I suggest you go to Lugo rather than A Coruna.

http://www.galiciaguide.com/Lugo-index.html

Or if not Lugo, then Pontevedra if it is not included in your Estuaries tour

http://www.galiciaguide.com/Pontevedra-index.html

I found Toledo to be a really fascinating place, so much so I would have enjoyed spending a night there. You might not want to spend the night, but with your interest in religion, you might find this particular location in Spain, where Islam, Judaism and Catholicism held a dialogue, will intrigue you. Just like you are annoyed to be hurried by a museum guide, you might not want to be rushed in Toledo. So combining a visit to Toledo with a tour of the Escorial might be too rushed for you.

I don't know if there is Sunday mass at Real Ermita de San Antonio de la Florida, but it is my favorite chapel in Madrid.

http://www.esmadrid.com/en/portal.do?TR=C&IDR=492

If the Temple of Debod is not included on the hop-on, hop-off tour, I recommend tracking it down (or hopping off the bus there if it is).

http://www.madridtourist.info/debod_temple.html

As you plan your sightseeing days, bear in mind that many Spanish towns, including much of Madrid, only come to life later in the day, after 5pm. If you plan to visit a town like Lugo or A Coruna, or Pontevedra, it can be better to go later in the day and stay as far into the night as the train or bus schedule allows to get a sense of the towns.

I would probably fly to Madrid so as not risk losing a night's sleep, but if you know for certain you can sleep on night trains, up to you. Just a guess, but I bet Santiago de Compostela is filled with places to get a laundry done cheaply.

If you are flying internationally, from the States or somewhere as equally distance, then you need to allow time to adjust to the changes in dining time and get over jet lag. Have a lite lunch and then get a few hours rest, getting back up around 8:00 pm (20:00) to explore the city, but on foot. Head back to your hotel before midnight and get a good nights rest. You'll find that unless you're up to some late night partying, Madrid is fairly quite after midnight during the work week, and not much later on weekends.

As far as the rest of your time in Madrid, I recommend you read Maribel's Guides to Madrid (www.maribelsguides.com).

As far as going to Santiago, fly!

I agree with goldenautumn - trying to combine Toledo with El Escorial wouldn't give you enough time in Toledo (which I thought merited 2 full days).

Should be a great trip!

Do you know that the London HOHO bus is also good for the river??Gives you a different look @ Ole London Town. Your trip sounds pretty well thought out. You will have a wondeful time. So many people stress jet lag..You may be lucky(like me) and not experience it and you may probably be hyped up so you won't rest anyway. Coming home seems to be the huge bug bear as far as jet lag goes!!!

You can fly directly to London from SdC with Ryanair...which is not the best airline in the world, or from A Coruña with Vueling. No need to go back to Madrid at all.
The biggest mass of the day in SdC is noon the pilgrims mass.

I should add that getting to and from Bath for a full day will involve you travelling during the peak fare period. Be prepared for a shock at the price of this.

Thanks for all the advice so far. (Keep it coming!)

Would you all recommend a full-day tour to Toledo and then a half-day of El Escorial (and the inevitable Valle de Los Caidos)? This would mean less time in Madrid, but might be worth it.

Regarding the Temple of Debod in Madrid, I believe it is on the HOHO bus route and we are planning to see it for sure.

I was thinking of A Coruña instead of Vigo because it is a shorter train ride, but you are right that Vigo might have more historical interest. (The Rias Bajas tour is supposed to include Pontevedre.)

Regarding travel to or from Santiago, the train is under consideration because it might be fun, not because it would save money or time. The return to Madrid by plane makes most sense. We may end up doing it round trip (Madrid Santiago and back) if the train plan falls through.

We have been pricing our air fare with a "multicity" deal (Atlanta-Madrid-London-Atlanta), so introducing a trip to London directly from Santiago would mean changing the trans-atlantic air carrier and/or switching to "one ways." But it's worth considering in that it might save time/hassle.

Thanks, Rebeirasacra for the point about the mass. Of course one can go to mass every day in Santiago. And the pilgrim's mass must be something to experience.

As far as London and the river goes, we will probably take the Thames boat to Greenwich. I am not sure that is the same boat that is included in the HOHO bus deal. Is it?

Regarding the day trip to Bath, we can schedule it so we don't travel in peak hours unless peak hours run after 10 AM and 8 PM. (My thought was we would have dinner in Bath and head back to London after that.) But thanks for the tip about the fares going up. It's something to include in plans, though sometimes when traveling, you just shrug and live with the cost.

Regarding jet lag and rest, I have been across the pond three times and usually it hasn't hit me hard. But I don't know about my friend, so I figure the first day is for resting and doing some slow sightseeing according to our level of comfort.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I'll probably have more questions as I plan, plan, plan.

> Would you all recommend a full-day tour to Toledo and then a half-day of El Escorial (and the inevitable Valle de Los Caidos)? This would mean less time in Madrid, but might be worth it.

If I understand correctly, your plan currently gives you part of Friday, all Saturday, most of Sunday, and all of Wednesday for Madrid. IMO, that's enough to cover the core attractions with a bit to spare. So yes, I would urge you to consider cutting Madrid by another half day so you have at least a full day in Toledo, rather than trying to cram both Toledo and El Escorial into a single day.

And if you really don't want to cut another half-day from Madrid, you might consider skipping Avila to free up another half-day for Toledo. Not that Avila isn't worth seeing - its just that IMO, Toledo is even more deserving of the time.

The good news is that you'll see some wonderful things no matter what you choose!

BTW, while I understand that the Valley of the Fallen is justifiably wrapped in controversy, I'll admit that I'm glad I saw it. I chose to make the trip in part as a testament to those who built it. I thought it an intriguing structure in a beautiful setting. And I was moved by the many Spaniards who seem to have gone just so they could stamp their feet on Franco's tomb.

And FWIW, I thought Toledo, Avila, and Segovia all very easy to visit on one's own - no need to join a tour unless that's your preference.

Enjoy!

UK rail fares can be found here
http://www.thetrainline.com/
Had a quick peak the cheapest journey for two off peak is around 62 pounds. But the times of travel are restrictive. For me that is not good value for money, especially when compared with Spanish trains.

I like organized tours when I just have a little bit of time available because they take you through the "highlights." I hate organized tours when I have more time because they don't let you see a lot.

As far as the train in England goes, I think if we travel mid-morning and evening (instead of early morning and afternoon) it comes to around 25 pounds per person round trip (Paddington to Bath Spa). That's not too bad (around $40).

Regarding my trip plans in general, the Galicia part is in danger of being cancelled because of the cost/complication of luggage.

I had not realized that the cost of the plane from Madrid to Santiago and back more than doubles if you have to check luggage. The hotel-train is very expensive, and the luggage situation is unclear there also. So unless we decide to travel with only one piece of hand-luggage, we have a problem.

Do people FedEx bags across Europe at reasonable rates? (Maybe the solution is to send our big bags ahead to London and just have hand-luggage for Santiago?)

This is getting confusing. I have just answered you about the Galician section on that thread.

You're going to do Cambridge AND Oxford in a day? Seems difficult to see both in one day.

Do not HOHO in London - geez, what a waste of money and time. Just Tube to where you need to go. If you've been to the Tower twice, then you should be familiar with the Tube. And get the 2for1 deals on Daysoutguide.co.uk with the PAPER travelcards (NOT THE OYSTERCARDS) so you can save $30+ on the Tower (rack rate admission is 20.90 quid per person) and take a general walking tour from London Walks (www.walks.com) for 1/2 price instead of blowing money on a bus that will spend time stuck in traffic while you try to hear Charlie Brown's teacher on the PA system (or in the UK, on the Tannoy). The Cabinet War Rooms and St Paul's are also on the two-fer offers right now.

As for Spain, if you're going to go to Avila, go to Salamanca and not Segovia. Other than the aqueduct, Segovia is not really noteworthy if you're also seeing Toledo (ooh, aqueduct; now when's the next train out?). You go to Toledo first and Segovia is Toledo-lite. You go to Segovia first, and Toledo is Segovia on steroids with more historical value. Salamanca is excellent in its own right and very different from the other two.

Yes, I am going to post only on this thread because my train questions were answered. I really appreciate your explanation, ribeirasacra about the airlines and the links on the other thread.

It does seem that the cost of luggage on Iberia Express roughly doubles the ticket cost. (Round-trip 80 Euros. Luggage as much as 60 Euros if you can't check in online. Maybe as "little" as 30 Euros.)

So I am seriously considering whether shipping things ahead ("parcel post") might not make sense. I have friends who do it here in the states, when they don't want to be cluttered by baggage--they send a box to their hotel which holds it for them. Is that an option in Europe? (I would be shipping between Madrid and London.)

(Reply to Big Russ's comments)

To me the virtue of the HOHO is not that it takes you places but that it gives you an overview of the city and points out places you may want to go. A "panoramic" tour might work as well, except that usually you have to go to one specific place to get on it, while with the HOHO there are lots of places where it stops and you can join the tour. We'll play it by ear. There is no need to buy the HOHO in advance.

Regarding oyster card versus travel card, thanks for the tip. Definitely the 2-for-one deal on some of these places will be worth it.

We are planning on an organized bus tour that goes to Oxford and Cambridge. I've been to both places (spent a summer in Oxford way back when) but my companion hasn't. He just wants a "surface" view so he can visualize the two places better, and the day trip is actually more convenient and no more expensive than going by train.

I always wanted to see Salamanca, but I've seen no tours out of Madrid to Salamanca, and there are several to Avila and Segovia. The question is whether it is worth it to take the train to Salamanca on our own or whether we would do better with an organized tour.

Thanks again for the feedback.

> I always wanted to see Salamanca....

I thought Salamanca deserved at least 2 full days, so IMHO it would make better sense to wait to see it on another trip.

I did NOT think "Segovia ... Toledo-lite." I found Segovia and Toledo sufficiently different to enjoy on the same trip and quite honestly have never considered questioning whether seeing one would affect a decision about seeing the other. (Isn't it wonderful that this forum brings out such different perspectives?) I agree that there is MORE to see in Toledo, but I would not skip Segovia just because I had seen Toledo. I thought them quite different, and each worth visiting for their unique merits.

You might want to check some of the guidebooks that provide lots of high quality photographs of each.

I would not rely on the Spanish postal system. Have you not got a Iberia card. I think you can apply for one then use the book flights without baggage costs.

You don't need a tour to Salamanca. Just go out the door at the airport, cross the street and get on the direct bus..Two hours and a comfortable ride later you are in a magical place--Salamanca. Salamanca is a compact historical university town, small enough to walk and enjoy. Probably the most beautiful plaza major in Spain, very reasonably priced as far as expenses go as it is geared more for the student population than the tourist.

FerrisFar,

Just to clarify a suggestion I made above:

Instead of A Coruna for a day trip, I suggested Lugo. You can read up on Lugo in the link I provided. I've never been to Vigo, but I have heard people say it is quite industrial and its historic center is quite small. I think Lugo would be the most interesting day trip.

Again, the link:

http://www.galiciaguide.com/Lugo-index.html

Regarding your luggage, do hand luggage. If you post on the boards and websites used by the pilgrims to Santiago de Compostela, they can tell you where you can do a laundry so you can pack super-light. In the alternative, book a hotel that will GUARANTEE you same day service on doing a wash. Pricey? Yes, but is it cheaper than checking a bag or shipping? Might be.

<<To me the virtue of the HOHO is not that it takes you places but that it gives you an overview of the city and points out places you may want to go.>>

That's nice. The rack rate is 18-26 quid depending upon the company. That's $28-$42 per person. Take two walking tours and you can still buy a decent lunch.

Information on the 2-for-1 coupons (though over a year old, probably still true):

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/special-2-for-1-days-out-coupon-thread.cfm

SS

Re: Luggage. Given that we will be traveling for three weeks and that the carry on allowance on European flights is so little, I don't know how we could manage to travel with just a carry on apiece. Just taking a second pair of shoes (a must when a lot of walking is involved) will take up 1/4 of an allowed carry-on bag. So it's inevitable that we will have at least one checked bag between us. I know some people could do it, but we wouldn't be comfortable. I usually pack light, but not THAT light.

Re: Vigo versus Lugo. I must confess that I substituted Vigo for Lugo because "Vigo" is a popular brand of Spanish food that I buy fairly often. I will look into Lugo. Thanks for the link, Goldenautumn.

Re: Salamanca-- We would only be able to allow one day for it, if we went at all. Would you all recommend bus or train? We would be going from the center of Madrid, not the airport, and would want to return the same evening.

I need to find out what an Iberia card is, and whether it is open to tourists. (Thanks for the new tip, Ribeirasacra.)

I'll check more into the 2-for-1 coupons (thanks for the link Ssander.) I think I've seen something on the London information for tourists site also.

See next message for updated travel plans.

New Travel Plans/Itinerary

Due to a change in my friends work schedule and the price of the plane ticket across the Atlantic, we are now traveling much later than I wanted--we will be traveling in mid June and returning to the US just before the fourth of July.

Another change in the plan outlined in my original post is that we are now going to be going to Santiago de Compostela before we do anything much in Madrid.

So:

Day 1 --Travel US to Madrid
Day 2 --Stay in Madrid (probably hotel near airport) and rest, probably do some sightseeing in the evening.
Day 3 --Travel to Santiago de Compostela, spend 4 nights in SdeC.
Day 4, 5, 6 Take two tours of the area and a train ride to someplace interesting--Lugo, La Coruna, whatever)
Day 7, travel back to Madrid.
Day 8-12 Tour Madrid and take day trips (guided or on our own) to places like El Escorial, Toledo, Avila, maybe Salamanca, etc.
Day 13 Travel from Madrid to London via Amsterdam (Any tips for Amsterdam airport? I've been in Amsterdam before, but not at the airport.) Sleep in London.
Day 14-20 Enjoy London and nearby areas.
Day 21 Leave London for USA. Sleep at home if all goes well.

The plane tickets for US to Madrid/ Madrid to London/ and London back to US have been purchased, but everything else is somewhat flexible still. Suggestions for things to do and so forth are still welcome.

Thanks.

You might want to check your new plans against opening hours - many places in Spain (and elsewhere!) are closed on Monday, and may be closed on part/all of Sunday as well.

What a missed opportunity. With this reorganisation of the vacation you could have purchased flights from SdC or A Coruña direct to London.
Which airline takes you from Madrid to London via Amsterdam?

Ribeirasacra-- We bought tickets through Delta, and they partner with KLM. (We wanted Delta because Atlanta airport is closest to home.)

We priced the Atlanta-Madrid/Madrid-London (via Amsterdam) and London-Atlanta against options that only included the transatlantic (Atlanta-Madrid and then London-Atlanta)and then fly Santiago directly to London but that actually took us through Madrid again (Iberia) and raised the cost more than we saved by cutting out the Madrid/Amsterdam/London.

We ended up having to change the dates because the ticket prices were going up so fast. Literally, I had entered the credit card number and hit return and they told me that the price had gone up. So we moved the trip another four days to get the lower fare.

KJA -- Good point. We looked at the dates. Our only Monday in Spain is the day slotted for "playing it by ear." (Maybe La Coruna, maybe Lugo, maybe looking up the towns where my grandparents were born, if my brother will find the name in the family papers.) We arrive in Madrid on a Thursday, relax, get somewhat adjusted to the new hemisphere, enjoy some good food, etc. The Friday we travel early to Compostela and get to enjoy the pilgrim city that day. Saturday and Sunday are scheduled for organized tours that leave only on those days. Monday, as I said, is still open, but we aren't aiming for museums or monuments, just the general area. Tuesday we head back to Madrid. The following Monday, we fly out of Madrid to London.

Anyway, thanks for all the comments. Right now I am trying to decide whether we would be better off staying at an airport near the hotel for the night in Madrid before heading to Compostela or whether it would make sense to spend that first night in the city, at the hotel where we have reservations for the rest of the time. (Hotel Preciados--very highly rated on TripAdvisor, and my exchange with them so far has been good.) I was thinking if we could leave our heavy luggage at the hotel, it would save us the hassle of lugging it all the way to Santiago de Compostela and back. What do the rest of you advise?

<chuckle> Just caught a typo. I mean "a hotel near the airport" not an "airport near the hotel" of course.

I vote for doing Toledo on your own, if for no other reason, than you can get a bus from the train station to the Plaza de Zocodover and start walking from there. The organized tours start with a long walk up hill into town first (at least the ones I saw when I was there). Don't miss the Iglesia de San Ildefonso/Iglesia de los Jesuitas, there is a terrific view over Toledo and the countryside from the towers and the reliquary is fascinating.

You mentioned going to Mass. In Madrid, my I suggest Iglesia de Santa Barbara. The Catedral is nice, but BIG. Santa Barbara is impressive on a smaller scale. And when you see the Templo de Debod, I suggest walking over to the Museo Cerralbo. It has a fabulous collection and room decoration.

If you do stay near the Madrid airport, don't stay at the Tryp Diana, unless you get a very, very, very good rate and don't have high expectations.

"they partner with KLM"
So if you are flying with KLM please confirm with who you have booked that you have luggage which is checked in.
http://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/campaigns/baggage/index.htm?wt.seg_3=HP_wide_1stbag
On my posting of Feb 4th I wrote about which airlines fly directly between Galician and London.
I wonder where your family come from.
When you do post about this please add as much information as possible. The reason why I ask is that in Galicia village names are often repeated. For example: Near where I live on one side of the river is a village with a name, and just a few km away on the other side of he river is a village with the same name. A village can also be very very small. As soon as there are 2 houses it is a village.
Galicia is the Comunidad autónoma in Spain with the most villages