PalenqueBob

According to a NYTimes article i just read talking about Spain's current PM being a real Socialist and not a pseudo-Socialists as previous Socialists Spanish PMs had been, the new guy in first removing Spanish forces from the coalition of the willing in Iraq and now sanctioning gay marriage and easing restrictions on divorce - in effect a frontal attack on the conservative Catholic heirarchy that had the country in a stranglehold in France days and after---

anway this writer said that 'surveys show the Spanish to be Europe's most left-leaning society'

surprised me a bit - leaving the Dutch, Scandinavians, etc. in the dust?

Cimbrone

My impression has been that the Spanish are leftist in a more self-conscious way than the Scandinavians. Having dealt with Franco for so many years, it is understandable that there has been a backlash.

The Scandinavians are more organically socialist, if you will, clinging to their welfare state, but eschewing some of the other leftist issues that one might expect to go along with it, but which really needn't.

This is what I've gathered from my reading. I've never spent significant time in any of these countries.

Cimbrone

"Welfare state" was poor phrasing. "Social Programs" would be more accurate.

kerouac

Interesting question. For different matters, I think that a number of European countries can each claim to be the most left-leaning in various specific fields. However, it may be true that Spain is currently the most overall socialist regime in Western Europe.
Individual definitions of "socialism" can of course modify this perception.

mikemo

Throw a dart!
Viva Mexico for electing a rational Harvard educated Presisdente.
M

Pausanias

Is he really going to turn over the means of production to the workers? No? Then he ain't a socialist.

ira

>Is he really going to turn over the means of production to the workers? No? Then he ain't a socialist.<

He could be an Anarcho-Syndicalist.

By "turn over" do you mean confiscate or purchase?

flanneruk

For steadfast refusal to understand the lessons of the past 20 years, Scotland has to take the prize.

Since it's also, since devolution, managed to drive its economy into near-permanent recession (which the Spaniards certainly haven't), it has to win PalQ's award.

Brazilnut

Poor Mexico!

Dukey

I honestly fail to see what is "socialist" about pulling troops out of what many have come to believe is an "unwinnable" war; the sanctioning of legalized gay relationships, and the easing of restrictions on legalized unions (divorce) between straight people.

Pausanias

"By "turn over" do you mean confiscate or purchase?"

I think the best socialists confiscate, then offer jobs to the former owners if they are competent to hold one. In Spain though, I believe the tradition is to either shoot theml or force them to run a gauntlet to the cliffs. At least they get away from the tolling of the bells.

alanRow

<<< I honestly fail to see what is "socialist" about pulling troops out of what many have come to believe is an "unwinnable" war; the sanctioning of legalized gay relationships, and the easing of restrictions on legalized unions (divorce) between straight people. >>>

Well as the Righteous are against pulling troops out of anywhere, against Homosexuality and think women should Obey Their Master it follows that anyone who doesn't agree with them is a Socialist - and probably a Commie Islamist Treehugger to boot

Padraig

Does it seem likely that discussion of this question will have a bearing on anybody's travel plans?

I suppose some people might be thinking of travelling with a force of troops going in to liberate some oppressed people from their democratic choice of government.

alanRow

Some people will presumably not travel to countries with bad human rights records - like those who arrest people and lock them up without trial

mikemo

Mexico is anything but poor.
Since his inauguration on 1 Dec, Presidente Calderon has given hope to many which we expats fully suppoort.
M

Padraig

alanRow wrote: "Some people will presumably not travel to countries with bad human rights records - like those who arrest people and lock them up without trial"

I don't know if that is offered as an answer to my question. I would point out that some left wing governments have good human rights records and that some have not. I can say exactly the same about right-wing governments. Respect for human rights does not seem to divide on the same line as views on economics. If we are here to discuss travel, it might be more appropriate to consider human rights issues than economic policy issues.

There are some places that I would not travel to because they are unsafe; others because they seem uninteresting to me; and yet others because their human rights policies offend my sense of decency. Don't bother asking for a list: I won't give one, because it would only contribute to a fractious debate, and I have better ways of wasting my time.

Neil_Oz

"Mexico is anything but poor"

How about very poor?
Per capita GDP: $10,000 (USA $41,600) Below poverty line: 40% (USA 12%)

Perhaps the protection of civil liberties shouldn't be the preserve of left-of-centre governments, but these days it mostly is. Judging by its treatment of Australia's sole detainee in Guantanamo Bay, who's been held in solitary without charge for four years, my right-wing government seems to think that Magna Carta, habeus corpus and the Geneva Conventions are frivolous luxuries.

PalenqueBob

<Some people will presumably not travel to countries with bad human rights records - like those who arrest people and lock them up without trial>

You are talking about the US of A, right?

sansman

I love how ignorant the New York Times is about anything outside the US. Being a Nyer transplanted to Europe, I always laugh when I read there stupid view on things European.

sansman

forgive my stupid spelling