could rent a room for a couple dollars. He could eat really good home cooked food at a little restaurant for a couple dollars. Everything would cost a fraction of what it would cost in the "big city". So by your logic, it must be that "his money is rubbish when he leaves that area". No -- it's the same money that he'd use in New York. It's simply that he's in an area where there is a much cheaper cost of living. It's the same with your country, apparently.

While you are mentioning that your money "goes farther" in your home country, so will anyone else's currency in your country. It's really that everything is apparently priced very low -- not that it is only cheap with one particular currency. By the same token, things in any euro zone are going to cost a whole lot more for you. Sure, but then their euros are going to go a lot further in your country than they do at home too. Does that mean that their euros are "rubbish" at home because it will cost them 6 times more for the same thing at home than it does when they use them in your country?

Try flying international as a flight attendant each week and NOT getting international pay-I have had to cut down on my red wine over there as a result!!!!!

dutyfree, are you kidding me? I can't help but notice what wonderful wines you get by the glass for around 3 euros in nice restaurants in Rome or Paris. Most of our local restaurants charge $6 for even their almost undrinkable house wine, and an average of $10 to $14 for nicer wines. And a full bottle of really good red wine in nearly any but a four star restaurant in Rome or Paris can be easily had for 15 to 20 euros. That's $21 to $28. There's no bottle of wine on most of our local restaurants that I would want that is less than $40.

If there's anything that I still consider a fantastic bargain in Europe compared to home, it's wine in restaurants. But let's just not talk about a big glass of Scotch.

Today's Guardian newspaper has an interview with the new head of Waitrose, the upmarket U.K. grocers.

Mark Price reckons that UK retailers pay on average five times higher rent than Americans and have 30% higher labour costs. "The economics of food retail in America are very different from the economics of food retail in the UK."

This may help explain why prices in Britain seem high to Americans.

You can read the full article at http://tinyurl.com/2naxff.

Hey tod,

>I buy a croissant for 1 euro but in my home country I can buy six croissants for 1 euro.

Your lucky if your croissants are edible.

Hey, Julies,
> I still have a very difficult time justifying paying $142 for something that would have cost me $80 in early 2002 or even $126 in the summer of 2006.<

Not fair to compare prices in 2002, when the Euro was way, way down against the USD. Europe was a real bargain then.

For deacdes the FF was about 5/USD. If you use the FF/E conversion rate, it is now about 4.6/USD. That's only about 10% higher than it was 30 years ago.

Good point, NP.
The Hotel Bonaparte has gone from 110E in 2001 to 128E in 2008 - 16% in 7 years. This is about the same as the change in the US CPI for the same period.

>Most of our local restaurants charge $6 for even their almost undrinkable house wine, ...

Same prices here in rural GA.

It is still cheaper for me to go to Europe for 2 weeks (with airfare) than any major city in the US.

One item everyone keeps missing on the 45euro meal in Paris vs the whole week of groceries back home debate is that that you can spend 45euros for a restaurant meal at home, too. The real comparison whether you can get a week of groceries in Paris for 45Euros.

BTW, my cousin visited me with his girlfriend this past summer, and they were pleased at the prices when shopping for goods, but were shocked at the high cost of groceries. When we walked out of the Jewel (major chain grocery) after spending $60, they said back home in Slovenia, it would have only been $20.

Let's face it, travel cost more than staying at home...but we don't travel to save money or get a good deal or live like we do at home. We travel to experience things we can't at home. Last week I spent $75 to have lunch at the Ivy in LA, an experience I can't have at home, but it was delicious and I felt like a player. So, 45Euros for dinner in a Paris restaurant is an experience that can't be duplicated at home at any cost because you are not in Paris. It's like having a $300 meal at Charlie Trotter's in Chicago...it can't be duplicated.

Whether once in a lifetime or once a year, if European travel is your priority, you can find a way to afford it.

Hey nice try Ira! Forget the croissants - How about a whole beef fillet?
Here, expect to pay between 6 & 9 euros a kilo ( R45 - R80). Please work that out in dollars.

That would be between $3.80 and $ 5.60 a pound.

After a life-threatening illness earlier this year, I am with Mr. Go on this one. I took one "domestic" trip this year to see a specialist, will take one at the end of this week (and attend the Fodors GTG in Boston) and will take a third in December. In April of 2008 I am looking forward, God willing, to return to my beloved Rome with a couple of friends. I don't care if I have to walk on my hands and knees to beg for pop bottles for the return money, I AM GOING!

BC

As long as I can still drag myself on the plane, I'm going to Europe.

Hi tod,

Your 9E/k fillet is about $6/lb.

Our local supermarket offers it at about $13/lb - and it should be slow cooked and stewed.

A decent butcher around here (Madison, GA) would charge about $20/lb for good beef.

Your cost of living is remarkably low.

"and it should be slow cooked and stewed."

ira, you're talking about fillet of tenderloin of beef? Stewed? Please tell me you're joking!

NeoPatrick-on behalf of my fellow crewmembers....we want to know where these 3 euros a glass places are? Most wine bars start at 5 euros a glass and even our "beloved house wine liters" usually start at between 10-13 euros.We usually dine at the regular run of the mill places and most are about 6 euros a glass.
You drink scotch-my new best friend! But only in the cold of winter.......

Hi NP,

>ira, you're talking about fillet of tenderloin of beef? Stewed? Please tell me you're joking! <

You haven't bought beef from Ingles, have you?

Thank heavens no if you have to stew their tenderloin of beef? Don't you have a good old Piggly Wiggly in your part of Georgia?

>Don't you have a good old Piggly Wiggly in your part of Georgia?

We used to, but it closed about 12 years ago.

I figured Ira meant the beef was so tough at that price that it had to be stewed.

Out of curiosity, I checked the price of a croissant at my local (Wash DC) chain-store grocery bakery dept. today and they were $1 each. These are nothing that great, as they don't use high quality ingredients or butter. They'd probably be more at a good bakery. So, a 1 euro croissant in Paris is actually not a bad deal in comparison, as it's a lot better.

Quite interestingly today someone from Norway posted on another travel forum. They are going to New York for the first time in 3 years. He is shocked at the prices. Despite the Kroner increasing as much against the dollar as the euro has done, it nowhere near matches the price increase. He mentions last time getting a hotel for $150, but now is having trouble finding anything under $300. It's as some of us have said -- it really isn't all about the exchange rate. One would think that a European would be finding a trip to the US a great bargain, but although his money is buying more dollars, it's not enough of an increase to offset some of our rapidly increasing prices.

Having recently returned from a month in Madrid, Rome and Paris this past May I'd like to add that when I left the US the Euro was $1.26 or so and when I returned it was $1.33 or so - not counting the little add-ons the hotels and airlines add for exchange rate. But you all are missing something else I learned in a conversation with the Roman concierge. Things are expensive for the natives of these cities too. The reason is that when they changed from (for example) the Lire, if the bottle of wine was 10 lire, or the meal was 15 Lire; instead of figuring out how many Euro 10 or 15 Lire equaled, shopkeepers, hotels, groceries, restaurants just changed the price from 10 Lire to 10 Euro ! Big difference and big sticker shock....so it was at that point that everything became much more expensive in the parts of Western Europe switching to Euro.

Meanwhile, while you all are talking about the Euro being $1.42, that won't be the exchange rate you'll get - more likely closer to $1.50 .....nevertheless as many have previously said, I'm still going to Paris while I can enjoy the trip and before I start toddling along !

Hello mahya, yes my various Italian friends have told me the same thing these past years. One friend even told me that families that can no longer afford to go on vacation in August as they have in the past stay sort of "hidden" in their homes..they watch movies etc., and feel ashamed that they do not have the money for a vacation to the mountains or the seaside. A friend in Italy whom I spoke with last week told me it is now typical for people to put their groceries on a credit card and just pay the minimum amount due when they receive their credit card statement. People are not eating out in restaurants as they once did. This is not true of everyone of course but I have been told by so many friends in Italy that their and their friends financial situation has changed considerable these last years.

Traveling to Paris is a priority in my life. As long as I'm in good health, nothing will stop me.

As an aside I was planning on staying at the George V next trip for two nights (to celebrate my master's graduation) but I will have to postpone that now.

We will continue to go to Europe but only by swapping our house for one there. We like to stay at least a month and it's too expensive for us to rent an apartment anymore. So, whatever comes up in the house swap world, we're up for it.

"Meanwhile, while you all are talking about the Euro being $1.42, that won't be the exchange rate you'll get - more likely closer to $1.50."

Mahya, I don't know where you're getting your foreign currency, but you need to do a little research and make some changes.
If the rate is $1.42 then my ATM withdrawals cost me $1.434. If I use a Capital One credit card, purchases are costing me $1.42. Some other credit cards charge 1, 2, or even 3%. If you happen to have one of those 3 % ones, then you are paying 1.463 for your purcheases. If you are paying $ 1.50 for your euros, then you are doing something very wrong and you simply must not care about how much things cost.

Or did I simply misunderstand your post and were you simply saying that in the future it might be $1.50. If that's what you meant, then "of course" is the reply.

Ira, let me put you right about the beef fillet - and NeoPatrick too.
I am definitely reffering to the cut of beef used for:
Filet Mignon
Filet De Boeuf En Croute,
or even Fillet of beef with Bernaise sauce!

Stewing meat is something like chucksteak, beef shoulder etc. which is around R39 - R46ZAR.(and much lower if you buy from a butcher shop than a supermarket).

Yes, and I'm assuming that's the cut ira's talking about too. I can't believe he'd pay $13 to $20 a pound for STEWING beef no matter where he lives -- Piggly Wiggly or not!

In fact I just made a note to myself. "Despite how much you like ira, think twice before accepting an invite to his house for a filet mignon dinner."

"NeoPatrick-on behalf of my fellow crewmembers....we want to know where these 3 euros a glass places are? Most wine bars start at 5 euros a glass ..."
I am surprised that kerouac hasn't jumped all over this one!
Taverne Henri IV starts at E3-4 and that isn't even trying. Most cafes are in the E3 ballpark - stay away from Marais, Deux Maggots, St Germaine, etc.
Our local cafe in Carlux serves me a pastis or wine, for E2.
If you change your habits and locales (arrondisements), there are reasonable prices without much effort.

Now please be so kind and tell me, if you consider those € prices expensive.(all including 7% tax or 19% on alcoholic beverages) It's one of the "not so cheap" supermarket chains here.
Chicken breast 1kg 9.99€
Ramazotti 0.7l 8.99€
Erdinger Weißbeer 10liters 12.79€
German potatoes 10kg 1.99€
Onions 5kg 1.59€
Ananas Extra sweet 1.49€
Appenzeller Cheese 100g 1.49€
Beef filet 1kg 6.99€
Vienna Sausages 100g 79ct
yoghurt 500g 85ct


3 chars too many sh..

http://www.short-link.de/5802

Mondays offers

Groceries are on average not more expensive. Rent an apartment, buy groceries and enjoy Europe!

P.S. Logos: Why aren't you at the Oktoberfest? I've heard it's been a record year for beer drinking.

Records:
A waitress carried 18 glasses of beer.
6,7 million liters of beer sold.

It's the last day of Oktoberfest today, hooray . Finally! Strange, but it wasn't to bad this year. Maybe that's because I was away from Munich until last Saturday.

Julies, Here is a related article that I read in New Yorker while having my morning cup of tea: http://tinyurl.com/3ykjca

The bad news is, yes, we've stopped traveling to Europe for a while.

The good news is that we're traveling in Latin America for lower prices.

Comfyshoes--

Thanks for the link to the fascinating article. It even answered an unspoken question I had about how in the world people can still buy Swedish and German cars when one would think those prices would be going through the roof due to the weak dollar.

I share your pain. After almost 20 years of European vacations, we've turned to the U.S.: the SW in 2005, upper New England in 2006, and we're just back from Northern California. For years Europe was comparatively a bargain, but now it's nice to explore the U.S.

Hey ma,

>...restaurants just changed the price from 10 Lire to 10 Euro ! <

I'm afraid that someone was pulling your leg. Official conversion rates are at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro.

The lire converted at about 2000/E.

However, prices did rise abut 5% upon conversion.

Hi tod,

We agree about what filet of beef should be. My point is that the meat at my local supermarket, at a somewhat higher price than yours, is too tough to be just grilled.

For about the same price, we can get meat from, which contains about 15% of a tenderizing solution, but I don't want to poison myself.

Hey NP,

>I can't believe he'd pay $13 to $20 a pound for STEWING beef no matter where he lives ...

You are correct.

We live in the land of highly processed, high fat, high cholesterol, high salt, high starch, high sugar foods. It isn't easy to eat properly and well.

C'mon over one night for shrimp and grits. You bring the Sancerre.

Hi logos:

>Chicken breast 1kg 9.99€
At $6.35/lb that's a little high for good chicken.

>Ramazotti 0.7l 8.99€
At $12.50, that's cheap. We would pay about $30. Can't get it here, though.

>Erdinger Weißbeer 10liters 12.79€
at $4.50 for a 6 pack, that's cheaper than we pay for good beer at about $8.

>German potatoes 10kg 1.99€
That's about 1/4 the cost here.

>Onions 5kg 1.59€
That's about 1/4 of what I would pay on sale.

>Ananas Extra sweet 1.49€
About 1/2 price

>Appenzeller Cheese 100g 1.49€
We pay about 60% more for good cheese.

>Beef filet 1kg 6.99€
Asked and answered

>Vienna Sausages 100g 79ct
If you are talking about cans of teeny little sausages, that's a favorite down here. About 1/2 that price.

>yoghurt 500g 85ct.
About the same price.

A proper bread here costs about 6.25E/kg

All prices are net, since we recently removed our sales tax on food.

We have recently seen rapid price rises for eggs, milk and cheese - about 35% in the last 3 months.

Hi comfy,

>.. a related article that I read in New Yorker

Been there, done that, when Reagan was President.

julies, Welcome. New Yorker is an excellent magazine.

ira, past performance may not be a good predictor of the future That said, I hope the article's basic assumptions don't come true. May be if Ralph Nader becomes the President, it won't. Just kidding.

Thanks for the infos, ira.
>rapid price rises for eggs, milk and cheese - about 35% in the last 3 months.
Not eggs, but milk and cheese have gone up by about 20% here too. And it looks like the price for bread and beer will increase further too. Some people acually think burning foodstuffs (called "biofuel") in their cars engines is a good idea. If I were a christian, I would call it a sin. Crazy!

You can almost, but not quite, quantify the "psychological barrier." For us it's about where the cost per night for a reasonably habitable room plus a reasonable daily per diem for food reaches so high that we cannot afford to stay in Europe long enough to make the cost of the flight worth it, allow us to overcome jetlag, and to enjoy the trip.

People less affected by jetlag and having to lose a decent night's sleep (because 95%+ of flights from US to Europe are overnight) might be able to embrace the idea of a quick splurge weekend, but I'd hate to spend the airfare or burn the miles for just 3-4 days.

For me, the lower threshhold is somewhere right around a week or 10 days.

Insert here old crotchedy voice: And when I think about the 10 weeks I spent in Europe for $1000 including airfare and everything else..... 1968!

Hey, HK

>And when I think about the 10 weeks I spent in Europe for $1000 including airfare and everything else..... 1968!<

LOL

When you didn't mind sleeping in your clothes in a hostel dorm room with one bathroom and one toilet down the hall, living on pizza and ham sandwiches, sleeping on trains, and the average family income was $8600.

ira - I think you have hit the nail on the head
As well, are you prepared to travel in off season. We are in France now and can't believe how much the prices change after the torists leave.
Are you prepared to choose different locales - higher number arrondissements in Paris, apartments or gites instead of American full service hotels, Dordogne instead of Paris perhaps?
Are you prepared to alter your way of travel - eat lunch at a restaurant and dinner at your gite, buy take away at the market, buy food at a market, drink wine at E4 a bottle or E11 a bag in boite at your own patio instead of a cafe, picnics?
Will you forego museums and entry-cost sites for free walking tours, gardens, free museum days, free concerts, church architecture, market walking, fetes, etc?
Will you look for ways to save money while here - formula meals that are entre and plat (+/-E11 everywhere), E2 pastis and E3 wine at our rural cafe in Carlux, 2* instead of 3* accomodation?

But I don't know why I am telling you all this... we are enjoying the calm and uncluttered travel and deals while you are home decrying the cost of travel.
Guarantee...when the US dollar goes back up, the tourists will return to France and the prices will rise accordingly. Supply and demand.

Actually I was traveling with a hostel-hostile friend, so we had "Europe on $5 a Day" clutched in our hands, went to "tourist police" in each new town, and usually found quite reasonable accommodations. We did eat a lot of omelets, though. (And our airfare Boston-London was $186 because we were on a university charter.)

I would second what Robjame said. There are ways to spend less and have as much fun if you stay away from the big cities.

When I wanted to see Provence during the lavender season last summer, I rented a small house in the Dep. of Vaucluse (Pays de Sault) for 350E/week. Add a rental car for 200E/wk.
We would usually have lunch at a bistro or restaurant while exploring the area, and liked it better to fix dinner at "home" when we relaxed from hiking or seeing the sights.
So, excluding airfare, that one week in Provence (in high season) was definetely less than 1,000E (for two people).

To be honest, while a hotel may be the right choice for a stay in Paris, few of my European travellers would want to (or could afford to) spend 150 or 200E a NIGHT, travelling for 14 days from one major city to another.

But I agree that if your European travel intinerary has to include London, Paris, Venice, and Rome, it will be hard to travel and not spend a lot of money these days...

HKP, you spendthrift, you. Let's see. Ten weeks or 70 days at $5 a day = $ 350. Add the airfare. What was that reckless spending you did with the other $ 464?

Speaking of the big cities as opposed to rural Europe or America.

Here are a few of our most recent trips with our average daily cost for two of us. The costs include lodging, transporatation (not including getting there), tickets, admissions, food and drink -- all expenses in other words.

Chicago -- 7 days 2005: $472 per day.
San Francisco -- 14 days 2006: $349 average
Los Angeles --14 days 2006: $362 average
San Diego -- 7 days 2006: $ 375 average
Madrid -- 7 days 2006: $287 average
Rome -- 7 days 2006: $329 average
Paris -- 10 days 2007: $307 average
Rome -- 7 days 2007: $380 average
Venice -- 7 days 2007: $362 average
Amsterdam -- 7 days 2007: $ 367 average.
New York -- 32 days 2007: $ 486 average
London -- 10 days 2007: $ 583 average

(It should be noted that while of course London and New York would be high anyway, both included a lot of theatre -- New York a show at least every other day and in London two shows most days)

All the above included apartments of pretty much equal quality. Did we have to "scrimp" more in Europe than in the US? No, probably if anything just the opposite. We avoided more expensive restaurants in LA or SanFrancisco MORE than we did in Europe, and made use of our kitchens in the US more as well.
In fact, I would say our "quality" of living was overall probably higher in Europe than in the US.

I rest my case.

We have taken 3 trips to Europe since 2002 with our daughters, but the current exchange rates have made it impossible to travel with 5 people. We're no looking at U.S. based vacations, and we're trying our first cruise in January. We probably won't be back to Europe for a long long time (unless the FX exchange changes dramatically).

I personally don't get all the angst -

- Presumeably your airfares are paid in $

- your rental car is in $ (at rates negotiated several months ago when the $ was a bit stronger)

- If you choose to use rail passes - they are paid in $ at prices set before this year's rates were published late last year.

- w/ all the money-saving hint/stips fodorites share, the high £ and € shouldn't be such a hardship.

It definitely can mean cutting back some - but not going at all?? Prices are up back home too. I pay as much for hotels in SF or NYC as I do in London, Paris or Edinburgh.

Robjame--

You've hit the nail on the head. The problem for us is that what you've stated is already the way we tend to travel.

"Are you prepared to choose different locales - higher number arrondissements in Paris, apartments or gites instead of American full service hotels, Dordogne instead of Paris perhaps?"

We rented an apartment in the 12th last year. We've rented gites in rural Brittany, the Pyrenees and Normandy that were very reasonably priced.

"Are you prepared to alter your way of travel - eat lunch at a restaurant and dinner at your gite, buy take away at the market, buy food at a market, drink wine at E4 a bottle or E11 a bag in boite at your own patio instead of a cafe, picnics?"

Ditto here. This is our typical travel style, and actually we often find it more enjoyable and relaxing.

"Will you forego museums and entry-cost sites for free walking tours, gardens, free museum days, free concerts, church architecture, market walking, fetes, etc?"

We still pay fees for the things we really want to see, but also love to just walk and take in the things that are free.

"Will you look for ways to save money while here - formula meals that are entre and plat (+/-E11 everywhere), E2 pastis and E3 wine at our rural cafe in Carlux, 2* instead of 3* accomodation?"

We are very familiar with inexpensive meals and 3* hotels are typically special events for us>

Julies, again I feel your pain. Like you, we are [relative] bargain travelers, and again like you we've gone to Europe every year in the past. I've noticed that some of the regulars here are, comparatively, armchair travelers. They go to Europe every few years. Given that, they haven't felt the steady increase in all costs since 2002-3, including air fare, food, lodging, etc. Plus their trips are occasional splurges, so higher costs probably don't hit as hard.

Wow, the Canadian $ just topped the US $ for the first time in human memory--at least in this human's. It's 1:01 to 1 in comparison to something like $.84 to the US $1 about four months ago. Bully for the snowbird; they'll have more spending power in Orlando and St. Pete this winter.

Ira, nobody was pulling my leg...I was giving a simplified math example...

Neo Patrick....all I know is that something that was supposed to be 41 Euro (and I do use Capitol One) was 48 Euro when I got my charge bill..as THEIR bank in Madrid added on the charges - additionally, if you want a few Euro from the bank before you leave the States...you will not be paying 1.42 but somewhere around $1.70 or more for the exchange + their extra charge or commission, whatever you want to call it. Just go to triple AAA and ask for one of their little Euro packets. If your experience has been different, and you know a place where you can get a Euro in the States for the current quoted exchange price of $1.42, do tell me where that place is and I'll run right over, cause the last time I got Euro in the States, I gave them $1000 and they gave me back about $768 or so worth of Euro.

I too dont feel that I can justify Europe with the Euro being this strong. I usually go once a year for 10 days. I have been doing this for the past 6 years. I am so upset over the Euro's strength, and cant rationalize spending that kind of money any longer. This past May, We went to Prague and Vienna and we spent far more than we wanted to from the cost of hotels to food .....just everything from soup to nuts. Id love to do a big trip again this coming spring/summer/fall, Anyone have any ideas of other great places? Of course there is NO PLACE LIKE EUROPE!!! But.... Maybe it would be good for me to give another location a try while we wait for the Euro to come down!

>while we wait for the Euro to come down!
It's not going to happen. This time, changes will be final no rebound for the USD. There's only one direction and no it's not the Euro that is strong. Just understand how severe the situation is.

has anyone been to Turkey or Croatia? I hear it's a great trip and not to $$? However, someone also told me it was not that safe. Anyone know anyone know anything about either?

mahya, I guess I missed your response until this post came back up. For starters -- if someone charged you 48 euros for something marked 41, there was either a major mistake or you were ripped off -- pure and simple. No one adds 17% for any legitimate credit card purchase. I have no idea why you wouldn't call the credit card company and protest -- LOUDLY.

As to the other things, like going to AAA -- sure, that was my point. Get money in advance of going and you pay through the nose to get it. Wait till you get there and use a regular credit card for purchases or an ATM card for withdrawals, and you will be paying only one percent to three percent.

I'll never give up on going there but have temporarily given up shopping there. Years ago, I liked to bring a big half-empty suitcase and bring back tons of new clothes; now it's usually just an 18" carry-on.

We still enjoy Europe and we still go despite the increased costs. It all comes down to the fact that we feel the expense is worth it.

Recently, we visited Japan which seemed more expensive for some things than Europe, especially shopping.

We are very fortunate..we simply go and pay the bills when we return and look forward to the next trip.

Jroth21080~ Welcome to the forums! Your question is pretty much hidden way down on a long thread on a differing subject. You might want to start a new post for more replies. ~suze

Dukey, forgive me if you think my comment is out of order but you stated on a thread in the Lounge that you won 3.5 million dollars after taxes. If so your travel style and ability is quite different I would think then the average poster of Fodor's. So yes you are quite fortunate and I say that with a smile and a "bravo" for you..winning that amount of money is wonderful.

interesting thread

I love Buenos Aires too, it is European feeling but it's not Europe.

Surely the point is not how you work out prices /cost of living etc. it's how much it is worth to you as an individual.

I can't afford to travel every year but I do love to travel. I don't own my own home I prefer to travel than tie myself into a mortgage (plus house prices are so high I may never be able to afford it)

ira, your 3600E coming to $5100 for 2 weeks really put it in perspective for me. Where I'm from (Down Under), 3600E comes to $5900 in my currency, and that might (just) buy the return airfares for 2 of us to get to Europe! Naturally people in our part of the world seek other ways to economise (the accommodation & meal prices I see bandied around on this forum seem ludicrously expensive to us), but even so it's no wonder many of us look upon a trip to Europe as a once-in-a-lifetime event.

I finally, for the first time, read through some of this thread, which I have been avoiding on purpose for a variety of reasons.

Interesting debate, but I am not qualified to intervene, because it has been so long since I lived in the US that I am completely unhooked from the cost of living there, particularly since over the past 15 years or so, I have mostly gone there just to visit family and wasn't even paying for hotels and restaurants.

What is very clear is that people with no financial worries can still easily afford Europe. Those on a strict budget can also still visit Europe, but it takes more research and a few sacrifices that some people are unwilling to make. The 30€ hotel rooms and the 5€ meals that you can still find in Paris will not appeal to a number of you.

>3600E ... and that might (just) buy the return airfares for 2
You can easily find a flight from Europe to Australia for little above 1000€ rountrip. Is it really so much more when you start from Australia?

Hi all,

Yesterday was my Lady Wife's birthday, so we went up to Watkinsville to La Maison Bleu - one of the best restos in the greater Athens area.

Dinner for 2:

Crepe stuffed with crab and spinach
Potato skins stuffed with duck confit

Tilapia stuffed with crab
Grilled Barramundi Cod

Lava chocolate cake with ginger ice cream
Blackberry cobbler with vanilla ice cream

1 glass of red and 1 bottle of Pinot Grigio

With tax and tip: $135 (95E)

This is about the same, or slightly more, than I would pay for a similar meal in similar surroundings in Paris.

In France, eg, Albi or Cahors I would expect to pay somewhat less.

Wow that sounds like a fortune to pay for a meal of fish that is farmed and likely frozen to boot! With one glass of red and a bottle of almost always boring PG!! What the heck is "barramundi cod?" Is it barramundi or is it cod, or a wierd hybrid of both???

Hi EK,

Barramundi is a kind of codfish from Australia.

The Zenato PG (2006) was quite fresh and zesty. It went well with the fish.

Truth to tell, I've had better meals.

My point was that Europe isn't all that expensive, even at $1.42/E.

Ira: The barramundi I am familiar with has nothing to do with cod! It might be a bit similar to perch...barramundi cod sounds like an attempt by a restaurant to make an unfamilair fish palatable to diners. Don't imagine they flew it in from Australia, though! Tilapia on a rstaurant menu does not bode well, either!! Sorry your dining possibilities are so llimited but hope you had fun.

I have to agree, for about 100 euro or so one could have a truly good meal in Europe!

You know, my family of 4 wanted to go to Mexico for winter school break-- of course, Christmas time is a very expensive time to vacation somewhere warm-- but $10,000 at a 3 star all-inclusive for 5 nights???? Give me "expensive" Europe any day!

Hi ek,

>The barramundi I am familiar with has nothing to do with cod! <

I googled Barramundi from Australia.

It seems that there is Lates calcarifer and Cromileptes altivelis (Barramundi Cod), which is a sort of Grouper.

The resto only said that it was from Australia.

>Sorry your dining possibilities are so limited

Our local restos are about as good as going to Atlanta - at about the same prices. Unfortunately, that's not saying much.

>but hope you had fun.<

No use complaining.

Saw many menu or formula meals in France - mostly outside Paris $14 (or E10) would buy you starter, main course and dessert with tax and tip included. I can hardly match that in the US.

Well you could match that $14.00 at an Ihop or Denny's.

You can still get a nice Italian dinner in the states for $28.00 to $30.00, bread, soup or salad, entree, and a beverage. Now if you can tell me where I can get a good comparable meal in Paris for $25 I'd be thrilled.

mahya, there have been numerous threads about good full meals in Paris for under 20 euro -- that equals your $28 you mentioned.

Most GOOD Italian restaurants in our town have entrees starting at about $18 (pasta) -- meat entrees start around $22. Salads are usually $6 or more. Glasses of wine start at $7 "good wines" by the glass more like $11 and up. Now if you're talking Olive Garden, that may be a different matter, but for similar quality of food and atmosphere, I can easily match Paris or Rome prices to my local favorites.

Hi M,

>Well you could match that $14.00 at an Ihop or Denny's.

You are kidding, right?

>You can still get a nice Italian dinner in the states for $28.00 to $30.00, bread, soup or salad, entree, and a beverage. Now if you can tell me where I can get a good comparable meal in Paris for $25 I'd be thrilled.<

A. If it costs $30 in the US, why do you want it for $25 in Paris?

B. Pizza Vesuvio 1 Rue Gozlin 75006, Metro St. Germain des Pres.

Actually, it is better. Real wood-burning pizza oven.

We went to Bischero Ristorante Italiano in Athens, GA last night.

The two of us had a good bottle of Primitivo for $33 (23E, a bit high); shared a nice salad of arugula (rocket), oranges and Moroccan olives; a reasonably good 9" pizza (Roman style) and very nice ravioli - $86 (about 60E) w/tax and tip.

Unfortunately, my Lady Wife was up most of the night with heartburn.

Returned on October 19 from a 5-week trip to France.

In 2005 the same two couple did Italy.

I know you can watch the money spend, but we just tended to go to dinner at a nice place that we choose at random or through Fodorite suggestions.

The food was always good, the wine great and now and then we got a whopping surprise of a 21 euro piece of asparagus or two for a starter course.

It was very very expensive this time around. We definitely felt it. Probably will consider Quebec City when we pine for Paris next time.

I never have regrets as it was all wonderful and I feel pretty lucky to be able to go in the first place. We will definitely consider the euro when planning our next trip. I usually go to Europe every two years, but will probably think twice if the dollars doesn't get stronger.

I'm curious why on earth anyone would order one or two pieces (or even a whole plate assuming you didn't know how many pieces) of asparagus for 21 euro as a starter then complain about the prices? That's crazy, but it is possible to do that in the US too if you don't use any common sense.

Our waiter didn't speak any English and we spoke very little French.

The description of the starter sounded as if you could feast or at least share your starter with another person which we did on occasion.

When it arrived it was only two pieces of asparagus, mind you, very nicely arranged with sauce or whatever on a plate. We thought it was more of a side dish of vegetables and were rather shocked at the price when we saw what it actually was.

No stupidity involved whatsoever.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply "stupidity" but this board has been filled with reports of people ordering the "special" at US restaurants and being floored by the price. The bottom line is if you order something not on the menu, be prepared to pay anything for it, and don't complain later because it was so costly.

And there certainly is no way you should blame such gouging on the current exhange rate. Maybe you feel ripped off by what you got, but it has NOTHING to do with the euro to dollar rate!

I too love Europe, but haven't been able to travel there recently due to budget limitations. My solution... Latin America! As others have mentioned, Argentina is an especially good deal, and Buenos Aires is a very European-like city. I've also had very good experiences in the rest of Central and South America at very reasonable costs. Of course, you can also spend and arm and a leg in any of these places if you choose to, but with a little research there are some excellent deals to be found!

I don't think meals are super-cheap in Paris (drinks especially) compared to the US, but they aren't too bad. If a starter of asparagus was offered at 21 euro (which was on the menu, I believe -- the price -- if not, you never should order something without checking the price), I can see that you might expect it to be more than two stalks. That obviously must have been a very expensive restaurant, though, so it couldn't be a big surprise. No ordinary cafe or cheap restaurant would charge 21 euro for an asparagus starter. I haven't even paid that much at very touristy expensive places like Les Deux Magots for some similar things (like a leek tart or haricots verts salad). If asparagus wasn't in season and it was an expensive place, I could see that happening. But if one intends to split a starter with someone, you should definitely ask how many stalks it is or something.

You can do things like that anywhere, make choices you regret in restaurants and not checking prices, but I agree with Patrick, it has nothing to do with the topic, the exchange rate.

If you travel to go "somewhere" then you could substitute a trip to South America or Asia for a trip to Europe. If however, you are drawn to Europe or the UK, as I am, then you will make whatever modifications to your budget to allow those trips.

There are still too many places in Europe that I want to visit so I will look at these years of the shrinking dollar as a time to work a little harder in my trip planning to make it affordable. Along the way we always seem to find those undiscovered gems that make it all worthwhile. Deborah

We feel the same way, albeit, we just returned from Spain, due to an illness in my wife's family. (Sept-Oct).
We feel Europe with their exchange rate are shooting themselves in the foot, forcing tourism to smaller numbers every year, and thrown in the cost of the flights, what with the rising oil prices, being passed onto the "customer/tourist".
We would like to carry on as usual, as we have travel many times as yourself, but now travel there maybe just...a thought.

swampone, your reaction about them "shooting themselves in the foot" with their low exchange rate makes it sound as if THEY are the ones who decided that the dollar should not be worth as much as it was a year or more ago. Do you think the Europeans all got together and said, "let's show those American tourists by making their money worth less"?

"shooting themselves in the foot, forcing tourism to smaller numbers every year"

Wow, clearly a lack of understanding of global economics. If anything, "we" in the USA have no one to blame but ourselves (and those we've voted into political office).

I thought that was a comment reflecting the idea that "Europe" just gets together and decides what the exchange rate will be. No country does that actually (except maybe Cuba or some like that who accept the USD as currency).

However, from things I've read there is a little something to that issue, and it's not all just what the US does or not. There are policies by the EU central bank that do also affect exchange rates, just as policies of the US Federal Reserve can. So you can't say one is to blame, but the same policies on the other side have nothing to do with it. Not just against the USD, but the interest rates set by the European Central Bank affect European exports and currency values and trade, also. Sarkozy has talked about this, and said that has caused some of the financial problems at Airbus, and I don't think he was referencing the USD at all in those complaints.

I don't know the details of international monetary issues, but don't think it's simple. However, I do certainly think the US has too much debt and that isn't helping, and is getting worse.

I have travel plans for next week to Paris and Barcelona.

With the dollar a new low ($1.47 to 1 Euro) - this will unfortunately be my last trip to Europe (at least the Euro countries,) for a long time. Too bad, but it's become way too expensive for me. (And, now there area strikes in Paris too - another blow.)