Do stop signs in Italy and the UK have the same meaning as in the US?

The way the drivers in Italy respond to signs, means that a stop sign, or a red light for that matter, is just a suggestion to stop.
My brother in law said to me that there is no reason to stop if no other auto is around.

The stop sign means exactly the same thing. As in the US many drivers don't comply - or do this fake "rolling stop" thing. If seen by police it can get you a ticket there just like here.

One of the most dangerous things that sloppy drivers do - anywhere.

Maybe because we were in Umbria where there probably are many more stop signs than traffic lights, the disregard for those signs were so obvious to us. Many times we watched cars that never even hesitated at the stop sign as we approached the intersection.

We live between DC and Baltimore so know to drive defensively but in general drivers here do observe the stop signs

nytraveler, we thought the drivers on the autoroutes were very predictable which we liked, fast drivers but everyone stayed to the right unless passing, which is as it should be.

The most dangerous driving we saw was to and from Norcia through the mountain tunnels---several drivers passed within those long poorly lit tunnels, with a single lane each side of the solid line, now THAT was absolutely crazy dangerous!! Deborah

Lived in Europe as a kid and just got back from a trip to Italy so I'll try to add a bit of perspective. The quick response to your question is that a stop sign means stop _period _ and when visiting another country, you are well advised to obey all traffic signs. if you are rear ended by obeying a traffic stop (unlikely) they _will_ prosecute the one who rear-ends you.
That being said, there is a bit of difference in philosphy in Europe over driving licensure and law enforcement. It is true they tend to enforce driving laws less in Europe than here. On the other hand, obtaining and maintaining licensure requries demonstration of a higher skill level that that is required in the states. Here, driving is percieved almost as a right, while in Europe, it is a priveledge to be earned. If you cannot demonstrate ongoing REAL proficiency, you cannot obtain and maintain your license. Ergo, within each particular country, certain driving behaviours become expected and when everyone acts consistently within that behavior, everything is fine, even if it seems they have disregard for some traffic laws, like speed limits or stop signs. Since an American cannot know all the nuances of some of these informal "laws" it is always best to conform to known laws as best as one can . . . . and take the train as much as possible Luckily, I managed to survive a driving trip from Venice through Tuscany to Rome wihtout incident, although I did once have to back a car through a short "pedestrian only" alley to pick up some luggage - praying fervently - including unknown tongues - that the local "carabinieri" were not around. Prayers seemed to ahve worked

I lived in Heidelberg for five years. I know that Germans tend to jump the gun a little when they know the light is about to turn green. Americans are more likely to go through on a yellow light,not a good combination if both happened at the same time.

The German authorities put traffic cameras in two intersections through which many Americans drove on their way to or from work. I was ticketed once when I ran a yellow light and was not all the way through the intersection when the light turned red.

I was also ticketed once very late at night when I parked where I saw many other cars parking. A couple of months later I received a ticket for parking in the wrong place, and the fine was much higher than I would have expected. I was told the higher fine was the result of my not paying the fine when I first got the ticket.

When I went to the police station, I protested, saying that there had been no ticket on the windshield. The policeman told me that since I knew I'd parked in a no parking place, I should have turned myself in. Huh? I never did figure out if there ever really was a ticket put on my windshield. At times there were negative feelings about Americans among the German community.

I recall one of the faculty wives, who was German, but was driving a car with an American forces license plate, yelling at a policeman that he wouldn't be giving her a ticket if she didn't have US Forces plates.

One thing to be wary of is drinking, even just a little, before driving. That will result in the loss of the driver's privilege for a year, even on the first ticket.

I can't comment on the law in Italy (though I've never had to slow down there to avoid drivers popping out across stop signs, and I wonder how the poster knew poppers-out HAD infringed a sign): but in the UK Stop signs, and Stop markings on roads are, in theory, mandatory.

However, police have better things to do with their time than hang around waiting to entrap Stop sign jumpers. I've absolutely never heard of anyone being ticketed for not stopping, unless:
- Not stopping had contributed to an accident (in which case, there'd be a criminal prosecution), or
- Someone had jumped the sign, forced an oncoming driver to take evasive action and there was a policeman around at the time, or
- As part of a highly publicised blitz on a specific area if there'd been public complaints about widespread rolling stops.

I wonder, though, if the poster's confusing two different things here - because I really can't see how it's possible to observe signs facing oncoming traffic in a road at right angles to the one you're travelling on.

Rolling stops at some signs are common in Europe, tolerated as long as they don't affect oncoming traffic and hardly ever create accidents. But unsigned junctions are far, far more common, much of Continental Europe gives priority, in the absence of clear contrary indications, to drivers coming from the right and so it's not at all unusual to find drivers - totally legally - popping out from the right in places foreign drivers might imagine the drivers would wait till traffic had passed.

Did the poster familiarise herself with Italian laws and signing on who's got the right of way? Because the post strongly hints to me of someone blaming Italians for her own poor preparation.

As with everything in Italy it depends in which part you are. The further north you are generally the more respectful they are of traffic signs and the highway code (or whatever the traffic laws are called in the States). In Italy a Stop sign does actually mean stopping although many do roll through if the road is clear (or they think it is!). A red banded triangle pointed downwards means give way.

As always the rules in Naples are only for visitors. Even other Italians are surprised when driving there and every so often there are reports on TV or examples of their disregard for traffic rules. I remember once seeing a report on a one way street which was always being used in both directions. The TV crew were asking the offenders why they used it the wrong way. The answers were hilarious and, being Napolitans, always inventive. The crew even caught a police car going the wrong way! On another occasion the film crew came across an intersection where the traffic lights were not working but traffic was moving across as if nothing had happened. They reported it and discovered that the lights had not worked for 6 months!

In Florence, traffic lights are compulsory. In Rome they are advisory. In Naples they are Christmas decorations.

Bert4545 - nicely put!

Bert4545

Your comment reminds me of an old Italian joke as told by Italians.

Question - What is a 740?

Answers -

Milanese - A tax return! (as it was then)

Roman - A Volvo! (there was a model called the 740)

Sicilian - What? That calibre doesn't exist!

All of what Flanner said, plus the following.

Stop signs are much less common in the U.K., and most junctions have a "Give Way" (= U.S. "Yield") sign. Many junctions, however, have no sign at all, although the lines on the road will usually tell you who has right of way. Don't forget that we have many more junctions which are not at 90 degrees, because our roads are not laid out on a grid.

Where stop signs exist, it is usually because of poor visibility, and you have to come to a virtual stop to see if there are any vehicles on the major road. A dead stop is not expected, and is seen as holding up other traffic.

My observation is that the U.S. is much more concerned about laws and their literal enforcement than is the case in most European countries. This is not just about traffic laws. Most non-Americans of mature years will have a story about being asked for ID before being served a beer or a glass of wine. It seems to us to be a bit of a joke.

chartley

Every time I return to the UK I realise how crazy things have become with supermarkets asking for ID when purchasing alcohol when clearly the purchaser is over the legal age. What gets me is when the problem is not me - I am in my fifties - but because the person working the till is underage! He is the one having to ask permission to complete the sale!

I think the minimum age for selling alcohol in a U.K. supermarket is 18. In my experience the "asking permission" is fairly perfunctory, and consists of waving the item in the direction of an older colleague. Would someone of that age be allowed to sell alcohol in the U.S.?

lack of enforcement has produced many drivers who think anything goes in many places/countries.

If the police start patrolling more and ticketing in PERSON, I assume these driving habits will slowly be rectified for more prudent and safer ones.

Cashiers in the US, at least in Massachusetts where I live, who are not above the legal drinking age of 21 can not ring up alcohol. They will call over an older cashier to ring up that one item.

My observation of drivers in Rome was that lane markings were for advisory purposes only.

flanner, this OP could tell the cars were not going to stop because we were on the main road and the cars were on the cross roads that were supposed to stop---we saw them coming from either the right or left side of the road and most didn't even make an effort. If we could see them they could see us, and it's not like we were driving slow, it was like we weren't even there Deborah

Thanks for the comments and sharing your experiences and insights.

I don't think in the US the police are lurking waiting for small traffic violations but if someone does a violation and it's noticed, the officer can choose to ticket them.

We drove 9 days through Umbria on small roads between towns which had many cross roads from even smaller towns usually controlled by stop signs, that is the reason we were made aware of the driving habits. It became a running joke trying to guess who would stop for the signs and who wouldn't---we figured the ones who did stop were "foreigners" like us Deborah

Hi DA,

>I find it hard to believe that stopping for a stop sign is optional in Italy.<

If you are Italian, all traffic regulations are suggestions.

PS,

When I was at the UofMd we collected over $1M/yr in traffic tickets.

ira - I would not agree. There are notable differences from one part of Italy to another. Generally ( and this is a generalisation) the further one travels the worse things are. However, all Italians respect the traffic signs etc when they are in Switzerland!

Chartley wrote:
Where stop signs exist, it is usually because of poor visibility, and you have to come to a virtual stop to see if there are any vehicles on the major road. A dead stop is not expected, and is seen as holding up other traffic.
I am not 100% certain, but I think Chartley is speaking from a UK perspective, in which case he is dead wrong and would have failed his driving test if had only come to a "virtual stop" at a stop sign. A dead stop is very much expected. Our stop signs used to be a different shape from all other traffic signs so that they could still be recognised even if covered by snow. They also had a circle around a triangle on top. That was before we joined the EC (or EEC or EU or whatever they want to call it this afternoon).

Bert

I was writing from a UK perspective, and I was referring to common practice, not what might be required to pass a driving test. I have the misfortune to live on a road where learner drivers practice their 3-point turns, and am very aware that the driving test requires all sorts of things which are not the way more experienced people drive.

My experience of driving in the USA is that people there are very concerned to come to a dead stop, in a way that is not the practice in Britain.

In California if a policeperson observers you not making a complete stop they issue a citation. A family member who was with a PD said to always count to three after stopping at a stop sign so there is no "if ands or buts" about whether you properly stopped or not. I received one citation quite some years ago as guess I didn't follow the "count to three" rule. I didn't exactly make a California stop but evidently I didn't stop long enough to please the cop.

Italy..some dear friends were on a main road and were broadsided by a driver coming from their left who went through the stop sign. In a way it was rather amusing as thankfully they were only somewhat bruised and didn't get seriously hurt although their car was damaged. The other driver was a middle age doctor. He checked out my friends as to what injuries he caused while the police wrote out a citation for him. My friend made the comment "nothing like having a physical exam along side the roadway", lol.

The "priorité à droit" rule must be the craziest rule of the road ever invented. Having realised this, the French have a special sign for when this rule does not apply, so have to spend many euros putting them up all over the place.

I'm with Bert4545 on all of this (that comment about christmas lights in Napoli is hilarious-- never heard it before!)

Even in Northern Italy, one goes with the flow, not by rules, even if you are not native born Italian. Most places in Italy, if there were stoplights, right of ways, blah blah -- traffic would be paralyzed. That said, I have Roman friends who say "North of the Maremma, it's Scandanavia"

The amazing thing to me is how Italian traffic in all directions comes to a dead stop the instant a grandmother's foot leaves the curb and enters the roadway.

Isn't there some town in Scotland where they removed all the stop signs and accidents went down by 100 percent? If you actually have to pay attention and assume nothing, you drive more safely.

Having visited Naples I did also enjoy the comment from Bert about the Christmas decorations.

When Ron and I travel we enjoy observing our surroundings, and I will say that the drivers in Umbria gave us plenty to talk about.

We were in northern France last fall in the small towns outside of Lille and Ron and I had several discussions about the prioite a doit, because we always thought the main road had that right---in those small towns it seemed everyone but us had the right of way---and that was just an observation not a driving problem for us Deborah

I have to say that our obsevations were that most traffic rules were just suggestions in Italy. In Palermo it was everone for themselves. We took the train from Palermo to the airport and then dropped the car back off at the airport because we were a little afraid to drive there.

Germany:
- Not stopping at a stop sign 10€ fine
- and endangering others 50€ plus 3 points
- caused accident 60€ plus 3 points

Drinking and driving

- over 0.3%% and caused accident
7 points, license revoked 6 months to 5 years. Max penalty 5 years in prison

So if you want to break the law, better chose not to stop at a stop sign than to drink and drive.

Forgot, the minimum fine for drivers under 21 years of age no matter how high blood alcohol level is, is 250€. No alcohol at all for drivers under 21 years allowed.

To the OP, Italians are notoriously lax drivers, but that doesn't mean you should follow their example.

Speaking as someone who has homes both in the UK and Italy (Southern Italy at that, where I sometimes wonder if they even have driving tests), you would be best advised to stick to the rules: stop means stop.

British drivers tend to follow the rules and if you roll through a red light you're likely to be met with a barrage of abuse from other drivers, at the very least. If a police car sees you (unlikely, but can happen) you WILL be stopped, fined and required to present your details at a police station. Even in Italy, you are 'expected' to stop - some intersections now have hidden cameras which would result in an automated fine.

It's not worth it.

kate, to do anything but a complete stop at a stop sign would never occur to my husband. I am married to a most law abiding person Deborah

Kate. You describe what happens if you go past a red traffic light in the U.K. The question was about "Stop" signs, where there are no traffic lights. As others (and I) have said, a rolling stop is not taken seriously as an offence, unless you do it when taking your driving test.

There is none of this "count to three" outside the USA, which is why traffic moves more quickly in Europe.

Going back to the OP, the significant phrase for me was "on university property". In the UK, we would think of this as a private road, and traffic regulation unlikely to be enforced by fines and legalistic procedures as on the public road. In that situation a stop sign would be taken as advisory, subject, of course, to your insurance company treating you as a BF if an accident results.

I'm probably unusual in the UK in that a stop sign really means stop dead to me. Where I did my driving test most of the routes included some 'stop' signs so it was drummed into me by my instructor that I had to stop and PUT THE HANDBRAKE ON(!) to make it totally obvious, before moving off a couple of seconds later. I don't do the handbrake any more but I still have the habit of a proper stop.

Most people do a slow rolling stop unless it really has poor visibility.

In Edinburgh it's "legal" to stop with your front wheels on the stop line and to pass through red lights if you would have otherwise had to apply the brakes

While not strictly a sign, this would be a good place to point out that crosswalks in Rome are meaningless. Do not delude yourself that drivers will stop or even slow down if you wait at one.

Also, as best as I could tell from my three weeks in Italy, Vespas obey no traffic laws whatsoever. Ignoring stop signs and red lights, lining up 5 abreast in a 2 lane road at an intersection, speeding(admittedly hard to be sure about this one), driving on sidewalks ... you name, I saw a Vespa do it.

In a number of cities in Northern Italy such as Milan it is becoming ever more common to have traffic cameras to regulate passage with red traffic lights (not stop signs) and automatically photograph the license plates of any infractions so that tickets and relative fines can be issued without a police officer needing to be present. Similar methods are also used to enforce the ZTLs (Zona Traffico Limitato - areas limited to local authorized traffic) in the central downtown areas.