European Sampler, 4 weeks, 6 countries?

Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 12:13 AM
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European Sampler, 4 weeks, 6 countries?

Hello! Next summer (2018) my daughter(20), daughter-in-law(24), and I(old body, young mind) are planning a trip to Europe. This is the first real substantial international vacation for any of us, and we're trying to do it on a budget, getting the most bang for our bucks. In reading posts here, I see the main theme of advice is to plan for fewer locations with more time in each. Our wish list looks like this -
Scotland, England, France, Amsterdam, Denmark, Germany - but I know many of you are going to suggest paring that down. That's why I'm here. Our main focus will be Vistas & views, with some history & museums thrown in. More cultural experiences & fewer touristy things. I have this idea of Europe as being a great hub for cheap travel - trains, busses, and bicycles - but maybe I've seen too many movies.
Anyway,we're starting our planning long in advance to help find our way around the obstacles and discover fun, cheap ways to enjoy the whole experience. Our main lodgings will be AirBnB's. Lengthy travel is my biggest worry, financially speaking.

These are our "must see"s... London, Paris, Amsterdam, Dachau, and somewhere else as yet undetermined in Germany, as my son will be deployed there during the time of our vacation.

I appreciate and cherish any and all advice (even criticisms) from you wonderful seasoned travelers!

Pam
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 12:42 AM
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Budget and the cities of London,Paris and Amsterdam don't go well together. Three of the most expensive cities in Europe.

The only upside is you can take the train from London to Paris and then on to Amsterdam

Berlin is much more economical and has quite a few high quality museums
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 01:21 AM
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I must admit that I disagree with Traveler_Nick, in that I think you can find ways to travel on a budget in London, Paris, and Amsterdam – even if it can pose some challenges. But you are planning well in advance, and while these aren’t the cheapest locations in Europe (in terms of AVERAGE costs), they are by NO means among the MOST costly.

I think you are wise to begin planning this far in advance and to be focused on how to limit your wish list. That’s always a hard process, and trust me, any experienced travel knows how hard that can be!

I would suggest one tweak to your “must see” list – because Dachau is so close to Munich, consider including Munich as a corrolary. So you’ve got London, Paris, Amsterdam, Munich / Dachau, and one other place in Germany, and you’ve got 4 weeks with which to work.

IMO, this list of cities could easily fill your time. Just for to illustrate, that could be 7 nights in London and Paris (say 5 days for each, 1 day for a day trip from each, 1 day for transportation for each transition); 5 nights in Amsterdam and Munich (3 days for each, 1 day for a day trip from each, 1 day for transportation for each transition) + a few days with your son, plus your travel days to and from Europe.

BUT it really depends on what YOU want to see and do.

Here's what I recommend: Get some good guidebooks (or spend some time with a few in your local library) and plot your wish list on a calendar. Try to get a really good handle on how much time you want in your major stops – London and Paris in particular. Each time you propose to change locations, pencil in your transportation, add some time on either side (for getting to/from your lodging, checking in/out, packing/unpacking, getting oriented, etc.). (Each change of location can be "costly" as it is time that you will not have to see or do anything.)

It might help if the 3 of you (and/or anyone else who might join you) can agree on one very basic question: Is your goal to "sample" each of these places, or is your goal to see your highest priorities in each of them? IME, that's where things get really tricky....

And here’s another idea: Divide and conquer! One of you researches the UK (London and Scotland), another studies (say) France and Amsterdam, and the other looks at Denmark & Germany (just for example), and then you come together and rule a few places in/out and switch off to do further research on the remaining question marks.

If you can’t get an anchor on the specific location of your son’s deployment, try to get a sense of WHEN you would be able to see him, and then consider booking into London and out of Munich or vice versa, depending on when you would be most likely to be able to see him.

Definitely plan on trains and buses. And meals of bread and cheese and fruit and veggies are a great way to keep costs down, but be sure to give yourselves a few REAL meals in a trip of a month’s length.

Hope that helps! I’ll look forward to hearing how your plans progress.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 01:39 AM
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The pound is plummeting, so I'd keep London on the list.

Your most expensive destination is Paris, because you won't be able to use AirBnb there.

For Amsterdam, bear in mind that the Netherlands' fabulous train network means you can stay in a neighboring town of great interest and yet visit Amsterdam very easily. In fact, if "vistas and views" are so doubly important, and you want cultural immersion over museums, give a lot of considering to staying in Utrecht, and visiting Amsterdam from there.

Munich is a great airport hub, so you should be able to fit Dachau into your trip quite easily, as well getting to wherever your son will be.

But I think your priority right now should be to figure out what you want to see and do in Paris & how much time you need there, and how much that will cost you. Then I think it will become clearer how to deal with the rest of the trip. I would also see if you can figure out what might be the cheapest air fare. The website Flyer Talk might have a lot of tips for you. The obvious guesses might not be the cheapest in reality -- but it really depends on what's flying in and out the nearest airport to wherever you live.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 01:49 AM
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Can I say that in your research look at all of the Netherlands not just Amsterdam. There is a whole country here which is very different to Amsterdam.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 01:57 AM
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For cheap accommodation in London, look at University halls of residence - they are empty of students from about mid-june to beg September so if your travel dates are during that time, that may save you some money.

http://www.universityrooms.com/en/ci...0aAsixEALw_wcB

Also look for 2 for 1 deals on attractions like the Tower of London etc - you need to buy a railway ticket [not underground] to qualify but after that, you're in business.

https://www.daysoutguide.co.uk/2for1-london

Overall I agree that you need to be disciplined in what you try to see - an endless diet of cities will not give you many vistas and views. For that you need to get out into the countryside, which might well prove cheaper than cities too. Good luck with your planning.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 02:52 AM
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Discipline is everything.

great advice above

Most British museums are free

Eat and drink as the locals do, so, for example in France drink the "pichet" wine and the "robinet" water rather than the expensive bottled water and bottled wine. In the UK find out about lunch time sandwiches from say M&S or Greggs. Avoid International brands, sugary drinks etc.

Generally ethnic restaurants and vegetarian restaurants give you the best bang for your buck.

One thing that will surprise you is that restaurant meal sizes may be smaller than you are used to. Similarly there is no such concept as a bottomless coffee pot etc etc.

I'd read up on seat61.com to understand trains and how to get the best deals
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 03:43 AM
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www.seat61.com as suggested is essential for all things about trains.
www.skyscanner.com for no-frills, one-way air fares.
Moving around a lot costs money so you have already come to grips with the idea of slowing down.
A few other ideas: Eat your main meal at noon. The fixed-price menu will offer fewer choices than in the evening but at more economical prices. Coffee is costly in that cute corner bistro and priced three ways: cheapest standing at the bar, extra to sit down, even more to sit on the terrace. So sip slowly, which applies to beer/wine too. Prepared meals are commonly found in department stores to take home for the evening, or from the local equivalent of a deli.
One more: Arrange your trans-Atlantic flight to fly into one city and home from another, using the multi-destination search function on most agency and airline sites.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 04:10 AM
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One other caution: You're correct to spot that here "the main theme of advice is to plan for fewer locations with more time in each" but be aware that this might mean a more expensive 4 week trip. When this advice is aimed at people trying to see 6 countries in 10 days with little lead time in planning, those travelers inevitably need to pony up for extra plane flights & fast trains. But you won't save money if you spend longer time in expensive locations.

I've seen trip reports here where people parked themselves in fairly expensive cities -- where the costs of food & lodging are much higher than in smaller towns in the same countries. They saw everything they wanted to see in the city within 2 or 3 days and spent the rest of their time on trains, going to and from small town sightseeing, back to the same city every night. For groups of 3 or 4 they were spending any much a 35e to 60e per day on train tickets, plus their nightly hotel costs + restaurant bills were easily 20e to 40e higher than if they had simply checked out of the city when they were through with what they wanted to see, picked up their suitcases and gone to a smaller town.

All that really matters in the end is that they enjoyed their trip, but there is nothing automatically thrifty about restricting yourself to fewer destinations. With 4 weeks, you have the luxury of time that won't force you to opt for expensive transportation in order to move around quickly. You needn't pay for taxis, planes & the fastest trains to make your 4 week itinerary work. If you don't like changing lodgngs, don't. But that's a personal choice and the insistence that multiple destinations is a no-no for everybody doesn't hold up in reality for millions of happy travelers to Europe.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 04:10 AM
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For trains yes www.seat61.com is great and I also always recommend a look at www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com (superb online European Planning & Rail Guide for lots of suggested rail itineraries in countries.)
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 06:27 AM
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Agree with ann's suggestion about university accommodation - I stay in the LSE dorms if I am in London during university vacations:

http://www.lsevacations.co.uk/Home.asp

Lots of wonderful free museums in London, and with three of you you can save some money with 2-for-1 vouchers - do a search here.

If your lodging includes a full English breakfast the advice to eat your main meal at lunch won't work - I usually have a sandwich at a Pret a Manger - note that it is cheaper to do take out ("to go") as you pay less tax. Picnic! Staying in LSE's super-central Grosvenor House I get a kitchen and can pick up groceries at the M&S nearby.

I highly recommend reading Rick Steves' "Europe through the Back Door" and "The Rough Guide to First Time Europe".
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 06:30 AM
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In general I agree with the above advice. From someone living in Austria and *always* (or at least it seems that way) planning one holiday after another, basing in one location does not always equate to less expensive travel. An apartment in a great location may allow for preparing breakfast and dinner and lower lodging costs, but those charges may be offset with travel costs for day trips.

There are so many other questions to consider, as well. I will use Vienna, where we live, as an example, though I am aware the city is not on your list:

How do you define, "cultural experiences?" Here in Vienna that can mean anything from a €3,80 Melange at an outdoor cafe to a €125 opera ticket.

"Vista Views" can be the equivalent of a €2,40 transit ticket to the top of Kahlenberg for panoramas over the city, followed by a walk down through the vineyards to a heuriger (major "cultural experience"). And so forth.

Best to set aside an afternoon where everyone gets together with their "Bucket Lists" as well as guidebooks; and access to projected transportation and lodging costs.

Happy Planning!
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 06:30 AM
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Regarding researching more of the Netherlands than just Amsterdam. Just visited and have to say that I enjoyed staying in Delft, Lisse and Haarlem more than Amsterdam. Amsterdam was for the museums mainly. The smaller towns were for scenery and once in a lifetime sights such as windmills and tulips! Had really great food everywhere and yes the trans system is excellent.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 06:32 AM
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I do have one question. Does it HAVE to be summer? Its the most crowded and expensive time to visit. To say nothing of heat and humidity. Have you considered spring or fall?
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 09:07 AM
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since you all are under 26 investigate the Eurail Youthpasses - 2nd class vs 1st cl for 'adults' but much cheaper and same other benefits.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 09:17 AM
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You mention Scotland but apparently it fell out of your 'musts'?

Two weeks in the UK (London and some of England), a week divided between Paris and Amsterdam, a week or two in Germany -- gives you a week to play with. If you do want to fit in Scotland - that week could be spent there. Or add some more time to France.

>>since you all are under 26
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 11:33 AM
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>

Waiting to see where a 26 or under woman has a 20-year old daughter and a son who's presumably older (considering the DIL is 24). Even the most backwards humans haven't pulled that off.

To the OP: what is ON A BUDGET to you? Everyone is on a budget, whether it's you or a Russian petrogarch. The question is what are your limits? The other question is whether you're willing to give up location for price by staying outside the city centers and traveling in on public transit.

You can't airbnb in Paris - as stated before. Any rental is likely illegal, which means you could book it, show up, and have no place to stay and no recourse because illegal contracts are not enforceable by the victim of the breach.

Denmark (and the other Scandinavian countries and Finland) is more expensive than much of the rest of Europe, especially for daily needs like food.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 11:50 AM
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There are many reasonable, clean central hotels in Paris, quite a few with 3-bed rooms. An idea of what you want to spend per night would help.

You initially mention Scotland then it sort of gets put aside. This is probably intuitive but to maximize time and minimize cost, it usually makes sense to fly to your furthest point and home from nearest or vice versa. Saves doubling back. Something to consider.

Some museum fees can add up so do research ahead. As mentioned, most of the top museums in London are free. There are plenty of low cost food options in all the cities you're considering from grocery stores, bakeries, street food, pubs, cafés, etc. Restaurants often post menus so you can decide before you commit.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 12:18 PM
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One more thing to consider: Do any of you have hotel points? My sweetie and I spent 10 days in Paris for free using Marriott points. Frequent flier miles can also help with air fares. But in my experience, ff miles have gotten harder to spend and hotel points easier to spend.

Also, now is the time to think about how you will pay for things on your trip. You will (maybe each of you) want a credit card that does not charge for foreign exchange. For most credit cards, the current surcharge for foreign exchange is 3%, but there are many cards that charge nothing. Look at a local Credit union or smaller bank or look at the many affinity cards from Chase. Often, a bank will offer both cards that do and do not charge for foreign exchange. You also want to be able to access money from your bank account via an ATM in each country you visit. If you bank with one of the big banks in the US, you will likely be charged 3% for foreign exchange plus $5 per withdrawal. As above, smaller banks and credit unions often offer a much better deal, maybe no charge for use of an ATM plus only 1% on foreign exchange is not uncommon. But you will have to shop for this account. Also, brokerage accounts often offer an ATM card that has no foreign exchange charges, and mine even reimburses me for any ATM fees, which you likely will not encounter in Europe if you use bank ATMs and no ATMs owned, for instance, by Travelex.

As you can see, credit cards and ATMs can eat up a fair amount of money if you aren't careful. Or, they can reward you with points or miles that can help defray the cost of your trip.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 01:16 PM
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airbnb says Paris is its top place for folks using the service and the thousands of listings are not all likely to be illegal but 60-70% may be - it's a complex issue and BigRuss is right to warn folks - read these articles before booking:

https://bonjourparis.com/apartments/...-rental-legal/

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2...legal-listings

http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/20...airbnb-renters
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