First Visit
Nov 26th, 2004, 11:05 AM
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First Visit
HELP!! First time to Italy. Myself, my wife and two(2) 14 year old girls. Planning on flying out of PIT into Milan on March 22nd in the a.m. and departing out of Rome on March 31st in early p.m.. Would like to avoid car rental, prefer only train or private escort. Looking for best suggestions on what to see and where to stay. Venice, Florence and Rome looks like the best possibility for this timeframe. Can you provide this information or should I go to a local travel agent. Prefer not to do a tour. Thanks in advance for any help.
Sincerely,
Sincerely,
Nov 26th, 2004, 11:24 AM
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We have been to Europe around 25 times. We always drive. It is the most enjoyable way to see the small towns and be on your own.
If you do not want to do a car, get an escort. Trains to me would be a hassle.
We did a trip a few years ago: Arrive Milan and spend 2 nights in Venice. Then on to Florence and that area for 1 week, then end up at Bellagio.
With your schedule I would hit Venice, Florence and Rome. You do not want, nor need a car, in Rome. You will be rushed, but you will be able to see a lot. You can spend the entire trip in one of the cities you have listed and not see all of that city.We tend to move less and spend more quality time in each town as moving hotels and changing towns wastes a lot of time.
Read: BRUNELLESCHI'S DOME, HOW A RENAISSANCE GENIUS REINVENTED ARCHITECTURE by Ross King before you visit Florence. The book is about 165 pages and you will have an entirely new perspective about the cathedral in Florence and how it was constructed.To me, this makes travel fun.
You may be better off going to a travel agent to plan hotels and agenda if you do not want to explore on your own. Have fun, great area!
If you do not want to do a car, get an escort. Trains to me would be a hassle.
We did a trip a few years ago: Arrive Milan and spend 2 nights in Venice. Then on to Florence and that area for 1 week, then end up at Bellagio.
With your schedule I would hit Venice, Florence and Rome. You do not want, nor need a car, in Rome. You will be rushed, but you will be able to see a lot. You can spend the entire trip in one of the cities you have listed and not see all of that city.We tend to move less and spend more quality time in each town as moving hotels and changing towns wastes a lot of time.
Read: BRUNELLESCHI'S DOME, HOW A RENAISSANCE GENIUS REINVENTED ARCHITECTURE by Ross King before you visit Florence. The book is about 165 pages and you will have an entirely new perspective about the cathedral in Florence and how it was constructed.To me, this makes travel fun.
You may be better off going to a travel agent to plan hotels and agenda if you do not want to explore on your own. Have fun, great area!
Nov 26th, 2004, 11:36 AM
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Conventional wisdom says that you have the cart before the horse - - having already secured your trans-atlantic travel without first knowing where you are going or why.
But chances are, you are not <i>quite</i> as helpless as your initial cry suggests...
You have obtained at least one <i>major</i> guidebook (Fodors, Frommers, Rick Stves, Eyewitness Guide, to name a few) from your local public library or bookstore, have you not? While thid forum is excellent, it is NOT a substitute for the 100, 200, 500 or more pages you need to read (or at least skim) to get a sense of the destinations (and reasons to visit them) that are most important to you and your family. I would underscore the importance of getting the girls involved in decision making.
With only nine nights, your key decisions are:
Milan - - one night or none?
After Milan (even if not staying or visiting at all), what destination?
What destination after that (before Rome - - if indeed you want any additional destination before Rome)
When to arrive in Rome - - NOT later than March 28, in my opinion.
Getting between the major cities by train is totally a no-brainer, even though a car between Venice and Rome might be <i>slightly</i> cheaper for four tavelers - - but really, only if you want two nights in less "urban" locations in between (i.e., skip
Florence).
"We" (the regulars, but also the "newbies" of this forum) can assist you in ways that most travel agents (even an army of 'em) could scarcely duplicate.
The more you learn on your own, of course - - the more help you can get here.
Best wishes,
Rex Bickers
Floyds Knobs, Indiana
But chances are, you are not <i>quite</i> as helpless as your initial cry suggests...
You have obtained at least one <i>major</i> guidebook (Fodors, Frommers, Rick Stves, Eyewitness Guide, to name a few) from your local public library or bookstore, have you not? While thid forum is excellent, it is NOT a substitute for the 100, 200, 500 or more pages you need to read (or at least skim) to get a sense of the destinations (and reasons to visit them) that are most important to you and your family. I would underscore the importance of getting the girls involved in decision making.
With only nine nights, your key decisions are:
Milan - - one night or none?
After Milan (even if not staying or visiting at all), what destination?
What destination after that (before Rome - - if indeed you want any additional destination before Rome)
When to arrive in Rome - - NOT later than March 28, in my opinion.
Getting between the major cities by train is totally a no-brainer, even though a car between Venice and Rome might be <i>slightly</i> cheaper for four tavelers - - but really, only if you want two nights in less "urban" locations in between (i.e., skip
Florence).
"We" (the regulars, but also the "newbies" of this forum) can assist you in ways that most travel agents (even an army of 'em) could scarcely duplicate.
The more you learn on your own, of course - - the more help you can get here.
Best wishes,
Rex Bickers
Floyds Knobs, Indiana
Nov 26th, 2004, 11:36 AM
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I agree with you about not renting a car. I never rent a car. But since I do like to get of the beaten track, I have had to resort to tours (very small group tours) for some of my trips, because generally it is not easy to travel from one small town to another by transportation. However, if this is your first trip and you've decided to stick to the three most known cities, you really don't need a car. I think driving on high speed unfamiliar roads, with unfamiliar road manners, would be very stressful, and unless your family is extraordinarily easygoing and compatible, it can be tough to be stuck together in a closed in vehicle for many hours. Traveling by train from one major transportation hub to another is not difficult at all, and you'll be exposed to yet another aspect of Italian culture on the trains.
Your trip is extremely short, and I think you may feel rushed trying to see Venice, Florence, and Rome. Is there a chance that you might be able to fly into Venice or Florence instead of Milan? would you consider limiting this frist trip to just two of the three cities you mentioned as your destinations?
Re what to see, I'd suggest doing some reading in good guidebooks first, and then posting specific questions here. I think guidebooks to speciic regions are better than ones that cover the entire country. You don't have to carry all the books with you; you can, for example, photocopy the pages you will need to take on the trip. The guidebooks that I like best are Cadogan guides and Michelin green guides, but many other guidebooks are useful in different ways.
P.S. I've never found travel agents helpful at all. I'm sure some are helpful, but I just haven't met any who are.
Your trip is extremely short, and I think you may feel rushed trying to see Venice, Florence, and Rome. Is there a chance that you might be able to fly into Venice or Florence instead of Milan? would you consider limiting this frist trip to just two of the three cities you mentioned as your destinations?
Re what to see, I'd suggest doing some reading in good guidebooks first, and then posting specific questions here. I think guidebooks to speciic regions are better than ones that cover the entire country. You don't have to carry all the books with you; you can, for example, photocopy the pages you will need to take on the trip. The guidebooks that I like best are Cadogan guides and Michelin green guides, but many other guidebooks are useful in different ways.
P.S. I've never found travel agents helpful at all. I'm sure some are helpful, but I just haven't met any who are.
Nov 26th, 2004, 11:42 AM
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bill, IMHO Rex and cmt have given you some good thoughts. I would not use a travel agent either.
Have to leave here in a little bit but will check out this thread tomorrow.
And no, please don't do a tour either!!
Have fun thinking of your trip.
Have to leave here in a little bit but will check out this thread tomorrow.
And no, please don't do a tour either!!
Have fun thinking of your trip.
Nov 26th, 2004, 12:39 PM
#6
I always buy my plane tickets first and then figure out what I'm going to do second. I don't mean this as a contradiction to Rex, but more as encouragement for Bill. Into Milan and out of Rome seems a pretty harmless itinerary to plan around.
Nov 26th, 2004, 12:52 PM
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While I enjoy driving in Europe especially when visiting lots of countryside and smaller towns, I can't believe anyone could suggest that trains are MORE of a hassle than driving. Trains in Europe are SO easy -- especially between cities, as opposed to driving in the cities and trying to find your own way, where to park, how to get to the hotel, etc.
I'd strongly suggest you stick to trains and forget hiring a private escort unless you just have more money than you know what to do with. With a total of 9 days, I think sticking with the big three cities you mention is wonderful. And I'd consider doing a day trip from Rome to Orvieto (or stopping in route from Florence to Rome to visit there. It's easy by train and gives you a taste of a smaller hill town. In fact my vote would be for 3 nights in Venice, 3 nights in Florence (arriving in the morning by train from Venice and having that afternoon plus the next two full days, then 4 nights in Rome. If you choose to spend a night in Orvieto I'd deduct than from the stay in Rome, as you'll be able to arrive in Rome fairly early the first day, and then have the better part of three more days there since you aren't leaving until afternoon.
And I agree with suze. There is NOTHING wrong with scheduling your flight since you apparently know you want to go to Italy and you know the dates you need to travel. Now if you suddenly decide you really want to visit Amsterdam along the way, you have a problem, but I suspect that is NOT an issue here.
I'd strongly suggest you stick to trains and forget hiring a private escort unless you just have more money than you know what to do with. With a total of 9 days, I think sticking with the big three cities you mention is wonderful. And I'd consider doing a day trip from Rome to Orvieto (or stopping in route from Florence to Rome to visit there. It's easy by train and gives you a taste of a smaller hill town. In fact my vote would be for 3 nights in Venice, 3 nights in Florence (arriving in the morning by train from Venice and having that afternoon plus the next two full days, then 4 nights in Rome. If you choose to spend a night in Orvieto I'd deduct than from the stay in Rome, as you'll be able to arrive in Rome fairly early the first day, and then have the better part of three more days there since you aren't leaving until afternoon.
And I agree with suze. There is NOTHING wrong with scheduling your flight since you apparently know you want to go to Italy and you know the dates you need to travel. Now if you suddenly decide you really want to visit Amsterdam along the way, you have a problem, but I suspect that is NOT an issue here.
Nov 26th, 2004, 04:19 PM
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Good evening, Billd would follow Patricks suggestions as to the length of stays, would arrive in Milano, and transfer to Milano Centrale for a train to Venice, putting into Venice SL
about mid afternoon, enough time to get to your hotel and get out as soon as you are unpacked. Have an early dinner and then rest for the next day.
Weather in late March should be about 58 for avg. hi, 46, deg f. lo, and 2.5" of rain. Good jacket and poncho!!!
DO NOT miss entering the Pza S. Marco after dark, a view that will remain a
lifetime... Might check into Fodors, Frommers and Venicebanana for additional information... Have used the HOTELS DO POZZI, ALA and LA FENICE in past years and been satisified with them...MOrning train to Firenze, last year used the HOTEL TORRE GUELFA, Rm #15 close to the Ponte Vecchio and
etc...With your time being short would suggest forgoing Orvieto for a future trip and go directly to Rome about an 1.5 hour trip. We had used the HOTEL INTERNAZIONALE a number of times in past years, it is located at the top of the Spanish Steps, last year we changed to a hotel at the bottom of the Steps and that was the HOTEL PIAZZA DI SPAGNA, which we as with the
others was satisified with. Very good ristorante across the street the IL RISTORANTE 34. Last if your departure from FCO is early in the morning have the hotel arrange for a limo to make this transfer, will be reasonable with four persons....
Richard of LaGrange Park, Il..
about mid afternoon, enough time to get to your hotel and get out as soon as you are unpacked. Have an early dinner and then rest for the next day.
Weather in late March should be about 58 for avg. hi, 46, deg f. lo, and 2.5" of rain. Good jacket and poncho!!!
DO NOT miss entering the Pza S. Marco after dark, a view that will remain a
lifetime... Might check into Fodors, Frommers and Venicebanana for additional information... Have used the HOTELS DO POZZI, ALA and LA FENICE in past years and been satisified with them...MOrning train to Firenze, last year used the HOTEL TORRE GUELFA, Rm #15 close to the Ponte Vecchio and
etc...With your time being short would suggest forgoing Orvieto for a future trip and go directly to Rome about an 1.5 hour trip. We had used the HOTEL INTERNAZIONALE a number of times in past years, it is located at the top of the Spanish Steps, last year we changed to a hotel at the bottom of the Steps and that was the HOTEL PIAZZA DI SPAGNA, which we as with the
others was satisified with. Very good ristorante across the street the IL RISTORANTE 34. Last if your departure from FCO is early in the morning have the hotel arrange for a limo to make this transfer, will be reasonable with four persons....
Richard of LaGrange Park, Il..
Nov 26th, 2004, 04:59 PM
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Train travel is wonderful in Italy. I'd go Eurostar first class between destinations. I would go straight to Venice. Stay two nights in Venice. Then to to Florence. You could stay two nights in Florence (or a third night with a day trip to Pisa- your girls will probably get a kick out of seeing the Leaning Tower- or do a trip to San Gimignano for Tuscan hillside experience). Then spend the rest of your time in Rome. There is so much to see there, but for your first trip Venice, Florence, and Rome would be a great view of Italy. Three years back we stayed at the Savoia E Jolanda hotel in Venice. Not super fancy but a short walk from St. Mark's- small room, immaculate, great large bathroom. Have a great trip...I'm off to Rome in a few weeks with my 14 year old daughter.
Nov 26th, 2004, 05:16 PM
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Forgot to add that if you do your own research for the places that you want to visit you should be able to develop your own own "tour itnerary". My favorite books are Fodor's City Pack or Eyewitness Top 10 Travel Guides (for each city you will visit. My favorite guide for maps and information is Knopf Mapguides (I love the Rome guide). Read about all of the places and points of interest- look at the days and times that they are open to make sure they coincide with your visit and plan a daily itinerary from AM to PM including restaurants, tours and site visits, and train travel. Check this website for restaurant recommendations. You can often email ahead of time for dinner reservations or have your hotel make them once you arrive. You can also visit the websites of musuems to make reservations or call the Ufizzi in Florence to reserve entrance (and at the same time book a tour of the Accademia where Michelangelo's David is exhibited). It really isn't difficult at all.
Nov 26th, 2004, 05:33 PM
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I have to respectfully disagree with ole Patrick on the trains versus car.
We have been doing Europe since 1970...mostly by car, some cruises.
The best experiences we still talk about are the small towns or events we discovered while exploring by car. If you can drive in the US, you can drive in Europe. The train will get you from BIG POINT A to BIG POINT B, but you miss all the really neat small points in between.
There is more to Europe than the big Fodor cities....Patrick needs to get a rental car and go see them.For a first timer...go with the trains. Meet their schedule and see the hot spots...you will return to see the real stuff later.
We have been doing Europe since 1970...mostly by car, some cruises.
The best experiences we still talk about are the small towns or events we discovered while exploring by car. If you can drive in the US, you can drive in Europe. The train will get you from BIG POINT A to BIG POINT B, but you miss all the really neat small points in between.
There is more to Europe than the big Fodor cities....Patrick needs to get a rental car and go see them.For a first timer...go with the trains. Meet their schedule and see the hot spots...you will return to see the real stuff later.
Nov 26th, 2004, 06:38 PM
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I am equally enthusiastic about care rental/travel as you are, traveldawg - - but I have to with train for this trip for billd and family.
First off, I believe that - - with rare exceptions - - the traveler's first instinct ought to guide the advice, and for the most part, not be countermanded unless it is a grave mistake. and he says, unambiguously...
"Would like to avoid car rental, prefer only train or private escort."
And even absent that statement, I think that a first trip to Italy can be done with high satisfaction and only use public transportation, essentially only enjoying the "main" cities. Even <i>without</i> departing from the "big three", there are opportunities for experiencing alternatives - - an evening up to Fiesole, a day (bus) trip to Siena, or a stop in (or an excursion to) Orvieto.
A car rental is not necessary in any of these three cases.
And he doesn't want a car rental.
First off, I believe that - - with rare exceptions - - the traveler's first instinct ought to guide the advice, and for the most part, not be countermanded unless it is a grave mistake. and he says, unambiguously...
"Would like to avoid car rental, prefer only train or private escort."
And even absent that statement, I think that a first trip to Italy can be done with high satisfaction and only use public transportation, essentially only enjoying the "main" cities. Even <i>without</i> departing from the "big three", there are opportunities for experiencing alternatives - - an evening up to Fiesole, a day (bus) trip to Siena, or a stop in (or an excursion to) Orvieto.
A car rental is not necessary in any of these three cases.
And he doesn't want a car rental.
Nov 26th, 2004, 07:56 PM
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Well I have to agree with Rex. With this amount of time I can see time "wasted" getting rental car, returning rental car, parking etc. etc.
IMHO trains in Italy are very easy to use. The trip is not until March so there is time to figure out an itineray, make hotel reservations etc.
For sure a rental car is wonderful if one has a longer trip and can really utilize it. But it seems to me that this is not the case Bill with your trip.
I think with you 2 fourteen year old daughters visiting Venice, Florence and Rome is perfect. Again, do not see the need for a travel agent at all and certainly you do not want a tour.
Have a good time planning this trip, you must all be very excited.
And the next trip can be to some other places, because for sure there will be a next trip!
IMHO trains in Italy are very easy to use. The trip is not until March so there is time to figure out an itineray, make hotel reservations etc.
For sure a rental car is wonderful if one has a longer trip and can really utilize it. But it seems to me that this is not the case Bill with your trip.
I think with you 2 fourteen year old daughters visiting Venice, Florence and Rome is perfect. Again, do not see the need for a travel agent at all and certainly you do not want a tour.
Have a good time planning this trip, you must all be very excited.
And the next trip can be to some other places, because for sure there will be a next trip!
Nov 26th, 2004, 10:44 PM
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Anyone who says, "Would like to avoid car rental" should DO SO whether someone says it is "the best way" and so forth and so on or not.
Rail travel, especially to the places are thinking of visiting in Italy, is easy, services are frequent and fast, and IMO is much more hassle-free than renting a car, getting gas, paying for insurance, parking, turning the car in, and, of course WHO is going to be doing the WORK involved with driving while everyone else is glued to the windows and sightseeing?
I somewhat disagree as to your time "cushion" since March is closer than you may realize. Although you probably won't have much, if any, trouble, finding hotels at that time of year I think you should begin finalizing an itinerary now in terms of dates and start looking for places to stay.
Make a plan and then run with it. You can, if you wish, post one of the ubiquitous "Please review my itinerary" posts here but don't wait for the jillion responses some of which can send the undecided and tentative amongst us on a real guilt trip.
Re train travel...it is EASY IF you know what to do and how to do it...ask those sorts of questions soon and have a great trip.
Rail travel, especially to the places are thinking of visiting in Italy, is easy, services are frequent and fast, and IMO is much more hassle-free than renting a car, getting gas, paying for insurance, parking, turning the car in, and, of course WHO is going to be doing the WORK involved with driving while everyone else is glued to the windows and sightseeing?
I somewhat disagree as to your time "cushion" since March is closer than you may realize. Although you probably won't have much, if any, trouble, finding hotels at that time of year I think you should begin finalizing an itinerary now in terms of dates and start looking for places to stay.
Make a plan and then run with it. You can, if you wish, post one of the ubiquitous "Please review my itinerary" posts here but don't wait for the jillion responses some of which can send the undecided and tentative amongst us on a real guilt trip.
Re train travel...it is EASY IF you know what to do and how to do it...ask those sorts of questions soon and have a great trip.
Nov 27th, 2004, 07:29 AM
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Billd,
I would suggest that you get some general information, such as guidebooks or video tapes (our library has a good collection) and have your whole family go over them, then sit down and decide just what you want to see. Some people hate museums and love to tour country villages; others love museums and could care less about semi-abandoned rural locations. Only after you know what your family wants to see should you make plans. If you don't like art, perhaps you would want to skip Florence, for example.
Tourists also disagree on timing. Some like to stay in a base for a long time to get to know it; others like to move every day to a new location. I am in the stay a while crowd, because each move takes up a lot of time packing, checking in, moving, finding the new hotel and checking in, and unpacking; I prefer having more time available by making fewer moves. So from my perspective, seeing three major sites in one week is too much moving, although by returning from your end destination, you have saved a day.
Once you have identified just what you want to see and do, you will be in a much better position to decide where you want to go and how long to stay in each place. Be sure to plan in some free time for things you don't discover until you are there.
I think you will be able to see all you want in comfort by using public transportation. We have never felt the need to rent a car, as we have been able to get anywhere we wanted by train, bus, cable car, or boat, with none of the hassles involved in driving.
I would suggest that you get some general information, such as guidebooks or video tapes (our library has a good collection) and have your whole family go over them, then sit down and decide just what you want to see. Some people hate museums and love to tour country villages; others love museums and could care less about semi-abandoned rural locations. Only after you know what your family wants to see should you make plans. If you don't like art, perhaps you would want to skip Florence, for example.
Tourists also disagree on timing. Some like to stay in a base for a long time to get to know it; others like to move every day to a new location. I am in the stay a while crowd, because each move takes up a lot of time packing, checking in, moving, finding the new hotel and checking in, and unpacking; I prefer having more time available by making fewer moves. So from my perspective, seeing three major sites in one week is too much moving, although by returning from your end destination, you have saved a day.
Once you have identified just what you want to see and do, you will be in a much better position to decide where you want to go and how long to stay in each place. Be sure to plan in some free time for things you don't discover until you are there.
I think you will be able to see all you want in comfort by using public transportation. We have never felt the need to rent a car, as we have been able to get anywhere we wanted by train, bus, cable car, or boat, with none of the hassles involved in driving.
Nov 27th, 2004, 08:47 AM
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"There is more to Europe than the big Fodor cities....Patrick needs to get a rental car and go see them.For a first timer...go with the trains. Meet their schedule and see the hot spots...you will return to see the real stuff later."
Boy am I confused. Isn't this what I said. I have traveled by car and as I said above I love it. In fact we've done several three month car leases and spend months traveling Italy by car. So why would you say I need to get a car and do it? But this poster seems to be saying exactly what you're saying -- he wants to see the big cities first, and certainly train is the best way to see those cities in this short time frame. Yes, like others, this poster will probably want to return to Italy and see more next time and then a car will be the answer!
Now tell me again, how you disagree with me? It seems to me we are saying the same thing.
Boy am I confused. Isn't this what I said. I have traveled by car and as I said above I love it. In fact we've done several three month car leases and spend months traveling Italy by car. So why would you say I need to get a car and do it? But this poster seems to be saying exactly what you're saying -- he wants to see the big cities first, and certainly train is the best way to see those cities in this short time frame. Yes, like others, this poster will probably want to return to Italy and see more next time and then a car will be the answer!
Now tell me again, how you disagree with me? It seems to me we are saying the same thing.
Nov 27th, 2004, 09:17 AM
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We have not yet been to Italy but are planning our first trip for this March 11-26 with our two kids age 9 and 12. When I started planning in June I was totally overwhelmed, but spending time on Fodors, TripAdvisor.com and Slowtrav.com I feel confident in planning this trip on our own. You will find there are several people with very good advice and will find out who they are as you spend more time on the boards.
In Rome we will be staying at the Albergo Cesari (quad room), Locando Orseolo (2 rooms) in Venice, and Tourist House Ghiberti (2 rooms) in Florence. When I started, I just listed all the places people mentioned that sounded interesting and then read about them on TripAdvisor.com as well as the other boards. There are great reviews on all the sites, but Tripadvisor tends to have the most. You will be able to zone in on where you want to stay by reading these. Then start contacting them on the internet or use one of the booking agencies like venere.com. We booked directly with the hotels - it is easy with the internet!! I would suggest that since you will be there at Easter you make your reservations soon.
Then, I agree with everyone else, read, read, read. Read the travel books as well as other posts and trip reports on these websites. It will soon become clear what things you will want to see and do and you can start putting together your itinerary. I know your girls are older but Fodor's Around Rome With Kids will have some great suggestions for them as well.
Include the girls in the planning, my 12 year old daughter has enjoyed reading many of the posts on the sites as well.
Good luck! I know you will enjoy planning as much as I have!
In Rome we will
In Rome we will be staying at the Albergo Cesari (quad room), Locando Orseolo (2 rooms) in Venice, and Tourist House Ghiberti (2 rooms) in Florence. When I started, I just listed all the places people mentioned that sounded interesting and then read about them on TripAdvisor.com as well as the other boards. There are great reviews on all the sites, but Tripadvisor tends to have the most. You will be able to zone in on where you want to stay by reading these. Then start contacting them on the internet or use one of the booking agencies like venere.com. We booked directly with the hotels - it is easy with the internet!! I would suggest that since you will be there at Easter you make your reservations soon.
Then, I agree with everyone else, read, read, read. Read the travel books as well as other posts and trip reports on these websites. It will soon become clear what things you will want to see and do and you can start putting together your itinerary. I know your girls are older but Fodor's Around Rome With Kids will have some great suggestions for them as well.
Include the girls in the planning, my 12 year old daughter has enjoyed reading many of the posts on the sites as well.
Good luck! I know you will enjoy planning as much as I have!
In Rome we will
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