Florence Experts - Traffic violation question

yes - he can appeal. But he'd probably have to go to Florence to do that.

However -- this is very common in Florence and other European cities. Signs are not always that clear, but they are almost certainly there.

The authorities got your neighbor's information from the rental agency. The rental company will (or already has) charged the administrative costs for providing the info. That will probably show on his next cc bill.

He can pay the fine or not, his choice. But it is almost 100% sure he committed the offence.

Ah, the ZTL.

Here is the ZTL map for Florence:

https://ztl.comune.fi.it/tzi/index.jsp

It is common and sometimes the notice don't show up for a year or so. He was caught by camera.

worldinabag, I don't know the answer to your question but I can sympathize. About five years ago, my cousin and I went to Siena and Florence - rented a car. Somehow we got on to a toll road and when we went to get off, we did not have exact change or the ticket - can't remember. Let's face it, we did not even understand what the man in the toll booth was asking. About a year later my cousin received a hefty fine in the mail for that infraction, about 50 euro. She paid, very frustrating but such is the price of travel.

The ZTL signs are a red circle (scroll down to picture). The nearby camera snaps a pic of the license plate (see red arrows on pic).
http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/driving/traffic_cameras_speeding.htm

The ZTL has been in existence for years and this is no news. A tourist who wants to rent a car in a foreign country can be expected to inform him/herself about that country's traffic rules. Bad luck, but I do not think appealing makes any sense. The offence has been committed and basta.

DO NOT PAY!

I have Italian friends who have to pay due to the ease at which the authorities can secure payment. I believe (the last time I checked with our local Italian Consulate in Manchester) that the charging authorities have 364 day to issue the ticket and then haveanother 2 years to recover the debt.

One of the main instruments at the moment is tracing the car to the hire company, obtaining your details from that company ( who may charge up to 100 euros for providing the information). The tickets are then issued, time and time again and eventually recorded delivery.

I am currently sat on two speeding tickets from Elba issued 2 1/2 years ago. The whole island had hardly any speed indication signs and as ever in Italy we simply played survival of the fit on the roads. I received two tickets for 56 and 57 kph in a 50kph area.

Haven't paid them and simply will not - I have been back to Italy - was not jailed on arrival and have not had my credit card charged.

How do they really think they will recover the debt from Australia.

I actively object to paying my fines as

1. I hadn't any indication of what the speed limit was.
2. The cameras are hidden
3. The fines are issued so long after the event - giving no time to correct your driving

In the case of restricted access areas - we were aware of those in Pisa and Florence so avoided them. On a recent visit to Siracusa in Centro Storico was off limits to non-locals - we knew this but the signs were tiny and in Italian. The only way we were able to prevent a fine was the size of the camera cluster which looked strange. I simply braked hard and nearly caused a pile up.

For laws to work and be equitable, they need to be amongst other things, well communiated and facilitate corrective action. Some of Italian traffic fines and neither and strike me as another part of Italian society's scamming.

OK thanks all for your info - the links are very handy!

Markrosy do not take that attitude if you ever visit the Netherlands and plan to return - you will be sent the fine and expected to pay. if you don't it will flag up by your name and if you ever pass through Schiphol you will be expected to pay it.
There are plenty of hidden spped traps here. no need for them to be clearly marked. keep to the speed limits and you won't get a fine. if you understand European road signs then it is fairly easy to work out the speed limit.
There is a real chance that the hire car company will pay the fine eventually and bill the credit card. They are entitled to do that - it is in their T&C which you accept when you hire the car.

markrosy on Nov 6, 09 at 4:45am

As much as you attempt to rationalize or justify it, you are a scofflaw.

Of course speed cameras and others are hidden - what else do you expect?

Since there wasn't a speed listed, I would assume your neighbor drove in the ZTL. Here is a map of the cameras in Florence that snap your license plate when you enter the zone. You may have to zoom in a couple of times to locate the street where your neighbor's violation occurred.
http://news.comune.fi.it/muoversi/servizi.php?tipo=Accessi%20ZTL&servizi=Servizi

FYI - You can add in the speed cameras by checking the appropriate boxes on the left side.

GR8 cheers for that KY

I will just add that the scandal to my knowledge was on speeding and red light cameras - not the ZTL cameras in Florence. My wife got a ticket for running a red light out near the airport, and shortly after the story broke about the scandal with that type of equipment. Driving around the ZTL is different - if they have the photo of your car in the ZTL - well - you were in the ZTL! More here http://www.florence-journal.com/florence/2009/02/traffic-ticket-fraud-in-florence.html
Also a ZTL map with some further explanation here http://www.florence-on-line.com/maps-of-florence/florence-driving-map-ztl.html

BTW - I paid (as a resident) over 1,000 euro worth of ZTL tickets - I thought I could enter on Via dei Benci with my pass, but I was wrong! TOUGH lesson -

InFlorence - over what time scale were the tickets issued and did this give you time to correct your behaviour.

In my view any punishment should be fair and issed on the basis of clear laws whilst being communicated quickly so that the individual breaking that law has time to correct their action.

I am not at all suprised about the red light story - an Italian way of life.

>>>In my view any punishment should be fair and issed on the basis of clear laws whilst being communicated quickly so that the individual breaking that law has time to correct their action.<<<

It's not up to you to decide another countries traffic laws, nor how they enforce them. While you are a guest of another country, you are to abide by their laws. Just because you didn't bother to find out the traffic laws and then violated them, doesn't excuse you breaking the law.

Last year in November I toured Tuscany in a car rental with part of my family. The car was rented in my name. My brother drove the car most of the time and though I have been in Italy many times, I have not driven there nor studied the traffic laws or signs. About a month after we returned to Texas, I found a charge on my credit card from the rental agent. When I called about it, they explained that it was for turning my personal information over to the Italian authorities for a traffic violation they had issued. I was angry with the rental agency and called the cc company. They dealt with the rental people and the charge was removed from my cc. Just last week, I received a citation from the Siena authorities (almost a year to date from our arrival in Italy). Of course, it was written in Italian and I am not good with the language, but I am sure it was issued for an illegal turn around in a non-traffic area of Siena. I remember the incident. Since I am returning to Italy this month, I paid the 108 euro ticket. I was concerned that if I didn't it would somehow come back to haunt me when I enter the country.

IMO, it is the responsibility of the driver to be familiar with traffic signs in whatever country they are driving, but the rental agents could be helpful with this by simply giving the driver a printed copy of the most important ones when the car is picked up...just like giving a map of the area. Not having the speed limit obviously posted is another matter and unfair to any driver. I do agree that it is an easy way for the Italian authorities to make money, especially with the tourist industry as big as it is in Italy. If the same kind of mistake was made by a tourist in Texas, they would most likely be stopped and at the very most, given a warning ticket.

Touring by car is a great way to see places one would otherwise miss if traveling by train or bus. Most of the reason I like to travel is to experience different cultures. That has to include their rules and laws.

Thanks to kybourbon for the links. I will check them out before going to Italy this year.

Ireece68

Very good points and very suprised that you managed to get the hire company's admin fee reversed - since around 18 months ago they re-wrote their contracts. CC companies will not usually get involved if charges are contractually correct. My fines were prior to the change in the way the Italian authorities try to recover the debts.

Is it just possible that the hire companies don't warn you as they can make big bucks out of the admin fines for supplying your data to the police?

Very good point about good policing - The Texan way is the best way. If you going 150mph in a 40 zone get arrested and go to jail. If you are doing 70 in a 40 zone get a ticket no questions asked. If you were doing around 45 in a 40 zone - get a polite advisory talk and go on your way.

Ironically the reason why I was speeding was probably to get out of the way of one of those crazy Italian drivers.

I was very surprised to read about markrosy's "Italian friends who have to pay due to the ease at which the authorities can secure payment." I would love to read more about how the Italians deal with this. I suspect most of you have seen the little cartoon that compares how Italians do things with the way "everybody else" does them. Their attitude toward life (including such things as following rules and the law) is part of why we feel affection for them. But since the little cartoon conforms so much with what I have witnessed in Italy (have you ever waited in line for a bus over there and seen pandemonium break out when the bus arrived?), until I hear more about how the Italians handle this, I will assume that foreign tourists are the only ones who pay these fines. Every posting that recounts an incident like this starts with "I don't know what I did wrong." Yes, there are signs posted at the ztl entrances, but do they check every day to make sure that every sign is intact and not obscured by tree limbs or something else? I feel fairly sure that everyone who gets a ticket for driving in a ztl was, in fact, driving in a ztl. But how many did it on purpose? How many entered the ztl because the sign was covered up, or because it was not visible until it there was no place to turn to avoid entering, or because there were too many confusing signs to read at once in the split second you have before the cars in back of you start zipping around you or in which to avoid a collision with the car heading right for you from the side? It wouldn't be so bad if the rental companies didn't charge so much (usually about 50 euros) for the minute it takes them to query their system and tell the police who was driving their car at the time, or if the fine weren't so stiff (about 100 euros), or if the hotels were more conscientious about registering the cars of their guests. I think they should, in the spirit of hospitality, "cut their guests some slack," and not fine people once they find out the ztl offense was committed by a foreign tourist. After all, the tourist has already paid the exorbitant fee to the rental company, so they're going to be more careful next time. I'm not talking about deliberate infractions like speeding (are there really tourists who drive faster than the Italians?), but just this one offense.