Do men travel to Europe in groups? Are they afraid to ask for directions?

This may sound bizarre, but I have heard feedback from men (I am a woman) that indicates they are afraid that going to an event with another guy (say a festival or opera), let alone a trip, might cause them to be perceived as gay. That, of course, is too scary a thought.

I know men over 50 who have gone golfing in Scotland without any women in tow. But they aren't the kind to come here and do their own planning and research. They have people to make plans for them, like secretaries and travel agents.

Our women won't let us go without them! (At least my wife won't!)

I beg to differ ! Here is my trip report from 2000

http://www.slowtrav.com/tr/tripreport.asp?tripid=104

WillTravel

No, I don't think it sounds bizarre, given what American culture is. It reminds me of a hilarious sequence in Planes, Trains and Automobiles where Steve Martin and John Candy are forced by circumstances to travel together for several days and go into full panic mode when they wake up in a motel room and discover they've mistakenly snuggled up in their sleep to each other in their sleep. Actually, the entire movie is about the comedy and poignancy of men being kept from developing friendships with other men after a certain point in life.

cherylj,

That's interesting. I do know women executives who go to travel planners.

Bob, are you differing with me or macanimals? Can't tell. From looking at your trip report, it looks like you were able to succeed in being allowed to go where macanimals has thus far failed!

Bob, do you know any men who go traveling where it doesn't involve sports? Just curious.

macanimals,

I wouldn't mind if my husband traveled without me. And he does go to visit longtime friends in other countries without me, even though I like his friends and their wives. I'm invited, but don't always feel like making the trip.

But doesn't anybody else notice the disproportionate number of posts of women travelers who identify themselves first and foremost as women travelers?

Yes, see above. And, why are you up so late?

Also -- why so many mother-daughter trips but not father-son or father-daughter or mother-son?

Is it a difference in who travels or a difference in who posts on Fodor's?

bob, what's it to you?

PS, bob: Do you think it was unusual that you took a European trip with a male friend? Do you have male clients who do the same?

The answer to this is sooo simple - Men don't ask those questions, because being practical, down to earth folks, they already know the answer to all those questions beforehand. No need to ask, for advice on a message board, when the answer is already crystal clear

Women otoh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCqcMOB6STc

logos, right. That's why I asked!

I think it might be the type of travel as well - most of the men I know who go on trips without their immediate families go on camping, fishing, and/or golfing trips.

Zep--

I guess I deserved your "allowed" comment as my comment was done "tongue in cheek". I have traveled extensively alone when necessary and never consulted this forum as it was mostly on legal business and I had adequate resources. My wife has traveled at least as much w/o me and we are comfortable with that but when it comes to pleasure, we like to do it together. I wouldn't consider a trip with male friends as a "success".

As to your original query--perhaps the women inquiring feel vulnerable or need assurance as to their plan or itinerary--just a guess. Perhaps women outlive men and are more likely to have opportunities to travel with others in similar situations. But it is all conjecture, isn't it.

Most of the men I know don't do any of those things (I'm probably unusual in the kind of men I know.)

It's interesting to me that I know more than one woman who has announced to her family she was going abroad for a vacation, with friends, and would not have allowed family objections to stop her, but I do think men have a harder time saying that unless it involves something women are certain they don't want to do.

I was interested that Bob's fishing trip involved going to the Amalfi coast and Taormina. Some women might have complained about being left behind on such famously romantic destinations.

But you'd think with all the freedom to mix it up these days, and obviously so many men enjoying Europe when they go with their wives, that at least some would get into their 50, 60s and 70s and be unattached and want to go to Europe.

Perhaps they always find women willing to go with them if they pay? I do know some men who've done that.

Now that you mention it, the only men traveling together groups I know or hear of are organized around an activity such as golf, baseball games, hunting/fishing treks, and the like, or maybe a weekend in Las Vegas. I don't think it's just a Fodors board phenomenon.

macanimals,

We were posting at the same time.

It's interesting you wouldn't consider a trip with male friends a "success." I honestly don't think about it one way or the other.

I don't think it's just posting habits. Plenty of men come here to ask questions about their family trips. But there are scads and scads of tour companies offering tours to women -- and almost none to men. I know women feel less safe -- for good reasons. But I am surprised how often women come on here and ask questions about a perfectly safe and conventional itinerary -- like, a week in London -- and feel compelled to identify themselves as females.

annw,

Yes, that's my impression. Although I do know a great many men who would and have traveled culturally by themselves, before they were married. And a few who traveled with one other bud. But that usually ends with marriage.

Why would men travel together if it wasn't for sports. To go to museums?? Oh guys, come over here and look at the pickasso.

If we're going, were going for sports. And beer. And we can find those without asking here.

Almost all my male friends are artists of one sort or another: paint, sculpt, musicians. None play sports other than fitness activity. None drink beer. All drink wine. All of us have spent the majority of our time together in museums, and it would be very common for them to meet another male friend in the cities where they live in the US to go to a museum exhibit.

But I would be surprised if four of them decided to pick up without their wives and go cultural sightseeing for a week. Although a few of them who no longer live in the same city will sometimes arrange get togethers in one of their homes for long weekends, etc., just to sit around and catch up with each other's work -- and often some of the wives skip those get-togethers.

But almost all the women have traveled with other women for cultural sightseeing abroad.

Although I suppose we could go to a sports museum. Or a beer museum. We are not against museums per se.

All my male friends save one choose museums and concerts or in some cases theatre over sports events. (The one exception is British soccer maniac, in addition to being a maniac for art museums, historic churches, concerts, theatre etc in London).

I may be unusual in knowing so many men who prefer cultural activity to sports and beer. But it's plain to me reading travel reports written by men on Fodor's that many men do not travel for sports and beer, and wouldn't ever, even if they were traveling with other men. But they don't travel with other men, not even to do the cultural activities they enjoy doing when they aren't traveling (and often enjoy with male friends).

Bingo !

We have a new record by Zeppole--breaking her own record.
Would you believe 15 posts in the same thread in just over one hour--and all well after midnight in Italy. When do you sleep, and are you taking your meds?

My trip with Ed was not a " fishing" trip. It was a trip to see and visit fishing villages on the coast--much different.

Male DNA is configured in such a way as to NEVER ask questions. Men NEVER ask directions.

They just buy a GPS instead, get lost, and then request their female travelling companion to ask for directions.

I speak with authority here - I NEVER ask directions.
But I've seen some interesting sights while lost.

bobthenavigator: "We have a new record by Zeppole--breaking her own record.

Would you believe 15 posts in the same thread in just over one hour"

That's the middle distance record. She also set a sprint record - 5 consecutive posts in 10 minutes 7:21-7:31. The old record was 4 set on 256 different occasions . . . . .

Women need advice and tour guides.
Men give advice and are tour guides.

Women will walk down Champs-Elysees and ask for directions to the Arc de Triomphe twice. Just to be on the safe side.
Men will stand in front of a building in Salzburg and tell their family that that was the place where Mozart played the piano in public first time - next to an inscript on the wall saying "erected 1810".

Only 2 groups of men go on holiday together - stag parties & golf parties.

The only directions they need is "where's the bar"

What alanRow said. On the Munich boards at Trip Advisor, there are often posts about where to go/where to party for a stag party in Munich.

s

Do you remember double dating when you were in college? Neither girl would go to the WC without the other one. Why do they do that? It must be a mammal gender thing. Cows can graze in the same pasture but bulls gotta fight.

Some men I know also go hunting and fishing together. I guess they don't talk until they start drinking.

I go solo on my trips to Europe. I meet locals and other travelers, have a good time, and adios. A partner, male or female, would just slow me down. I go to Europe to experience the place, not to yakky yak with someone I already know.

spaarne, you made me laugh! I swear I was 30 yrs old before I realized that I had, for decades, been missing out on clues that it was time for a pee party.


I used to travel solo, couldn't imagine doing it differently. If I was feeling uncertain, I'd read or pack a guidebook, then mostly go look around and see for myself.
Since becoming a mama--another adventure I'm undertaking on my own--I haven't traveled that way. My son and I have always communicated constantly, and if I would've had to figure out a place to stay or even where to go for an afternoon nap or when the museum was closed when he was a baby/toddler, it would've been a disaster. I would've been stressed, forgotten something or missed him dropping an item on the street. He would've felt my tension and raised it by getting upset... He's older now (just started 1st grade!) so I can certainly tell him to hang on a minute, let me figure this out, but I still am more comfortable traveling with him after having done too much research, generally start a file 3 to 18 mos in advance, throw things in as I come across them, then sit down and map them all out a few weeks before the trip. It's also fun these days to involve him (a bit) in trip planning--after I've done my groundwork and can offer a choice of 2 or 3 options that take similar amounts of time, energy and money--space museum or cultural history. Having done the research also lets me offer him choices on the fly--don't want to go to the restaurant? There's a park right over there with food vendors or whatever.

If other folks feel the same about their joint childcare/trip leader responsibilities, and if women are more involved in childrearing than men, then it makes sense that more women would be trying to plan trips.

Bob and Janis, thanks for your joking comments re: p. I won't wonder any more what's with her or if it's just me!

Peter, but you are here posting on Fodor's -- although when I think about it, you mostly direct others about Venice. Did you ask questions on Fodor's before you went?

Cowboy, most of the tour guides I have seen everywhere I've traveled are women. But I think you're on to something with the rest your post.

alan and swandav, I don't know any men who go to stag parties, but I do think there is something about travel that makes men who otherwise frequently get together with male friends to attend concerts, see art exhibits, have dinner in a gourmet restaurant, etc. NOT do exactly the same thing if it involves spending nights out of town.

spaarne, whenever I've needed to use the WC, I just went, alone if need be, even in college. And the men I know don't fight with each other or compete much. But I also think solo travel is fun -- and I think there are plenty of men who feel the same.

saacnmama, what is WITH bob and janisj? -- other than I contradict their terribly conformist travel advice all the time? And what is with you for turning as mean-spirited and sneering as them? Both of them are Fodor's addicts who are on Fodor's every single night and day recycling the same Americanized tour information over and over and over -- bob with cut and paste cliches and janis with energizer bunny nattering about Priceline and carryon -- and no one who wants to do something differing is spared their slapdowns.

I haven't had somebody try to set a bedtime for me since I was 11. But that's who bob and janis are as Fodor's posters -- everybody's clucking parent, telling them not to do anything that isn't done by them and the older generation. Looks like, saacmama, you're now identifying yourself totally as a mother, right down to your screen name, and headed the same way, building a world view consumed by parenting. Don't be surprised if your kid rebels, stays up late and races far ahead of your small world view.

Yes, bob and janisj: I think more and faster than you, and engage more directly with what's in front of my nose. And I guess I don't need as much sleep. Do you two really ever get out of the house -- or even out of your own heads for a second? People aren't all the same -- and they are not crazy if they're not like you. Why do you travel, I wonder. Never mind -- I'm not that interested.

By the way, living in Italy, it is striking how often you see groups of men socializing in fine restaurants or cafes, especially groups of men who are apparently related to each other. But also just male friends catching up. I have no idea if they travel together.

And in France, it's mostly couples.

I'm putting up separate posts here so bob and janisj have something to marvel at.

You couldn't get any of my male friends to go on a trip like that either. I think one would go for Cricket or Soccer (although in that case, his wife would be quite sad to be left out of the soccer trip, and they'd probably want her along since she's so knowledgable.) Some of my male friends, when on business-type trips, will take time with male colleagues to go to the local art museum or historic church. In Milano, I've often seen groups of men in business suits stopping to marvel at the facade of the Duomo and discuss it before hurrying on to lunch. And they didn't look embarrassed to be doing it.

But for sure, the all-male trips you describe don't sound like the type to inspire the travellers to come on this board and ask "How many pairs of socks should we pack and any good restaurant recommendations?"

PS: I think of some of the fair-sex who post censoriously on this board as the Old Fallopian Tubes.

My husband has been on all-male trips abroad and I bet none of them would ever ask for directions, but they wouldn't do it at home either. In the UK it's is a widespread joke that men won't ask for directions at all - even in an unfamilar part of their own town, never mind on holiday ! Isn't that a joking matter elsewhere ? I think it's a macho thing

As regards travel planning, IME men don't plan ahead

Do any of your husband's all-male trips involve cultural sightseeing?

My husband recently met a friend in Rome and they did nothing but culturally sightsee and go to fine restaurants, and then the friend came to visit us.

Yes, people in America joke about men not asking directions -- but I've often been stopped by men asking for directions, sometimes with their wives right next to them. And at least half the travel planners posting most often on Fodor's are men, yes? People have these gender-based ideas, but I don't think they actually track.

A real man always takes his GPS system with him, containing all those POIs.
Men don't get lost anywhere, so they don't need to ask for directions. If the GPS should stop working for any reason (She forgot to buy decent new batteries!), there's always the sun which is used to navigate.

"It's 8am and the sun is over there, so our house is in that direction!"

Women are crazy thinking a man would have any problems navigating.

Since I grew up in Southern California, I've almost always oriented myself directionally by the sun (and the moon at night). The real man I married grew up in NYC, where sun is often blocked by buildings, and never developed that trick.

So that won't work either as a gender-based theory.

There are always traitors in our midst.

I'm English.

What is this "Sun" of which you speak?

In England the water always comes from the west. You don't need something called sun.

The sun can be found here: www.thesun.co.uk

I hate asking for directions, and my DH loves to. He doesn't travel with other men, but doesn't socialize with them much either. He likes the company of women (platonically), and rarely hangs out with guys.

He was talking about flying to Florida for a weekend in December to visit friends and relatives, and suggested to a female friend that she tag along with him as she had never been to Florida and I can't go. He was very surprised when we told him that his relatives would likely think it very strange if he showed up with another woman. It had never occurred to him that it would look peculiar.

A REAL man needs just one look at a map, and will remember exactly which roads to take from A to B.

GPS is for wannabee men only. It became such a huge success since the wannabee man can claim that it's been developed as a military gadget.
No REAL man would follow the advice of a woman where to make the next turn. But have you ever met a guy who programmed his car's GPS to work with the male voice?? Wannabee men.. Q.E.D.

A real man doesn't need a map, that's the point.

persimmondeb,

My father was the same way -- although not to the extreme of not understanding that it raised eyebrows how readily he platonically bonded with women not his wife. He didn't have any opportunities to travel, although he would have liked to, but he certainly wouldn't have wanted a stag party or a sports match!

Since it was your husband's relatives who were the issue, did he tell his friend not to worry and go with her anyway?

Cowboy,

Did you know that Bob Dylan is trying to get a contract to be a GPS voice? I'm not making that up.

Cholmondley,

Did you know that Norwegians thought that England was where people went when they died because they always saw it shrouded in mist?

The sun can be found here: www.thesun.co.uk>>>>

You navigate by tits?

You foreigners have ways very different from our own.

So you live in Italy (in Camogli, of all places, the "houses of wives" town), and your male friends are artists and sculptors who gang up to visit museums together. And you stay up all night posting frantically on Fodors. And the rest of us are travel conformists. Get over it.

His friend is insisting that she really doesn't want to go to Florida, since it's hot there. We'll see what happens.

He's quite sure that his relatives won't be scandalized, since she's just a friend. He's never really gotten the idea that most people are suspicious of "friendship" between men and women.

C_W.. yes, those guys do navigate by tits.
And this is where they want to go to:
http://tinyurl.com/63byd

No tits to be found there anymore..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/discussions/forums/show/News-2.page

"Maoam is too sexy for children". Where else do you see a picture of a lemon doing it with a martian and have people complain about it.

Talking of GPS, when I am in the States and using the excellent GPS on her car, my girlfriend constantly argues with the - extremely accurate - directions given by the well informed, but disembodied, voice. Does anybody else suffer the same way ? Maybe it's just female nature to argue !

persimmondeb,

Well, I don't get it either. But I also would avoid Florida this time of year, no matter who asked!

And no surprise, here comes the angry St Cirq, trying to make other people feel bad for talking and questioning, living up to rep as all time Old Fallopian Tubes, phallus-hating Fodor's poster, scolding me for having fun at night and with cultured men!

For the record Camogli isn't the "house of wives" town, as tourist brochures say -- and of course St Cirq mindlessly repeats it! The town is actually named by its Celtic founders for a Celtic deity named Camulo or Camolio -- but no one knows how it was spelled as far as I know.

Cowboy,

No wonder I couldn't get there. I kept putting 'fooking' into the GPS

DavidSXM,

I argue all the time! But my GPS isn't accurate -- or maybe I should stop yelling "fook" at it.

I dated a man for years and years, he went to Europe regularly with his male friends and also alone with me and also with other couples. The men had been traveling together for years. Every year they went to the Cannes Film Fest for example, and I never went along, I couldn't go for family reasons. They would come back with stories of their escapades in Morocco and other places that had me in stitches. Their dynamics together were formidable, they were all happy good longtime male friends, drank wine, visited art venues, etc. Once two of them were asked to judge a beauty contest in the Middle East, things like that I would not have wanted to attend.

He would call me mid trip and say I have found the best place, we have to come here next year. Fun times for all.

Interesting! It does seem men travel together if there is a specific activity beyond general sightseeing. I know men who would probably join other men in seeking out great food itineraries in another country, or a film festival.

PS Sea Urchin, don't apologize for knowing men who are interesting if it comes to that!

Interesting. My all guy trips have been for Fantasy Football drafts, watching the NCAA Basketball Tournament in Vegas, football road trips, basketball road trips, Cooperstown Baseball Hall Of Fame weekend and golf trips. All sports related!!!! Kim and I did actually go to the Accademia in Venice without Mary and Tracy one morning. Does that count?

On our golf weekend each year, we usually do all go wine tasting together, so I guess we do have one non-related sports activity (although since it's just wine to drink when we get back to the house while watching baseball and football on television, I guess it could be determined to be sports related, too).

Maitai, you are such a great writer!

Z., for years, those male trips involved renting the same condo for a few weeks in Villefrance because they all loved the area. Two bedrooms and four men (and four beds). They would get into minor spats about snoring and too much card playing, cigar smoking, etc. but they all grouped together to try out new and favorite restaurants at night. By mid trip, one would end up sleeping on the porch to get away from snoring or clothes on the floor and they would go their separate ways sightseeing or pool or beach lounging. I never thought anything of it, I never thought men don't travel together, I guess they will if they have common interests and bonds, like Maitai and his sports, like you say. Now that I think back, they never traveled together in the USA, except visiting the one of their group who lived in Hawaii and maybe Vegas for another one.

Interesting topic and yes they were interesting!

Yelling at the GPS is perfectly o.k., only if you start arguing with it like a woman it's getting dangerous. You can keep her from arguing with it, if you chose a male voice (either Clint Eastwood (tough guy) or Robert Redford (the other guy) ). In both cases, she will be quiet.

Don't make the mistake of chosing a female voice! A male voice saves a lot of pain.

I could explain, one was the cigar smoker and this was before the days when you asked before you smoked, two were card players, one took the time to relax and mine was the most avid sightseer. They would settle their differences over wine and excellent food though and just end up calling each other pain in the arses before they planned their next trip. All such characters.

Seaurchin,

I never thought about men not traveling together until I start reading the fodor's message board!

maitai,

Yes, you and Kim count!

For 17 years a group of us (guys) would go to Reno or South Shore to gamble, drink and golf. Most have died but I still travel solo to Great Britain each year. My great wife stays home as I go during the winter and see mostly military museums, rail museums and the like. I drink tons of beer, piss a lot and eat fish and chips. What fun.

"maitai, Yes, you and Kim count!"

I will have to tell him that we are Renaissance men after all!

Do James May and Oz Clarke count?

My husband and a buddy go birding, but I guess that's kind of a sport. I'd think it was great if he went off to Europe with friends. He'd like to tour there with his band, but I can't see them getting along in any extended close proximity; all those egos.

My husband and a buddy go birding,>>>

You are aware what this means in English?

I encourage all his hobbies.

Does anyone personally know any men over 50 who have decided to go off for a European adventure without women in tow?

If this is refreshingly NOT about only straight men then the answer is yes i do know one..ME

Do YOU know any men straight or gay who get on message boards and ask "what should I wear?"

I encourage all his hobbies.>>>

Well it saves you a job.

Dukey, I don't know any women who would do that.

Cholms,

?

(Sometimes I wish I were a native English speaker.)

"Birding" is the persuit of birds. Then, instead of them laying eggs you lay them. The birds that is, not the eggs.

I have spent many happy trips with all male groups birding.

Both meanings involve Great Tits.

CW - open minded. But a bit suprised.

ps In Britain "birding" (ie bird watching) is called "twitching" which doesn't really make things any clearer.

I don't imagine the world is interested in the stokebailey sex life or lack thereof, so I won't comment.