Eurail Pass - 3 of 4 Countries help needed
Feb 15th, 2011, 04:48 PM
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Eurail Pass - 3 of 4 Countries help needed
I have received so much help today from Fodors could I ask for more help.
Travelling from London to Paris on Eurostar. Then Paris to Zurich, Zurich to Austria and Austria to Germany.
Do I purchase 4 country pass for the Europe travel. Would that be the most economical for me and then purchase a German Rail Pass for Germany. We intend to be there for 13 days and travel between Munich, Stuttgart, Wurzburg, Worms and leave from Frankfurt to come home. I have checked out the prices but just want reassurance that I am doing the right thing. You guys are so experienced at this stuff.
Travelling from London to Paris on Eurostar. Then Paris to Zurich, Zurich to Austria and Austria to Germany.
Do I purchase 4 country pass for the Europe travel. Would that be the most economical for me and then purchase a German Rail Pass for Germany. We intend to be there for 13 days and travel between Munich, Stuttgart, Wurzburg, Worms and leave from Frankfurt to come home. I have checked out the prices but just want reassurance that I am doing the right thing. You guys are so experienced at this stuff.
Feb 15th, 2011, 05:19 PM
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The only way to really tell if a pass is the best deal is to compare the point to point tickets as opposed to the passes.
If you go on this site http://www.railsaver.com it will let you enter in your train trips and then it will tell you if a pass or point to point or a combo of both is the best way to go.
If you go on this site http://www.railsaver.com it will let you enter in your train trips and then it will tell you if a pass or point to point or a combo of both is the best way to go.
Feb 15th, 2011, 06:21 PM
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Passes are rarely a good value and to my knowledge the Eurostar is not included as part of any railpass.
If you want to compare pass costs vs. advance purchase ticket costs, try the following:
For Eurostar and Paris to Zurich: http://www.tgv-europe.com
For Germany and Austria: http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?
If you want to compare pass costs vs. advance purchase ticket costs, try the following:
For Eurostar and Paris to Zurich: http://www.tgv-europe.com
For Germany and Austria: http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?
Feb 16th, 2011, 02:43 AM
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You will find great bargains on advance-sale point-to-point tix at the German Railways site Sarastro gave you.
Because the lowest prices are for trains to, from, and within Germany, you should consider going to Germany right after Paris. Paris to Worms, for example, can be had for 39 Euros each. Worms to Stuttgart is 14.50 Euros on a ticket for two. Stuttgart to Zürich is 19 Euros each. Zürich to Munich is 39 Euros each. "Austria" is pretty vague. From Munich, two can get to Salzburg or Würzburg on a "Bayern Ticket" daypass using the regional trains for 29 Euros (no advance purchase needed.) Rounding off, you're looking at maybe 150 Euros each for the legs mentioned. The selectpass allows more freedom to plan as you go, but it sound like you'll be paying upwards of $1100 for two that way.
For the cheap prices, you need to jump on them when they come up for sale - 92 days in advance - and you commit to a specific train at a specific time; changes made in advance incur a penalty.
Because the lowest prices are for trains to, from, and within Germany, you should consider going to Germany right after Paris. Paris to Worms, for example, can be had for 39 Euros each. Worms to Stuttgart is 14.50 Euros on a ticket for two. Stuttgart to Zürich is 19 Euros each. Zürich to Munich is 39 Euros each. "Austria" is pretty vague. From Munich, two can get to Salzburg or Würzburg on a "Bayern Ticket" daypass using the regional trains for 29 Euros (no advance purchase needed.) Rounding off, you're looking at maybe 150 Euros each for the legs mentioned. The selectpass allows more freedom to plan as you go, but it sound like you'll be paying upwards of $1100 for two that way.
For the cheap prices, you need to jump on them when they come up for sale - 92 days in advance - and you commit to a specific train at a specific time; changes made in advance incur a penalty.
Feb 16th, 2011, 03:04 AM
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many bargains available - these easily found on national carrier websites..
example from Austria to Germany
www.oebb.at
look under sparschiens ticket
Vienna to Munich 29 euro
Bregenz to Munich from 19 euro.
As mentioned the Bayern Ticket for Bavarian regional trains at 29 euro for 2-5 persons great
I believe other german states have similar.
Most probably your point to point tickets are less expensive than a pass - just compare.
example from Austria to Germany
www.oebb.at
look under sparschiens ticket
Vienna to Munich 29 euro
Bregenz to Munich from 19 euro.
As mentioned the Bayern Ticket for Bavarian regional trains at 29 euro for 2-5 persons great
I believe other german states have similar.
Most probably your point to point tickets are less expensive than a pass - just compare.
Feb 20th, 2011, 01:48 AM
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As I've already posted elsewhere, I keep seeing 'Railsaver.com' mentioned as a way to test point to point versus railpasses, So I thought I'd test how accurate they were as a true guide to what our European point-to-point train fares are.
Test 1. Paris to Amsterdam.
Railsaver.com says: $94 every date I checked, about 72 euros. 2nd class.
The true price direct from the operator (www.thalys.com or www.tgv-europe.com), test undertaken on 20 february 2011, picking random travel dates in April or May 2011) varies from a mere 35 euros (naturally no refunds, no changes to travel plans) through other departures showing prices of 45, 55, 65 euros to a maximum of 130 euros full-price for a fully-flexible on-the-day ticket. All inclusive of seat reservation, with zero booking fee.
Test 2: Paris to Milan.
Railsaver.com says: $129 every train, about 99 euros.
Actual prices on the European rail operators websites for the direct Paris-Milan Artesia TGVs: Prices vary from a mere 30 euros shown against some departures, or 46 euros on many more (all no refunds, no changes to travel plans) up to 98 euros for a fully-flexible full price on-the-day ticket. All fully inclusive of a seat reservation.
It would seem that railsavers shows some 'overseas tariff' not the actual fares you'll pay if you book direct with the European train operators, and overestimates some true prices by ignoring the cheap advance purchase fares.
On many routes in Europe we now have airline-style pricing with cheap fares in advance, more expensive fares on the day. You should always check point to point fares direct with the operator rather than an agency, especially a non-European agency.
Test 1. Paris to Amsterdam.
Railsaver.com says: $94 every date I checked, about 72 euros. 2nd class.
The true price direct from the operator (www.thalys.com or www.tgv-europe.com), test undertaken on 20 february 2011, picking random travel dates in April or May 2011) varies from a mere 35 euros (naturally no refunds, no changes to travel plans) through other departures showing prices of 45, 55, 65 euros to a maximum of 130 euros full-price for a fully-flexible on-the-day ticket. All inclusive of seat reservation, with zero booking fee.
Test 2: Paris to Milan.
Railsaver.com says: $129 every train, about 99 euros.
Actual prices on the European rail operators websites for the direct Paris-Milan Artesia TGVs: Prices vary from a mere 30 euros shown against some departures, or 46 euros on many more (all no refunds, no changes to travel plans) up to 98 euros for a fully-flexible full price on-the-day ticket. All fully inclusive of a seat reservation.
It would seem that railsavers shows some 'overseas tariff' not the actual fares you'll pay if you book direct with the European train operators, and overestimates some true prices by ignoring the cheap advance purchase fares.
On many routes in Europe we now have airline-style pricing with cheap fares in advance, more expensive fares on the day. You should always check point to point fares direct with the operator rather than an agency, especially a non-European agency.
Feb 20th, 2011, 11:34 AM
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The only way you know a pass is not economical for you from railsaver.com is if they say it is not otherwise yes their prices are often inflated and do not also refelct the online discounts available. Railsaver is run by one of the major railpass selling agencies in the U.S. and their goal is to sell railpasses - yet it gets blindly recommended over and over again. RailEurope, the villanous RailEurope has the same price comparison but no one here would ever ever recommend that as a comparison but often do railsaver.com. Weird.
anyway whether a pass is viable or not depends on factors such as if you want flexibility to hop on any train any time and even change your routings, etc. - then a railpass is often a good deal if traveling more than once or twice and a pass is also often a much better deal in first class and IMO the ordinary tourist will find first class much more relaxed in many ways than 2nd class - so comparing discounted 2nd class tickets that cannot be changed nor refunded often is IMO like comparing oranges to apples. First class seats are not only significantly larger there are often IME of decades of incessant European rail travel lots of empty seats - I can almost always put my luggage on a seat next to me rather than fending for space in crowded overheard luggage racks in 2nd class, etc.
and for the OP's routing I think a Eurail Select Pass is a no-brainer - a first class pass. A 4-country version valid in France, Switzerland and Germany. Supplement the German days with some of the regional passes like the Bavaria Pass perhaps. But in Switzerland, Austria and Germany you can virtually hop any train anytime and to me at least that is also priceless. If one were traveling extensively in Germany then the German Twin Pass can, say for six days out of one month only cost about 29 euros p.p. in 2nd class so why fool around with the 29 euro discounted fares with all their restrictions and that you may have to pay 39 or 49 euros instead of 29.
Anyway for loads of great info on European trains and passes I always highlight these fantastic IMO sites - www.seat61.com - man in seat 61, who posted above - his commercial site; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com. And yes www.bahn.de - the German Railways web site for schdules all over Europe - the easiest to use and most reliable I ahve encounted.
anyway whether a pass is viable or not depends on factors such as if you want flexibility to hop on any train any time and even change your routings, etc. - then a railpass is often a good deal if traveling more than once or twice and a pass is also often a much better deal in first class and IMO the ordinary tourist will find first class much more relaxed in many ways than 2nd class - so comparing discounted 2nd class tickets that cannot be changed nor refunded often is IMO like comparing oranges to apples. First class seats are not only significantly larger there are often IME of decades of incessant European rail travel lots of empty seats - I can almost always put my luggage on a seat next to me rather than fending for space in crowded overheard luggage racks in 2nd class, etc.
and for the OP's routing I think a Eurail Select Pass is a no-brainer - a first class pass. A 4-country version valid in France, Switzerland and Germany. Supplement the German days with some of the regional passes like the Bavaria Pass perhaps. But in Switzerland, Austria and Germany you can virtually hop any train anytime and to me at least that is also priceless. If one were traveling extensively in Germany then the German Twin Pass can, say for six days out of one month only cost about 29 euros p.p. in 2nd class so why fool around with the 29 euro discounted fares with all their restrictions and that you may have to pay 39 or 49 euros instead of 29.
Anyway for loads of great info on European trains and passes I always highlight these fantastic IMO sites - www.seat61.com - man in seat 61, who posted above - his commercial site; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com. And yes www.bahn.de - the German Railways web site for schdules all over Europe - the easiest to use and most reliable I ahve encounted.
Feb 21st, 2011, 12:23 PM
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If buying a Eurail Select Pass for 6 days or longer try to buy it before March 30, 2011 as then you will get an extra day free - 7 days at the price of 6, 9 days at the price of 8, etc. Does not apply to 5 day passes but at 6 or more makes of course the per day rate of the pass much cheaper - 7 day pass about $430 or about $60/day for not second class travel but first class travel, which IME of decades of European rail travel has umpteen benefits over 2nd class, which is not really bad but just not nearly as relaxing IME.
Feb 22nd, 2011, 05:46 PM
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Thanks PalenQ You have been so much help. Makes a lot of sense to me to travel 1st class. Have done 2nd Class Lecce to Roma couple of years ago. Packed beyond belief and really felt cramped and uncomfortable.
Thanks again.
P
Thanks again.
P
Feb 23rd, 2011, 09:16 AM
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I believe other german states have similar.
Most probably your point to point tickets are less expensive than a pass - just compare>
My friend molkker thoughtfully gives the various discounted fares involved. But as these fares I believe and Molkker can correct me if wrong, are train-specific and non-refundable you lose any flexibility - a railpass in Germany and Austria lets you just show up at the station and jump any train practically anytime - and those type of fully flexible at will fares can often very pricey. Plus for the average casual tourist I strongly recommend first class travel and those discounts mentioned are 2nd class - now if i were a local who takes trains a lot I'd no doubt go 2nd class and the discount route but for the average casual tourist first class will be a lot more leisurely (there is some reason many Germans and Austrians pay extra to ride first class, duh!) and railpasses themselves are often better deals in first than second class because often there is only a slighter higher per day price for a first-class pass than a 2nd class pass.
Most probably your point to point tickets are less expensive than a pass - just compare>
My friend molkker thoughtfully gives the various discounted fares involved. But as these fares I believe and Molkker can correct me if wrong, are train-specific and non-refundable you lose any flexibility - a railpass in Germany and Austria lets you just show up at the station and jump any train practically anytime - and those type of fully flexible at will fares can often very pricey. Plus for the average casual tourist I strongly recommend first class travel and those discounts mentioned are 2nd class - now if i were a local who takes trains a lot I'd no doubt go 2nd class and the discount route but for the average casual tourist first class will be a lot more leisurely (there is some reason many Germans and Austrians pay extra to ride first class, duh!) and railpasses themselves are often better deals in first than second class because often there is only a slighter higher per day price for a first-class pass than a 2nd class pass.
Feb 23rd, 2011, 02:58 PM
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Thanks again PalenQ - have decided to go with the Eurail Pass and then purchase Bayern tickets and Rheinland Pfalz tickets for the second part of the journey. Will use up one day of the Eurail pass travelling from Nürmberg to Worms because we can get on the faster trains and as we will have luggage it will be much more comfortable.
This site is really quite amazing. So much good advice from everyone just a matter or sorting through it and applying it to one's own needs.
Cheers
P
This site is really quite amazing. So much good advice from everyone just a matter or sorting through it and applying it to one's own needs.
Cheers
P
Feb 24th, 2011, 12:59 AM
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Re austrian rail system
Sparschiene tickets from Austria are for specific trains - but with international travel at prices 19- 39 euro and numerous choices of trains , these are a great bargain.
I always have problems with people speaking about non flexible tickets.
Most Travelers pre book hotels for specific days and arrival departures thus their schedule is pre planned and fixed.
What is wrong with buying a fixed travel ticket that provides huge savings?
If flexibility is so important why pre book hotels , flights tours etc.?
The Einfach Raus tickets are for any regional , rex or s bahn train in Austria - these are available for 2-5 people traveling together weekdays after 9 no such restriction on weekends .
No need to purchase in advance - you can buy it on the day you travel 28 euro inclusive -
cheap- convenient .
Non refundable - no need you buy this only just before beginning your travel.
These very similar to the Bayern Ticket and other german state offerings.
The few locals traveling first class may be business persons traveling with special business oriented ticket system.
Most others find 2nd class very comfortable - enough space- same train - much less expensive - gets you there at the same time and very often less crowded than 1st class - as 1st class cars are very limited on must trains thus many fewer seats available.
Most here find the added cost of 1st class an unneeded thing and find their money better spent elsewhere.
austrain rail website
www.oebb.at
has info on discounrttickets from above
available in english too.
Sparschiene tickets from Austria are for specific trains - but with international travel at prices 19- 39 euro and numerous choices of trains , these are a great bargain.
I always have problems with people speaking about non flexible tickets.
Most Travelers pre book hotels for specific days and arrival departures thus their schedule is pre planned and fixed.
What is wrong with buying a fixed travel ticket that provides huge savings?
If flexibility is so important why pre book hotels , flights tours etc.?
The Einfach Raus tickets are for any regional , rex or s bahn train in Austria - these are available for 2-5 people traveling together weekdays after 9 no such restriction on weekends .
No need to purchase in advance - you can buy it on the day you travel 28 euro inclusive -
cheap- convenient .
Non refundable - no need you buy this only just before beginning your travel.
These very similar to the Bayern Ticket and other german state offerings.
The few locals traveling first class may be business persons traveling with special business oriented ticket system.
Most others find 2nd class very comfortable - enough space- same train - much less expensive - gets you there at the same time and very often less crowded than 1st class - as 1st class cars are very limited on must trains thus many fewer seats available.
Most here find the added cost of 1st class an unneeded thing and find their money better spent elsewhere.
austrain rail website
www.oebb.at
has info on discounrttickets from above
available in english too.
Feb 24th, 2011, 08:47 AM
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gets you there at the same time and very often less crowded than 1st class - as 1st class cars are very limited on must trains thus many fewer seats available.>
This could be true in Austria but not on the Austrian trains I have taken - I think molkker has taken more than moi but it definitely ain't so in Germany or most other countries - trains in Germany can be chock full a lot IMO in 2nd class and in decades of icnessant German train travel I have yet to see any first class car, and there are several on them on each ICE train, check the charts, without an empty seat if nt several - I can always find an adjacent seat to put my travel bag on rather then fending for more limited space in overhead 2nd class luggage racks. First class seats are significantly bigger so anyone tall or obese or with limited mobility will find that a huge advantage as well.
And only in first class TMK do you have many so-called isolated seats - with an aisle and a window - the seats sometimes face each other with a table in between for couples - rarely see that in 2nd class - a seat with an aisle and a window - just one seat in a row and these at least I greatly appreciate - no being elbow to elbow with other folk. For the casual traveler on the trip of a lifetime go first class is my adamant feeling gained from decades of European rail travel.
This could be true in Austria but not on the Austrian trains I have taken - I think molkker has taken more than moi but it definitely ain't so in Germany or most other countries - trains in Germany can be chock full a lot IMO in 2nd class and in decades of icnessant German train travel I have yet to see any first class car, and there are several on them on each ICE train, check the charts, without an empty seat if nt several - I can always find an adjacent seat to put my travel bag on rather then fending for more limited space in overhead 2nd class luggage racks. First class seats are significantly bigger so anyone tall or obese or with limited mobility will find that a huge advantage as well.
And only in first class TMK do you have many so-called isolated seats - with an aisle and a window - the seats sometimes face each other with a table in between for couples - rarely see that in 2nd class - a seat with an aisle and a window - just one seat in a row and these at least I greatly appreciate - no being elbow to elbow with other folk. For the casual traveler on the trip of a lifetime go first class is my adamant feeling gained from decades of European rail travel.
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:20 PM
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Premium class has the highest level of service, premium seating for 16 premium passengers is located in the front part of the control car at the opposite end of the train to the locomotive.[24] The seating plan is in an 'open compartments' style,[6][note 4] and intended to be an considerable improvement over previous first class accommodation. A galley separates the premium and business class compartments.[24]
Railjet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Railjet is a high speed train of the Austrian Federal Railways (ÖBB), ... The total value of the order was €798 million for 469 passenger carriages. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railjet
Business class seating occupies the remainder of the control car, the second coach and half of the third coach which also contains spaces and facilities for wheel chair users.
2 and 1/2 cars of each Austrian RailJet are first-class - seems like a lot of Austrians like the amenities of first class described above.
On the trip of a lifetime pay the extra for first class IMO and have a much more relaxed ride - and even be able to ride in the control car as described above!
Railjet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Railjet is a high speed train of the Austrian Federal Railways (ÖBB), ... The total value of the order was €798 million for 469 passenger carriages. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railjet
Business class seating occupies the remainder of the control car, the second coach and half of the third coach which also contains spaces and facilities for wheel chair users.
2 and 1/2 cars of each Austrian RailJet are first-class - seems like a lot of Austrians like the amenities of first class described above.
On the trip of a lifetime pay the extra for first class IMO and have a much more relaxed ride - and even be able to ride in the control car as described above!
Feb 24th, 2011, 11:51 PM
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It is unfortunate when some posters make description comments about the merits of some trains such as that listed above ( Railjet ). Knowledge seems to come solely from wikipedia and not by much actual ridership.
Poster obviously unaware of many things.
Premium class mentioned above with limited seating requires a extra fee for ridership over and above First Class ticket. This is not probably mentioned in Wikipedia, thus poster does not know this. Thus " pay the extra for first class " " even be able to ride in the control car " Wrong - you need a first class ticket and then need to pay a further premium for seat.
First class seating is 2 and 1. Some of these seats are in the Bistro/ restaurant car.
First class does not consist of 2 1/2 cars as stated. Thus, It seems the conclusion of the poster regarding what austrians like is further flawed.
train consists of 4 cars of 2nd class 2x2 seating . All one needs to do is count available seating. The seating preference of most users is very clear.
Thus as I stated above - many more 2nd class tickets.
They have laptop tables, power outlets , and large luggage racks, certainly comfortable.
Those having used this service would be aware of this fact.
Poster not familiar with the train does not know about the kids movie program available to all classes.
Most importantly , the railjet train has limited service routes and in some areas limited speeds due to track up grades.
Many other longer distance train service in Austria exists using rolling stock much different than the Railjet service - Intercity - EC etc.
These are older cars many now with upgrades but where the difference between 1st and second class is even more limited.
If one takes the time to read posts , I clearly state above in my initial post.
first sentence
" Re Austrian Rail System "
My comments clearly made regarding this system not another.
Poster obviously unaware of many things.
Premium class mentioned above with limited seating requires a extra fee for ridership over and above First Class ticket. This is not probably mentioned in Wikipedia, thus poster does not know this. Thus " pay the extra for first class " " even be able to ride in the control car " Wrong - you need a first class ticket and then need to pay a further premium for seat.
First class seating is 2 and 1. Some of these seats are in the Bistro/ restaurant car.
First class does not consist of 2 1/2 cars as stated. Thus, It seems the conclusion of the poster regarding what austrians like is further flawed.
train consists of 4 cars of 2nd class 2x2 seating . All one needs to do is count available seating. The seating preference of most users is very clear.
Thus as I stated above - many more 2nd class tickets.
They have laptop tables, power outlets , and large luggage racks, certainly comfortable.
Those having used this service would be aware of this fact.
Poster not familiar with the train does not know about the kids movie program available to all classes.
Most importantly , the railjet train has limited service routes and in some areas limited speeds due to track up grades.
Many other longer distance train service in Austria exists using rolling stock much different than the Railjet service - Intercity - EC etc.
These are older cars many now with upgrades but where the difference between 1st and second class is even more limited.
If one takes the time to read posts , I clearly state above in my initial post.
first sentence
" Re Austrian Rail System "
My comments clearly made regarding this system not another.
Feb 25th, 2011, 07:33 AM
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Premium class mentioned above with limited seating requires a extra fee for ridership over and above First Class ticket. This is not probably mentioned in Wikipedia, thus poster does not know this.>
Well a railpass in first class is accepted to my knowledge on Railjets in this class without supplement - if so a great benefit of a first class pass.
And about Austrian trains - I have always considered Austrian trains to be topnotch - none better in Europe IME and if there is one country where 2nd class is nice this is it - rarely really full like I see in many other countries. So in Austria the difference between classes is less IMO than in other countries but still there is a significant difference and that is why Austrians - some at least pay more to ride there.
Well a railpass in first class is accepted to my knowledge on Railjets in this class without supplement - if so a great benefit of a first class pass.
And about Austrian trains - I have always considered Austrian trains to be topnotch - none better in Europe IME and if there is one country where 2nd class is nice this is it - rarely really full like I see in many other countries. So in Austria the difference between classes is less IMO than in other countries but still there is a significant difference and that is why Austrians - some at least pay more to ride there.
Feb 25th, 2011, 10:13 AM
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Premium class is not First Class- those with a ticket etc, for First Class must pay a supplement for Premium.
Why do you think it is a different service in a different area.
As mentioned poster obviously has not riden on this type of train.
As poster is not austrian and obviously does not live here - he is hardly one to judge why locals ride where they do on a train.
Most all here will ride in 2nd class and for good reason- they know that firat is not worth the difference in cost.
Why do you think it is a different service in a different area.
As mentioned poster obviously has not riden on this type of train.
As poster is not austrian and obviously does not live here - he is hardly one to judge why locals ride where they do on a train.
Most all here will ride in 2nd class and for good reason- they know that firat is not worth the difference in cost.
Feb 25th, 2011, 11:28 AM
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Still molker with a first class railpass you are saying I'd have to pay a supplement to ride in Premium class on Railjet - my research says that this is simply wrong and with a first-class pass I can ride in Premium class without paying. And where do you find that this is not true? Perhaps a non-Austrian knows more about this than you?
Back up what you say, please, that I cannot ride in the really pluish Premium class with my first class Eurailpass unless I pay a supplement.
Q - Have you ever ridden in Premium class? I did not think so!
Back up what you say, please, that I cannot ride in the really pluish Premium class with my first class Eurailpass unless I pay a supplement.
Q - Have you ever ridden in Premium class? I did not think so!
