Just a very quick first comment:

11 nights for 5 destinations in Italy is more than difficult - practically impossible. After deducting travel time you'll net less than 1.5 days at each stop.

When you're budgeting for food you need to think beyond meals, such as stopping for a cold drink, ice creams, glasses of wine/beer in cafes. All this adds up. I refill my water bottle from the tap to save money and to be a bit green and not have tons of water bottles in the land fill. I would budget E50 per person per day as a minimum.

You also need to budget for sightseeing admission fees. You can go on museum web sites for pricing but many major museums charge about E10. Have your daughter bring her student card in case she can get a reduced admission rate.

Moving around to a lot of places adds tremendously to the budget so you might want to reduce the number of places you visit.

Your 11 nights (10 days) in Italy is in 5 different locations which is not practical, especially with 3 major cities. You'll only have about 1.5 days in each location when you factor in traveling time. Consider dropping a couple of locations from Italy and spend more time in the locations you choose.

Costs can be better kept under control if you are not constantly changing places. For instance, limit the Italy section to 3 cities max, say Venice 4 nights, Florence 2/3 nights and Rome 4/5 nights.

I really do not understand the craze for the Cinque Terre on this board. OK, it's nice enough, but there is plenty of scenery as good in the US, and Italy abounds in equally pleasant small towns. That's my opinion anyway.

Not sure if you've decided on a final order for this but if, for the sake of argument, it's France to the UK, do consider flying direct from France to Liverpool, which is your furthest point north. Then working your way down to the Cotswolds and London.

That would be more efficient than travelling from the continent to London, going all the way up to Liverpool, just to return to London. Easy Jet, Ryanair among others do cheap flights.

… And as your daughter is a huge Beatles fan its Liverpool John Lennon Airport with the tag line "above us only sky"

as for costs, estimate a budget and double it…

Transportation. I agree with the suggestion of flying easyjet from Paris to Liverpool, probably much cheaper and quicker also than doing that leg by train. Then go to country specific train sites and look at prices, you probably do NOT want a rail pass. Point to point is usually cheaper. In most of the countries, especially Italy, there are numerous trains per day and the price for the same route will be different depending on if you are on a fast or slow train. But sometimes a slower train can cost half as much and only take a short amount of extra time. The raileurope site is good for getting an idea of how long a trip will be but the prices are much less on the countries own sites (trenitalia, etc).

I also agree with the others than you have too many sites in Italy. Three days is enough (well it's never 'enough') in Venice and lodging will be most expensive there so limit that. Also, unless you have a specific reason I would drop Naples. So if you did 3 in Venice and 4 in Rome that would leave 4 for another location. So many good choices of places to base for 4 days and do day trips to smaller towns.

You say you are 'foodies' but I guess it depends on what 'type' of foodie you are. The primary way I keep costs down on trips is by doing a lot of eating picnics and buying things like fresh fruits, breads and cheeses at markets. It's the sit down, wait-service meals that cost a lot. Paninis, crepes, pizza, etc are inexpensive and wonderful. In England, pre-made sandwiches from places like Tesco, Marks & Spencer Food, etc. are wonderful. I would never eat a pre-made sandwich in the US but in England it's a whole different story.

If you click my name you'll bring up trip reports to most of the places you list. I have traveled extensively with my daughter (beginning when she was 16, she's now 28)and we were able to do the number of trips we did by being budget travelers. That said we have never stayed in sketchy hotels of any sort. My trip reports give reviews of all the places we've stayed.

Also, here's my photos, there are galleries of all the places you have on your list. http://www.pbase.com/annforcier

My only warning: be careful your daughter doesn't love it too much - mine ended up doing two studies abroad in college, then returning to work a year in Paris and again to do grad school in England. To say she got the 'travel bug' is a bit of an understatement.

Thanks so much for the good ideas. I will certainly look into flying Paris to Liverpool...makes a lot of sense. If so, how far in advance is practical to book this sort of short/cheap flight?

I know the Italy itinerary is a little crazy, and I know that short stays will not allow for the most enjoyment possible. I am having a terrible time deciding where to cut something out. We planned to take the night train from Venice to Naples to save time. Naples is primarily on the itinerary for Pompeii...plus hotels are cheaper than in Rome.

I think food costs may still be the wildcard of the budget. E50 each per day seems like a lot. That said, better to plan too much than not enough.

Isabel, thanks for your thoughts, and sharing your reports and photos. Given that our travels will closely parallel yours, this is priceless insight!

Miscellaneous thoughts:

In France even with a rail pass you have to pay for a seat reservation.

Hotel breakfasts can be very expensive. Usually you can find a nearby cafe where a coffee and a croissant (or whatever) is much cheaper. But these are not bottomless cups of coffee or ventis. It's just one cup of coffee.

We have our largest meal at lunch. Lunches are cheaper than dinner. And a longer sitdown makes a nice rest for our sore feet. Then we eat lightly at dinner. Often just gelato in Italy.

Would it be possible to move your trip to early summer? Perhaps starting as early as possible in June? That's not yet the high season in some places so rates will be lower. And there will be fewer people. Some of your destinations like Venice, Florence, and the Cinque Terre are very popular and crowded in the summer.

You have an awful lot of places in limited amounts of time and this will definitely drive up your costs. I would reconsider what are must sees so you are better able to focus - have more time actually seeing the sights and enjoying the culture rather than rushing from one place to another.

Italy and Germany are way too rushed, and I think you will be frustrated at all the time sitting on trains versus visiting museums, churches, castles etc.

for lots of good train travel info I always spotlight these IMO fine sites - www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.seat61.com and www.ricksteves.com. For schedules I always use the Wunderbar German Railways site - www.bahn.de. With that much rail travel consider some kind of railpass.

Thanks, PalenQ, for the rail site information. I have already discovered a couple of these, but will explore the rest. It looks like I will have to do a nuts and bolts comparison of railpass versus point to point tickets.

Mimar, unfortunately, our travel dates are dictated by my daughter's school schedule, so we can't leave before 15 June. I was a bit shocked by the hotel prices in Venice and Cinque Terre, even for the more basic accomodations.

>>>I will have to do a nuts and bolts comparison of railpass versus point to point tickets.<<<

You also need to look at budget flights between cities on airlines such as Easy Jet.

>>>We planned to take the night train from Venice to Naples to save time.<<<

Any night train between Venice and Naples would require changing trains somewhere which defeats the purpose.

You need to really rethink this itinerary (too busy). Make a list of arrival/departure times for each city. Add in how long it will take to check out of hotels, get to train stations, length of train trip, transport to new hotel, check-in time, etc. I think you will find you have much more on the road time than you think.

I like to fly into the destination that is the farthest away and get finished with the longest leg of travel (Naples? Munich?). Have you already booked your flights?

Kybourbon, thanks for your input. I will definitely scrutinize the time spent in transit. I will also look into the budget flights for a couple of the hops-I am wondering about how early to book those flights. That said, the Venice to Naples night train only stops in Rome, which is fine...I have to wake up anyway, and it's a short trip to Naples from there. My flights are not yet booked, which is one of the still unknown elements of my budget.

Keep in mind that you will lose 1/2 a day each time you move when you account for checking out, packing, getting to the airport, waiting for the train or plane, travelling, then doing that all over again in reverse in an unfamiliar place. 2 nights somewhere gives you 1 full day, and 2 half days on either side! I would cut your locations so you have at least three nights in each place, if not more, do you spend your time seeing the places you are visiting rather than running from train station to train station with only a brief time actually enjoying the places you are spending alot of money to see.

London deserves 7 days, doing a day trip to the countryside. Check out www.walks.com for ideas.

Try http://www.aitagliapietra.com/ in Venice.

I would drop Naples and cinque Terre and focus on Rome, Florence and Venice in Italy. You really can't do more than 3 places in 11 nights. Pick your top three.

Fly open jaw into Rome and out of London to stop backtracking.

I would drop all 2 night stays...you have clearly felt they don't deserve as much time so leave them out this time and give them to your other locations.

Remember Europe will still be here for your next trip! Don't try to cover everything in one trip and end up 'seeing' very little!

Good luck!

>>>That said, the Venice to Naples night train only stops in Rome, which is fine<<<

It's not a stop. It's a train change. That train doesn't depart until 11:30, makes a dozen stops before arriving Rome at 6:20. Do you really think you would get a night's sleep? That's not even 7 hours on board. A rail pass won't include any sleeping accommodations either. I only see four person couchettes on this route as an option (checked multiple dates). Do you realize you will be sharing with other people?

You also have to factor in your luggage issues for your last day in Venice (and perhaps in other cities). You can only have a day or two in Venice at most. On your last day, you will have to check out of your hotel at 9 or 10 am. You will either have to take your luggage to the train station and put it in storage or see if your hotel will store it. If your hotel stores it, you have to allow time to go back to your hotel that night to retrieve it. Either way, allow plenty of time as lines can be long at luggage storage in the train station also.

Another thing you need to consider is figuring out the logistics in each city. It will take more time than what you think just figuring out transportation to sites, hotels, etc. You will get lost (more than once).

>>>Mimar, unfortunately, our travel dates are dictated by my daughter's school schedule, so we can't leave before 15 June.<<<

While your travel dates may be limited by your daughter's schedule, your number of countries you are attempting to visit are not. I think you need to drop more than the two night locations that jamikins suggests. I think you need to drop a couple of countries (Germany and Netherlands). With only 30 days, that leaves only 10 days each in Italy, France and England. Barely enough time to scratch the surface of those countries.

FYI - A rail pass will not include your seats (mandatory on most trains in Italy) or couchettes on night trains. I'm not sure Rick Steves keeps this list of rail pass supplements entirely up to date.
http://www.ricksteves.com/rail/pdfs/reservations.pdf

ky - I totally agree. I meant to start by cutting and reallocating those nights and then taking a fresh look!

Although you do indeed spend a day each time you change cities, our family never considered the time on a train to be wasted. For us it was an important part of our trip.

For clarity's sake, we will be there for 6 weeks--actually 40 or 41 nights, depending on the flight choices. ky, can you please direct me to where you are seeing all of those stops for the nigth train? I've looked at Bahn and Trenitalia, and in both I see a Friday night ICN train with one change (Rome), and no stops are listed. Am I not looking at the right thing? You're right, I can't imagine sleeping if the train is stopping so much, so I want to be sure about that.

Certainly, I don't want to feel like I am spending more time on trains than doing what we're there to do, but I also thought train time is a good time to rest our feet, collect our thoughts and plans for the next destination, and to journal about the last destination.

I do appreciate the reality checks on my itinerary...but my OP was about budgeting, so please feel free to include tips and advice about that. Also, still would like to know what the practical timing is to book budget flights (i.e. Paris to Liverpool). Thanks!

I figured out how to see the stops...I also saw that there are fast trains available in the day time. Change of plans, which means sleeping another night in Venice (so expensive!). I think I will also switch my Naples nights to Rome, and do Naples as a day trip instead.

For your longer stays in Paris and London, look into renting an apartment as opposed to a hotel room. It will give you more room and cost less. Plus, you can prepare some of your own meals. You might even be able to find apartments for 3-4 night stays, but this will be tougher.

I hear you about the sticker shock in Venice. I had it too. Try the Alloggi Marinella.

Paris to Liverpool with easyjet.com during August 2013 currently range from €40 to €70, and won't become cheaper. They'll begin to rise significantly probably April/May.

Even for this November there's a top price of €290 so you can see they can become expensive. Just keep an eye on the prices every few weeks until you're certain of your dates, and book as early as you can.

Another thing to allow for is jet lag. If you arrive after a long overnight flight, you'll be sleepy and jet-lagged for a day or two. With only 2 nights in Amsterdam, the city will be a blur.

I love riding trains in Europe. In addition to being comfortable, there's all this scenery flowing by the big picture window. So do ride the train as much as you can. But you won't see anything at night.

Note there's a big departure tax on flights out of the UK. You will save money by starting your trip there. The easiest way to get between the UK and the continent is by the Eurostar under the Channel. It goes from London to Paris and Brussels. Last minute tickets are pricey, but if you buy well ahead of time, it's much cheaper. No railpass applies.

One inexpensive option, especially in Italy, is staying in convents. Here's a website to get you started: www.monasterystays.com. There are even some reviews of convents at TripAdvisor.

Back to the dates of your travel. If June 15 is the earliest you can travel, then leave then. There's still some benefit. At least you'll avoid August when all the Europeans travel. Though they usually go to resorts and the beach.

<The easiest way to get between the UK and the continent is by the Eurostar under the Channel.>

not if you want to travel from Paris to Liverpool it isn't. There are more options than St Pancras or Heathrow - there is more to Britain than travelling to or through London which is a pain.

Maricakaz - you have 40 nights which is a wonderful opportunity to do the trip you want - you wont see everything but you can sure see a lot

Budget flights generally are cheaper the earlier you book them, they get more expensive the closer to the date of departure so I always buy my tickets way in advance.

>>>For clarity's sake, we will be there for 6 weeks--actually 40 or 41 nights<<<

Sorry, I counted wrong. You still need to plot out your trip like this:

Day 1 - Depart US
Day 2 - Arrive Munch 10 am, check in hotel (noon?), see ?, sleep Munich.

And so forth. You need to make note of the days of the week. If you only have one full sightseeing day say in Florence and it ends up being on a Monday when many museums are closed, you will need to adjust your itinerary.

>>>ky, can you please direct me to where you are seeing all of those stops for the nigth train?<<<

FYI - Overnight trains often make lots of stops. If you are considering other overnight trains, they also will be making stops. Most overnight trains have single and double sleeping accommodations, but this one doesn't seem to. Stops for this train:

InterCity Notte 771 Venezia S. Lucia 23:30 Roma Termini 06:20

Intermediate stops
Arrival station Arrival time Departure time
Venezia S. Lucia 23:13 23:30
Ve. Mestre 23:40 00:21
Padova 00:41 00:45
Terme Euganee-Abano-Montegrotto
00:53 00:54
Monselice 01:02 01:04
Rovigo 01:17 01:19
Ferrara 01:39 01:41
Bologna Centrale 02:12 02:17
Arezzo 04:21 04:23
Terontola-Cortona 04:41 04:43
Chiusi-Chianciano Terme 05:00 05:02
Roma Termini 06:20

>>>One inexpensive option, especially in Italy, is staying in convents. Here's a website to get you started: www.monasterystays.com. There are even some reviews of convents at TripAdvisor.<<<

Convents and monasteries are good options in Italy if you are on a budget, but I would not use monasterystays to book. They are a reseller and mark-up the prices (as much as 10-15€ per person per night). You will get much better rates if you book directly. I have contact info for many if you are interested (including for Venice). While some have hostel type facilities (bath down the hall), others are more hotel like with private baths, etc. There are over 200 convents in Rome and many have some type of rooms. This is an example of one in Siena with AC, breakfast, no curfew and a couple of minutes walk from the Duomo and Campo (double is 75€):
http://hotelalmadomus.it/

North of Rome in Orvieto (70-80€ for a double):
http://www.monasterosanlodovico.it/English/english.htm

Rome:
http://www.casasantasofia.it/index.php/it/tariffe-della-casa-santa-sofia/

This link has direct contact for many in Rome.
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/travelblogs/654/98408/Hotel+Alternatives+in+Rome?destId=359975

I would look at apartments also for any places you are staying at least 3 days (most won't rent for less than that).

Do not rule out bus travel either. In Italy, it can often be as fast as the train (if you are going to smaller towns), cheaper and drop you in the center where some train stations are not as convenient (such as Siena).

For easyjet flights the cheapest are about six months out, so as soon as they will let you. But I would not do that until you have your international flights. I don't book anything till I have those, and then have mapped out my itinerary. Cause you cannot change easyjet flights. Also, traveling light is a good idea in general but with easyjet it saves you money as they charge to check a bag. Not a deal breaker but it's a bit. But even on trains, etc. you don't want more than one 21" rolling bag and either a day back or large purse. For the easy jet flight you'll need to get that bag into the 21" suitcase - but there are lots of strategies on how to do that.

I would not go to Naples because it is cheaper than Rome. There is no comparison in terms of sights and ambiance, etc. I'm glad I went to Naples, but would not do that at the expense of days in Rome. Rome and Venice are priceless, if they are stretching your budget, then make the third Italy stop a less expensive town. I usually have one or two stays per trip where the lodgings are more than my 'average' while others are less. I can usually manage an average of less than 100 euro for a double. That usually includes breakfast except in France where for some reason breakfast is not included (except in my favorite budget Paris hotel (http://www.hotel-marignan.com/html/pres_a.htm). I agree that if breakfast is not included don't pay extra for it, almost always cheaper by a lot to go to a local cafe.

If Venice is really breaking your budget look into staying in Padua. It's really a nice city itself, plus it's only a half hour from Venice and trains run till late at night (Venice is best early morning and in evening, after the cruise shippers have gone back to the boat, so if you day trip in from Padua arrange to be there early and/or late and not just mid day).

One thing you could consider is staying a whole week in Padua and doing a few day trips into Venice, plus some to Verona, Vicenza, even Bologna. I did that for a week one trip (I had previously been to Venice and stayed in Venice itself) and I loved it, and it was really pretty cheap. Then you could move to Rome for the second week, possibly finding an apartment that would be less than most hotels. You can do Pompeii as a day trip from Rome. Also Orvieto or some other smaller town as a day trip if you are staying for a whole week. But I could probably (definitely) keep myself busy for a week in Rome. The total number of 'places' you would see in two weeks would be the same or even more than if you did four different locations as overnights but you'd cut down on the hotel switching. There are clearly pros and cons to both ways of traveling. Some towns are really wonderful in the evening and overnighting gives you a whole different perspective. But then staying put for a week and doing day trips on some days and sightseeing in the 'home' city on others is very nice too.

BTW - my very first time in Rome I did not really like it - we were there for only 2 nights, in the middle of a 22 day trip that included a lot of 2 night stops. While I wouldn't say I didn't enjoy that trip, I have since been back to Rome three more times and now I love it. I think that two days in mid summer was just not enough time to enjoy it.

Also, re food budget - I always 'average' more like 30 euro as opposed to 50 euro (if breakfast is usually included). Some days we splurge for a nice dinner and then it's 50 or more that day, while other days it's way under that.

as others say your Italy trip is too varied. I'd stay in Mestre (Venice) and catch the bus in every day to see the true Venice. I think trains is the right solution, drop the cinque Terre and just do
Venice, Florence, Rome. If you really have to do Pompeii (or Herculaneum which is better) then stay in Rome, get up horribly early, catch the train to Naples and come back in the day.

If you find Florence too expensive try Lucca and catch the train into town each day. Lucca is very pleasant and there are fewer tourists in town.

The B&B I suggested above is only €100 a night! I would rather pay €100 a night and stay in Venice than stay in Mestre!!!

You are getting tons of good info/advice.

Budget does seem to be one of your major concerns - as is mine usually. I think this point is important . . . The one thing that adds the most to one's costs is too much travel/too many destinations.

All that extra travel will add a LOT of extra €€/££/$$. Plus one of the best ways to save big time especially in major cities, is to stay longer and rent apartments/flats. Not only are the accommodations cheaper - you can save by having some meals in.

So cut back on destinations, save on transport, rent apartments, and end up spending a LOT less over all.

Thanks so much, everyone. I will definitley rent an apartment in Paris and very likely in London--I had actually planned to do that already. Now I will also try to rent an apartment in Rome since I've taken Naples out of the equation.

So if I skip CT, I cound fly out of Rome to southern France--I see a bit of time to be saved by doing so.

I am sure you can find a flight to Nice from Rome.

Be careful about luggage weight restrictions on cheap flights...they are VERY strict and if you are over they charge ALOT so if you are not willing to pack quite light check out regular carriers like BA. We usually find that after all the extra charges on budget airlines that BA or other regular airlines are almost the same price without the stress of major weight restrictions. But you have to book quite far in advance...

I don't usually see cheap flights between Italy and southern France. Try skyscanner.com and whichbudget.com for budget flights.

Don't forget to schedule laundry time unless you find apartments with laundry.

Included breakfasts might not be much (croissant and drink) so I wouldn't count it much towards reducing food allowance.

Trenitalia summer schedules don't start until June (probably the 9th) and won't be loaded online until closer to that time.

Actually easyjet does fly from Rome to Nice. They have daily flights, already listed for next July. It used to be you could only book 6 months ahead but in the last year or so I've seen schedules almost a year in advance. Right now if you booked a Rome to Nice flight for next July the price is about 30€.

Easyjet does not limit luggage by weight. As long as you can lift it overhead it's OK. But it's ONE bag, not a suitcase plus a purse or laptop or whatever. You can wear a jacket and I have seen people getting on easy jet flights wearing an incredible amount of clothing. But in summer I don't usually have that much problem getting it all in one bag. You have to be a little creative.

Breakfasts in Italy and Germany are usually quite substantial - not maybe by some American standards, but usually an assortment of yogurts, fruits, rolls/croissant/etc., cheeses. Last summer at a hotel (under 100€/night) in Milan the breakfast was so substantial you could live for a week off it! France is the exception to decent hotel breakfasts. And in England it can be either 'Full English" which will fill you for hours, or in some budget hotels it's just toast and tea/coffee.

Isabel, easyjet absolutely limits weight that you check in. They may not for carrion but they definitely do for checked baggage!

Breakfasts in Italy can vary greatly. Sometimes it will be croissant and coffee (that's it) and more often in International facilities you can get a more German thing. A few weeks ago I stayed in about 5 hotels in Italy, Breakfast ranged from plum cake and coffee/ croissant and coffee/ Cornflakes with croissant coffee and orange juice/ a range of cereals, fruit, croissant, cheese, ham and an egg. Generally you can do better in a cross between a bar and cake shop.

I am sure your daughter would like the tours of John Lennon's and Paul McCartney's childhood homes (Mendips and 20 Forthlin Rd).

They are National Trust owned and you must book in advance, you can't turn up and stroll in. You get there via a National Trust bus from Albert Docks or Speke Hall. Bob Dylan did the tour recently, but he had to get the bus like everyone else.

>>>Isabel, easyjet absolutely limits weight that you check in. They may not for carrion but they definitely do for checked baggage!<<<

Yes, Easy Jet restricts weight (20kg) for checked luggage.
http://easyjet.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4050/kw//session/L3RpbWUvMTM1MTcwODE1MS9zaWQvRVhRLUs2YWw%3D

They do not restrict by weight for carry on, but they do restrict by size (including wheels/handles) and it is strictly one item only (no carry on plus purse - it's one or the other).
http://easyjet.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4049/kw//session/L3RpbWUvMTM1MTcwODE1MS9zaWQvRVhRLUs2YWw%3D