Do you think London has become more American?
Oct 11th, 2005, 01:43 AM
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Do you think London has become more American?
Seeing that post on London after 20 years got me thinking. Do you think that London has become more American with all the Starbucks, TGI Fridays, Borders bookshops and even Krispy Kreme Donuts? The fact that waiters implore you to "Have a nice day" or "Enjoy your meal". Do you think it's a good thing to enjoy the familiarity of what you're used to or do you think it erodes a little bit of what is special about visiting other countries?
Oct 11th, 2005, 02:20 AM
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I frankly don't consider the presence of Starbucks, TGI Fridays, etc., a large enough force to "Americianize" any city just as I don't consider the fact that more than half the Manhattan real estate is controlled by UK business interests to be strong enough to turn New York into "London West."
I DO think it is nice to go somewhere "foreign" and have it actually BE that way when you get there!
I DO think it is nice to go somewhere "foreign" and have it actually BE that way when you get there!
Oct 11th, 2005, 02:27 AM
#3
I visited London in 1972, 1990 and then again in 2004, and there certainly seem to be many more American chain stores. On the other hand there also seem to be many more ethnic restaurants and shops of all varieties, and walking on the streets of London you encounter people speaking all languages and dressed in all types of attire from around the world. So while London seems, to an outsider, more American, it also seems more Asian, more Middle Eastern, more Eastern European...
Whether this is a good thing or not is hard to say. Of course it is sad when places all around the world become more and more alike and individual character seems to be losing ground. London, however, appears to me as a dynamic city filled with a spicy mix of cultures and, while it might not be the same city I visited in 1972, it is still unique, just in different ways.
As for "Have a nice day", this is much maligned as an Americanism, but I am not sure how it is different from "Bonne journee" in Paris or "Buona giornata" in Rome.
Londonengland, I am curious what you think about it, living in London.
Whether this is a good thing or not is hard to say. Of course it is sad when places all around the world become more and more alike and individual character seems to be losing ground. London, however, appears to me as a dynamic city filled with a spicy mix of cultures and, while it might not be the same city I visited in 1972, it is still unique, just in different ways.
As for "Have a nice day", this is much maligned as an Americanism, but I am not sure how it is different from "Bonne journee" in Paris or "Buona giornata" in Rome.
Londonengland, I am curious what you think about it, living in London.
Oct 11th, 2005, 02:33 AM
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Do you think there's a fodors.in where the matrons of
Mumbai lament that London isn't what it was now there's a curry restaurant on every corner?
Or a fodors.it upset you can buy pesto and proper Parmigiano Reggiano at every convenience store?
Or a fodors.pl, a fodors.lt or a fodors.fr weeping their hearts out that you never hear English any more in London, because the shops and buses are operated almost entirely by Lithuanians, Poles and Frenchpeople?
Of course not. These significant changes in the way this city works (and the crowds at the Paddington sushi bar are orders of magnitude bigger than at the Krispy Kreme) are just a few recent examples of what has made us special ever since we had the good fortune to get Julius Classicus as procurator after the devastation wrought by that daft, ethnocentric, genocidal, thug Boudicca.
We change. We change constantly. We adapt - mostly - what's best from the rest of the world (which is why the Paddington Krispy Kreme is so empty). And, ever since the Romans helped us get rid of Boudicca, we've had no truck with keeping things in aspic or rejecting what's foreign. We leave that to the insular bits of Europe.
If you want a theme park, go to Disney World. If you come to a real city like ours, expect it to have changed as much in the next 20 years as in the past 20.
Because if it doesn't, it'll have stopped being London.
Mumbai lament that London isn't what it was now there's a curry restaurant on every corner?
Or a fodors.it upset you can buy pesto and proper Parmigiano Reggiano at every convenience store?
Or a fodors.pl, a fodors.lt or a fodors.fr weeping their hearts out that you never hear English any more in London, because the shops and buses are operated almost entirely by Lithuanians, Poles and Frenchpeople?
Of course not. These significant changes in the way this city works (and the crowds at the Paddington sushi bar are orders of magnitude bigger than at the Krispy Kreme) are just a few recent examples of what has made us special ever since we had the good fortune to get Julius Classicus as procurator after the devastation wrought by that daft, ethnocentric, genocidal, thug Boudicca.
We change. We change constantly. We adapt - mostly - what's best from the rest of the world (which is why the Paddington Krispy Kreme is so empty). And, ever since the Romans helped us get rid of Boudicca, we've had no truck with keeping things in aspic or rejecting what's foreign. We leave that to the insular bits of Europe.
If you want a theme park, go to Disney World. If you come to a real city like ours, expect it to have changed as much in the next 20 years as in the past 20.
Because if it doesn't, it'll have stopped being London.
Oct 11th, 2005, 02:55 AM
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As for the Paddington Krispy Kreme, it is most certainly NOT always empty...I have seen lines there on many occasions.
London may be "special" in its diversity, but it is far from unique. Cities like NYC, Vancouver, Chicago, Philadelphia and now Portland, OR, are also diverse. In Dusseldorf, sushi is as popular as sausage.
As an American who lives near London and spends a lot of time there, I don't find it has become more American at all. It *is* more openly brash, crass and money oriented than I remember from my first trips, but it's a very British style of brash, flash and cash.
London may be "special" in its diversity, but it is far from unique. Cities like NYC, Vancouver, Chicago, Philadelphia and now Portland, OR, are also diverse. In Dusseldorf, sushi is as popular as sausage.
As an American who lives near London and spends a lot of time there, I don't find it has become more American at all. It *is* more openly brash, crass and money oriented than I remember from my first trips, but it's a very British style of brash, flash and cash.
Oct 11th, 2005, 02:59 AM
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Nikki - in answer to your question on what I think I admit that I can't say whether it's either a good thing or a bad thing. On the one hand I love the opportunity to get a flavour of America if I want it but on the other I mourn the erosion of individual character of a city just as I don't care for every British city having identikit high street shops.
Oct 11th, 2005, 03:03 AM
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Is London more “American”? Yes it probably is, but I think that this isn’t really the right question.
The right question would be “is London less insular”? In my lifetime I have seen many changes in London. For example not so long ago the idea of a neighbourhood Thai restaurant or noodle bar would have been highly unlikely. Now both are two-a-penny. Ditto those bloody awful Starbucks. (The only people who use Starbucks are yummy mummies, Nathans, wrong ‘uns and art students)
When I was a lad there was only one McDonalds in London – in Houndsditch and a trip there was a real treat. Needless to say modern day kids aren’t as impressed.
The same sort of thing has happened with clothes with multinationals like H+M taking over from C+A (itself a Belgian company).
This is hardly unique to London. Go to any of the worlds global cities and you will see a coming together around certain global brands. As the world’s strongest economy, many of these will be American.
Having said that London (and the other cities) still keeps its identity. We still drink in pubs, eat fish and chips and get rained on a lot, but nowadays we have the choice of Starbucks or tapas bars. There’s not much we can do about the rain though.
p.s Krispy Kreme doughnuts are truely truely foul, mind you so is sushi (it's RAW FISH for God's sake - pull yourselves together!)
The right question would be “is London less insular”? In my lifetime I have seen many changes in London. For example not so long ago the idea of a neighbourhood Thai restaurant or noodle bar would have been highly unlikely. Now both are two-a-penny. Ditto those bloody awful Starbucks. (The only people who use Starbucks are yummy mummies, Nathans, wrong ‘uns and art students)
When I was a lad there was only one McDonalds in London – in Houndsditch and a trip there was a real treat. Needless to say modern day kids aren’t as impressed.
The same sort of thing has happened with clothes with multinationals like H+M taking over from C+A (itself a Belgian company).
This is hardly unique to London. Go to any of the worlds global cities and you will see a coming together around certain global brands. As the world’s strongest economy, many of these will be American.
Having said that London (and the other cities) still keeps its identity. We still drink in pubs, eat fish and chips and get rained on a lot, but nowadays we have the choice of Starbucks or tapas bars. There’s not much we can do about the rain though.
p.s Krispy Kreme doughnuts are truely truely foul, mind you so is sushi (it's RAW FISH for God's sake - pull yourselves together!)
Oct 11th, 2005, 03:43 AM
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Flanner is right on.
Everyone feels differently about this but it is very common to hear many laments about the loss of "Britishness" in Britain...Also the loss of "Englishness" but thats a detail that I'll group with "Britishness" for this purpose. However, as flanner points out, the greatest "threat" (if one is to see it this way) is hardly americanisation.
Generally, those who are threatened or bothered by the loss of "Britishness" see Asian influences as the problem. American things and ideas are generally quite well received (politics aside). anyway, many things mentioned are seen as international things rather than american. does anyone actually consider coca-cola or burger king american anymore?
I wouldn't worry about krispy creme as they will soon be dead here as they are in the US. the only reason for the raging success was that they were hard to get and seen as trendy - a great business model for the short term. i don't think it's so cool anymore for stars to talk so fondly about something that you can get on any street corner. so some like their doughnuts but their huge growth was fuelled by much more than their food. in london, they are (were) seen as something trendy from america. this too will pass.
likewise, starbucks, which charges more than other quality coffee chains here, is frequented by tourists from places without starbucks, americans who want something familiar, and trendy types whose tastes are fickle.
i'm not implying that all american things will fail but that like everything, the individual popularity of things will fluctuate and i don't think there is a trend for everythign to suddenly turn american.
Everyone feels differently about this but it is very common to hear many laments about the loss of "Britishness" in Britain...Also the loss of "Englishness" but thats a detail that I'll group with "Britishness" for this purpose. However, as flanner points out, the greatest "threat" (if one is to see it this way) is hardly americanisation.
Generally, those who are threatened or bothered by the loss of "Britishness" see Asian influences as the problem. American things and ideas are generally quite well received (politics aside). anyway, many things mentioned are seen as international things rather than american. does anyone actually consider coca-cola or burger king american anymore?
I wouldn't worry about krispy creme as they will soon be dead here as they are in the US. the only reason for the raging success was that they were hard to get and seen as trendy - a great business model for the short term. i don't think it's so cool anymore for stars to talk so fondly about something that you can get on any street corner. so some like their doughnuts but their huge growth was fuelled by much more than their food. in london, they are (were) seen as something trendy from america. this too will pass.
likewise, starbucks, which charges more than other quality coffee chains here, is frequented by tourists from places without starbucks, americans who want something familiar, and trendy types whose tastes are fickle.
i'm not implying that all american things will fail but that like everything, the individual popularity of things will fluctuate and i don't think there is a trend for everythign to suddenly turn american.
Oct 11th, 2005, 04:12 AM
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Talking about insularity.
Sushi is raw fish forsooth!
Have a look at the article on Sushi at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushi
"Outside Japan, sushi is often taken to mean raw fish. It is sometimes confused with sashimi, which is delicately sliced seafood served with only a dipping sauce."
Sushi is raw fish forsooth!
Have a look at the article on Sushi at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushi
"Outside Japan, sushi is often taken to mean raw fish. It is sometimes confused with sashimi, which is delicately sliced seafood served with only a dipping sauce."
Oct 11th, 2005, 04:15 AM
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This issue isn't London becoming America. It's that all big cities are becoming more like each other. With the large influx of immigrants into most of the worlds big cities, they are losing their national character. The Asians who move to London, for example, didn't grow up with British culture, have no particular ties to it.
What you get in place of the national culture is a single lowest common demoninator culture, which is largely American, being spread by American movies, TV and media. This is abetted by globalization of the world economy with the same stores an businesses, not always America, popping up everywhere.
What you get in place of the national culture is a single lowest common demoninator culture, which is largely American, being spread by American movies, TV and media. This is abetted by globalization of the world economy with the same stores an businesses, not always America, popping up everywhere.
Oct 11th, 2005, 04:20 AM
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A KRispy Kreme has opened near me and while there is usually a few fascinated people watching (through the window) the doughnut production line, it never gets that busy inside. I love doughnuts but they look disgusting. I'm off to the sea front for a bag of proper hot just emerged from the oil doughnuts with sugar. None of that gross icing/glazing stuff. Makes my teeth itch just to look at it.
Oct 11th, 2005, 04:36 AM
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Never underestimate these feelings being heightened by the common language whether one considers it good or bad or in the middle.
In many respects, many German cities are more like american cities than London yet most Americans wouldn't recognize it as such. You know why? Because they can't speak German..
I know and please forgive me if this annoys anybody when I return to London after a trip on the continent, I almost feel like I'm home...no more language problems. Walk into Mickey D's say 2 cheeseburgers, fries and a diet coke (no not coca light) and they know exactly what you're talking about.
I know sometimes I lose patience when waiting on a queue say at a tube station and having to wait as some "foreigner" unable to speak English tries to make his or her needs known and I can walk right up and tell the clerk just what I need. Go down into the underground system and I can read all the signs, all the advertisements. Can't do that in Paris, can't do that in Berlin, can't do that in Warsaw.
And even this business that the languages have some different words, well we all see each other's movies, each other's telly and I don't think that many Americans don't know what a lift is or what it means to queue (as opposed to an elevator or to line up).
So yes in this era of globalizaton one can understand why many might feel London is becoming more and more like New York but it also depends on your own upbringing and view point.
I know as a life long New York boy, I feel perfectly at home in London. My friends from London feel perfectly at home in New York.
I suspect Brits who come to New York who live in the country might feel intimidated but those who live in London visiting New York will feel perfectly at home, be amazed at some things (low prices, a/c functioning in the subway) and dismayed by others.
In many respects, many German cities are more like american cities than London yet most Americans wouldn't recognize it as such. You know why? Because they can't speak German..
I know and please forgive me if this annoys anybody when I return to London after a trip on the continent, I almost feel like I'm home...no more language problems. Walk into Mickey D's say 2 cheeseburgers, fries and a diet coke (no not coca light) and they know exactly what you're talking about.
I know sometimes I lose patience when waiting on a queue say at a tube station and having to wait as some "foreigner" unable to speak English tries to make his or her needs known and I can walk right up and tell the clerk just what I need. Go down into the underground system and I can read all the signs, all the advertisements. Can't do that in Paris, can't do that in Berlin, can't do that in Warsaw.
And even this business that the languages have some different words, well we all see each other's movies, each other's telly and I don't think that many Americans don't know what a lift is or what it means to queue (as opposed to an elevator or to line up).
So yes in this era of globalizaton one can understand why many might feel London is becoming more and more like New York but it also depends on your own upbringing and view point.
I know as a life long New York boy, I feel perfectly at home in London. My friends from London feel perfectly at home in New York.
I suspect Brits who come to New York who live in the country might feel intimidated but those who live in London visiting New York will feel perfectly at home, be amazed at some things (low prices, a/c functioning in the subway) and dismayed by others.
Oct 11th, 2005, 04:45 AM
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walkinaround, sorry, but if you think Starbucks is going away anytime soon, you are way off the mark.
Consider:
Starbucks Announces Strong September and Fiscal Year 2005 Revenues
Comparable Store Sales Increase 10 Percent in September; 14th Consecutive Year of Comparable Store Sales Growth of 5 Percent or Greater
Starbucks Corporation (Nasdaq
BUX) today reported consolidated net revenues of $653 million for the five-week period ended October 2, 2005, an increase of 5 percent from consolidated net revenues of $625 million for the six-week period in fiscal 2004. Net revenues increased 25 percent when calculated on a comparative five-week basis for September in both fiscal 2005 and 2004.
On a comparable store sales basis (stores open for at least 13 months), sales at Company-operated stores increased 10 percent for the five weeks ended October 2, 2005, compared to the five-week period ended September 26, 2004. Comparable store sales increased 8 percent for the 52 weeks ended October 2, 2005, compared to the 52 weeks ended September 26, 2004. Comparable store sales growth is calculated excluding the sixth week of fiscal September 2004.
"We are very pleased by the double digit same store sales growth in September but we expect comparable store sales growth to return to our longer-term three to seven percent target range in October," stated Michael Casey, chief financial officer at Starbucks.
For the 52 weeks ended October 2, 2005, consolidated net revenues were $6.4 billion, an increase of 20 percent from consolidated net revenues of $5.3 billion for the 53 weeks ended in fiscal 2004. Net revenues increased 23 percent when calculated on a comparative 52-week basis for both fiscal 2005 and 2004.
---
Motley Fool rated Starbucks as the *best* stock buy of the latter 20th century, outshining even Microsoft.
I see the crowds at the Starbucks in Basel, Vienna, and London...there are more locals than tourists and it's not just trendoids. You can look down your nose at Starbucks customers, as David West does, but SB doesn't care. They're laughing all the way to the bank.
Consider:
Starbucks Announces Strong September and Fiscal Year 2005 Revenues
Comparable Store Sales Increase 10 Percent in September; 14th Consecutive Year of Comparable Store Sales Growth of 5 Percent or Greater
Starbucks Corporation (Nasdaq
BUX) today reported consolidated net revenues of $653 million for the five-week period ended October 2, 2005, an increase of 5 percent from consolidated net revenues of $625 million for the six-week period in fiscal 2004. Net revenues increased 25 percent when calculated on a comparative five-week basis for September in both fiscal 2005 and 2004. On a comparable store sales basis (stores open for at least 13 months), sales at Company-operated stores increased 10 percent for the five weeks ended October 2, 2005, compared to the five-week period ended September 26, 2004. Comparable store sales increased 8 percent for the 52 weeks ended October 2, 2005, compared to the 52 weeks ended September 26, 2004. Comparable store sales growth is calculated excluding the sixth week of fiscal September 2004.
"We are very pleased by the double digit same store sales growth in September but we expect comparable store sales growth to return to our longer-term three to seven percent target range in October," stated Michael Casey, chief financial officer at Starbucks.
For the 52 weeks ended October 2, 2005, consolidated net revenues were $6.4 billion, an increase of 20 percent from consolidated net revenues of $5.3 billion for the 53 weeks ended in fiscal 2004. Net revenues increased 23 percent when calculated on a comparative 52-week basis for both fiscal 2005 and 2004.
---
Motley Fool rated Starbucks as the *best* stock buy of the latter 20th century, outshining even Microsoft.
I see the crowds at the Starbucks in Basel, Vienna, and London...there are more locals than tourists and it's not just trendoids. You can look down your nose at Starbucks customers, as David West does, but SB doesn't care. They're laughing all the way to the bank.
Oct 11th, 2005, 05:04 AM
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XYZ123: I think almost the opposite from you. Whilst the common language does make thing seem superficially similar, it also hides a vast gulf.
I have always maintained that Britain has more in common with the likes of France Holland and Germany than the USA. We share a similar political outlook (well maybe not with the French), have similar lifestyle aspirations, play the same games etc. Whereas America really is a foreign country – weird legal system, baffling political system, strange (to us) attitudes to religion, puritanical approach to alcohol and sex etc etc.
Where as we northern Europeans like to get drunk and look at boobies on the telly, and sleep late on Sunday mornings (well I do anyway).
On another topic sushi is RAW FISH with COLD STICKY RICE. How is that a good idea?
I have always maintained that Britain has more in common with the likes of France Holland and Germany than the USA. We share a similar political outlook (well maybe not with the French), have similar lifestyle aspirations, play the same games etc. Whereas America really is a foreign country – weird legal system, baffling political system, strange (to us) attitudes to religion, puritanical approach to alcohol and sex etc etc.
Where as we northern Europeans like to get drunk and look at boobies on the telly, and sleep late on Sunday mornings (well I do anyway).
On another topic sushi is RAW FISH with COLD STICKY RICE. How is that a good idea?
Oct 11th, 2005, 05:17 AM
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David: "Whereas America really is a foreign country".....would you please rephrase that to say "Whereas the United States really is a foreign country"!
As a North American, this Canadian doesn`t like being lumped in.
And I agree.......Raw Fish is Yuck!
As a North American, this Canadian doesn`t like being lumped in.
And I agree.......Raw Fish is Yuck!
Oct 11th, 2005, 05:22 AM
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Sushi is NOT raw fish..sushi is the RICE. Not all fish or items listed as sushi are raw..fresh and salt water eel for example. Sashimi is raw fish. Starbucks stock just split last week..oh lucky me!!!!
Now, Krispy Kreme..I just don't get it. When they opened the store in Reno a couple years ago the lines were around the block.
Now, Krispy Kreme..I just don't get it. When they opened the store in Reno a couple years ago the lines were around the block.
