Europe Trains - Economy or Comfort

Old Apr 5th, 2015, 04:40 PM
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Europe Trains - Economy or Comfort

Would you chose economy or comfort seats from London to Paris and around France, Switzerland and Italy and why?
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Old Apr 5th, 2015, 04:52 PM
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I generally book the quiet car "silenzio" on Italian fast trains, because I like the quiet, and otherwise the cars can be filled with people loudly talking to each other or on cell phones. However, only a small number of trains in italy are fast trains, so the rest of the time I just buy whatever. But for any train trip anywhere longer than an hour, I get the most comfortable seats available. I am very tall.
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Old Apr 5th, 2015, 07:39 PM
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It used to be that second class was not always very comfortable. But that ended years ago. There is more room in first class, but second class is much better than it used to be. While I have never taken it, the train from London to Paris is of a recent enough vintage that it should be roomy enough even in second class. Trains have not started squeezing passengers like airlines.
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Old Apr 5th, 2015, 07:41 PM
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First of all, there is no such thing as 'economy' and 'comfort' classes, I can tell that you're using raileurope.com who have made these terms up for the US market. They are not the correct terms used here in Europe, by any actual rail operator.

Eurostar from London to Paris has standard (2nd class), standard premier (leisure 1st class, cold meal & wine included) and business premier (business first class, hot tray meal & wine included, with lounge access and full-flex megabucks tickets).

Buy tickets direct from them at www.eurostar.com and read up on the difference between the classes with photos at http://www.seat61.com/London-to-Paris-by-train.htm

French & Swiss trains have 1st & 2nd class. Book French trains at www.capitainetrain.com so you (a) see all the cheapest prices, (b) pay no added fees, just the fare you see and (c) get a full choice of seating types, including top or bottom deck on double-decker TGV Duplex (I always recommend an upstairs seat for the best views) and forward-facing seats on those TGV routes equipped to allow this to be specified. Check Swiss prices at www.sbb.ch - although as fares are fixed and no reservation necessary, you can just buy Swiss domestic tickets at the station as you go.

Italian trains usually have 1st & 2nd class, but Trenitalia's Milan-Florence-Rome-Naples 'Frecciarossas' have four classs, standard, premium, business and executive - see http://www.seat61.com/frecciarossa.htm for photos & explanation of these four classes. Book these at www.trenitalia.com - it's also worth checking high-speed competitor www.italotreno.it for the Milan/Venice-Florence-Rome-Naples corridor, and their trains have three classes, Smart (2nd), Prima (1st) and Club (premium 1st). In fact four, as there's often Smart XL, which is Prima seating without the complimentary drinks.

In general, on most European long-distance trains, 2nd class seats are arranged 2+2 across the car width, 1st class seats 2+1, so you get more elbow room as well as leg room in 1st class. More laptops tapping, fewer families with kids. Both have plenty of room for luggage, this should not be a key factor.

But your default assumption is that seat comfort is the only extra you get in 1st class. No free limo transfers or champagne welcomes served by natty masseuses. You just pay more for a nicer seat in a quieter environment.

The exceptions are a handful of high-speed trains such as Thalys, Eurostar & TGV-Lyria where 1st class does include food of some sort (snack or tray meal) and drinks of some sort, served at your seat.

For most of us here in Europe, 2nd class is the norm, 1st class is the way we go when the Company is paying. 2nd class is absolutely fine - very few peasants and chickens these days ;0)

However, first class can be an affordable treat if you book ahead and find rates little more than 2nd. I have travelled Nice to Paris 1st class for 40 euros (what, $50?) in the past.
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Old Apr 5th, 2015, 09:25 PM
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Hi CarolineF,

I recently had to take a last-minute trip between Munich & Frankfurt, and I went 2nd class on the ICE.

On both trips, up & back, the trains were extremely crowded: on the trip up there was maybe one seat free in every wagon, and on the return, every.single.solitary. seat was filled. I ended up playing footsie with the 3 other passengers around the table.

Thankfully, it was a short trip, just over 3h. So, my advice to you would be to be comfortable with 2d class on short trips (3h or less), but spring for 1st class for longer trips. You probably won't be sorry.

When you buy your tickets about 90 days early, you get good discounts that make 1st class nicely affordable.

Have fun as you plan!

s
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Old Apr 5th, 2015, 09:54 PM
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"I ended up playing footsie with the 3 other passengers around the table."

If you don't want to play footsie - in either class - don't sit in a seat where you share a table with the person sitting opposite you. Paying the extra for First gives you a bit more legroom - but mutually facing seats merely make footsie slightly less embarrassing. Since in many cases, First will cost several times the price of Standard, the marginally reduced likelihood of undesired physical contact may well turn out an extraordinarily expensive form of insurance.

The only way of avoiding footsie - in any class - is to reserve an airline-style seat. Even in First, the only way of avoiding embarrassment (if you suffer from it) in mutually facing seats is to reserve a seat facing someone you're happy to risk intimacy with.

The only way of ensuring a seat on trains is to reserve one.
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Old Apr 5th, 2015, 11:28 PM
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Swandav's post reminds me of buying 2d class from Verona to Trento in August, where there were so many people traveling with huge backpacks, guitar cases and luggage, it was really very difficult to get to one's seat and get on and off the carriage, since a lot of the luggage ended up piled up near the doors. In August, on the most traveled routes in Italy, you get an overload of backpackers and large families traveling as economically as possible for their holidays. Even though my ride on that train was only an hour, I regretted not paying for a higher class (and I'm self-employed).

In off-season, and on some less popular trains (say, ones headed for Torino instead of Munich), overcrowding is less likely.

On Trenitalia hi-speed trains, higher classes of service do get a snack -- a drink and a munchie. While not champagne, prosecco is usually on offer from the uniformed staff.
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Old Apr 6th, 2015, 12:05 AM
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In European trains, the difference between 1st and 2nd class is not as sharp as between economy and business class on planes. This means, 2nd class on trains offers more space and comfort than economy class on planes.

1st class usually offers about 20% more space and on some trains, electric outlets at each seat, leather seats etc. As a frequent train traveller, I would say the main advantage of 1st class is that it is quieter. 2nd class can become very noisy, especially when you have a bachelors' club or something travelling with a good supply of alcoholic drinks.

The surplus fare of 1st class is usually 50% on the 2nd class price, but that can differ. Sometimes, 1st class is even cheaper than 2nd class. Just carefully check the fares and special offers.
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Old Apr 6th, 2015, 01:42 AM
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flanneruk wrote:

"Since in many cases, First will cost several times the price of Standard, the marginally reduced likelihood of undesired physical contact may well turn out an extraordinarily expensive form of insurance."

That might be true in the UK, but it's not so in France, Switzerland, and Italy. As I noted,

"When you buy your tickets about 90 days early, you get good discounts that make 1st class nicely affordable."

In many cases, 1st class is only about 50€ more than 2d class (for long trips, that's not much), and in some cases you can get a 1st class ticket for the same price as a 2nd class walk-up fare would have been.

flanneruk also wrote:

"The only way of avoiding footsie - in any class - is to reserve an airline-style seat. Even in First, the only way of avoiding embarrassment (if you suffer from it) in mutually facing seats is to reserve a seat facing someone you're happy to risk intimacy with."

Again, that's not been my experience. In 1st class, people don't really want to sit with strangers -- I've often seen a single traveller get to spread out over 4 seats because no one wants to share that sorta intimate 4-seat space around a table. It can be a way to get more room to stretch out.

s
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Old Apr 6th, 2015, 03:14 AM
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This will help you for trains in Italy: http://umbria-italia.blogspot.com/20...first-and.html
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Old Apr 6th, 2015, 10:14 AM
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In Italy, all of the high-speed trains have mandatory reservations, so you can't count on sitting where you please. It's true, though, that 1st class tends to be pretty empty (because most Italians don't consider the extra cost to be worth the slight extra comfort), so you can often spread out, at least until someone boards who has reserved the seat you chose. The business silent car could be a good choice for someone who's annoyed by people talking on cell phones, but on the many trains that have no silent car, first class may have more cell phone chatter than second class, because that's where the business people on expense accounts sit. The so-called premium class on the Italian Frecciarossa trains is a total waste of money, because it has no more room than second class, just better upholstery.

It's true that often you can get a first class (or business) seat for the same price as, or little more than, second (or standard) class, because the limited discounts sell out first in second class (again, because fewer people choose the higher classes). If I can get a 1st (or business) class seat for the same price as 2nd class, or for little more, I buy it. Otherwise I always choose 2nd class. I've not terribly tall, and I can shut out ambient noise.

Finally, you can't always choose airline seating on Italian trains.
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Old Apr 6th, 2015, 12:14 PM
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I have been taking trains around Europe for decades and liike Swandav would suggest for longer trips paying extra for first class which is rarely rarely crowded and oft has several or more empty seats to spread out on - much easier to stow luggage - seata are bigger and in some countries like Britain and Italy you can free drink and snacks en route-

If taking several trains look ahe Eurail Select Pass which comes in first class only if over 25 and compared to walk up tickets could be a bargain and - anyway for lots of great info on European trains check out not only Man in Seat 61 who posts above his commercial site (wiht a commercial link to Rail Europe where you can get railpass prices) and www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com - check the latter's free online European Planning & Rail Guide for lots of suggested itineraries and explanations of things like first vs second class.

and yes be very wary of folks saying how extraordinary expensive first class is and how it is not much different than first class -= like swandav said they know not of what they speak.
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Old Apr 7th, 2015, 05:20 AM
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For most of us here in Europe, 2nd class is the norm, 1st class is the way we go when the Company is paying. 2nd class is absolutely fine - very few peasants and chickens these days ;0)>

Man why then sometime ago here did you say "I admit to being an aficianado of first class"? someone else is always paying for you?

For the trip of a lifetime IME of decades of European rail travel tells me to advice going first class - and luggage is a big reason IME with empty seats often nearby to safely put bags in - rare to find those in 2nd class.
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Old Apr 7th, 2015, 05:26 AM
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We just took the Eurostar for the first time in March. I reserved economy seats and they were just fine for the 2 of us. Even though my husband is 6'4" he was ok with paying less for the 2 hours and 20 minutes we were on the train.
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Old Apr 7th, 2015, 12:11 PM
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the Byzantine fare structure of Eurostar trains with several levels of pricing for the exact same kind of seats - tiers - when one is sold out the next cheapest one kicks in, etc. - This means that at times a first-class ticket may be nearly as cheap or at times even cheaper - rarely but I've seen it - as a standard class one (2nd class)

And if the price differential is not much go for first class IME of Eurostars first class is way way nicer than 2nd class which for me is often kind of an endurance test - I am tall but not nearly 6-4 and I find the 2nd class seats very congested - my knees in the back of the seat ahead of me - well I go 2nd class always now because of the usual price difference but always check first class pricing too and if only a few pounds or euros more go for it - it does include a proper meal with IME unlimited Champagne and drinks and the seats are much bigger and often half occupied.
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Old Apr 7th, 2015, 01:20 PM
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Pal - for a long time you were able to travel first class from Redruth to Plymouth [something I do reasonably often] for £7 during peak times - which with the free drink, snack and newspaper meant that they were almost paying the customers to travel. The only snag was that you had to book at least the night before. it's a journey of about 1hr 20 mins.

they now seem to have realised that this was ludicrously cheap but you can still pick up tickets for this Friday for £17.50 first class each way, peak time. it's £26.50 each way if you want to travel tomorrow.
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Old Apr 8th, 2015, 12:53 AM
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We rode first class between York and Glasgow last summer. I chose an early afternoon train so that we could have lunch first. The snack they provided was really a full meal for us, with sandwiches, beverages, and a sweet. They kept returning to ask if we wanted more! We weren't terribly hungry, so we wrapped up the sandwiches and had them for supper when we got to Glasgow.

On an Italian train, don't expect anything of the sort! You'll get something like peanuts and a beverage.
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Old Apr 8th, 2015, 03:31 AM
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Yes the difference between classes in the UK - as one would expect - is much greater IME than on Continental trains - well worth the extra pounds on long trips and yes that East Coast Line does pile on the complimentary food and drink - booze inclded. Not all rail franchises in the UK give such largesse however.
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Old Apr 8th, 2015, 03:59 AM
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on Great Western, it's a tea, coffee or bottle of water, crisps or biscuits, and a newspaper.

better than nowt though.
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Old Apr 8th, 2015, 04:43 AM
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For Switzerland, if you plan to choose your trains only a few weeks to a few days in advance, the sbb.ch site is helpful, but you will get an idea of how crowded the train will be. Click on the train route and you'll see one to 3 little stick men for each class. If there's only one stick man for second class, then your compartment probably won't be crowded and if you're boarding at the start of the route (from Basel to Interlaken, for example), then you will find plenty of luggage storage space. With two stick men, figure a fairly crowded train and consider upgrading to first class if it won't hurt the budget and there's only one or two stick men in first.

If you see three stick men in second class, prepare yourself for a packed train -- it can mean there are groups traveling that may have entire compartment(s) reserved. And if there are three stick men in first and second class, the train will be almost completely full and if it's a route where you can get seat reservations, get them.
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