Cannot comment on Auxerre - but we stayed for 3 nights at the Moulin des Ruats near Avallon. This is an old mill (obviously) turned into an adorable hotel with a wonderful restaurant. When we were there many couples had come from Paris for the weekend to dine here and explore the French National Nature Reserve it is situated next to.

One night looking out of the dining room we saw an ermine running along the opposite side of the stream (I thought at first it was a white cat - until I saw it start to run) and I understand that the reserve is the home of numerous wild species. We also found it very convenient for visiting Vezelay.

Sounds like it would be ideal for your hiking requirement.

You probably can't find any info on Metz for a good reason - not many people choose to visit Metz. That might tell you something about the city.

We've been to all the other cities you've mentioned during our 2 weeks in Burgundy, 3 weeks in the Jura, and 2 weeks in Alsace. Plus we've taken a day-trip to Nancy, and an overnight in Troyes. We've visited Besancon 3 times (overnight once). Dijon is our second favorite city in France - we've visited it about 5 times.

Your plan looks good good me (except for Metz - which we have not visited). We based near Beaune while in Burgundy and felt that we spent too much time in the car visiting the sites around Auxerre. So I now advise others to split the time between Auxerre and Beaune/Dijon - which is what you are doing. Your allocation is fine, except I would perhaps add a day to Alsace if you plan to visit Strasbourg. Visit Besancon on the way from Burgundy to Alsace.

Don't visit Troyes, Auxerre, Nancy, Dijon, Besancon, or Strasbourg on a Sunday or Monday morning - when shops are closed.

Stu Dudley

Given your preferences, I would suggest basing yourself in one of the Wine Route towns (such as Kaysersberg or Ricqwehr) for your stay in Alsace. You could then use these as a base for driving to the other Wine Route towns as well as Colmar or Strasbourg.

Thanks guys. A nice hotel outside of a town would be a good mix, something to consider for sure.

And Stu, your advice is why I've split my days between he two areas, so thank for that!

For Metz, it appears more interesting than Reims, as much as a visit to the Reims cathedral appeals to me. I could just stay one night near Reims, see the cathedral in the morning and add an extra day somewhere else instead of near Metz. Fort Hackenberg appeals to me as a dramatic contrast to the steady stream of gothic architecture we'll be ingesting.

Just to clarify, are you recommending we forgo an overnight in Besancon to stay the night somewhere in Alsace?

Metz is a nice visit - we don't always research places we visit and Metz was one of those spur-of-the-moment places, so I can't illuminate that for you much, but we did notice that the cathedral has Chagall windows - Marc Chagall was a Russian-Jewish artist who did a lot of stained-glass windows, many in cathedrals in the spirit of reconciliation, to replace what was destroyed after WWII. I also know these windows from the Stefansdom in Mainz. So do see the cathedral. Most of the rest of our visit was taken up with a cake shop in Metz, which had such pretty cakes in it.

We have also visited Auxerre when we stayed a weekend in Pouilly-sur-Loire, but I don't know Troyes at all - seems like a good place to base yourselves for visiting the nearby countryside. But it's small - I would find it a bit on the small side for 3 days, that's just me.

Lavandula

ttt

There are a couple of good canals near Auxerre and of course you can tase wine in Irancy, Chablis. Bikes are hireable at the tourist info office in Auxerre. There are some fine monestries at Ligny le chatel/poligny. Also fine walking down in the Morvan parc http://www.parcdumorvan.org/ and the Yonne info site http://www.tourisme-yonne.com/2010/index_direct.php?lg=en&direct=direct is a lot easier to use than the awful burgundy website

Between Bescancon and the following the river (the doubs) that cascades past there is a lovely road with winds up along the swiss border, if you get there in the spring the natural daffodils are splendid while the Franch Comte is buyable by the road side.

This chapelle is worth a visit http://www.chapellederonchamp.fr/

>>Troyes ...... But it's small - I would find it a bit on the small side for 3 days, that's just me.<<

I think he planned to stay 1 night in Troyes and 3 in Auxerre.

We visited Reims in '12 and we enjoyed it more than we expected to. We hit the "max" with Cathedrals about 10 years ago, so we don't go out of our way to visit them now. However, Reims had some very lovely architecture in the city, which we enjoyed very much. We've lived near the Napa/Sonoma area for the past 38 years, so visiting Champagne Cellars has no interest for us. However, we enjoyed Troyes, Auxerre, Dijon, perhaps Bescancon, and Strasbourg more than Reims.

I agree with tom18 abput staying in Kaysererg or Requewihr instead of Strasbourg.

I would spend:
1 night in Reims
1 night in Troyes
3 nights near Auxerre
4 nights near Beaune
1 night in Bescanson
4 nights near Kayserburg

If I had to cut 1 night, I would choose Beaune or Reims.

Do you have my itinerary for Alsace? I've sent itineraries to over 5,000 people on Fodors. E-mail me at StuDudley@aol.com & I'll attach a copy to the reply e-mail. I also have some info on Burgundy.

Stu Dudley

Thanks Stu for the great advice, but nuts, I just found out that in the time it takes to drive from Brussels to Troyes, I can be in Avignon via TGV. This would lead me back to Provence and Dordogne, which was my first choice with the kids months ago when I started looking for destinations! (I found a great rate on a flight to Dusseldorf I couldn't pass up so thought Dordogne would be out of range).

It will take some work for me - as Provence will seriously make me consider cutting back on time in Belgium in a way Burgundy was not, but if the logistics don't work out Burgundy/Alsace is a fine choice as well (just not as fine to this Roman history buff).

And thanks as well bilboburglar! The biking in Burgundy makes me drool. That is something we'll probably have to forgo should we head farther south (we are more "flat earth" bikers coming from Florida and don't need to cut out teeth on hills while on vacation!)

have a look at this site if you want flat riding.

www.mybikeguide.co.uk

>>Thanks Stu for the great advice, but nuts, I just found out that in the time it takes to drive from Brussels to Troyes, I can be in Avignon via TGV. <<

For future reference - you should tell us what your entire itinerary is, and what you "want" to do. I knew that there are several direct TGVs from Brussels to Avignon - and I'm sure others did also.

Stu Dudley

Thanks Stu, but I'm not sure you could help with that. My entire itinerary is so far - fly into and out of Dusseldorf! If I knew what I wanted, it would be too easy! I thought I was getting really close with Belgium/Burgundy/Alsace though.

I've got several 20 day itineraries sketched out everywhere from Brittany to Budapest and from Amsterdam to Sicily. You sent me your itinerary for Dordogne some months back, but when I got tickets for Dusseldorf I focused on a driving itinerary from that area. This Belgium Burgundy itinerary is the second serious attempt from Dusseldorf, beating out Munich to Dusseldorf.

My decision on a final itinerary will be based on many intangibles, mostly to do with "flow," but also with "dough." S. France seems like it will flow and save some dough, even coming from Dusseldorf.

If we wind up in Dordoge, I think I will feel the need to cut out some/all of Belgium and that's not the kind of thing anyone can help me decide if I want to do.

Btw, I knew there were fast trains from Brussels to Avignon, but did not know tickets could be had for 29eur! I'm not opposed to spending money, just that I don't see the need if we'll be just as happy by not spending it, if you know what I mean.

Thanks again, you'll be hearing plenty from me as I hope to pick your brain some more. Looking forward to adding a nice trip report to the archives!

OK, I've finished dreaming of fitting the Dordogne into this trip, but have come up with another question.

Here's what we will usually do each day: tour the town or city in the early morning (if we're in a town) and do some activity that get's us out of town for the day when tour buses arrive - castle explorations, bike rides, shortish road trips etc. Return in the evening to enjoy old town areas. Larger cities would be toured during the day.

What I have after some tweaking:

6 nights Belgium - Brugge 2-3 nights, Ghent 1-2 nights, and 2 nights maybe Brussels and Dinant. Orval Abby on way to France.

5-6 nights Alsace - stay in a village, one daytrip to Strasbourg.

That leaves 6-7 nights to spread around. I love the comparisons that people make (no one seems to prefer Burgundy over Dordogne for example), and StuDudley's list of his favorite cities is wonderful.

Burgundy seems like it would be lovely for us, but how would anyone rate it vs. N. Bavaria (Bamberg, Wurzburg, Rothenburg) or Baden-Württemberg (Tubingen, Maulbron and castles)? The area around Auxerre looks wonderful too, but which would you choose for 6 or 7 nights in this itinerary?

All great places Walker. Auxerre us my preference as you can touch over to the Loire as well. But if you want to drink Burgundy in the area then you have to go there.

I've been to only Rothenburg on your Germany list. I prefer Dijon to Rothenburg - and Auxerre to it also. Perhaps Troyes too. Rothenburg was loaded with large tour groups when we were there.

I prefer Brugge, Ghent, and Antwerp over Rothenburg.

I'll have to note, however, that I much prefer the "look & feel" of almost any French city or town over German cities & towns.

Stu Dudley

<<I much prefer the "look & feel" of almost any French city or town over German cities & towns.>>

Same here. Much prefer the food, too (though Belgian food is my all-time favorite).

6 nights Belgium - Brugge 2-3 nights, Ghent 1-2 nights, and 2 nights maybe Brussels

Stay in one town and take day trips to the other ones. Ghent is between Brussels and Bruges. The travel time between these towns is no more than a long commute on the NYC subway.

Ha, good advice, I'm sure.

bilbo, you are causing me some grief here, suggesting the Loire. If I keep creeping west I'll soon be at Mont St Michelle!

Well then, I'm set with the "macro view," which is real progress for me! So - give or take a night in each area:

Fly into Dusseldorf and train to Freiburg for 1 night, then pick up rental car and explore Alsace area for 5 nights.

Work our way through Burgundy for 7 nights.

After Auxerre/Troyes area drive to Belgium either via Fontainebleau and through Lille to Brugge, or through Rheims to Orval Abbey in Belgium, Dinant then Brussels. Maybe I'll leave this day(s) open and decide on the spot.

The nights in Belgium are spread out to visit each town later at night. The lodging and any festivals/events I can find will probably play a part in how many nights we spend in each town.

Mont St Michel, please have mercy.

Walker, I was thinking Sancerre or is that Sancer.

Two spellings and a thousand pronunciations!

Not so fast, my friend (Lee Corso).

You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going because you might not get there(Yogi Berra).

I would substitute Paris and surroundings, one of the world's great cities, for much of Belgium. Compare Paris with Brussels. Brussels is best known for a little boy "taking a leak" in the main square. For Paris your sons can tell their friends that they climbed the Eiffel Tower, the Notre Dame cathedral, and the Arc de Triumph. Bruges is nice, but Colmar is Bruges without the waffles and mussels. I have not been to Ghent since 1964, but all remember is some large dogs. You can buy Stella Artois at Costco.

So think about landing in Dusseldorf, taking the train from the airport to Paris (about 4 hours) and sleeping in Paris for your first night. After a few days in Paris you can rent a car and tour Burgundy and Alsace, turning in the car in Strasbourg or drop off in Dusseldorf paying a couple of hundred $ drop off fee.
OR
After Paris, take the TVG to Avignon, rent a car, tour Provence and make your way north touring the French Alps, Burgundy, and Alsace.

Both of these "flow". Its only "dough".

<<Bruges is nice, but Colmar is Bruges without the waffles and mussels.>>

Yes, Paris looms large in any itinerary I try and work out. Your idea of Paris/Avignon and driving up to Alsace strikes me as excellent, thanks. It definitely could have the flow, now just to look into that other thing.

Every choice I make means I'll be giving something else up, but Stella Artois isn't one of them!

Thanks for all the input from everyone, it really did help me out. However this is now an ex-itinerary as I just purchased a connecting flight Dusseldorf - Lyon and will be hitting Provence/Dordogne after all.

I had to give up a small country to do it, but what's new.

Last year I took my 2 grandsons(and their parents), each 2 years younger than your sons, to the Dordogne,Provence, and Paris( one night stops in Carcassonne and Rocamador).The boys loved the trip.
So what is your new itinerary?