December trip to Germany & Switzerland - Ingo are you out there?
Sep 23rd, 2014, 11:59 PM
#1
December trip to Germany & Switzerland - Ingo are you out there?
Due to other commitments, we're just now getting around to nailing down our December trip to Germany and Switzerland.
We're traveling from Australia, and will fly in/out of Zurich, arriving on December 15, departing Jan 4.
Taking the advice of Fodorites on an earlier thread, we've decided to make our first stop Freiburg-Breisgau in Germany. I absolutely must have a big dose of German Christmas cheer and Freiburg makes complete sense as it's less than a two hour train ride from Zurich, and we'll be seriously hammered after flying from Perth, Australia.
We plan to head to Scuol, Switzerland on Dec 20 and stay for seven nights, inclusive of Christmas.
The new dilemma is where to go afterwards. I'd originally planned on Zuoz or Sils Maria, but finding an apartment is proving almost impossible the week after Christmas (not to mention seriously expensive).
So on to Plan B - where to go that won't be affected by the ski season? We're not skiers, but do enjoy hiking, so we'd prefer someplace with relatively easy access to some trails (not necessarily mountains, although we love mountains!)
We're not city people, so would prefer a smallish city. We'd prefer an apartment and can commit to a full week, Saturday-Saturday. Our last night will be spent in Zurich, so it need not be particularly close to the airport, as we'll have a full day to get to Zurich the day prior to our departure.
Locarno and Lugano have come up and I've begun my research, but I'm hoping Ingo and others might have some suggestions we've not considered.
We're traveling from Australia, and will fly in/out of Zurich, arriving on December 15, departing Jan 4.
Taking the advice of Fodorites on an earlier thread, we've decided to make our first stop Freiburg-Breisgau in Germany. I absolutely must have a big dose of German Christmas cheer and Freiburg makes complete sense as it's less than a two hour train ride from Zurich, and we'll be seriously hammered after flying from Perth, Australia.
We plan to head to Scuol, Switzerland on Dec 20 and stay for seven nights, inclusive of Christmas.
The new dilemma is where to go afterwards. I'd originally planned on Zuoz or Sils Maria, but finding an apartment is proving almost impossible the week after Christmas (not to mention seriously expensive).
So on to Plan B - where to go that won't be affected by the ski season? We're not skiers, but do enjoy hiking, so we'd prefer someplace with relatively easy access to some trails (not necessarily mountains, although we love mountains!)
We're not city people, so would prefer a smallish city. We'd prefer an apartment and can commit to a full week, Saturday-Saturday. Our last night will be spent in Zurich, so it need not be particularly close to the airport, as we'll have a full day to get to Zurich the day prior to our departure.
Locarno and Lugano have come up and I've begun my research, but I'm hoping Ingo and others might have some suggestions we've not considered.
Sep 24th, 2014, 01:52 AM
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There are tons of areas with good scenic hiking trails (prepared trails through the snow as well as trails in areas which are usually free of snow).
The main problem will be the weather, however. Rainfall, snowfall, fog and heavy winds are not unusual in this season. Sunrise can be very late and sunset very early in some valleys where the sun seems to be always hidden behind some mountains.
You may google for holiday homes Switzerland, Ferienwohnungen Schweiz, etc. or go to http://www.myswitzerland.com/en/home.html, choose the area and the villages you are interested in and follow the links to holiday apartments.
For sunny areas, choose slopes at the sunny side of valleys in the east-west direction, like Rhone Valley between Martigny and Brig (all places north of the Rhone river), Locarno-Orselina-Brione-Contra, Waldegg (Beatenberg), etc.
The main problem will be the weather, however. Rainfall, snowfall, fog and heavy winds are not unusual in this season. Sunrise can be very late and sunset very early in some valleys where the sun seems to be always hidden behind some mountains.
You may google for holiday homes Switzerland, Ferienwohnungen Schweiz, etc. or go to http://www.myswitzerland.com/en/home.html, choose the area and the villages you are interested in and follow the links to holiday apartments.
For sunny areas, choose slopes at the sunny side of valleys in the east-west direction, like Rhone Valley between Martigny and Brig (all places north of the Rhone river), Locarno-Orselina-Brione-Contra, Waldegg (Beatenberg), etc.
Sep 24th, 2014, 02:08 AM
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BTW: The train ride Zurich airport - Freiburg im Breisgau lasts 2 hrs 20 min and costs 64 CHF one way (standard fare). Trains every hr.
Bus fares Zurich (main station) - Freiburg start at 8 EUR/OW
http://www.checkmybus.ch/#departureD...rder=ascending
Bus fares Zurich (main station) - Freiburg start at 8 EUR/OW
http://www.checkmybus.ch/#departureD...rder=ascending
Sep 24th, 2014, 03:58 AM
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Hi Melnq8,
I'm happy you'll be in Scuol for a decent visit! I was there for four or five nights some years ago and had a ball. Ingo was my guru for things to do, and I didn't get to all of them. It's a great town. Where are you staying? I stayed down in the lower part of town, and it was very quiet -- I might stay in the middle section or even the higer section on a future visit to have more life (not even an ATM down at the bottom).
Here are some thoughts on alternate places:
Chateau d'Oex or Rougemont -- between Gstaad and Montreux. You can easily get to both Gstaad and Montreux for day-trips to hike the mountains (Gstaad) or stroll the lake (Montreux). It's at a lower elevation, so the hiking trails shouldn't have snow, and the nearest skiing center is Gstaad. You can easily get to Thun & Spiez on Lake Thun, and to Gruyeres for sight-seeing.
Brig, about 90 minutes from Zermatt. Most folks just blow by pretty little Brig, but it's a nice little center. You can be in the big mountains (Riederalp or Bettmeralp) in about 30 minutes, where the hiking is fantastic. From Brig, you can easily visit Martigny, Montreux, or Leukerbad. You can also easily visit Kandersteg and the Lötschental from Brig.
I thought about suggesting a stay in Kandersteg, but I'm not sure if it would keep you busy for a week. Probably would. Again, the elevation is lower, so hiking trails would probably be clear. You could easily visit Thun & Spiez from Kandersteg.
Or how about a stay in Brienz?
Switzerland -- you really can't go wrong!
Have fun as you plan!
s
I'm happy you'll be in Scuol for a decent visit! I was there for four or five nights some years ago and had a ball. Ingo was my guru for things to do, and I didn't get to all of them. It's a great town. Where are you staying? I stayed down in the lower part of town, and it was very quiet -- I might stay in the middle section or even the higer section on a future visit to have more life (not even an ATM down at the bottom).
Here are some thoughts on alternate places:
Chateau d'Oex or Rougemont -- between Gstaad and Montreux. You can easily get to both Gstaad and Montreux for day-trips to hike the mountains (Gstaad) or stroll the lake (Montreux). It's at a lower elevation, so the hiking trails shouldn't have snow, and the nearest skiing center is Gstaad. You can easily get to Thun & Spiez on Lake Thun, and to Gruyeres for sight-seeing.
Brig, about 90 minutes from Zermatt. Most folks just blow by pretty little Brig, but it's a nice little center. You can be in the big mountains (Riederalp or Bettmeralp) in about 30 minutes, where the hiking is fantastic. From Brig, you can easily visit Martigny, Montreux, or Leukerbad. You can also easily visit Kandersteg and the Lötschental from Brig.
I thought about suggesting a stay in Kandersteg, but I'm not sure if it would keep you busy for a week. Probably would. Again, the elevation is lower, so hiking trails would probably be clear. You could easily visit Thun & Spiez from Kandersteg.
Or how about a stay in Brienz?
Switzerland -- you really can't go wrong!
Have fun as you plan!
s
Sep 24th, 2014, 09:04 AM
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Kandersteg is particularly shadowy in winter and most things remain frozen all the day.
The only things you can do from there is to take a gondola to Sunnbuehl and hike along the prepared winter hiking trail to Gemmi Pass or to take a train to Ausserberg (Valais) and hike in this area which is usually more or less free of snow even in winter.
Brig is by far the better choice.
Train rides from Kandersteg to Spiez, Thun, Bern, Interlaken, etc. last 10 min longer than from Brig.
Lake Maggiore can be reached by train from Brig in less than 1 hr and Milan in less than 2 hrs.
The only things you can do from there is to take a gondola to Sunnbuehl and hike along the prepared winter hiking trail to Gemmi Pass or to take a train to Ausserberg (Valais) and hike in this area which is usually more or less free of snow even in winter.
Brig is by far the better choice.
Train rides from Kandersteg to Spiez, Thun, Bern, Interlaken, etc. last 10 min longer than from Brig.
Lake Maggiore can be reached by train from Brig in less than 1 hr and Milan in less than 2 hrs.
Sep 24th, 2014, 03:16 PM
#6
Thank you both for your insight.
Swandav -
Regarding Scuol, we're staying at the same apartment as last year. While I realize there is a distinction between ends of town, I'm not sure which is which. Maybe you can clarify that for me? The apartment is about a 5-7 minute walk from the train station. It's reached via a very steep hill from the commercial area of town, if that makes any sense. It's a fair walk to the Coop and cafes, but we like walking, so no worries there.
We'd already looked into and dismissed Kangersteg, as we enjoyed it in the off season some years ago. Trouble finding an apartment for the week we need.
neckervd -
You make a good point about being in the valleys - as we discovered last year, the sun doesn't crest the mountains until around 10 and disappears by 2 pm or so, making for very short days. Which gives a nod to Locarno.
I hadn't considered Brig, will definitely look into it.
Swandav -
Regarding Scuol, we're staying at the same apartment as last year. While I realize there is a distinction between ends of town, I'm not sure which is which. Maybe you can clarify that for me? The apartment is about a 5-7 minute walk from the train station. It's reached via a very steep hill from the commercial area of town, if that makes any sense. It's a fair walk to the Coop and cafes, but we like walking, so no worries there.
We'd already looked into and dismissed Kangersteg, as we enjoyed it in the off season some years ago. Trouble finding an apartment for the week we need.
neckervd -
You make a good point about being in the valleys - as we discovered last year, the sun doesn't crest the mountains until around 10 and disappears by 2 pm or so, making for very short days. Which gives a nod to Locarno.
I hadn't considered Brig, will definitely look into it.
Sep 24th, 2014, 09:37 PM
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Oooh my gosh, I hadn't realized that you've been to Scuol before. Then you know what a wonderful treat you have in store!
I stayed at Hotel Gabriel, which is down at the very bottom of town, near the river. It *was* gorgeous and lovely, and that part of town is very pretty. But there are only a few other hotels there, so not much choice for dinner. And, yes, one time I needed to get some cash for a bus trip or something early in the morning, and there were no ATMs around.
When you say your apartment is reached via a very steep hill from the commercial area, do you mean a steep UPhill to arrive at the apartmen or a steep downhill?
Anyway, I'm envious that you get to go back to gorgeous Scuol!
When I visited Scuol, I combined it with a visit to Brig. Normally I don't recommend scenic train rides, but in this case, the Glacier Express linked Scuol (or really Chur) to Brig, so it was convenient to take it. If you have any curiosity about that line, this would be a good opportunity to take it. On the other hand, I wouldn't go out of my way to take the Glacier Express . . .
Hope to hear more as your plans continue. Really looking forward to seeing what Ingo suggests.
s
I stayed at Hotel Gabriel, which is down at the very bottom of town, near the river. It *was* gorgeous and lovely, and that part of town is very pretty. But there are only a few other hotels there, so not much choice for dinner. And, yes, one time I needed to get some cash for a bus trip or something early in the morning, and there were no ATMs around.
When you say your apartment is reached via a very steep hill from the commercial area, do you mean a steep UPhill to arrive at the apartmen or a steep downhill?
Anyway, I'm envious that you get to go back to gorgeous Scuol!
When I visited Scuol, I combined it with a visit to Brig. Normally I don't recommend scenic train rides, but in this case, the Glacier Express linked Scuol (or really Chur) to Brig, so it was convenient to take it. If you have any curiosity about that line, this would be a good opportunity to take it. On the other hand, I wouldn't go out of my way to take the Glacier Express . . .
Hope to hear more as your plans continue. Really looking forward to seeing what Ingo suggests.
s
Sep 25th, 2014, 02:16 AM
#8
Swandav -
Steep uphill from town, but an easy walk from the train station via a field near the Motta Naluns cable car station. Every trip to the Coop or the little wine bar we liked involved that killer hill to get back to our apartment. We weren't near any restaurants either, the closest was at Hotel Collina at the bottom of the big hill.
I looked up Hotel Gabriel, so I understand the area you're referring to now.
Just booked flights, woo-hoo!
Steep uphill from town, but an easy walk from the train station via a field near the Motta Naluns cable car station. Every trip to the Coop or the little wine bar we liked involved that killer hill to get back to our apartment. We weren't near any restaurants either, the closest was at Hotel Collina at the bottom of the big hill.
I looked up Hotel Gabriel, so I understand the area you're referring to now.
Just booked flights, woo-hoo!
Sep 25th, 2014, 04:56 AM
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Brig is very pleasant. You also can do day trips to Zermatt, Saas-Fee, etc.
However, if you pick Brig, I recommend in the strongest possible way that you take one night out of your 7 and stay overnight at the Kulm Gornergrat Hotel at the top of the Gornergrat train. It really is one of the most amazing places to stay in Switzerland.
http://gornergrat-kulm.ch/?lang=en
The hotel is booking up FAST but they have a vacancy on December 27. The room rate may seem steep (400 francs for a double with Matterhorn view) but it includes a 4-course dinner (the restaurant is for guests only) and breakfast the next day, taxes, and wifi. The views, of course, are simply stunning and the train ride from Zermatt to Gornergrat is also fantastic.
DH and I are staying there next month to celebrate our 27th wedding anniversary.
The catch is that on the 27th, you'd need to spend about 7.5 hours on the train (Glacier Express plus Gornergratbahn) and you wouldn't get to Gornergrat until well after dark. OR you could cut one day off from Scuol (since you've been there before), go to Bern, spend the afternoon/night in Bern (or Thun if you prefer a smaller town), then head to Zermatt/Gornergrat the next day.
Otherwise, I also agree with Swandav about Chateux d'Oex, Rougement, etc. in the Gstaad region. Very pretty area, good restaurants, lots of places to walk around, sights to see etc.
However, if you pick Brig, I recommend in the strongest possible way that you take one night out of your 7 and stay overnight at the Kulm Gornergrat Hotel at the top of the Gornergrat train. It really is one of the most amazing places to stay in Switzerland.
http://gornergrat-kulm.ch/?lang=en
The hotel is booking up FAST but they have a vacancy on December 27. The room rate may seem steep (400 francs for a double with Matterhorn view) but it includes a 4-course dinner (the restaurant is for guests only) and breakfast the next day, taxes, and wifi. The views, of course, are simply stunning and the train ride from Zermatt to Gornergrat is also fantastic.
DH and I are staying there next month to celebrate our 27th wedding anniversary.
The catch is that on the 27th, you'd need to spend about 7.5 hours on the train (Glacier Express plus Gornergratbahn) and you wouldn't get to Gornergrat until well after dark. OR you could cut one day off from Scuol (since you've been there before), go to Bern, spend the afternoon/night in Bern (or Thun if you prefer a smaller town), then head to Zermatt/Gornergrat the next day.
Otherwise, I also agree with Swandav about Chateux d'Oex, Rougement, etc. in the Gstaad region. Very pretty area, good restaurants, lots of places to walk around, sights to see etc.
Sep 25th, 2014, 08:48 AM
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If you prefer hiking over skiing, you may do what the Swiss do: go into the Black Forest. It is way cheaper than Switzerland. The Black Forest is easy to reach from Freiburg - a 45-minute scenic train ride through the Hell's Canyon. Up there you will find an extensive network of hiking trails (cleared from snow), beautiful scenery, cozy restaurants in historic farmhouses, hot springs and more.
Charming places along the railroad are Titisee (lively, touristy) and Schluchsee (quieter, better hiking, more probability of snow).
But you should also book well in advance, because it will be high season.
Charming places along the railroad are Titisee (lively, touristy) and Schluchsee (quieter, better hiking, more probability of snow).
But you should also book well in advance, because it will be high season.
Sep 25th, 2014, 10:11 AM
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I am still around 
, but not as frequently as before, as you probably noticed.
Glad you're going to spend a week in Scuol. Lots of hiking options there. A special thing to do, don't know if it's still available: There used to be horse-drawn carriage rides from Scuol - San Jon to the hamlet S-charl with cheese fondue in the restaurant Mayor there. S-charl is only accessible by those carriages or by foot in winter, no cars. See their website: http://www.gasthaus-mayor.ch/go.cfm?...se&language=de
Hof Zuort above Vna is a must, too.
As for the other week - my favourite would be the Gstaad region, as suggested by swandav. Picturesque, romantic, with lots of hiking options to small villages (Simmental, Diemtigtal, around Lenk, Lauenen e.g.) The problem would probably be availability - it's very popular and most likely too late for this year.
Brig is conveniently located for excursions, but it is still a (relatively busy) town, several rail lines and roads meet there. Administrative centre of the Upper Valais. The advantage (or not?) is that you will hardly have snow in town, the trails around the town will be fine for walks. Ditto for the trails along the south-facing slopes in the main valley of Valais (like along the old Lötschberg railroute).
Other ideas:
The Jura mountains. I don't think one base would keep you busy for a whole week, though - the are a loooong mountain range, but not too wide. So you might want to change bases once.
Somewhere around Lake Lucerne. These are (mostly) not big skiing areas, they attract lots of walkers and sledders from the Swiss cities, so lots of walking trails are groomed. Rigi, for example, is perfect for winter walks.
, but not as frequently as before, as you probably noticed.Glad you're going to spend a week in Scuol. Lots of hiking options there. A special thing to do, don't know if it's still available: There used to be horse-drawn carriage rides from Scuol - San Jon to the hamlet S-charl with cheese fondue in the restaurant Mayor there. S-charl is only accessible by those carriages or by foot in winter, no cars. See their website: http://www.gasthaus-mayor.ch/go.cfm?...se&language=de
Hof Zuort above Vna is a must, too.
As for the other week - my favourite would be the Gstaad region, as suggested by swandav. Picturesque, romantic, with lots of hiking options to small villages (Simmental, Diemtigtal, around Lenk, Lauenen e.g.) The problem would probably be availability - it's very popular and most likely too late for this year.
Brig is conveniently located for excursions, but it is still a (relatively busy) town, several rail lines and roads meet there. Administrative centre of the Upper Valais. The advantage (or not?) is that you will hardly have snow in town, the trails around the town will be fine for walks. Ditto for the trails along the south-facing slopes in the main valley of Valais (like along the old Lötschberg railroute).
Other ideas:
The Jura mountains. I don't think one base would keep you busy for a whole week, though - the are a loooong mountain range, but not too wide. So you might want to change bases once.
Somewhere around Lake Lucerne. These are (mostly) not big skiing areas, they attract lots of walkers and sledders from the Swiss cities, so lots of walking trails are groomed. Rigi, for example, is perfect for winter walks.
Sep 25th, 2014, 09:25 PM
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Hi again --
Have you been to Lugano and are thinking about staying longer there?
I spent a short holiday there once -- I was scheduled & booked to stay for 5 nights but left after 3. I thought it was horrible. It looked and felt like a big city even though it only has 55,000 folks. It has a lot of traffic and a lot of noise; I kept looking for a quiet lakeside promenade, but the road is right next to it.
I did spend one afternoon in Locarno, which was much more quiet and peaceful. There is a nice lakefront promenade, but I'm not sure how far it goes.
s
Have you been to Lugano and are thinking about staying longer there?
I spent a short holiday there once -- I was scheduled & booked to stay for 5 nights but left after 3. I thought it was horrible. It looked and felt like a big city even though it only has 55,000 folks. It has a lot of traffic and a lot of noise; I kept looking for a quiet lakeside promenade, but the road is right next to it.
I did spend one afternoon in Locarno, which was much more quiet and peaceful. There is a nice lakefront promenade, but I'm not sure how far it goes.
s
Sep 25th, 2014, 11:00 PM
#15
Thank you marg.
I've been researching Locarno-Ascona all afternoon and I'm beginning to think we'll have no troubles spending a week there.
We've not been to Lugano Swandav...thought we could visit from a Locarno base? Or perhaps not?
I've sent an e-mail to the tourist office, just to make sure there's life in Locarno after Christmas (living in Australia has taught me to never assume!)
I've been researching Locarno-Ascona all afternoon and I'm beginning to think we'll have no troubles spending a week there.
We've not been to Lugano Swandav...thought we could visit from a Locarno base? Or perhaps not?
I've sent an e-mail to the tourist office, just to make sure there's life in Locarno after Christmas (living in Australia has taught me to never assume!)
Sep 26th, 2014, 02:00 AM
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"you may do what the Swiss do: go into the Black Forest"
Yes, a bit less than 1 per cent of all Swiss hikers go from time to time into the Black Forest, to Haute Savoie or Vorarlberg.
But much more hikers from Southern Germany come to Switzerland.
Black Forest trails are particularly popular with people from Basle, as they are only a few miles away from their homes.
Yes, a bit less than 1 per cent of all Swiss hikers go from time to time into the Black Forest, to Haute Savoie or Vorarlberg.
But much more hikers from Southern Germany come to Switzerland.
Black Forest trails are particularly popular with people from Basle, as they are only a few miles away from their homes.
Sep 26th, 2014, 02:24 AM
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What do you mean with "life in Lacorno after Christmas?"
The 60.000 inhabitants of the district will of course remain there. Locarno city buses will run all 10-15 minutes as usual. Trains to Bellinzona and Lugano will run from 5.34am until 1.19am as usual (3 trains per hour.)
The gondola to Cardada and the chairlift to Cimetta (1600m above Sea level, 1400m above Locarno city) will run as usual (at least every 30 min).
Shopping centers, shops, schools, etc. will be open as usual.
But there will be only few tourists.
The 60.000 inhabitants of the district will of course remain there. Locarno city buses will run all 10-15 minutes as usual. Trains to Bellinzona and Lugano will run from 5.34am until 1.19am as usual (3 trains per hour.)
The gondola to Cardada and the chairlift to Cimetta (1600m above Sea level, 1400m above Locarno city) will run as usual (at least every 30 min).
Shopping centers, shops, schools, etc. will be open as usual.
But there will be only few tourists.
Sep 26th, 2014, 02:26 AM
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We go to Lugano a few times a year. We would never, in our wildest imaginations, describe the place as "horrible" -- I think that's a very unfair characterization of a thriving small city.
The road along the lakefront is busy, but we've walked along the lake in the evenings and in the mornings and it's been fine. There are many neighborhoods worth poking around, like strolling the back streets from the city park over towards the Monte Bre funicular. Or take the boat to Gandria and walk back: http://www.lugano-tourism.ch/en/306/...=818&idMod=842
We never had any trouble finding quiet places to explore in the Lugano area.
The road along the lakefront is busy, but we've walked along the lake in the evenings and in the mornings and it's been fine. There are many neighborhoods worth poking around, like strolling the back streets from the city park over towards the Monte Bre funicular. Or take the boat to Gandria and walk back: http://www.lugano-tourism.ch/en/306/...=818&idMod=842
We never had any trouble finding quiet places to explore in the Lugano area.
Sep 26th, 2014, 09:49 AM
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lol, WeisserTee! I'm glad we agree on Gstaad, though.
I stayed at a 5-star lake front hotel in Lugano (got an incredible deal on it), and I remember looking to the right and left from my balcony. The buildings were so crammed together that I realized anyone could hop from balcony to balcony and reach my own balcony -- from about 10 buildings away. And that just illustrates my experience there. There was just too much -- too much traffic, too much noise, too many buildings, too many people. It was a horrible experience for me.
Actually the hotel wasn't on the lake -- it faced the road, the lake was on the other side of the road.
My idea of a nice lakefront promenade is at Montreux -- on one side you have the lake, and on the other side you have villas, hotels, cafes, etc. The road is on the other side of all that.
It was a summertime visit, and I'm sure that added to the masses of bodies and cars around.
I don't want to go to a destination and have to hide out during the day and only enjoy the place in the mornings & evenings!
s
I stayed at a 5-star lake front hotel in Lugano (got an incredible deal on it), and I remember looking to the right and left from my balcony. The buildings were so crammed together that I realized anyone could hop from balcony to balcony and reach my own balcony -- from about 10 buildings away. And that just illustrates my experience there. There was just too much -- too much traffic, too much noise, too many buildings, too many people. It was a horrible experience for me.
Actually the hotel wasn't on the lake -- it faced the road, the lake was on the other side of the road.
My idea of a nice lakefront promenade is at Montreux -- on one side you have the lake, and on the other side you have villas, hotels, cafes, etc. The road is on the other side of all that.
It was a summertime visit, and I'm sure that added to the masses of bodies and cars around.
I don't want to go to a destination and have to hide out during the day and only enjoy the place in the mornings & evenings!
s
