Well in Italy you have to factor in 10 euros per fast train ride - like Venice to Florence and Rome to Venice and some other portions and it is per portion not journey in case you need to change trains. The nice thing about the pass is that you can decide en route which train to take whereas the discounted online tickets are train specific and hard to change. Plus your pass, if over age 25 is first class and there are IME of years of railing around Europe many MANY benefits to first class so if you are comparing first class pass to individual fares be sure to compare with the same class 0 in first class for your itinerary a pass makes lots of dollars and sense to me.

Now Florence to Pisa may only be second class on some trains and is dirt cheap - perhaps cheaper than burning a day on a pass.

If you took the boat between Italy and Barcelona you would only need a two-country Italy and Spain pass and this pass also comes in second class if really need to economize.

Check out these sites for loads of great info on European trains - www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.seat61.com and www.ricksteves.com. Pass prices are mandated to be universal but shipping fees can be added on - many agents have none.

Are you sure you want to go to this many destinations? How many days do you have? Are you more interested in riding the trains than seeing the sights?

There's been a lot of recent storm damage along the Ligurian coast, especially in the Cinque Terre. That won't be repaired by February. And February is not the best time to visit the CT. If the weather's bad, as it's likely to be, there's nothing to do. Cities are a better destination in the winter.

I see there is one train between Florence and Barcelona with a single change in Torino. Why not go directly from the CT to Torino instead of backtracking to Florence? A sleeping compartment costs extra.

You might look into cheap flights from Genoa or Florence/Pisa to Spain. (www.whichbudget.com and www.skiyscanner.net) Then you could use 2 single-country train passes -- if such passes make economic sense.

Are you going for at least a month? If not, that is a LOT of territory. Even w/ a month this would be a "if today is Tues., this must be Belgium" type itinerary. Eleven destinations really takes about 5 or 6 weeks to see. You will be spending at least 10 full days just in transit.

So-- the big question is . . . How long is your trip??

Plus it will be in Feb so the weather will likely be OK-ish to truly awful. So all that travel can be problematic.

Hi PalenQ, Mimar and janisj - thanks for all the input
ok, maybe I should have put in my planned itinerary first

Feb 26 arrive Rome
Feb29 depart Rome go to Venice (I already pre booked Scavi tour for Feb 28)
Feb 29 Arrive Venice
Mar 2 depart Venice to go to Florence
Mar 3 (or 2?) day trip to Pisa
Mar 5 depart for CT (is the storm damage that bad? we were really looking forward to CT)
Mar 8 depart for Barcelona
Mar 11 depart for Madrid
Mar 14 depart for Seville
Mar 16 depart for Cordoba
Mar 19 depart for Paris
Mar 23 Fly out Paris

Feb to March is the only time we are able to out of our work schedules though, so it's pretty much set.
I'm going to look into cutting out some places then (CT if it's not feasible to go as well as Cordoba) if we end up rushing through everything

this equals:

2 days in Rome plus a bit of jetlagged time on day 1
1.5 days - Venice
2.5 days for Florence/Pisa
2.5 days in the CT (I'd skip this myself and add the time to maybe Paris and Venice or Barcelona)
2 days in Barcelona if you fly, less if you take the train.
2.5 days in Madrid
1.5 days in Seville
2.5 days in Cordoba
3 days in Paris

Only you can decide if this something you'd enjoy. I personally wouldn't. Packing every couple of days, dealing w/ all the train stations and airports, and learning my way around a new city.

You will be doing a lot of traveling, but the trip sounds great and very doable. I'm not sure about Trenitalia, but can offer a little advice on the Renfe site. If I am not mistaken, you can web saver tickets online that are a 50-60% discount from the normal fares. If I remember correctly, these tickets do not show up until they are available for purchase, no sooner than 62 days in advance. That is the earliest you can purchase the tickets if I remember correctly.

When I went to Spain, I sent an E-Mail to the nearest Spanish Tourist information Center in the U.S., Los Angeles in my case. I told them what cities I was going to visit and they sent me some great information, city maps, and best of all a two page document on the best way to use the Renfe site.

Not sure if you factored these "web saver" fares into your math, but it could be something to consider. I remember buying the train tickets as soon as they became available because the cheap fares disappear quickly. Write the tourist information and see if you can get the same document they sent me. In the meantime, here is a posting on tripadvisor.com concernint the Renfe site:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g187514-c80518/Madrid:Spain:Buying.Renfe.Tickets.Online..html

Rome/Venice is 76€ and Venice/Florence is 43€ on Trenitalia. You might be able to snag some discounts by purchasing online (as much as 60% off) or in advance in Italy (discounts are advance purchase only and can sell out). Florence/Pisa is only 6€ each way (no discounts, don't purchase online).

For some of your other destinations, flights on some of the many budget airlines will likely be much faster and cheaper. Be sure to pay attention to strict luggage restrictions and check-in times. Look at flights from Pisa or Florence to Barcelona (also nearby Girona) or Madrid. I think I would book to Madrid or Seville and get a long leg of travel out of the way and backtrack towards Barcelona (train to Paris?) unless you can find a cheap flight from Madrid to Paris
www.whichbudget.com
www.skyscanner.net

I agree with dropping a couple of locations. You are spending too much time on transport and not enough actually seeing places.

The pass is all but useless, and a waste of money, in Spain since all of the high-speed trains require reservations, so no walk ups. If using the pass, you'll have to make reservations at the train station and pay the reservations fee at that time. The system does not accept the pass online.

Have you looked at the train schedules from Florence to Barcelona? And from Madrid to Paris. These are extremely long - and IMH onerous trips - and I think you should seriously consider low cot airlines very so many hours spent on train. (According to bahn.de - the most reliable schedule for all of europe - the former trip is overnight with a least one change of trains for at least 16 hours - and and the latter is a 14 hour trip with multiple stops.)

I can;t think that these trips make sense - or that a eurail pass makes sense overall - when the trips within Italy are very low cost as individual tickets.

Sorry - you also seem to be ignoring that you are planning this trip for midwinter. I know that italy and Spain are not are cold as the northern US - but it's still winter - will be chilly to cold (Madrid is on a high plateau) and rain/sleet is likely and snow possible everywhere. Can;t imagine that hiking along the sea will be any fun- even if everything has been repaired by then - which seems extremely unlikely.

Also - agree that you are leaving very little time to see/do anything - especially given the very short days (dark at 4 pm) and the fact that many sights will be on shorter winter schedules (some places in italy may be open only from 10 am to 1 or 2 in the afternoon.)

ok guys, after spending the past few days researching the various websites you suggested, it turns out that the cheapest and more time saving for us would be to get pre booked tickets online through the various national railways. Since we have pretty much decided on which places (except for CT... we really want to go, but it looks like it's not possible by then) to go, we will not mind that we will not be flexible. And as Robert2533 pointed out, most of the time we will be either in Spain and Italy so we still have to reserve anyway. Thanks a lot for all the help everyone!!
Next step for us is to trim down the places we are stopping. I did not factor in that 4pm will be dark already (even in March?)

You can check out sun rise and sun set times on this site:
http://www.gaisma.com/en/dir/150-continent.html

IME making a huge mistake by not going first class and the railpasses are great deals vis a vis first class fares. Apply the same criteria IMO to rail travel as you do to hotels, restaurants. You can eat perfectly well at McDonalds and sleep fine in low budget hotels.

the difference between classes on trains is significant - for the trip of a lifetime this is one thing you should not scrimp on - I have traveled on European trains for decades and can adamantly recommend for the average traveler seeing seemless travel and especially those with luggage in tow to go first class. I nearly always have empty seats next to me to put my bags in rather than fending for space in already perhaps overpacked overhead luggage racks in an oft packed second class.

Check the difference in total price of a first class pass vis a vis online discounted second class tickets - unless you save a ton go first class.

Lot of travel and some of it LONG. You can say you've been there for sure, but will you have really enjoyed BEING there. You have a nice amount of total time. You could really really see several places well and enjoy the culture/people/milieu.
You say this is a first trip, and it sort of "shows"--if it's Tuesday it must be_________. You want to see "everything". For the short times you have in major cities, you will be running running running from sight to site. To me, it will be a lot of money spent for not much real knowledge/enjoyment. Sorry for the downer, but it could be really memorable and fun if you would pare it down.

>>>IME making a huge mistake by not going first class and the railpasses are great deals vis a vis first class fares.<<<
>>the difference between classes on trains is significant<<<

In Italy, the difference is not significant and you will save a lot of money booking mini fares on 2nd class (sometimes as much as 60%) which is roomier than coach on an airplane. Only book your Rome/Venice and Venice/Florence on Trenitalia in advance (or purchase when you first get to Italy). Don't purchase the Florence/Pisa or Florence/CT in advance as these are older, slow R trains without reserved seating. There are no discounts available on the R trains. Use this link to search only the faster trains on Trenitalia (use the regular Trenitalia link for the slow R trains). You can't book more than 4 months in advance and they might not have all schedules online until after the second week of Dec.
http://www.fsitaliane.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=1d85c6b9455c2210VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD

You can often find cheap flights for Madrid/Barcelona as there is so much competition on that route.

For the Spain portion of tour trip I'd spend 4 nights in Sevilla and visit Cordoba as a daytrip versus 2 nights in each. Cordoba is only 45 minutes by train from Sevilla and also on the same route to Madrid. You could also stop between and just store your luggage for the day.

I assume you are planning from Madrid to Paris on March 19. If so you could go from Barcelona to Sevilla (there are lots of cheap flights) then go to Madrid after Sevilla and from Madrid fly to Paris. Another option would be to visit Barcelona, then Madrid and then Sevilla and fly to Paris from Sevilla.

It sounds like you are set on such a fast paced itinerary. It's a shame as you'll barely have enough time to see these major cities and not enough time to do day trips to smaller cities. I'd at least fly between Italy and Spain and Spain to France to save precious time.

Best of luck with trimming down the number of places you are stopping. Losing CT Mar 5-8 is really is blessing (perhaps in disguise for now, but once you're back home you realize how unworkable your original schedule was...). There are so many places that need more time (Rome, for example, should be 7 days minimum IMO). Having fun dividing up that "dividend" among your other destinations.

Doing Cordoba as a (1/2 day) day trip from Seville is an excellent suggestion. Hope you decide to follow that advice.

I agree that a few budget flights in lieu of arduous, lengthy train journeys is an excellent idea. Give this idea careful consideration.

I also agree that this is still all a bit much but at least it will be better than it was originally.

You may want to take the days from the CT and add a couple of nights in Granada. It seems a shame for a first trip to Spain, and Andalucia in particular, and miss the Alhambra.

But I also agree with bardo1 that you are really shortchanging other cities (ie. Rome, Madrid, Barcelona & Paris with only 3 days for each when you could easily spend 5-7 days in these cities). That's the dilemma. Too many places and not enough time.

>IME making a huge mistake by not going first class and the railpasses are great deals vis a vis first class fares.<<<
>>the difference between classes on trains is significant<<<

In Italy, the difference is not significant>

IMO after riding relentlessly in Italy, including the past few weeks there IS a significance difference between classes and I genuinely believe anyone who says there is not just has not experienced first (or second) class - no time now but will return to describe the very very significant differences between the two classes (soon to be four!)

Ok guys, much appreciated inputs(lots to digest for the next few hours!). I'll take to my wife about cutting down on some cities as much as possible, and then post back here. Again, thank you!

Feb 26 arrive Rome
Feb29 depart Rome go to Venice (I already pre booked Scavi tour for Feb 28)
Feb 29 Arrive Venice
Mar 2 depart Venice to go to Florence
Mar 3 (or 2?) day trip to Pisa
Mar 5 depart for CT (is the storm damage that bad? we were really looking forward to CT)
Mar 8 depart for Barcelona
Mar 11 depart for Madrid
Mar 14 depart for Seville
Mar 16 depart for Cordoba
Mar 19 depart for Paris
Mar 23 Fly out Paris

You know this itinerary to me is not at all too rushed - I often do trips much faster - this a great itinerary IMO.

More is not better.

You really need to cut down the destinations and know for a certainty that this may be your first trip to Europe but it will not be your last, so plan for enough time in each big city to savor and enjoy that city. You WILL be going back to Europe - probably like many of us, over and over and over again. There will always be new places to discover and enjoy.

Second piece of invaluable advice you've received so far is:fly. Look into the budget airlines. The earlier you book, the better the fares. Fly between the countries, i.e., between Italy and Spain and between Spain and Paris. You really do NOT want to go by train from Italy to Spain. I've tried to plot a good route and have always failed. Flying is fast and easy.

Once you've cut down on the number of destinations, then recalibrate your expenses to see if a railpass makes sense to you or not.

I see that one of the reasons you're considering the different travel alternatives is to save money. On another front: lodging - have you considered staying in B&Bs? Don't know where you're from, but European B&Bs are usually relatively inexpensive when compared to hotels and offer a great way to get to know local people and meet with other Europeans (that's one of the purposes of your traveling, right? To get to meet local people).

Good luck on your planning and bon voyage!

and what if it is your last trip to Europe? I do not find the itinerary rushed at all - stay with it IMO.

We rode a number of AVE trains in Spain last May and found little difference between first and second class, apart from the little bottle of cava and mediocre meal served in first class. The seats are very nice in either class. Those AVE trains are great!

Do you know how to find the discount prices on Renfe? You have to go to "purchase" for a date about two months out. The Fares and Schedules area will not show the discount fares.

Examples: Barcelona to Madrid, 47 euro in Turista class ( some trains are 58); Madrid to Sevilla around 33 euro.

Just make sure to buy the tickets far enough in advance so you do get the discounts.

In Feb. 2010 it snowed about 2 cm in Rome, much of the rest of the time it was raining. Feb. 2010, 2011 in Paris it pretty much rained constantly (yes, we'll be back again this February) and was pretty cold. These trips were at both the first and end of the month.

Doing a ton of train travel is not such a great way to enjoy a trip. Taking the occasional train trip can be nice though, just not every other day. As we always say here at Fodors, count on losing at least 1/2 day for each location change and this doesn't include the packing/unpacking part.

Instead of trying to cram in all of Southern and Western Europe into your trip, whittle it down to a few cities. Use these cities then as bases and star out. As an example, we'll be in "Paris" for about 2 weeks. But, from our apartment there (where we'll keep our main luggage) we plan on training to Amsterdam for an overnight and doing an early morning leave/ late night return on a day trip to London. Now, we have been to London many times, but we've never done the Chunnel, so this is why we are doing this. We'll also be training out to Chartres and possibly Bayeaux. This isn't our first trip to Paris either. We just have a great deal on an apartment ($900 for 2 weeks). This is why we go in December and February, costs much less.

So reconsider your trip, think of what you really want to see and I'll just about guarantee it isn't the inside of a train station.


dave

So reconsider your trip, think of what you really want to see and I'll just about guarantee it isn't the inside of a train station>

nor is it as others, not daveesi, recommend, the inside of airports as flying between cities means - at least on the train you do see the lay of the Europe in between the cities - some real nice countryside often.

The point is train stations and airports are a given. But it is the number of them that is the problem. Spending almost as much time in stations/airports, on trains/planes, and in transit as they will actually "be" anyplace. That's the problem.

I do differ about trains - trains to me are a relaxing way of seeing the countryside - not the travail many make it out to be IME anyway. Flying however shows you zilch.

folks here routinely drive around Europe - suppose Janis would also say that is bad too, like spending too much time on trains?

No janis there is something in Europe outside the big cities you seem to gravitate to - the Europe in between - check it out!

Seeing the "Europe in between" from a train window? Oh, yeah, that's interesting--and it IS. But not "relentlessly" to use Pal' word.
I honestly think new travellers don't always realize that arriving in a big city (airport or train station) and making your way to the cab stand or Metro, finding your hotel and settling in to it, "discovering" the neighborhood, deciding on your sightseeing, etc. ALL the things that go into "seeing the sites/sights" in a new place every 3 days for a month is TIRING, plus it is truly only hitting those high spots.
This itinerary IS the stuff that a tour is made of--with the tour director at the front of the bus getting everyone on board for the next activity, with all the hotels plotted out, and the method of getting to them in hand.

Very good post, Gretchen. Very realistic.

The revised itinerary posted just above is in no way relentless on traveling - the initial one in the OP was but the 2nd one is a fairly typical itinerary for novice travelers.

YOU used the word "relentless" in your train post--take a look! LOL
I still think it needs paring, and you are an experience traveller, and may be able to do this--BUT would you really "like" to do it. It is STILL 10 places in 26 or so days.
It's their trip, but some of us are suggesting something that might give them something besides a fly by.

PQ: You have to explain to the OP that you personally think the train journeys are as important as the destinations. That you look through the prism of a train aficionado. Maybe the OP and his wife are too. But if not, they might be hugely surprised at how rushed their itinerary is and that they are mostly seeing Europe from train windows.

The view from train windows is not all the same during all seasons. The OP should consider what they are likely to be seeing from train windows during February. There's also the graffiti to consider.

janis - yes of course - there are folks who actually find riding first class trains relaxing - unlike airplanes that most find taxing IMO

PQ -- "yes of course - there are folks who actually find riding first class trains relaxing - unlike airplanes that most find taxing IMO"

Read what I wrote, will ya?? We ain't debating trains vs. planes (some journeys are better by one, some by the other). It is the NUMBER of stops/destinations during a short trip . . .