So makes Fodors "Anti-Gay"?

I finally had a chance to see some of the new Fodors Gold Guides by browsing the Waterstone's on Piccadilly (Fodors guides are not sold in most British bookstores). I didn't notice the lack of gay travel advice, but now that you've pointed it out, you're right, nothing was included. TimeOut guides generally include gay travel sections (clubs, general advice, etc.), better than Rough Guides IMO, but then I don't particularly care for the Rough Guides, period.

The thing I didn't like about the new Fodors GG was the way they used our postings. I've been quoted in a few books and it's nice to see your name on a chapter opening page but...I think readers would be better served if the guides used MORE posts and sprinkled them throughout the chapters at relevant points, rather than just a precious few at the front of each chapter. Even if using more posts means eliminating the much-appreciated complimentary guidebook reward

Rather a confrontational first post Mr Ripley. I just did a search for 'gay' on the Europe board and 100+ references came up.

Does the fact that somebody is 'gay' matter when touring? Only if your behaviour is overtly 'gay' I suspect when it becomes a public display, and as you might know better than me, different people react differently to that. I could be offended that there are no guides aimed at fairly well-off straight happily-married middle-class white people whose children have fled the nest and have no interest in lounging around on beaches. But I'm not, I got over it.

Bye bye, off to the Rough Guide with you.

I've never understood this. What about including tips for blacks, or Jews? Surely there are other groups that could have specific travel tips included for them, and a lot of them more directly related to travel concerns (such as for the mobility impaired).

welcome tom

You've confused me. Are you saying that Fodor's previously included references for gay travelers in their guides but have now removed them?

stfc says:

>I could be offended that there are no guides aimed at fairly well-off straight happily-married middle-class white people whose children have fled the nest and have no interest in lounging around on beaches. But I'm not, I got over it.<

Ummmm, I think you are already pretty well served with guides presently available. No need to feel offended

joe

"I’ve been a Fodorite for some time, but I now may have to switch my allegiance. "

If so, then you are either a coward and changed your screen name to post this - OR - you are not telling the truth about being a member for "some time".

"Perhaps Fodor’s fan base has grown more conservative. "

OMG!! - Have you taken a look in the Lounge??

BTW - to show how ridiculous this is -- click on DESTINATIONS above. The very first nightclub listed in Paris is 3W - "a pillar of the lesbian scene"

I don't feel anyone is anti-disabled because guides lack of good info for disabled travellers.
But at the same time I don't expect general guides to have info for every kind of traveller...but the average one. They are supposed to sell a lot of guides

To say that Fodor's is anti-gay because there is perhaps a dearth of gay travel stuff included is simply rubbish - why as you claim gay travel stuff is not covered in more depth may be for many reasons but not IMO because "Fodor's is now Anti-Gay"

You raise good points in your text but your headline is very off-putting.

Hmm…I was expecting the bigoted backlash, but not quite so quickly. Of course, these posts are generally poor in quality (consider JeanneB’s grammatical monstrosity: ‘So makes Fodors "Anti-Gay"?”’) But, since people have time on their hands, there are a few things that should be pointed out:

1. First, stfc, my tone was factual, not “confrontational.” There has been gay travel advice in every Fodor’s guide I’ve seen until this new crop of just-published books. My post (1) alerts gay travelers that this is no longer the case and that they should buy other guides and (2) may make the good people at Fodor’s reconsider their egregious editorial decision.
2. Again, stfc, there are many Internet hits for “gay Europe.” But, if that argument were not fallacious, why would anybody need to purchase any travel guide at all. I always check the Internet as well (usually the sites that Fodor’s recommends, although they’ve left off even that information this time around) but we buy Fodor’s guides because they are (or were) reliable guides written by trusted travel writers, employed by a brand we trusted. It says something rather unfortunate when Wikitravel.org now provides better information that Fodor’s.
3. Lastly, stfc (is that you Bill O’Reilly?), you make the wild claim that “I could be offended that there are no guides aimed at fairly well-off straight happily-married middle-class white people whose children have fled the nest and have no interest in lounging around on beaches. But I'm not, I got over it.” Well, my dear delusional middle-aged friend, that’s because ALMOST ALL TRAVEL GUIDES ARE AIMED AT YOU. Enjoy your complacency – I honestly don’t begrudge it you. (Although, the fact that you are familiar with Rough Guides says a bit about your extracurricular interests.)
4. Twk, you are right – there should be travel tips aimed at blacks, Jews, and the handicapped. Actually, I forgot to check – usually, Fodor’s does include travel tips for differently-abled persons, but they may have done away with that as well. If Jewish or black people are in physical danger if they travel to certain parts of the world (as I believe they are) it is their right – actually, their duty – to know about it beforehand. There are some parts of the world apparently where homosexuality is a criminal act and may be punishable by the death penalty (Wikitravel “Gay and Lesbian Travel”). If any of us are foolish enough to go to these places and act “overtly ‘gay’” (to use stfc’s term) by holding hands, then we may be in a bit of trouble. For that reasons, interesting travel destinations such as Poland and the Cayman Islands now seem a bit less interesting.

All this leads the average homosexual to ask: Where can I go on holiday where I am welcome? That’s a question Fodor’s no longer answers. I know, we homosexuals are a troublesome lot. Why can’t we just go back in the closet?

Joe:

Sorry, didn't see your post there. Yes, Fodor's always has included Gay Travel Tips before - now they have removed them. That's why this seems to be such a calculated act.

Thanks for the post!

Tom

<Where can I go on holiday where I am welcome?>

Cologne, Germany.

I guess I don't get this, either. Gays want to be treated like everyone else (and they should be), but they require special travel information...isn't that akin to some kind of disability?

And I think the leap from lack of information to "anti-gay" is pretty huge.

I guess Fodors isn't the right guidebook for you. Considering the number of different guidebooks available and everyone's varying travel requirements, that happens to all of us. Shrug.

Janis J:

Yes, I did cancel my Fodor’s account a while ago because I got disgusted with people who just wanted to pick fights with other posters and not talk about the realities of travel. Well Janis, you’ve shown me how wonderful the habitual Fodor’s posters can be.

I’d decided to stick with the books instead, but even those have now sadly degenerated. If you don’t believe me, check out the new London guide and compare it to one from five years ago.

The worst travel writing restricts itself to compliments: “beautiful white sand beaches” and the like. Responsible writers point out problems with destinations, guide books, and the act of traveling itself. It has been my experience that, whenever anything unflattering about any destination is written on this website, people viciously pounce on it. That is why I no longer visit the Talk section.

I did want to make this post however because I know that the Fodor’s editors (particularly Doug Stallings – good guy) visit these chatrooms. If he knows his readers are displeased, he may be instrumental in changing their policy back to what it was. This is a business after all.

Hmm…I was expecting the bigoted backlash, but not quite so quickly.

bigoted = if you do not agree with tomripley like in Ripley, Believe Me or Not

Long-time Fodorite first ever post? Something is rotten in Denmark and i'm getting a good whiff of it over here

Again valid points but terrible throwing around terms like bigoted and Fodor's is anti-gay.

Thanks grrr! I’ll look into it.

StCirq - you should really read the posts and not just the headline if you want to participate in the discussion. Yawn.

If my choice of the “anti-gay” headline were wrong (which it isn’t) then why has this post generated such a flurry of activity in the brief time it has been up? I doubt if I would have gotten the same response to a post entitled: “Fodor’s new guides make me feel blue.”

Tom - how do you cancel your Fodor's account? What account?

It seems that tomripley could well be a fake name of someone who may actually be on the Fodor's guides staff and is airing sour grapes here - just a hunch.

something does not pass the smell test of tomripley even though again he/she seems to have very valid complaints

the evasive MR Ripley: You did not address my point that the VERY first recommendation in Fodor's on-line guide to Paris is a Lesbian club??

Or this about Cafe Cox >>Café Cox is a prime gay pickup joint. Behind the smoked-glass windows men line the walls and appraise the talent.<< Hardly seems "conservative" to me . . . . . .

You don't actually USE a Fodor's Travel Guide, do you? Oh, you silly boy.

Even though I have been posting here for over 8 years and have been quoted in multiple Fodor's guides, I never use them.

I get all my info. on travel from specific Fodorites right here.

If I am looking for a gay venue, I usually post a thread here to find info. I would never rely on some out-of-date guide (so many aren't even updated, just reprinted from year to year).

Time Out, as mentioned above, is a good source of gay info. on a particular city.

Thingorjus,
Patricia Highsmith Fan

Well..you are talking about life threatening places for gay people...and you have looked at a Spain guide. No wonder why you didn't find such an information. There's not such a problem here. You can go wherever you want but if you want a specifically gay scene you won't have to look for it too much. No need for a guide,really.

Of course Tom Ripley is not my real name. The reason why anyone shouldn’t use his/her real name on an Internet chat room should be obvious from the above responses.

Tom Ripley is a literary allusion to another gay traveler.

Kenderina:

You wrote: “Well..you are talking about life threatening places for gay people...and you have looked at a Spain guide.”

You are right and I am duly chastened. I just extrapolated from the few new guides that this is policy now – and a disturbing policy at that.

Yet, gay travelers still need to know a little about the destination. If the single gay traveler goes to Vienna thinking “I’ll just research the gay scene when I get there,” then he is going to be in for an unwelcome surprise when he gets there and finds that there is no gay scene to speak of. He’ll probably see all the building there and then switch plans and head to Prague for the rest of his trip.

PalenQ, you can cancel your screen name etc by clicking your profile link. I think that is perhaps what tom meant.

Tom, I can't give you an answer but I do hope you get one. I agree with what you say, the new guides are not just as comprehensive as previous editions. Perhaps the editor's scissors were used unwisely. I don't know.

Also, it could well be that Fodor's are reaching the stage of thinking that their written guides compliment their website information rather than the other way around. I suppose it is all down to costs these days when it must be cheaper operating a travel website than to print guides.

joe

Proenza Preschooler:

Yes, I am a silly boy. I do (or used to) use the guidebooks. I just like them. I like keeping them with me as I walk around. (I need the maps too!)

You make good points – and I do use the Internet as well. Not so much this site anymore, lest my question – “Where do I find the gay bars in Berlin?” – be met with the usual response: “Why don’t you hang out with everybody else?”

I just hope Fodor’s will change back so I can continue foolishly giving them my money.

Janis J:

I just saw your last response. The reason why it is a bad idea is that it is terribly inefficient. Maybe Fodors.com does identify a few lesbian bars when you click on them, but that is not the same thing as listing them in the book. Also, even the website has rather poor information now.

Also, by pointing out that I should rely on the website rather than the books validates my point. One is more likely to carry a guidebook than a laptop on holiday, and they are much better for spontaneous use.

Who the hell is Bill Reilly? Oh, I've googled him, he's American so no I'm not.

Bigotted, I don't believe so. What I do think is that you get enjoyment from wallowing in the concept that you are in an abused minority.

I have absolutely no interest in your proclivities and you need have no interest in mine.

Yes, I have a couple of Rough Guides, and a couple of Frommers guides as well. Is there something I've missed? Tell me about my 'extracurricular interests'.

My 2008 Fodors Paris Guide has a section on Gay and Lesbian Bars and Clubs.

Otherwise, would a gay man or woman not want to read a guide book that is about a city , rather than who is visiting?
I mean, if an adult male goes to Paris , he doesn't have to be gay or straight to enjoy that city! Monuments and museums and boulevards are not gender/gay/straight specific ..

I think if an area is known to be dangerous, most guide books would publish that, not directing it at gays specifically but because it is a dangerous place.

Perhaps Fodors is just accepting Gay people as the same as all people, figuring we all enjoy the same sights, foods, etc...according to what we can afford more or age specific, rather than gay/straight.

I tend to look for the Good side of things..I would think a company as big and successful as Random House would know what they are doing..they are not going to be offending the gay population purposely.

I liked Tom Ripley, even if he was kind of creepy ...

Proenza_Preschooler

By the way, I’m sure you really are “thin and gorgeous!”

Keep reading! You’re the only one to get the allusion.

Not so much this site anymore, lest my question – “Where do I find the gay bars in Berlin?” – be met with the usual response: “Why don’t you hang out with everybody else?>

but there is no record of you ever asking any questions

this is your first post?

something not computing there

Stfc wrote: “Who the hell is Bill Reilly? Oh, I've googled him, he's American so no I'm not.” Only Bill O’Reilly would try to throw us off the scent like that!

I have no interest in trying to refute your opinions – they speak for themselves.

PalenQ wrote:

“but there is no record of you ever asking any questions

this is your first post?

something not computing there”

One more time – yes, this is a new screen name. I cancelled my old one months ago for reasons already described.

This is my first new post.

Well personally I don't use Fodor's travel guides these days (oops -- sorry, Fodor's! ). So I'm not sure how true the complaint is.

So the gist is that the guides used to have gay & lesbian travel advice, but now they are sanitized. If that's true, I do find this odd -- regardless of whether Fodor's is actually anti-gay.

As mentioned, gay and lesbian travelers are usually perceived to have more dispensable income for travel. It's a good business decision for Fodor's to keep this sort of information (and even expand on it). This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with equality for gays and lesbians. It just makes good business sense.

Anyway, personally I find guidebooks like Time Out or Wallpaper City guides more to my taste. A more traditional guidebook like Frommer's is easily accessible online. (By contrast I found the Fodor's website quite bad personally -- so I normally don't consult the Fodor's website, but obviously I consult this forum.) I look for something different that can give me a slightly different angle. In this sense, the Wallpaper City guides are quite quirky. It's more akin to reading a glossy magazine. I know that Fodor's (or Frommer's) can never be like them.

Good post 111op!

Yes, I did cancel my Fodor’s account a while ago because I got disgusted with people who just wanted to pick fights with other posters and not talk about the realities of travel.

so you say your changed your screen name now because of what? still don't compute to this dolt

When you cancel an account how is this done?

you send fodor's an e-mail saying cancel my screen name?

No you just don't open fodor's anymore and your screen name remains intact in case you want to come back

Thus why did you not return under your own old screen name? That is my question and your answers simply don't respond.

Why not use your old screen name or at least give it to prove that you are indeed a long-time Fodorite.

Oh well what do i care really. You do raise very valid points.

T-R-O-L-L

I would like to see the word Troll banned from Fodor's

the OP makes too many very valid sounding points to be a troll, at least in the context i take it

he/she has well documented it seems the lessening of gay content and makes a thoughtful case

that he/she may have ulterior motives and thus the secrecy of the new name does however raise suspicions of who the post is really aimed at and that to me may be a Fodor's Guidebooks insider airing complains on this forum for their own agenda.

Well, Tom, as a gay man I find your post to be more than ridiculous. Yes, calling Fodor's anti-gay is quite confrontational and you either meant to get a rise out of people or you're quite naive.

I agree that Fodor's might include more on gay night spots (as does Lonely Planet--which I tend to use). You might have mentioned that on a thread here. However, your b*tchy rant only does your cause a disservice.

I've used this site for a long time now. You will find no more tolerant, open-minded community on the web.

Maybe I'm just a self-hating bigot for having these views, however.

Anyway, what's so surprising if someone cancels his Fodor's account completely? There are people who prefer to do that. I have friends who canceled their Facebook accounts completely. Gone -- without a trace. They just felt more comfortable that way. They could have chosen to leave their accounts but not log on, but they chose not to. Surely it's their right.

And after all, Fodor's has been known to ban folks from the forum. So if the poster wants a little privacy, what's the big deal?

I'm failing to understand why this is a "crime."

And in any case, even if the original poster is lying, why is that so bad? I mean, since when do we expect complete honesty and sincerity on the net? I mean, that's very honorable, and I try to be accurate and sincere, but we know that we can't expect that of everyone.

As I said, if the gist of what the poster is saying is true, it doesn't make good business sense for Fodor's. But whether that makes Fodor's "anti-gay" is certainly up for discussion.

Having followed on this forum a couple of years, I tend to think that there's a herd or mob mentality. And if you don't like the message, you shoot the messenger. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but then of course, this is also common for dealings with people -- in real life or on the net.

So I guess then -- if you post, be aware that you can be criticized as well. If your skin is too thin, don't post.

Zeus wrote “T-R-O-L-L”

HA! HA!

I guess Chicken Hawk would have been too inside.

PalenQ:

Joe4212 gave the instructions on how to cancel screen names.

I canceled my old name because it was too close to my real name and I have not been participating in discussions because – as soon as I said something mildly controversial – the personal attacks began, just as they began here (I’m not necessarily indicating you). The old name was too close to my real name. Issues of identity-theft arise. The power of homophobia cannot be underestimated.

I am not giving out my old screen name, but I do not – nor have I ever – worked for Fodor’s. My disappointment stems from my affection for the series and the fact that it is now much worse than it used to be. Maybe they’ll switch back.

I thought gay folks were just like you and me; they're our neighbors, sisters, brothers, etc. I now have been enlightened by this thread that tells me in no uncertain terms their travel planning needs are so vastly different. All this time I presumed they, like me, were interested in sightseeing, shopping, eating at restaurants, visiting museums and the like.

Thanks for the education!

I was not going to weigh in on this thread because IHO it seemed that Tom has a huge gay chip on his shoulder... and I am not remotely homophobic.

After some thought it seems to me that a guide book should help a person navigate a country, city and area. And if a town or area has a large gay population then that should be included in the book.

Cimbrone:

No – I never play the self-hating card. Your points are well-taken.

Didn’t we meet last year at Marienbad?

jnjfraz:

Good post. Maybe I do have too big a gay chip on my shoulder.

Tomripley & Cimbrone -- could you tell me, when the clock struck at midnight, did you meet and leave?

Was it actually Marienbad? Or Karlsbad where you met? Did someone shoot someone else? And what's the secret behind the Nim game?

Pray, tell!

P.S. There used to be a lot more segments from this movie on YouTube, but now I can only find one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38LnAFcORxQ&feature=related

Wow, Tom, glad to see you softening.

Marienbad? Were you wearing Thomas Pink and did you send over a pilsner? I think so!

'The Talented Mr Ripley'. I think not. You are a sad, sad person.

There seems to be one of these ludicrous threads each weekend. You're not travelme in disguise are you?

What I want to know is why Fodor's guides fail to mention how to change a flat tire. I am just going to stop buying guides that fail to provide me with information that I deem so vital to life on the road.

Now that we've established that tom's title was a poor choice, I think he makes a pretty good point. A large segment of the traveling public is gay. In any section of a guidebook on bars and nightclubs, it does strike me as odd not to have a gay and lesbian section for those who want it.

Changing a tire? Not a very convincing point, rogeruktm. Still, it's Fodor's prerogative. They seem to be trying to maintain a more "mainstream image." There are several guidebooks that do better serve those looking for specifically gay venues.

I am a traveler, and I am gay. I do not consider myself a gay traveler. Get the difference? I have no use and never have had, for gay guides that list all the places that are primarily exclusive for gays -- the wild clubs and bars, etc. We stay, play, and eat where all types of people go. But I did always like the idea of a few suggestions of more "main stream" primarily gay or gay friendly establishments, and I liked the general reference to what gays should expect in a particular city. Yes, Fodor's Guides always did that.
Now those helpful hints are gone. I don't buy guides any more anyway, but rely on information on sites like this, so it really doesn't bother me -- but I do see where tomripley is coming from -- regardless of his poorly phrased title.

Yes, you are right! We met in Karlsbad! We went for a swim in the outdoor pool in the snow last winter and then had a couple of Pilsner Urquells. My those Speedos were tight! When will Europe discover board shorts?

Actually Cimbrone, I was never that hard. (Wait, that didn¡¦t sound right. ƒº)

Patrick, you're my kind of Gay!!!

OK, maybe the title was a little bit harsh. And maybe I was waiting for a poster like “stfc,” and when he obligingly came along, I went off.

Yet – apologies for the title aside – I am glad this post is getting attention. I hope it still gets attention when the Fodor’s editors turn review the page. Aside from learning that at least some people resent the sudden disappearance gay travel advice they will learn some unpleasant things about their guidebooks. Namely, that few people on this site actually buy them. I certainly feel as though there is an overall decline in the quality of the books. Even the posters who were trying to deflate my point were doing so by saying that I should consult OTHER sources. Fodor’s is a business, and I’m sure that they want the guidebook-buying public to spend money on their books and not Lonely Planet’s or Time Out’s. Even some of the dedicated Fodorites say they only use the site because it is superior to the books. (Even more distressing – that they believe what the posters say and not the staff writers.) Perhaps Fodor’s is just fazing out the books entirely. If so, that is a bit sad. I do so enjoy throwing one in my travel-on whenever I go anywhere.

A guidebook can't all things to all people, and the thing is, there isn't just ONE gay demographic...

Singles or childless couples in my age group, gay or straight, don't use Fodors guidebooks. Especially not for nightlife advice. Good lord.

On the other hand, I know plenty of aging married gay couples who are in no need of club listings or advice on scenes of any kind. This age group is also probably the one who is far more likely to use an actual published guidebook, and I don't need to point out that this boomer demographic is still the big one being sought out and catered to.

Families were mentioned- I don't know why families and gay/lesbians would be considered mutually exclusive-for the most part families with young children are now headed by parents who are young enough to automatically turn to the internet when looking for specific information. Onviously that includes gay parents.

It sounds to me like your gripe is actually about a dearth of gay nightlife information in Fodors books. No duh. Who relies on a guidebook, any guidebook, for that?

I think the comment/example of Vienna is a little off too. If someone wants lots of action and nightlife when they go away, they should research places that would best fit with that.

If I wanted to spend a lot of time at the ballet, I wouldn't arbitrarily pick a city and then figure I'd research things when I get there, only to discover there are no good companies in that city. I wouldn't depend on the word of Fodors or any other guidebook about ballet, either. Not if ballet were important to me.

I can't help but think that you might be the one who's conservative if you're expecting to get all your needs met from a guidebook (some of the most conservative people I know are super gay, so I never get this "conservative on one side, gay on the other" way of thinking, either)

NeoPatrick:

Yes. What I liked about Fodor’s was that it was an all-around good guidebook PLUS it had the best gay bars listed. It seems like any exclusively gay guidebook (I’m thinking of the Damron series here) is just a list of bathhouses and bad information.

Anyway, what's so surprising if someone cancels his Fodor's account completely? There are people who prefer to do that. I have friends who canceled their Facebook accounts completely. Gone -- without a trace

Just for my information - then if i cancel and old screen name or even present one as per instructions given then are all my posts automatically erased and whole threads, etc.

Just curious to know if this is really possible?

ripley - Sitges in Spain is certainly one gay travel mecca

Slightly off-topic, but the age of solely using guidebooks (whether it's Fodors or not) to plan trips is long gone. With the advent of www, I can't imagine anyone planning a trip with only guidebooks in hand!

I will look at guidebooks to get general ideas (which place I want to go), but even that, I only borrow the guidebooks from my local library! After I decide on my destination, I use info mostly from the internet.

No matter how "updated" a particular guide book is, things change all the time. I never rely on a guide book with opening times or train/bus schedules etc. I always go to the source to gather information.

In any case, I'd be interested to hear from Fodors editors standpoint as to the reason why they got rid of the "gay travel advice" section. Perhaps they got complaints from gay travelers saying that Fodors "single them out" and they are just travelers who are like Patrick here?

For
france lovers, France guide offers a free magazine for the gay tourist:

http://franceshop.jaggedpeak.com/index.jp?edge=shop.getItems

Apres Londee:

You write:

“It sounds to me like your gripe is actually about a dearth of gay nightlife information in Fodors books. No duh. Who relies on a guidebook, any guidebook, for that?”

I used to, for one. I know you can Google “Gay Budapest” and some websites will come up, but they will be of questionable authenticity. For the truth, I always consult Fodor’s, Time Out, or other respectable travel writers first. Yes, you can go to Wikitravel – and yes, it is a surprisingly good website – but it is not vetted, so to speak. I like to spontaneously choose and research new travel destinations. Fodor’s used to be one of my most valuable resources. Not anymore.

“I think the comment/example of Vienna is a little off too. If someone wants lots of action and nightlife when they go away, they should research places that would best fit with that.”

Exactly! Fodor’s was a way to do that. Not anymore! I used Vienna because it is a beautiful city with a lot to see and do during the day. That is important to me as well. I like places with both good nightlife and a lot to see and do during the day. I don’t want to just go to “gay” destinations all the time. Even San Francisco gets boring after a while.

"And maybe I was waiting for a poster like “stfc,” and when he obligingly came along, I went off."

You would have 'gone off' whatever I wrote. I am indeed middle-aged, white, happily-married and straight, but from this you choose to ascertain my opinions. How little you know or understand. You wallow in self-indulgence.

Well, I can certainly understand how it would be annoying for a guidebook to elimate information that you found helpful. But I really doubt it was a decision based on straight vs. gay demographics. It was more likely made based on age and income demographics, which both have to do with the internet.

The very fact that the male gay couple demographic has a higher disposable income means they are more likely to be technologically savvy with laptops and crackberries and 24 hr access to the internet and partipating in travel forums, etc.

And those young enough, or energetic or savvy enough to seek out good nightlife are also highly computer literate.

Anyone with the disposable income to travel, even if only a "once in a liftime trip", has access to a computer and the internet. The catch-all guidebook is going the way of the dodo bird.

I recently got back from Paris and all I used was a Michelin atlas for getting around, a Blue Guide for museums and sightseeing, and my own notes with info culled from the internet, primarily from right here on the fodors boards. Didn't use a fodors or frommers or lonely planet or rough guide or what have you guide book.

Who knows, maybe other stuff will be dropped from fodors books too.

i don't read fodor's as they are generally not available here.

that said, if a guidebook does not aim to cater to the gay segment (and i totally understand that there are very different kinds of gays!), then why should it bother to have little mini-sections about gay 'stuff'? to me that would just be the lip service that you describe. gays still would not like it. i don't really know fodor's guides very well but they do not really aim to cater to the gay scene (nor do they seem to cater to the young, trendy, progressive, university backpackers, green/eco travellers, and many other groups).

complaining about fodor's not being geared toward gays is a little like an old, conservative person complaining that lonely planet or Timeout is too young and hip for them.

i don't think guidebooks should be written to try to cover everyone's tastes. travel is very personal and guidebooks need to cater to certain segments of people.

I don't understand why it's the youth and budget-oriented guidebooks that list gay venues. As others have pointed out, a moneyed, middle-aged gay couple might feel like going to a gay bar, too. So I just think it's foolish of Fodor's not to do as Lonely Planet does and, at the end of a list of 5 or 6 bars, list one or two specifically gay clubs. It wouldn't take much space, and there seems to be a desire for it. I, too, like a comprehensive guide to thrown in my suitcase. I like the web for filling in the gaps.

What a hoot!

I think somebody needs a good one and it isn't a guidebook!

I don't know what happens when you delete your account on Fodor's. There was, however, an article in NYT on how difficult it is to delete your account on Facebook. After the article appeared, Facebook, I think, started to make deletion easier. But it prompted one of my friends to delete his account immediately. I found that amusing, but his words were something like -- I'd better delete now -- there's something fishy when a website makes it so difficult to delete your accounts.

In any case, I doubt that deletion will make all of what you ever wrote disappear. However, that's not the point anyway. It's still entirely plausible that someone may want to delete for whatever reason -- or just assume that deletion gets rid of all prior posts.

I was quite shocked that my Facebook profile appeared in a net search, but I guess I shouldn't be. So right afterwards, I reset my privacy options on Facebook.

Of course, by now you'll probably know that what you write on Fodor's is actually searchable by the internet. This probably isn't a major concern, but if your name is out there and mentioned on Fodor's, and by judicious searching, someone could certainly pull up a lot of info about you (if you happen to post a lot).

Thus I certainly have a lot of respect for privacy, as I realize that the net is not such a benign place.

And by the way, I also agree that there's a lot of information on the web out there about all sorts of special topics. That's also why I don't use guidebooks much these days -- or prefer those that give me a different angle. Certainly I supplement guidebooks with research elsewhere.

However, sometimes you still need to start from a book, and some people prefer to start that way. I can understand the poster's "complaint," but I'm not sure if that makes Fodor's anti-gay.

In any case, a huge disadvantage about the WWW is the lack of a convenient index. If you know what you're looking for and know how to search cleverly, that's great. But not all people have the time or patience to rely on the web solely either.

<All this leads the average homosexual to ask: Where can I go on holiday where I am welcome?>

Funny, Thin doesn't seem to have a problem and travels extensively. Likewise (he's hardly average) my handsome nephew seems able to leave his house and reach his destination without a guide book with specific info for gays!

BTW - the talented Proenza Preschooler is not the only one to recognize the literary reference in your screen name. Patricia Highsmith’s books are very popular and at least two movies have been made based upon her Tom Ripley books.

I do not, however, have any clue if there is a literary reference to the name Proenza Preschooler, but I like it.

JanisJ wrote "If so, then you are either a coward and changed your screen name to post this - OR - you are not telling the truth about being a member for "some time".
Sounds very harsh, Janis. Why are you so quick to criticize others? I find your tome appaulling.

STFC wrote "There seems to be one of these ludicrous threads each weekend. You're not travelme in disguise are you?"

Certainly not, STFC. What's your problem?

I am not gay but I am always suspicious of mainstream books proposing ideas for any one group. Did they hire someone to scope out what would be appropriate for that group? I read Time Out NY weekly and use there travel guides and know they are tuned into many communities including the gay community. They have a history and avowed gay staff members, that would make a difference.

Like every family we have our gay members and friends and they are varied in age, incomes, and interests, so I do not how a general guidebook would make recommednations.

Aduchamp, because some places advertize as being gay friendly. This is good to know if staying at a B&B or a small inn. It seems reasonable that people would want to seek this information.

The problem with Facebook is, even after you completely delete your account every single bit of information still exists and is kept by Facebook. So that stuff is always "out there" even if you think it's been erased.

111op, I'm like your paranoid friend only worse because I'm a luddite and never made an account with facebook in the first place because it seemed fishy to me from day one, lol.

I'm confused. Did tomripley become travelme right before our eyes? Or is travelme just speaking for tomripley?

No, Patrick. Tom is too good of a speller and takes the time to edit properly.
I agree that the title of this post could have been phrased differently. However, I am not Tom.

Duh. I'll put my glasses back on. I missed that the one comment was "you're not travelme in disquise" -- I thought it was simply "you're not in disquise" or something like that, and I couldn't figure out how you knew he wasn't! But you would know he isn't you!

Some good and some not so good comments since I left. I’m off again. One quick point: Giovanna wrote: “Likewise (he's hardly average) my handsome nephew seems able to leave his house and reach his destination without a guide book with specific info for gays!”

All I have to say is: May I have his number?


I'm off again.

The Talented Mr. Ripley (of 4 movies, to be exact)

PS I'm not paranoid - everyone else is just plotting against me.

OKAY - So I pulled out the few old Fodors guides I had and looked at the "Smart Travel Tips" sections. The guides are a 2001 Switzerland and 2004 Paris. Both of them have sections on:

Gay & Lesbian Travel
Children in ___ (name of the destination)
Senior-Citizen Travel
Disabilities & Accessibility

Now I look at the Fodors 2007 England which I borrowed from the library.

Under the Smart Travel Tips, not only there isn't the G&L Travel, they also got rid of the Children section, the Senior Citizen Travel, as well as the Disabilities section.

Based on your theory, Tom Ripley, does that mean Fodors is also

anti-children?
anti-senior citizens?
anti-disabled persons?

To me, it seems like it's a decision on Fodors part to NOT dedicate a specific section anymore to these travelers subgroups.

I just want to know that I will be welcomed, and relatively safe. Some places are not welcoming, some places are definitely not safe for same-sex couples.

Please - This is an obvious attempt to stir the pot over a non-issue. In my book that's the definition of a "troll". If you're a gay dude with a companion, what can a guidebook tell you? If you're single, ask any cab driver where the gay pickup spots are. I don't look in a guidebook if I'm seeking a hooker or nudie bar.

I'm not of your persuasion but I kind of think that we both can appreciate the same buildings, statues, battlefields, castles, shops,restaurants, hotels, etc. Is there a gay way of viewing things that only a gay-oriented guidebook can point out? Heteros don't need special instructions about where they need to be to enjoy Europe.



STFC said it best. I'm getting more than a little fed up with all the "victims" of this world. Everybody seems to want pity. How about those of us with big noses and bald heads? Please feel sorry for us and change the universe to accomodate us.

>>>>>
I just want to know that I will be welcomed, and relatively safe. Some places are not welcoming, some places are definitely not safe for same-sex couples.
>>>>>

i don't think anybody thinks that there is not a need for this information. it's just not realistic to think that all guidebooks (esp ones like fodor's who cater to older conservative travellers) would provide such info.

many restaurants and smaller hotels are also not welcoming to people with children. while some provide info on how welcoming to children they are, not all do...and it is unrealistic to think that guidebooks that do not try to cater to families would make a huge effort to provide this info.

Hey what is the problem covering in a guide book a brief list of restaurants, hotels and cafes that a lot of gays frequent? Or mention gay events that annually take place in a given city? What is the big deal? I cannot get over some of the ignorant comments on this thread!
The problem is that the title could have been phrased differently. However, it certainly brought out some posters' true colours.

Zeus, you're only making a fool of yourself. Tom admitted that his title was intended to stir the pot, so give him credit for that. And to equate a gay bar with a hooker or nudie bar? You're way off the mark there.

Not only singles looking for sex go to gay bars, fyi. And not everyone takes cabs, and not everyone is willing to put their evening's entertainment into the hand of a random cabbie. Perhaps you are, but I'm not.

Your comments about the usual tourist sights make no sense. Neither Tom nor anyone else claimed that he sees these things through gay eyes, so what are you talking about?

And victimization? The title implies a sort of victimization, and Tom backed off that, so maybe you need to move on as well. Unless you're having too good a time on your soapbox getting some things that have nothing to do with this thread off your chest.

How about those of us with big noses and bald heads? Please feel sorry for us and change the universe to accomodate us



Zeus, I'm so sorry you are bald and have big nose but remember, we all have some physical thing or two or three about ourselves we don't like.

Or worse, cigalechanta, some physical thing that doesn't work right. (In my case, my voice.) I don't buy guidebooks, but if I did, I would not look for material in one that directed me to "Quiet spots where you might be heard.)

Hi, M, you've been missed.

BC

Tom, my favorite Ripley is John Malkovich's RIPLEY'S GAME
And, an almost Ripley tale,
Alan Bates's 1964, NOTHING BUT THE BEST

Hi BC, regards from Pastis

My un-needed two cents, but I'm giving them anyway:

If Fodor's wants to get rid of sub-group specialties, figuring people will look on the web, I have no problem with that. I like Irish pubs, for example, in any country, but I don't expect them to always list an Irish pub for me.

That being said, I think it's irresponsible to exclude ANY information about G/L issues in a country, since politically-correct lip-service be damned, we all know there are countries, cities, towns and remote backwaters where gays are openly welcomed, slightly tolerated, vilified, and in danger. As a woman that did all of my early traveling alone, I am always grateful for the politically incorrect "Prepare to have your ass pinched" or "Single women, don't go here" warnings. Fodor's doesn't need to cater to anyone's lifestyle choices, but they do have a responsibility to give potential victims a heads-up. And that goes for blacks and Jews too.

tom - my Rx = a great big glass of get over yourself

travelme - the reference is not literary, but fashion

Apres, I think that Facebook has changed its policy after the NYT article -- though I'm not 100% sure. Anyway, to be 100% sure, the only way is to control the info you put out about yourself on the net in the first place. Which is why I now tell people who contact me on Facebook that I no longer accept friend requests. Personally I find that it's a great social networking tool, and I've had long lost friends contact me. But there's a limit to privacy for me -- just like there's a limit to privacy on Fodor's as well.

I see yk's point, but as I said, perhaps this doesn't make Fodor's anti-gay. But it does seem like a foolish decision on their part.

From the business point of view, I don't find the note on children or the physically challenged (or insert one of your favorite groups here -- perhaps Asians or some other ethnic groups here) that convincing. Children don't have disposable income to travel. But you could argue that their parents may be interested in such a section. However, parents with young kids are probably tied up at home anyway.

I think most people accept that gays and lesbians have more disposable incomes to travel. And actually many cities have taken up on this theme to attract gays and lesbians to visit. And there are tour groups that specifically cater to these groups (have you heard of a tour group solely for parents with children or for the physically challenged -- I'd assume not!).

For Fodor's to back pedal, well, it's a bit strange, and as I said, it doesn't make business sense.

Perhaps there's a flip side of this coin as well. Maybe Fodor's feels the need to sanitize their guidebooks so that even more "conservative" readers will buy them. It's too bad we won't really know what went into the decision making process in the first place.

It's hard to gauge social views of Fodor's readers -- but it's also hard for me to imagine that many will be offended by the inclusion of material of relevance to gays and lesbians. I mean, I was just reading on NYT that there's been a gay kiss (and actually more than one) in the daytime soap "As the World Turns," and California has just overturned its ban on gay marriage. So you would think that in general people are becoming more accepting and liberal.

<All I have to say is: May I have his number?

Sorry tom he's taken. I'm equally proud of his partner.

Write to the editors. We don't edit the books.

"If you're a gay dude with a companion, what can a guidebook tell you?"

What kind of stupid question is that? Perhaps the same thing that a guidebook can tell a straight couple where nice bars or restaurants are. Does the writer of that stupid comment think that gay establishments are all dark back sex rooms or something?

Ooops. Sorry I got carried away. I realize there are no stupid questions.

But frankly if there were, this one would be at the top of the list. The basic premise of the question just threw me so much I'm afraid I lost control.

(have you heard of a tour group solely for parents with children or for the physically challenged -- I'd assume not!)

http://tours.ricksteves.com/tours08/findtours.cfm/rurl/category_ID/190/

A few years ago I spent some time in Amsterdam with a gay friend.
He did not look for gay friendly places in my Fodor's - he just walked into a gay bar, started talking to a few people and got all the info. he was looking for.

Now this should included in all Fodor's guides:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w8Oed7TD60


Thingorjus

Gee, that's hilarious. I hope this thread dies soon.

It won't; but, maybe you will.

Sweet dreams, disco queen!

Thingorjus

Thanks Nessa. I guess I was assuming children as in small children. If I read the Rick Steves link right, the children must be at least 8 years old.

Still I must admit that even that surprised me, but I suppose I shouldn't have been!

That WAS hilarious, especially Pepe (oh my god my glasses!)Thanks for posting that, I needed a good laugh.

Perhaps the problem is Fodors is suffering from this condition?:

http://tinyurl.com/66ucoq