Are you certain that this is connected to the passport incident, as it sounds a lot like a scam asking for financial info. If you send a copy of your passport you could be leaving yourself open to identity theft.

Which country sent the letter? If that's clear, then take it and your passport, together with the other paperwork you received at the time, to the relevant embassy. Don't send anything by post.

Thanks for the response, Rubicund. The letter came from Switzerland and it looks legitimate. I checked the address on the letter and it matches the gov't office in Lausanne and the person who suppousdly signed the letter is a judge in Switzerland, but your advice is good nontheless. Unfortunatly, the nearest embassy/consulate is about a four hour drive for me, so I may try to call them first.

Do you think it would be better to contact the Swiss embassy in Amercia or the US Embassy in Switzerland?

Thanks again.

I would take all the paperwork to my congressman's office and let their office sort it out for you.

If you were charged with a crime, what was it?

I'd be less concerned about my future 'tourist dollars' and more worried about extradition....

Well, you are allowed to roam around Europe without a passport, that wasn't a good thing to try, being a foreign citizen. And I think maybe you aren't telling all the details as to what the issue is -- such as how long you were in Europe to begin with and what you were doing there. Because I think there can be crimes/fines for overstaying the time you are allowed without a visa, as well as requirements for business people.

Also, you don't have any right to remain silent, what are you talking about.

It sounds like a fine for overstaying a visa.

I would send a copy of the letter to the nearest Swiss consulate to your residence, with a cover letter explaining the situation, your concerns that the letter might not be legitimate (although sounds as if it is) and your reluctance to send a copy of your passport and financial details.

Then, wait to see what happens next. I hardly think extradition is likely, for God's sake, but don't ignore the request entirely.

I don't think extradition is likely, either, but there is probably more to this than has been disclosed so far.

And in any case there's not a lot of point asking these type of questions on a travel forum anyway.

Still, it provides an entertaining discussion so no harm done.

MCKWE: Seriously, I would take that four hour drive...getting to the bottom of this dilemma. I'd not chance it to letters and phone calls. There may be a Swiss consulate closer to you. Many of the bigger cities would have consulate.

Seems pretty obvious to me why you get into this type predicaments to begin with...why (oh, why?) are you consulting a travel forum on a sensitive legal matter when you obviously have better places to look for an answer?

You do not even clearly state your citizenship (Americans do not typically called the United States "America") and, for how long were you there in Europe overall? TWO very critical pieces of info for anybody to even attempt to offer good advice. As opinions go, I think the information asked has to do with a VISA violation and the financial means that you had to support yourself as a long term foreign visitor, a typical question on a work VISA transaction.

Get your behind to an Embassy and stop wasting your time and others in futile inquiries on travel chat rooms....

I think the sugestion of contacting your Congressperson is a good one.

Are you going to postlater and tell us how this plays out? I often move around without my passport - not usually between countries tho. But I feel safer with another form of ID and my passport back in the hotel.

Good grief a passport back in your hotel room..Next to your skin in a $ belt is the best way. A PP is so precious I would never let it out of my sight. As far as hotel safes go they are easily opened as has happened to me on request, of course, but never the less opened by front desk personel.. As to the poster..Get specialized advise from someone who knows!!!

First off, thank you all for your tips. I was surprised to get this many responses so quickly. To answer a few specific questions:

mjdh1957 - When I put the French sentence about the crime in Google translator it comes back with this: "An investigation was opened against you following a denunciation of the Federal Customs Administration. You are accused of being between Switzerland and be for the benefit staying without a valid passport."

Christina - You are actually NOT allowed to roam around Europe without a valid passport. That is what got me into this mess. I was there for about a week on vacation and did not have a visa, nor did I need one. The right to remain silent is one of the few things written in English on my paperwork. That is what I'm talking about. Do you need any further details or wish to provide more sass?

Cathinjoetown - That is good advice. Thank you.

Viajero2 - I was born in America (excuse me, the United States of America) to two American parents and am 100% American. Your financial means comment matches up with some information I found elsewhere on the Internet involving the Shengen agreement. Thank you for that. It has something to do with preventing poor refugees from flooding certain countries, etc. I'm quite certain I have not wasted anyone's time. Here in America (excuse me again, the United States of America) we have the right to choose what we read and write. No one was forced to read my post or respond. I appreciated everyone's responses, even your response.

For everyone asking why I took this issue to a travel website: I assumed I was not the first person to forget his/her passport and thought maybe I'd find someone who was in a similar mess. Also, I figured I'd exhaust easier options like this before tackling harder, more time consuming, and more expensive options like hiring a lawyer, etc.

I left a message with the Swiss Embassy in DC, but have not heard back yet. I tried calling the Consulate in Atlanta (Closest to me), but they were out to lunch. I will try again soon and keep you all posted. Thanks again for all the comments! I do appreciate them.

MCKWE:

Would you care to post the French sentence about the crime in its original form on this thread. It seems extreme to fine you with $3000 for a mere oversight (even you might acted without much thought). I might be able to elucidate.

Cheers

Phil.

I wouldn't bother with the congress-critter. What help are they supposed to be with a foreign government?

Phil - Thanks for offering to help. Here are three unrelated sentences I struggled to translate (without the accent marks), but thought were significant:

1. Une enquete a ete ouverte contre vous suite a une denonciation de l'Administration federale des douanes. Il vous est reproche d'etre entre en Suisse et d'y avoir sejourne sans etre au benefice d'un passeport valable. I ASSUME THIS IS JUST THE LEGAL FRENCH WAY OF SAYING I GOT CAUGHT WITHOUT MY PASSPORT TRYING TO CROSS THE BORDER.

2. Le jour-amende est de 3000 francs au plus. Le juge en fixe le montant selon la situation personnelle et economique de l'auteur au moment du jugement, notamment en tenant compte de son revenu et de sa fortune, de son mode de vie, de ses obligations d'assistance, en particulier famiilales, et du minimum vital. 3,000 FRANCS PER DAY FOR WHAT EXACTLY?

3. Je vous impartis un delai au 7 mars 2013 pour me faire parvenir une copie de votre passeport ainsi que des eventuels visas y figurant. DID I MISS SOME MARCH 7 DEADLINE OR DID SOMETHING START ON MARCH 7?

I know French fairly well, will try:

1) does basically say that, but it really says you were caught in Switzerland traveling without a valid passport. I think some or all European countries have a law that you have to have valid identification on you. It doesn't mention crossing the border as the issue.
2) it says the daily fine is 3000 francs or more, the amount fixed by the guy who gave you the citation, based on his subjective opinion basically as to your situation and financial situation and family obligations and the minimum amount needed for daily existence (I think they want to make sure someone isn't an illegal immigrant). It also appears they might feel sorry for someone who was poor and had ten kids to support and fine them less, or wouldn't take all your money from you that you needed to survive on a basic level.

3) says you had until March 7th to provide them a copy of your passport as well as any visas you have.

Didn't they tell you that when they gave you the warning in Switzerland, that you had to provide them when a copy by a certain date?

There are actually laws in the US like that, if you are stopped for something and can't provide identification, the police can make you get it or hold you, I believe (such as making someone retrieve it and bring it).

It sounds like you are just being charged with not having a passport on you for ID, they just caught you at the border, that's all. YOu might want to read this about laws in Switzerland which says it is a law that you have some ID or passport on you: http://www.expatica.com/ch/life-in-switzerland/lifestyle/Crime-and-the-legal-system-in-Switzerland_17587.html

"Also, you don't have any right to remain silent, what are you talking about."

Christina: you have violated the first rule of wisdom.

The right to silence and protection against self-incrimination has been a right in the EU since at least 1996 (Murray v. UK, ECHR). Switzerland is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights which gives the European Court of Human Rights authority to enforce the Convention upon application of individuals against member states.

To the OP: this MAY be a situation like a minor traffic fine in the US where you just need to show proof of ____ (insurance, registration, etc) and the citation will be wiped out. European courts tend to have severe fines (they slap hard to make sure you don't do something stupid again). But don't take my word for it.

Take it seriously the Swiss are pretty tight about this sort of thing. A friend of mine was arrested in Switzerland for being without any money in his pocket, after falling asleep in a hot churchyard and no passport (in the UK you do not need to carry ID at all times). It took my Sister-in-law a few hours to track him down and get him out of jail.

Get in touch with the asap.

Christina - Thank you for the translations. Regarding #3, that is what I was afraid of. I specifically asked the officiers both leaving Switzerland and returning if a) I needed to present my passport once I had it and b) do anything further and both sets of officials said no. In fact, the last one told me I could throw the papers they gave me in the trash. My French is quite poor, but their English was very good. That is very frustrating. I could have easily visited the office in Lausanne and resolved it before it escalated.

Current plan:
1. I've got calls into the Swiss Embassy and Consulate.
2. I've got an email into the US Embassy in Bern.
3. My girlfriend does a lot of business in Switzerland and happens to be there right now. I may email her a copy of my passport and see if she can go in person and resolve it for me.

BigRuss - I hope you are right, but I'm going to treat it like bilboburgler said until I know otherwise.

Thank you all for your help! I will keep you posted.

The Swiss Embassy website has a fair amount of information about this, though it doesn't mention specific fines for this particular crime.

If traveling as a foreigner you must always have your passport (and other ID, if it applies to you, which it doesn't) you. If you are stopped and found to be without it, the authority stopping you may take you in for questioning or fine you, or both - and it's at the discretion of the authority who stops you. In this case, apparently they didn't interrogate you but did turn paperwork into the legal authorities recommending this fine.

The judge handling the case determines the fine based on subjective opinion of the violater's situation at the moment of apprehension, but will take into account the violater's revenue, financial obligations (particularly in relation to family obligations), standard of living, etc.

Yes, you missed a deadline of March 7 to get the judge a copy of your passport and any visas you might have had.

Get in touch with the embassy, or consulate...now.

"It doesn't mention crossing the border as the issue"

I would think it does as it mentions having entered Switzerland without a passport.

<Il vous est reproche d'etre entre en Suisse et d'y avoir sejourne sans etre au benefice d'un passeport valable.>

I agree with the previous poster. I believe this says you are being reproached for having entered Switzerland and having stayed there without benefit of a valid passport.

Hope you can clear this up by showing a Swiss consulate that you in fact had a valid passport at the time.

Good luck!

Well, but it also says "...et d'y avoir séjourné..." which means you stayed there/moved about there (without your passport), so I presume one of your arguments could be that you didn't stay there or move about without your passport - you hd it with you the entire time except for the 1-day/night trip to France. Presumably whoever you were staying with could vouch for the fact that you actually did have your passport and weren't roaming around Switzerland without it. Presumably also, there is documented evidence that you arrived and entered Switzerland with the proper documentation.

StCirq - Thanks for the information. I was interrogated on the train for about 45 minutes.

Wow! So the punishment (fine) is not based on the crime, but is based instead on the accused's ability to withstand such punishment (pay). Wow!

Hopefully this is just a big misunderstanding and gets cleared up quickly. If not, I think my days of traveling to Switzerland are over.

StCirq - Good points! And I can easily verify the statement in your last sentence as I have the passport stamps for entry and exit from GVA. Thank you.

MCKWE:

It is as others said: you are accused to have entered and stayed in Switzerland without valid identification. You had time up to march 7 to produce an acceptable passport (and visa, if applicable).

I suggest you write a friendly letter stating your point of view about the whole affair, include a timeline of the proceedings (with precise dates of travel and when you got the letter from Switzerland), photocopy your passport, and address the whole thing to the correct authority. This should resolve the whole thing.

I understand that it was the customs office which brought your case forward (administration fédérale des douanes), while the forms were filled out by either the local police or the border guards. These authorities do not always co-ordinate their activities.

Hope this helps

Phil.

Phil - I'm going to do exactly that. I will give the embassies and consulates one more try tomorrow. Then I will proceed with a letter. I'm also going to include copies of the pages where my passport was stamped at GVA.

One concern I have is that they don't have anyone who can speak English well. I would hate for my letter to get misunderstood. I may try to filter it through Google translator and send one copy in English and one in French in the same envelope.

Thanks!

I would take the four hour drive and make sure it gets handled.

As I said in my post, I agree with 1ready2go...but a consulate would also do, and since it's closer (in Atlanta) go in person, please. For peace of mind. Letters could be wrapped in red tape and could take weeks or months.
stu

"One concern I have is that they don't have anyone who can speak English well. I would hate for my letter to get misunderstood. I may try to filter it through Google translator and send one copy in English and one in French in the same envelope."

Very unlikely that they will not have many English speakers on the staff, but a translation would be seen as a courtesy, go for it.

Are Google translators sufficiently good for this purpose? If there is any miscommunication, would it be a problem if you inadvertently introduced it through the Google translator, rather than having the potential for a mistake in translation occur at their end?

I would not rely on Google for translation. Seriously. Send me your letter and I will have it translated for you. You need a "real" translation, preferably notarized, to show you mean business. You'll have to pay a bit (maybe $50) for this, including the notarization, but it's worth it.

And there are probably other people here on Fodors who can do this for you, too - I'm not soliciting business, just trying to help.

I also have a French/American lawyer in Paris if you end up in big doo-doo. He's pricey, of course, but as a last resort...

Very interesting event and thread. I was stopped while driving in Switzerland about 15 years ago. Everybody on the road was pulled over and asked to show their papers. I was driving a car rented in France by a friend who had loaned me the car and was not present. The Swiss officer asked me what I was doing in Switzerland. I told him it was a vacation and showed him my passport. That was it.

I am curious about all the Fodorite's who keep their passports in their hotel rooms for safety. It seems to me that the only safe place is on your person under your clothes. What good is it in your hotel room?

The fine is 3000CHF per day maximum. That's the difference between au plus or ou plus.

correction: the difference between au plus and ou plus

Spaarne..sounds like you and I are the same pp carriers!! Always on the body!!! Another point...Everytime I used a credit card in stores in Spain I was asked for my pp. Don't know about elsewhere. Also stopped on a back road in Basque country and same thing..Inernational dr. l. and again pp.. go figure!!!

Michael - Thanks for the clairfication. But I still don't understand what the time period is exactly, per day of what? Per day without my passport or per day that I don't respond?

StCirq - Thanks for the offer, but I recently found someone through a friend who is also fleuent in French.

RE Passport on the body - I totally agree and always follow that rule. This was a case where I had it in a secure pocket of my jacket, but then switched jackets at the last minute. I just forgot about it. Regardless, fee free to chide away!

Update - None of the embassies or consulates I have contacted (by email and telephone) have responded to me. How sad it is that a travel blog is much more useful than the government.

So are you in the States now or in Europe? Something about the 4 hour drive threw me. Some consulates are only open for phone conversations a couple of times a week for a few short hours a week. It might help to check that information again. I wouldn't write off traveling to Switzerland again. You never know what opportunity may present itself to travel there in the future. Good luck with your situation. I live in Europe but come from America. Where I live the natives call it Amerika so makes for an easy translation. In case you wondered.

I have some French, live in France and believe the 3,000€ per day is the maximim which could be imposed. Something akin to "subject to a fine up to $25,000." I waited to write this until I verified it with my French teacher. She and I seriously doubt that the meter is running.

So, hope that eases your anxiety although this is just two people's opinion and of course we could be totally wrong. Here's what I would do asap: Keep trying with the consulate and embassy but get a letter off now directly to whomever wrote you, adding that the delay has been in part to getting a translation and trying to contact the Swiss consulate and embassy. Don't mention trying to conact any U.S. authorities, might annoy them.

As suggested above in the thread, send only a copy of your passport including the relevant pages that were stamped with the entrance and exit dates. Don't send financial details at this point.

Good luck. They are being thorough; you can't be the first person to reach a border without your passport and if they had been really concerned you would have been detained.

As you hopefully had been able to obtain valid legal advice from the Swiss embassy, just a few words on this matter to maybe clarify what is the case here.
Again, not what I say matters, but whatever someone with legal expertise in Swiss Federal law says.

With this caveat, I would say:

1) You have been charged with entering /staying in Switzerland without legal permission, i.e. having a visa, or just a valid passport with entry stamps under the visa waiver scheme. This is the maximum possible felony under the circumstances as the border control officers who caught you had no way to assess if you just forgot your passport or did not even have one.
If you can provide proof that you had been a legal foreigner (tourist in your case) for the time in question, the charge of this felony will dropped, and your case will be "downsized" to not having your ID with you. Which is a much different felony (or just a misdemenour) and will incur a much milder penalty - if any.

2) The instrument of "fines per day" is very common in many jurisdictions here. And is, as you experienced, connected to your financial situation. It has nothing to do with the number of days of your "illegal" stay in Switzerland (if it had been illegal, which it was not). Usually the law will be phrased like: For felony A a fine of x daily installments up to y Francs or Euros can be imposed. The x represents the severeness of the felony, the y your financial situation as a percentage of your, usually montly, income.
Again, the CHF 3000 max daily fine reflect the worst case scenario crime, i.e. having no legal permission for your stay in Switzerland, which you can prove was not the case.

3) As you passed the deadline for replying to the Swiss authorities, your statement shall also address this matter. In legal terms you simply apply for a re-instatement of the deadline due to causes beyond your control. In your case it would be the long time the letter needed to reach you.

4) Do NOT submit your statement in a language you cannot understand. Or mark it clearly as a non-binding translation. Or get a legally-binding translation by a notary who understands what he/she is doing.

5) As said above, as a legal alien, e.g. tourist, you are obliged to carry ID at ANY time. No matter how precious your passport is for you, when you leave your hotel without it, you commit at least a misdeamenor if not felony. To make things worse, some jurisdictions make copies of ID documents like passports a felony in itself, i.e. an attempt to counterfeit ID documents. So you commit two crimes in one. While in real life, most cops will understand why you do that, it is up to their assessment if they wish to detain you for that. Which will usually not happen, but you should not make perfect color copies, but rather b/w which cannot be mistaken as counterfeit ID.

Re-read the caveat of first paragraph, and good luck with getting in touch with the Swiss embassy or consulate.
It won't be the first time they encounter someone with this problem so you can expect a normal bureaucratic procedure which you just follow as being told by them.

MCKWE posted -"...this is just a big misunderstanding and gets cleared up quickly." Actually, this situation is pretty clear cut-- you entered a country without the proper documentation and there are consequences to deal with.

Submit to the Swiss Embassy: both electronically and hard copies of (scan/email/certified-mail hard copies) passport, copy of the hotel bill stay, copies of the train tickets indicating in/out of Switzerland, and copies of the flights tickets itinerary (Roundtrip). This is all evidence of a Tourist type travel.

I must be in the same group as the OP as I would NEVER carry my passport with me if I was out and about on holiday, it would remain in the safe at the hotel. However if I was crossing a border then I would have it with me.

Not carrying your passport because it had been stolen seems like a reasonable excuse. Not carrying one because you have left it in your hotel room, and were some distance away, might arouse suspicions.

Finecheapboxofwine - First off, awesome name. Yes, I am currently in America. I was just in Switzerland for a week in late January, but obviously regretting it now.

Cathinjoetown and Cowboy68 - Good summary and additional information. Thank you! I appreciate you both taking the time to write it all.

Viajero2 - Perhaps I should have said miscommunication instead of misunderstanding. The March 7th deadline was never communicated to me until well after the fact. In fact, I was specifically told by the immigration officials (who spoke English very well) that the matter was done and no further action was required on my part. It has nothing to do with what time I received their letter, which was postmarked March 3, 2013.

Smeagol - I did not have my passport because I forgot it. It was not intentional. Neither I, nor any travel expert, would advise you to travel around foreign lands without your passport at all times.

Update - I'm faxing the letter (in English and French, with a disclaimer in English on the top of the French letter) and a copy of my passport to the officials today. I'm also dropping it in the mail.

I'm guessing it will end up in some black hole and I will probably never get a response. If I do, I will let you all know. Thank you all so much for your thoughts and advice. It was very helpful, especially since the Swiss and American governments just ignored me.

I hope yo get it sorted.

As a side note my husband, British, resident in the Netherlands, and pre Schengen, once went to Denmark on business. He drove there as he first had to visit a couple of places in Germany on the way.
No problem until he got to the Danish border, where he discovered to his horror that he had left his passport in his office in NL. The Danish immigration people were not happy, but because he had his Dutch drivers licence with him, and after contacting the company he was to visit, they reluctantly let him in. On his return the Germans saw the Dutch plate on the car and just waved him through.
It happens. He was lucky. Sadly you weren't. As I said, I hope you get it sorted.

If you don't get any response from the Swiss it could still be a good idea to contact your Congressperson. Overseas, the embassy helps US citizens to sort out problems. At least in my district (an I live near Atl) there is a immigration liason that has contacts with overseas officials. You're a US citizen, I would think it might be helpful to call or send an email to your Senator or Representative. To my clients that I refer to their reps., the reps are almost always responsive.

When in Florence for a semester last year, my son and his friends traveled to other Schengen countries without passports, using US drivers licenses as ID for planes and trains.

Have the rules for Switzerland changed?

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_4361.html

I think the only thing a congressperson would be able to do is give you names of attorneys in Switzerland. US embassys are not in the habit of getting involved in local crimes - the most they do is refer the person to an attorney to represent them.

I wonder if we're all obsessing a bit too much on this topic. If the guys in the train were really exercised by the fact that he had no passport, they'd have arrested him there and then. The fact that they let him go without too much thought shows that they were fairly satisfied that he was legit.

The fine is probably the maximum that could be levied for the "crime", but I think that it's probably regarded as a very minor misdemeanor.

No this is Switzerland, they are very law abiding and the whole, "it isn't a big thing", does not work there. This is a significant cultural difference from other countries. They even have laws about which days you can hang your duvets out the window and the use of lawn mowers on Saturdays.

@crosscheck - that link refers to crossing borders. The OP's problem wasn't the border, it was being in Switzerland without having his passport with him. See: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1034.html

"In Switzerland it is expected that citizens and visitors carry an I.D. and/or a passport. Should the police stop you, and you are without an I.D., it is possible that you may be taken in for questioning."

Right - so any govt-issued ID will do.

"Right - so any govt-issued ID will do."

For a citizen, no doubt. For a foreigner, I wouldn't count on it. The website of the Swiss embassy in Washington says:

"must be in possession of a valid travel document recognized by the Swiss authorities" (my emphasis)

I doubt your US driver's license would count.

I'm slightly surprised that the Swiss authorities would send you a notice of a fine to the USA (or America) in French. I'd have thought that they would understand that you would be an English speaker, and as German is the official language of Switzerland,it makes no sense to me that they would issue a penalty notice to you in French. Maybe that's a legitimate excuse for non-compliance with the date requirement for response (7th March)- you couldn't understand what was required of you?

And I'm all for leaving the passport safely in a room or apartment - I have never carried my passport unless I have needed to for a particular purpose in another country - ie, hardly ever unless changing accommodation or crossing a national border (and I always carry it then - surprised that this is not part of everyone's "self-patdown" when leaving a hotel room for this purpose).

Actually - on reflection - we didn't carry our passports when crossing backwards and forwards between Rome and Vatican City, but since there is no controlled border, this was never going to be a problem!

For those upset by how "unfair" the Swiss authorities are, it's also worth considering the response if one turned up at a USA border without passport - I doubt that one would be questioned, then allowed to continue their trip with a penalty notice subsequently sent to their home address!

<<as German is the official language of Switzerland,it makes no sense to me that they would issue a penalty notice to you in French.>>

German is only one of four official languages of Switzerland, the other ones being French, Italian, and Romansch.

"as German is the official language of Switzerland"

Wrong. German, French and Italian are the official languages. Romansh is a national language, but there is some online dispute as to whether it is an official language. The Swiss embassy website seems to prefer French.

" I'm all for leaving the passport safely in a room or apartment"

I carry it safely in my money belt, unless my hotel room has a safe, and often even then.

Official Swiss website seems to recognise a multiplicity of languages, as you would expect of the nation with its long history of interaction with World affairs:

http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/reps.html

Of course it "recognizes" lots of languages. That's totally different from what the "official languages" are. As thursdays noted, the embassy site is first in French, with options to switch other languages, including English, for parts of it.

For a civilians there are only two pieces of government-issued ID which comply with the regulations in the EU:
1. your passport (when you come from outside the EU)
2. your national ID card (if the member state where you resides issues them)

Your Drivers license, which by the way is not issued by your country's government but only state, is as much valid as your library card. Between some EU countries, exemptions with DLs or other forms of ID exist, but those only affect the respective nationals or residents and not foreign visitors. Or are also okay for other purposes like to check-in at airports.

No one can force you to carry your passport with you.
You just should not be so naive not to understand that you are outside the law.
And that it will be at the discretion of the respective LEO to fine or detain you - or not.

And the correspondance from the Swiss is in French because the incident ocurred in one of the French-language cantons of Switzerland. And is dealt with by the legal offices also of that canton. If the same had happened at the Swiss-German border, the letter would have been in German.

The Swiss embassy website seems to prefer French

Probably because it used to be the diplomatic language of the world in addition to being one of Switzerland's official languages, thus taking precedence over its other official languages.

Cowboy - so if you live in an EU state and it doesn't issue a national ID card, what do you carry?

I don't get why this is so complicated. The OP broke the law and has been sent official instructions from the government of the country in which it happened. The OP needs to follow the instructions and hope for the best - no larger fine for not responding on time or name being placed on an "illegal entry" list and having problems entering other countries in schengen.

I have no specific knowledge but would suggest that if not discharged this might well result in the equivlent of an arrest warrant and ban of entry into Schengen.

MCKWE...Once again..I don't know why you're putting off going to the Consulate in Atlanta. Call and make an appt. (and possibly bring your local atty. along), but that, to me, is the only sensible thing you can do at this point....and time goes on.

tower,

Further up the thread OP said he has had no response to email or telephone calls to the Swiss embassy or consulate.

Cowboy,
Well spoken.

MCKWE,
Your experience so far with the officials is not unlike my frustration dealing with the Veterans Administration recently on behalf of my brother. No response to repeated phone calls. We went to the VA Center in Saginaw yesterday and were bounced around from office to office and back again. It reminded me of the John Cleese Fawlty Towers series on BBC. No resolution. We have to go back. They don't make reservations.

If I were you I would send a certified letter with a copy of your passport to the personal attention of the Swiss Ambassador Manuel Sager in Washington, DC. See http://tinyurl.com/2abeunm. Everybody below him is a fonctionnaire hired specifically not to make decisions. Only the top dog can bark.

After reading this interesting thread, my conclusions are:

(1) You can prove that you *were* in the country legally with the visa stamps in you passport, so you cannot be fined 3000 CHF per day for being in the country illegally.

(2) It's possible they will fine you a minor amount for not having your passport on your person. If so, pay the fine and be done with it!

(3) A letter mailed on 3MAR from Switzerland to the USA, expecting a reply by 7MAR, creates an impossible expectation, and you cannot be liable for missing that deadline. You have already responded by mail and email with the requested information, and this "time stamps" the date of your response. Print out your email, making sure the time and date are on it, and keep it in a safe place. If you have proof of mailing, retain this as well, and keep a record of the date that you left a phone message with the Swiss Embassy or Consulate.

If you receive no response to your emails, letters, or phone messages, then forget about it. You have responded with a copy of your passport with the appropriate visa stamps. If they want further information, it is their responsibility to request the same of you.

And we all can learn from the experience - always have your passport with you when abroad!

thursdaysd,

If you are an EU national from a member state that knows no national ID cards (like the UK or ROI) you carry your passport when you visit the "Continent".
Or you should carry your passport:
I remember a British tourist at Faro airport in Portugal last fall who tried to get through passport control to leave the Schengen area with just his drivers license. Needless to say that he did not make it. Until he managed to get a hold of his wife by phone who carried his passport in her purse and was wandering around somewhere in the airport.

Cowboy - I should have been more specific. What if you live in a Schengen state with no ID cards? Or are there none?

"At present, three European Union member states (Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom) do not issue national identity cards to their citizens. Therefore, EU citizens from these three countries can only use a passport as a travel document to enter and reside in the EEA (EU, Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway) and Switzerland without a visa." (Wiki)
Only Denmark, Iceland and Norway (expected in 2015) among the Schengen states don't at present issue ID cards to their nationals.

What Alec wrote. If your EU or Schengen country does not issue ID cards, you have to carry your passport. As most countries issue ID cards, it is in almost everyone's wallet anytime anyway.

Actually the possession of a passport or ID varies across the EU so
Germany you have to have a passport with you at all times
Austria you need to be able to get to it within 1 hour
Italy you need to be able to get to it within 12 hours and of course
Switzerland you have to have a passport with you at all times

Well...this information certainly bodes well for the idea of not leaving your pp in the hotel room..Keep it body side!!!

Basically, this looks like a good lesson for all of those people who seem to think that a photocopy of their papers is as good as the real thing. If the rules say that you should have your papers, they really mean that you should have your authentic papers with you. Do any of you really think that back home, if you were stopped in traffic, that you could just show a photocopy of your driver's licence instead of the real thing?

Yes, but americans don;t have ID cards - there is no such thing - and MANY people reco to leave your passport in the hotel so it isn't stolen - which IMHO is close to madness. I always want something so valuable with me at all times - even if it weren't the law.

I have been following this thread with great interest, as I am planning to visit Switzerland soon and had not known of the requirement to have one’s passport at all times.

I’ve never knowlingly traveled abroad without carrying my passport on my person, except when I was required to leave it with my hotel. Although I’
ve never done so, it seems that I’ve frequently read on-line recommendations to leave one’s passport in a hotel safe, so I decided to check the guidebooks that I am using to plan my trip to Switzerland. I did NOT check every page; I only checked the sections covering basic travel info and requirements. I looked at:

The DK Eyewitness Guide, 2005
Fodors, 2011
Frommer’s, 2012
Lonely Planet, 2012
Michelin Green Guide, 2013
Rough Guide, 2010

Of these 6 guidebooks, the ONLY one that I found that said, in an obvious place, that one should always carry one’s passport, was the Lonely Planet guidebook. Let me clearly acknowledge that this information most certainly could have been in the other books, or in more current versions of them. I did not examine these books page-by-page.

I will say, though, that one of the main reasons that I’ve been purchasing travel guidebooks is to get information about legal requirements. I am disappointed that clearer information about this requirement was not readily available in the guidebooks I consulted.

Best wishes, MCKWE, and many thanks for bringing this requirement to our attention.

kja, interesting observation.
In Most European countries it is a legal requirement to have some sort of ID with you. A legal document with a photo. The best one is a passport.
Europeans carry around with them either local (for their own country)ID cards or passports.I can never understand the advice to leave them in hotel rooms.
Hopefully Fodors will see this posting and amend their books soon.

Europeans carry around with them either local (for their own country)ID cards or passports.I can never understand the advice to leave them in hotel rooms.>>

just to make it clear, in the UK there is NO legal requirement to carry any ID, whether you are a UK citizen or not.

and whilst ribeirasacra may be correct that non -UK european laws require this, i habitually leave my passport in the hotel safe and in 45 years of travelling in europe, i have never been asked to produce it except when crossing borders [the OP's problem] or booking into a hotel. oh yes, and when trying to buy something with a credit card in El Corte Ingles in Madrid.

Just to pop in here, I have on two occasions been asked to produce my UK passport on Swiss trains to verify my use of a Swiss Pass. I also assume that my passport is the most important document I have when abroad, it proves my nationality, tickets etc can be replaced passports take longer.

ann,

the UK is in the minority of EU or Schengen countries which do not issue ID cards. Roughly 400 out of 500 million Europeans have ID cards.

The obligation to carry also discriminates between nationals and foreigners in each country.
If you say that foreigners do not have to carry ID in the UK, I will surely believe you.

In reality, one will hardly need the passport for anything but crossing a border - where those still exist.

But there is a common misconception, usually by tourists from overseas incl. the British Isles, about the Schengen area legal requirements.

You still need to carry valid ID for intra-Schengen travels, there are just no checkpoints or passport control any longer when you travel from, say, Stockholm to Lisbon or Amsterdam to Hamburg. But you still need to carry.

OTOH, these liberties are balanced by increased competences for police in the Schengen countries. In each country, police has the right to check ID of any individual in major transport hubs (e.g. airports, train stations) and on major transit arteries, like railway lines and on major highways and motorways. For this, police needs no "reason" to check you through the SIS, the Schengen database, but can do spot control totally at their own discretion.
And while EU countries like the UK do not participate in the free movement of people across borders, they are in fact participating in the Schengen agreement in so far as they pool data in the same SIS database. And can access that data also when a foreigner who violated a Schengen provision tries to enter the UK.

In the old days, when you still had your ID checked at border crossings, police would have needed a "reason" (I have forgotten the exact translation for that, but I guess you get the point) to stop you and check your ID.

Last autumn, for example, I got checked while riding the ICE from Frankfurt airport to Munich.
If you consider how little time you actually spend abroad as a tourist, chances are high that you will never experience such "hinterland controls", though.

Which is, more or less, the same as what that Arizona State Law provides for. And is targeted in the same direction.
But even before that, and maybe a decade ago, I ran into spot controls near the AZ/Mex border and on the I-8 from Yuma to San Diego.

From what Google says, foreigners/tourists are also required in the US to carry passport and visa (waiver) documents with them at any time. Though I must admit that I did not take the time to dig out the respective Code for that.

In all my travels abroad, both for work and for pleasure I have never carried my passport with me when I am just going out and about. I do leave it in a hotel safe or in the apartment. I carry my drivers licence (with photo) with me for ID. I think the hassle of trying to replace a passport if I get my bag knocked off, no I am not wearing a body pouch thingy - would be far more inconvenient.

Obviously I have it when I go over a border. I have never been asked to show my passport except when booking into a hotel, or when I am actually moving between countries.

I wanted to buy something expensive from Printemps once in Paris and to get the duty free price a passport was required. I just went back the next day with my PP and got the discount.

Schnauzer

Possibly the most interesting and potentially useful post I have read in a long time.

This is one of those rare times when I wish Fodor's allowed sticky posts, posts that were always pinned to the top of the site.

How many times have we read, "Don't carry your passport, carry a copy." The collective wisdom was wrong, at least for Switzerland. Those officious shopgirls in France had every right to require passports as identification.

Now, many more of us will travel with lumpy waist belts.

annhig - in the Netherlands anyone over the age of 14 must be able to produce a valid ID when asked by an empowered officer (and that includes the Boswachters - who care for state owned woodland). Failure to do so results in a €90 fine (€45 for 14-16 year olds)
Most people have an ID card issued by the local council. As a British citizen I don't, but I always carry my drivers licence with me. If you have a photo ID then that is generally accepted, unless they require your immigration status.
For cross border travel an official ID card or passport is always required.
Certainly on ICE trains they do regular checks, and also in Amsterdam they can, and do, do spot checks.

what schnauzer said - i prefer to run the minor risk of being stopped and only having my driving licence on me [I do tend to carry that] than the major inconvenience of losing my passport or having it stolen.

and let's not forget that the only reason that the OP ran into difficulties is that s/he forgot that s/he needed a passport to cross a border.

Very interesting, you do know you have to carry roughly $10 in Switzerland to prove you are not a vagrant.

I've learnt a lot from this thread, as a Brit I've assumed that joining the EU meant we took our laws into the EU and given how hard we have fought not to carry ID cards I find it amazing but true. The UK government carry all the ID info for each country and the bit I like best is that in Italy a photo copy will do within the country

Still I have used a "Beano" membership card to get into the Louvre.

A museum isn;t crossing the border.

And I am always amazed by people who carry all their valuables in some sort of pack or elt or whatever under thir clothes. Must be terribly hot and uncomfortable. Also a pain when you want to buy something (I have seen tourists in shops pull one of these things out of their shirt to get money to buy something - weird!

Have been to europe ,ore than 100 times and never had a problem - and carry everythng in my purse - regular purse for business trips and small Sportsac for vacations.

I would send anything to anybody. You have no idea how many bogus emails I get. Letters as well.

Call the closest Swiss consulate (or embassy if you're near DC) and explain what happened. Make an appointment to see them.

That way you know you are avoiding a scam.

ann,

the same problem would have occurred if OP had been on a train from Zurich to Geneva and had been checked.
Spot controls on long distance trains (and not only international trains) are not uncommon. In some jurisdictions, you may be able to legally identify yourself with a drivers license. In others not.
It is no big deal if you roam around in the city where also your hotel is.
But if you were taking, for example, a day trip from Munich to Nuremberg, and forgot your passport or ID card, and got checked, this would result inevitably to a trip to the nearest police station at the next stop. No kidding or scare-mongering at all.

I assume that is hard to swallow for visitors which are not familiar to mandatory ID cards or think that it is the work of the devil.
But whatever your point of view is, it has absolutely no relevance when you decide to break the law.

Therefore, the blanket advice to leave the original passport in the hotel may suit some folks' comfort zones, and it may be possible to identify yourself with a DL or even a copy of the passport in some countries.
But as a generalized statement it is absolutely bogus and dangerous if you don't know how the country you will be visiting handles this matter. And the law is not uniform across the EU or within the Schengen area.

I left my passport in my friend's hotel room while going from Switzerland to Paris for one night on the train.>>

s/he was checked because s/he tried to cross a border without a passport.

this has got nothing to do with whether you choose to wander around europe without your passport clutched to your chest at all times. I appreciate that it is a requirement in Schengen countries to do so, but you should appreciate that unless you do something daft like the OP, the likelihood of your being stopped and required to produce it is vanishingly small, as my experience, and that of many other "foolhardy" travellers testifies.

not bogus or dangerous at all, just a personal decision.

I can't wait to see how this will turn out!

Folks, csrry your passports and leave your copies in your room as that will expedite replacement matters should you lose the passport.

There is no way I would release personal financial info to the Swiss authorities until it was absolutely clear that I had to.

The country is nuts about stuff like this. I lived there for 3 years and all I can say is the Swiss attitude toward money is tight, tight, tight.

Good luck MCKWE. It sounds a bit like a fishing expedition and once you send the docs in (sans personal financial info) will hopefully disappear.

I would presume the issue is that the OP didn't have a passport on him, the fact that it was a border was simply because that was where they were checking them.

NOw I always carry a copy of my passport on me at all times, I don't know why most people do not. It obviously doesn't take up any space (a piece of paper in my wallet). Of course I would always carry my passport if I would going to another country or overnight anywhere while traveling, or any place I will encounter border authorities, etc., but I don't always on a daily basis if I'm just going to the movies or walking down the street or going to a store (in Europe, I mean). But if the authorities asked for a copy of the passport in the citation, it would seem to me that if the OP had had at least a copy of their passport on them, that would have sufficed? Because if it would suffice later, why not at that point in time.

COpies have always been accepted when I try to use them for things that are not governmental, which isn't surprising, I guess (like stores who want them if you use a credit card, even money exchange places).

"foreigners/tourists are also required in the US to carry passport and visa (waiver) documents with them at any time"

I believe that. Back when I had a US green card (permanent resident card) it said right on the card that I was required to carry it at all times.

"And I am always amazed by people who carry all their valuables in some sort of pack or elt or whatever under thir clothes. Must be terribly hot and uncomfortable. Also a pain when you want to buy something..."

I have done a great deal of travel over the last decade and I have almost always worn a money belt. It is only hot and uncomfortable in weather when you would be hot and uncomfortable anyway. I am so used to wearing it that I feel undressed when I get home from a trip and stop wearing it. I NEVER access it for money in public, I carry a day's supply of cash where I can easily get at it. (I currently use this one: http://tinyurl.com/d2srlq2 )

annhig on Mar 24, 13 at 9:38am
Wrote:

Europeans carry around with them either local (for their own country)ID cards or passports.I can never understand the advice to leave them in hotel rooms.>>

just to make it clear, in the UK there is NO legal requirement to carry any ID, whether you are a UK citizen or not.

and whilst ribeirasacra may be correct that non -UK european laws require this, i habitually leave my passport in the hotel safe and in 45 years of travelling in europe, i have never been asked to produce it except when crossing borders [the OP's problem] or booking into a hotel. oh yes, and when trying to buy something with a credit card in El Corte Ingles in Madrid.

No there is no European law. I never said there was; I said in MOST European countries it is a requirement to carry ID. So when you are in what ever country the UK law does not prevails. That is (in most counties) you must have ID with you at all times. If you do not you could face arrest.

I have never been asked for an breathalyser test, whilst driving in the UK, but that does not mean I want to break the law.
Another illustration that UK law does not prevail. In most counties in Europe you have to carry around all the paperwork too. You never get a 7 day producer certificate from the police, unlike the UK.
For those who do not understand a Link: http://www.motordefenceteam.co.uk/offence-guide/hort1-producers.htm
Just do not break the laws and everything will go splendidly.

Another illustration that UK law does not prevail. In most counties in Europe you have to carry around all the paperwork too. You never get a 7 day producer certificate from the police, unlike the UK. >>

I never said it did either, ribeirsacra.

nor did i say that there was a european law, nor that you said there was.

I said that non-UK european lawS [ie pertaining to non-UK european countries] MAY require this, but UK law does not.

that was to assist people travelling in the UK, not to suggest that the same rules prevail outside the UK, as was obvious from the context.

it does explain why people like me choose not to carry their passport when we are "abroad" except when it is definitely required at borders. it's open to everyone to make a decision about this.

<<Just do not break the laws and everything will go splendidly.>>

if only that were true.

This whole document thing only started in the 1890s and never for the working classes only the upper classes. Seems like we fought for freedom not to be documented and still the b@@@@rs get us.

indeed bilbo.

though i think it has a lot to do with the differing attitudes to bureaucracy between the british system on the one hand, and the european/napoleonic system on the other.

Good grief.

It must be too hard to understand that in many countries it is not only required at borders but at any time, anywhere you go. Do you read that? Not only at borders. Anytime, anywhere.

What do you do when you run into a cop in Zurich or a state trooper in California who wants to see your passport/ visa? Sing "Rule Britannia" and show a stiff upper lip while you get a free day trip to the next precinct?

If you wish to exercise your "right" not to be documented, then you should not travel to countries where you break the law when you do as you do.
And since you have to "get documented" to obtain a passport to leave the country in the first place, this is mildly ridiculous anyway.
As if your government wouldn't know where you live, eat, shop or fart in the post 9/11 reality with easy access to cc and travel data, or CCTV at every street corner in some countries.

"Germany you have to have a passport with you at all times"

I don't think so. I need to own a passport or ID card but there's no need to carry it (with the exception of working in restaurants or constructions sides and similar jobs, mainly to allow for controls against illegally employed people).

Sorry - in the US you are not required to carry identification at all. Cops can ask your name - but you are under no obligation to give them any information - even if they charge you with a crime.

Naturally at that point you would have to ask for an attorney.

But you need your passport only to enter the country. If you have committed a crime and are a foreign national - then they can ask to see it to determine if you are there legally.

But we don;t - except for a very few places where anyone tan has to prove they are citizens - require that anyone carry "papers".

Cowboy said:

And the correspondance from the Swiss is in French because the incident ocurred in one of the French-language cantons of Switzerland. And is dealt with by the legal offices also of that canton. If the same had happened at the Swiss-German border, the letter would have been in German.


Thanks Cowboy - that makes much more sense to me for the language selection!

"We don't ... require that anyone carry 'papers'".

Guess you didn't read my post above. Resident aliens ARE required to carry their "green" (last one I had was actually pink) cards at all times.

Just asked a person of authority about this. I'm with Mr. Crosscheck in Paris. He's traveling with a large arts-related group, ~200 people, mostly Americans. They just spent five days in Lucerne, where they were told that Swiss law required them to carry COPIES of their passports at all times.

Time to take a deep breath, folks.

It would be nice to have actual data here.

Both Europe and the United States are collections of independent entities with some laws in common.

In Boston, you can turn right on red; in New York City, you can't.

Pierre asks, " May I turn right on red in the United States?"

I answer, "Maybe."

There are states where you don't have to carry your drivers license as long as you can produce it within 24 hours. I thought Massachusetts was one of them until a State Policeman told me otherwise.

Based on the OP's experience and Cowboy's discussion, I am willing to accept that I as a foreign national, must have my passport on my person in Switzerland.

The statute of limitations having passed about thirty years ago, I will confess that I made my share of fake ID back in the day. A photocopy of a passport is so easily altered as to be worthless as identification.

So, wouldn't it be nice if Fodor's writers, as part of their contracts, had to contact the local authorities to determine what the actual regulations are? it would be a selling point.

<<So, wouldn't it be nice if Fodor's writers, as part of their contracts, had to contact the local authorities to determine what the actual regulations are? it would be a selling point.>>

Hmm. I just spoke to a high-up local authority fifteen minutes ago at breakfast. The information I received was current as of this week, otherwise I would not have posted - A copy of the passport will suffice while within Switzerland. And as annhig (who is a UK attorney) posted, some Schengen countries don't require ID at all.

Wow! This thread has really taken on a life of its own. Here are some general comments/clairfications:

1. My advice regarding passport: When traveling abroad, keep your passport with you at all times and keep a copy in a safe place at the hotel. All this talk about having it stolen...stop going to dangerious places and/or be dilligent with your personal items, just like you do everywhwere in your home country. If someone robs you, whether they get your passport or not, you are probably screwed enough anyway that it will require a visit to the police station and/or embassy. Being able to produce the copy should expediate the replacement process. If you don't have it with you, you risk what happened to me or something much worse. If you do have it, you risk it getting stolen. I guess everyone just needs to weigh the risk/reward for themselves and take the appropriate steps to mitigate those risks.

I left most of my luggage in a hotel in Lusanne with a friend, while I went by myself to Paris with just an overnight bag. The friend was working all week in Switzerland. I usually don't have the luxery of traveling abroad with multiple hotel rooms in multiple countries. Based on the cold weather, I changed jacket right before leaving the hotel. That was my mistake. My passport was safely zipped away in a pocket in the jacket.

2. I think (but I'm not certain) I was detained on the train for being in Switzerland without a passport. I don't think it was because the train was crossing a boarder later that day. First, the check occured immediatley after the train left Lausanne, where it originated. Second, the train was direct to Paris and still had at least one other stop in Switzerland.

3. I could take a day off and drive to Atlanta, but there is a great chance they would ignore me in person, too. I could also contact my congressmen, but I'm not sure I could afford a large enough donation to get their attention. Basically, I'm going to give it about a month and see if I hear anything else. If not, I may have a friend of a friend who lives in Switzerland contact them by telephone to just see if they can find out if it is still outstanding or what. If it is, I can always esclate the matter to driving to Atlanta or contacting my Congressman at that time. I'm obviously not worried about being dragged out of my home and extridated to Switzerland. On the other hand, I'm not saying I am above the law. I would just prefer to not have a huge fine or be banned from any country or countries for something that started as a minor offense and potentially escalated because I was a) given bad information by multiple "officials" on the trains and b) a letter including demands was sent to me with a literally impossible to keep time frame listing suppousdly missing items that were never previously requested of me.

Thanks for all the good posts! My favorite ones are the helpful ones (of course), but I am always entertained by the ones from perfect people who never make mistakes and know everything.

Perhaps you were asked to show your passport because you were using a train ticket that you had bought online and had been printed out by you?

So are you saying you didn't respond by letter to Lausanne? If so, poor decision, imo. A letter will cost you nothing. Ignoring it could jeopardize a return to Switzerland, if you care.

Agree, they aren't going to come after you!

MCKWE- I actually scan all my travel documents (passport, drivers license, reservations, tickets, etc) and then attach them to an email DRAFT. I never send the email anywhere, but this allows me to access any travel docs I need simply by pulling up my email account on my iphone.

grandmere: I bought the train ticket with a credit card at the Lausanne station full service counter immediately before boarding the train.

Cathinjoetown: I did, indeed, mail and fax a detailed letter (in English and French) with a copy of my passport and passport stamps to the officials in Lausanne. It was buried in a post from late last week.

sarge56: Great idea! I assume you mean you could pull it up anywhere you had access to the Internet. I've used that technique to move files before, but never thoguht of using it for travel docs. Although, I use Gmail and it bugs me how they monitor everything.

Good!

I believe this is correct info from my last Apple class for my newly purchased first iPhone: you can take a picture of an email and put it with your Photos on phone, and this way you would not need access to Internet to pull it up. (As you can tell, I am not very technologically savvy, but I now have a Metro map of Paris among my Photos per what the Apple guy demonstrated)

My earlier theory about why they asked for your passport on train was off the mark, so maybe this is too; just ignore, if so!

MCK- Well, your mailbox administrators should not be able to see what is in your draft folder. The point is to never actually send it. (Unfortunately, this is how the 9-11 terrorists got around the gov't reading their email. It never went anywhere. They composed "draft" messages to each other and all had the login/password for the mailbox.)

So, in my opinion, there is no jeopardy of anyone getting ahold of your docs except you. (And yes, I meant whereever you could pick up an internet connection..)

yeah, that's how spy master Petraeus and his girlfriend Paula Broadwell thought they were being so clever, also, that no one would ever find out what they were up to. Of course no one was monitoring his emails at the time. I don't know if he was so dumb that he thought no one could ever find and read them that way, or what purpose that supposedly served.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/14/petraeus-scandal-protecting-private-emails_n_2129905.html

Well, Christina, not quite. They can't trace anything to an email that was never sent. That is the point. It doesn't move anywhere, so cannot be traced as being sent from someone.

What this article is stating is that Ms. Broadwell sent the threatening emails under a fictitious account, and they traced it back to her IP address. She should have known that that was a fairly-easy established process that any security/police agency could use to trace who'd sent an email. (It's how they find stalkers, perverts and people who threaten suicide or other crimes, etc.)

But they cannot trace something that was never sent unless they can get a court-order to have your service provider break into your email account. And it would be nearly impossible for them to figure out what those accounts were. (For instance, I don't even use the mailbox that comes from my service provider. I have a half-dozen email accounts at hotmail, ymail and yahoo. I use one for shopping only; one for family only; one for traveling, etc.)

From the link above, see:

"Petraeus and Broadwell reportedly took great measures to hide their affair. They used anonymous accounts and saved their correspondences in the "drafts" folder in order to use the account as a sort of online dropbox -- a technique often used by al-Qaeda terrorists to make it harder to trace their correspondence, according to the Associated Press. But this trick would not have protected them from government surveillance because law enforcement can still force email providers to turn over messages saved in "drafts" folders, according to Soghoian."

The article also explains how the feds figured out where to look. Short of encryption, and possibly not then, depending on how strong the key is, you have no expectation online privacy.

I travel with very little fear that the "authorities" will be even remotely interested in what I am doing, so happily send emails to and from my "travel" account.

I usually scan all my docs and send them plus all relevant emails for accom and tour bookings, ticket purchases, etc to a specific email account established just for a particular trip - it eliminates the time lost in searching for them amongst all the other rubbish on some of my high use accounts!

The fact that you have nothing to hide does not give the government the right to look.

thursday, I missed that. However, that is talking about government agencies at the highest levels.

My point was that, with regard to people like you and me, (I am of course assuming you hold no top secret position in the government), saving the draft is certainly more secure from prying eyes vs. sending an email somewhere with attached documents.

PS And, logically speaking, they wouldn't have asked for, nor gained access to, the incriminating emails without first having discovered that Ms. Broadwell was the sender of the threatening emails to the third party.

so, tell us, how did it turn out? You wanted to come back to report the results! We are very keen to learn about it.

I'm afraid he/she's in jail and incommunicado in France's equivalaent of GITMO.

Yes, please tell!