Complete International traveling noobie - Please Help!

I'm no expert but first thing I see is a problem with your hotel budget. $100/night for good neighborhoods are going to be a bit of a trick in places like Paris, London, or Amsterdam.

Does the $5000 total budget need to include airfare for 2 from Kentucky to Europe? Or is that just for hotel and expenses after you arrive?

My personal best advice is not to stress out so much!! Some people love to plan everything down to the last detail, but no reason you have to.

I've only been to Europe 5 times, but I've never planned anything more than picking my cities, buying a plane ticket, and making hotel reservations. Everything else I figured out on the ground after I arrived. Not saying this is right, or what you should do, just as an example so you can relax and not feel so pressured about your planning every little detail in advance.

I've done:
Switzerland
Switzerland/Venice
Switzerland/Venice/Paris
Amsterdam/Switzerland
(I have friend in Switzerland is why that always comes up in my itineraries)

Random thoughts and questions:

Is the 5K for both of yoor and for everything including airfare?

You will probably find lower airfare if you choose the October /November timeframe rather than May...unless you choose early May and happen upon deals. Seems like Memorial Day and thereafter can be pricy, in my experience.

To keep the budget lower, stick to two cities. Getting from here to there can gobble up your money.

I never follow my own advice, by the way.

Oops, sorry about the "yoor." I'm typing on an iPad.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that. Yes, the airfare should be included in the $5,000 budget.

I thought the $100 a night might not be doable. The best place I have found so far is this:

http://www.barclayhouselondon.com/Site_3/The_KING_room__rate.html

It actually looks perfect and is about $150/night which should be OK. Does this seem to be a good deal to you guys?

@ Leely2
Yes, the $5,000 is my (initial) budget for everything for 10-14 days for two people.
My original thought was $1500 for airfare, $1500 for hotels, and $2,000 to spend (food, gifts, etc) which averaged to about $200 a day for 10 days (which is the most likely time frame at this moment. If for some reason it does get changed to 14 days, the budget will increase as well).

Does this seem far-fetched?

Do it in order:
When?
How long?
How Much?
Decide where
Buy ticets
Book hotels
Plan daily activity

Why look at hotels until step 6--you will go crazy.

I haven't been to London in many years, but I remember hotels being rather expensive. Do a search here for London hotels and priceline, as well as one for London budget hotels and see what you come up with.

I was looking for Amsterdam hotels in June a couple of years ago and it seemed as if there was more wiggle room in prices, but I don't know about places with wifi. I'm pretty flexible when it comes to amenities in European hotels, instead focusing on location and ambience. I am sure there are posters on this board who can advise you better.

The airfare will be tough. That's where I'd start.

I think if you're flexible, you can do it.

Can you even get airfare round-trip from you location for $750 per person?

As above, I'd start with pricing that out. Just go to expedia.com or a genral website like that and put in a bunch of different dates and city combinations to get a general idea of what the prices are running.

As far as the type of plane, it just depends which airline you choose, and what type of plane they are flying on the route. There's no one answer. Yes 7 hours is a long time to sit in an economy seat, but you're going to Europe, who cares?? (haha)

Besides that, yes I think $150/night for hotel and $200 per day walking around, eating, entertainment money is an OK budget for a 10 day trip.

>>>It actually looks perfect and is about $150/night which should be OK. Does this seem to be a good deal to you guys?<<<

I think your exchange rate is a bit off. 115£ is $182.

>>>Can you even get airfare round-trip from you location for $750 per person?<<<

I see a flight (on ITA) for May 1 from Louisville to London Gatwick on USAir for $735 with return of May 15. Just checked some random dates and airports (not Heathrow).

I would prefer May weather for London and Amsterdam (I froze one July in Amsterdam when the high was only 48). I also think you need to factor in ferry cost. By the time you add that on, it might be cheaper to fly into London and back from Amsterdam. It also saves time backtracking.

I don't think you will have a problem meeting your hotel budget in Amsterdam. Priceline is also a good option for both cities IF you know how to use it and ask a lot of advice on bidding areas.

>>>What is it like on an international flight? Are they the same size as the planes that fly domestically? <<<

TATL planes will be larger, but will depend on type of aircraft.

I've been watching flights for my own trip planning and have been seeing quite a few discounts to Brussels from my area.

Louisville (SDF) to London (LGW) - Tue, May 1
US Airways Louisville (SDF) to Charlotte (CLT) - Tue, May 1
US Airways 3052 Dep: 2:12PM Arr: 3:39PM 1h 27m Embraer ERJ-135/145 Coach (T)
OPERATED BY US AIRWAYS EXPRESS-CHAUTAUQUA AIRLINES Layover in CLT 2h 46m

US Airways Charlotte (CLT) to London (LGW) - Tue, May 1
US Airways 732 Dep: 6:25PM Arr: 7:20AM 7h 55m Airbus A330 Coach (T)
Wed, May 2

London (LGW) to Louisville (SDF) - Tue, May 15
US Airways London (LGW) to Charlotte (CLT) - Tue, May 15
US Airways 733 Dep: 10:00AM Arr: 1:55PM 8h 55m Airbus A330 Coach (T)

Layover in CLT 2h 4m

US Airways Charlotte (CLT) to Louisville (SDF) - Tue, May 15
US Airways 2689 Dep: 3:59PM Arr: 5:22PM 1h 23m Canadair RJ 900 Coach (T)
OPERATED BY US AIRWAYS EXPRESS-MESA AIRLINES
Cost per passenger (including taxes & fees) $735.60
Total cost for 1 passenger $735.60

First of all, with that kind of time frame and possibly wanting to do TWO cities you should consider flying into one and out of the other. For USAirways BOTH London and Amsterdam would fit that possibility and the cost of a so-called open jaw ticket probably wouldn't be any more than if you flew in and out of one place.

London, as some have said, is one of the more expensive cities to stay in, hotel-wise.

As to what you should see and do, I would pick out some places/activities that sound good to YOU and then I would ask about those specifically.

and yes those coach seats are the same ones you've flown in domestically and yes people DO spend 7.5 hours or more in them.

Two points:

Timing - I'd go for May over late October/early November any time. The daylight hours will be much longer and the weather much better. It may be, though (I don't know), that flights and hotels are correspondingly more expensive.

Local public transport: both London and the Netherlands have moved to electronic payment systems to cut out the need for lots of people to handle lots of small amounts of cash. Either way, you do not need to buy anything in advance - you can do it when you arrive.
London: www.tfl.gov.uk (there is an additional wrinkle about the 2for1 promotions that may be of advantage to you, but which you can only claim if you're holding a ticket issued by one of the national rail companies rather than TfL's Oystercard - look for any of the many, many threads here discussing this issue)
Amsterdam: www.gvb.nl (looks like they're reorganising their English language pages, but basically you're probably best off getting day cards for as many days as suits your planned travel).

I started my European adventures 15 years ago with a visit to the Netherlands (our family's home country) and have since branched out to Belgium, France, and Germany. I found that the Netherlands was probably one of the best places to visit first because you get a feel for just being in Europe without the language barrier (because virtually everyone speaks English). The other thing I learned is that Rick Steves has some of the best advice around on how to be a "temporary resident" and not just a tourist.

Where you go really should depend upon your interests and then see what in your interestes fits into your budget. My interests are much more in seeing the Netherlands and France so a trip to England/Scotland/Ireland is on my list but way down in priority. I would be doing a trip like this to Amsterdam & Paris and skip London, but that's based upon my interests.

Hotels with even 1 star will blow your budget fast. I would recommend that you check out bed-and-breakfast lodging. You'll not only save money, but you get local people who want to help you understand their culture. The downside can be that you need a rental car because the place you want to stay isn't serviced well by public transportation.

If you want to go even cheaper, there are a bunch of cheap hotel chains such as Etap that offer a very good value. The downside is that they are usually outside of city-centers so you would need a car. The exception is Paris where you can find them within a few blocks of a metro stop. (I don't drive in Paris or Amsterdam, but there is no reason to fear driving outside of such big cities.)

We usually fly before April 15 or after September 15. This puts us in the "shoulder" season where fares aren't as low as Winter, but much cheaper than Summer fares. We're leaving April 1 for the Netherlands and our round-trip fare (Phoenix to Amsterdam) is about $850 each.

Hope this helps with analysing all the info you are gathering!

Couple thoughts - Europe can be done cheaply if you are willing to eat like the locals (i.e. buy breakfast and lunch in take-away places and eat in parks etc).

Check out www.eurocheapo.com for affordable hotels and hints.

London to Amsterdam can be done as an overnight ferry ride for an affordable amount, saving you the cost of getting to/from the airport and the hotel that night. I have done it and it was quite fun! I will post our mini-trip report that goes into detail about how to do it.

You may consider renting an apartment to save you some costs for meals etc.

Definitely book open jaw flights into one city and out of another.

Once you have your itinerary set, then start thinking about hotels, restaurants, sites you want to see and what transport options would be best. Dont get ahead of yourself! You will have a great time. Dont worry too much, enjoy the planning and ask lots of questions!

Here is the info on the ferry to Amsterdam: http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/london-to-amsterdam-via-overnight-ferry-a-weekend-adventure.cfm

First I would like to address the open-jaw flight suggestions. (I am correct in thinking that “Open-Jaw” means flying into one city, then traveling to your second city and flying home from there, right?)Am I doing something wrong when checking these prices? I was able to take a look around for just a few minutes on my way out the door this morning and it seemed to me immediately that flying into one city and out of another was far more expensive.

The most inexpensive fare that I saw from Louisville, KY to London was $853.30/person on Travelocity (before baggage costs). This was before I read your post, kybourbon. Yours is far better! However, when I checked the same dates flying into London open-jaw, it was $1424.70/person. Am I missing something?

@jamikins –
That’s the post that made me want to check into it! Thank you so much, it sounds like a great time. It also sounds like a very inexpensive way to get from London to Amsterdam without losing travel time. All of our travel to Amsterdam and back, plus all the connecting transportation and a place to sleep for two nights for $385? That seemed like a fantastic (and fun) idea to me. My only question is on the return. Can you come back whenever you want or is it only for the weekend?

We are definitely willing to eat like locals. I look forward to eating in the parks, but I would like to have a few sit-down meals, but certainly not every day.

I keep coming back to the B&B I linked. There’s just something about it that speaks to me…but I don’t know if it’s even in a good neighborhood. I feel like there has to be a catch now that I’ve seen the prices of other places.

@kybourbon –
First, thanks for the info on the flight. Can you send me that website? Also, you’re absolutely right, I was wrong on my conversion. I remember now that I think it was the double room that was $150 (approx.) and the King was $182. However, for what we get, the proximity, and the fact that we would have free breakfast each morning that we were there, $182 still seems like a good rate in comparison.

@everyone –
It seems like the votes for May are winning and it also seems like my modest budget will only last us the 10 days (if that). My total calculations so far look like this:
Hotel (London) - $728 (4 nights)
Hotel (Amsterdam) - $600 (4 nights, keeping it at $150/night, which seems more feasible there).
Airfare - $1900 roughly, allotting for random baggage fees and layover money (round-trip London
Transport from London to Amsterdam & 2 nights lodging - $385
So with my airfare and lodging, plus a bit of transportation my total so far is $3700 (rounding for tips, etc, fees are already included above)
This will leave us $1300 for two people to spend on food, transportation, admission fees, and souvenirs. Or only $130 a day for two people. To me, that sounds like plenty…but I feel like I’m being naïve.

Keep the suggestions coming!

Thank you all so much!

Welcome to Fodor's!!!

With 14 days, I can see 3 cities being abotu right, 2 if less than 14.

Landing in London would be a good choice. No language issues, so being jetlagged and grumpy the first day, no worries about getting to hotel, walking around, etc.. London is expensive. many pople here use Priceline, which allows you to bid on hotel rooms in certain areas. You don't know hotel, but experts can help narrwo that down. A good way to get good prices. My last trip there I used a Expedia flgiht/hotel combo and did quite well. London is also a good place to do B&Bs, so keep that in mind.

What to do there? Lots. What I do when going to a new country/city is read some guidebooks, put on paper everything I might want to see, group geograhically, and note days open/closed. If you have 5 days in London (first 1/2 day lost to arriving, last day partilally to leaving), pick those geograhpic gorups and plunk them down on the calendar.

So..I might group Westminster Abbey, Parliament, War rooms, !0 Downing, Trafalgar Sq together. Might also add Covent garden, then walk up to Buckingham palace.

London also offers a variety of walking tours. Look up 'London Walks' , I took 5/6 of their tours last trip. Also, if you want an overview, multiple choices of coach tours. Trisp out of the city (Stonehenge..TBD)

We'll help.

OK, 5 days in London are done, where next. One nice possibility is Paris. Yu can catch the Eurostar high speed train and be in central Paris in a couple of hours.

Similar idea. You have 5 days, group things geographically. So..Louvre, Tuilerie Gardens, Place de la Concorde, Champs Elysee, Arc de Triomphe, Palais Royale, Place Vendome, covered passagewyas,etc...are in one area. Notre Dame, Sainte Chapelle, Ile St Louis, bouquinistes, Seine walks...another area.

Hotels in Paris can be had in the $150 range. B&Bs a lot rarer.

~10 days gone, how to finish?

You can either ramp up to 14 days in 2 cities, and maybe add some day trips out of the city (Stonehenge, Versailles,etc...), or maybe you take the high speed train to Amsterdam for 3 or 4 days. I found that about what I needed to see the city.

Having a week in two cities would make idea of renting an appartment a possibility.

Fly home

One possibility. No cars needed for above, Could also do a London visit, followed by renting car and seeing countryside.

Some points: no need to worry about language, english will work fine.
No traveller's cheques. ATM machines are everywhere and will take care of $$$

>>>First I would like to address the open-jaw flight suggestions. (I am correct in thinking that “Open-Jaw” means flying into one city, then traveling to your second city and flying home from there, right?)<<<

For open jaw, you need to select multi-city option, not two one way tickets. I don't use sites like Travelocity. I use a search engine website that does the search software for most of the online travel websites and airlines. You can't book with them. When you find your flight, you go directly to the airline to book.

For open jaw, were you looking at into London and out of Amsterdam? Were you checking Heathrow and Gatwick in London for flights? The flight I saw was r/t London Gatwick.

The Barclay B&B you linked to: nothing wrong with the location, it's a quite upmarket area for people to live., and there are plenty of places to eat roundabout. Many visitors would, however, think it a bit of a schlep into central London for the tourist attractions which may account for the price: allow a good 30 minutes on the tube to commute anywhere you're likely to want to go.

For arriving in London, either Gatwick or Heathrow is fine for getting from airport into city. So, as stated above, look for flights arriving at either.

Re: kybourbon's method for finding good airfares and routings. One such site to search is itasoftware.com.

<Or only $130 a day for two people. To me, that sounds like plenty…but I feel like I’m being naïve.>

Well it's not a luxury vacation budget, but certainly do-able imo. Just check out stuff you can find to do for free, plan on lots of walking, picnic lunches, etc.

Keep looking on the open jaws idea. I'm no expert on how to find them, but I know I've booked tickets like that for similar or only a tiny bit more (into Geneva, out of Paris for example). Or if you are doing Amsterdam/Paris/London, you can make a regular round-trip using Heathrow work OK too.

If a cheap round trip deal works best out of London, there are discount airlines that fly from AMS to LDN.

But I'd check where a discount airline lands, since they it may not be the same airport as your major airline. This could negate any price advantage.

I use www.kayak.com to find flights. Chose multi-city option. You keep adding baggage fees. Many, including my family, always carry on no matter the length of the trip.

Re international vs domestic flights. The seat sizes are about the same, but the plane will likely be big (2 aisles) and an overseas flight will have some extra comforts that you don't get on a domestic trip (except maybe cross-continent):

They will feed you meals and snacks (they haven't started charging for those yet, as far as I know), and show 1 or 2 movies to pass the time (or you may have a little tv screen in the back of the seat in front of you, with tv, music, movie choices).

If you leave US in the evening (most flights from the east coast do) they will turn off all the lights after dinner so everyone can sleep (do try to get some sleep to ward off jet lag, despite being all excited), and wake you up with breakfast and coffee.

You can ask for a pillow and blanket when you get to your seat if you want them -- good to do early because sometimes they run out.

There is a big rush to use the bathroom about 20 minutes after each meal, and at wake-up time. Avoid waiting in line if you can manage it.

When you return to US you will be given an immigration card and a customs card to fill out before landing. Have your passport and ticket stub in easy reach because you'll need that information; and a pen.

Ok, it’s official. We will only have 10 days in Europe. I would like to spend four nights in London and four nights in Amsterdam (allotting for the two days on the end for travel/jet-lag). For example – I have been pricing flights leaving Louisville, KY on 5/18 to London-Heathrow round-trip flying back on 5/29.

@kybourbon
I did not realize that is how open-jaw flights worked, I misunderstood. If that’s the case, I will definitely look into that option next. I was looking at a one-way flight into London and a one-way flight back to Louisville from Amsterdam and couldn’t figure out how people that it was cheaper! HA!

*update* - Thank you so much for that link! Flying open-jaw is around the same price (or cheaper) than the round-trip route and saves me $200 on the return journey to London. Awesome! 

@PatrickLondon
Thanks for letting me know about the location. That is quite the commute. I feel like it would be ok, since we would be spending the majority of the day sight-seeing anyway, but I do like the idea of being closer to the city. That way we could always stop in for a quick rest if we needed to.

@jamikins
Thanks for the suggestion on the website; I’ve already seen a couple that I have sent to my home email for further research.

@Michael_Paris
I definitely plan on listing the things we want to see and then categorizing.

@HappyTrvlr
I plan on a carry-on for each of us, plus one checked bag a piece and our personal item. Hopefully that will be plenty for 10 days!

Keep it coming, you guys are great!

I meant that you should carry on all your luggage. You will get through passport control so much faster when you land at LHR and your smaller bags will be easier to handle traveling from London to Amsterdam, two of my favoirte cities. Have a great trip!

For 10 days (or even a month), you shouldn't need more than a 22" rollaboard carryon, plus a tote or small day bag.

You will find prices to be cheaper departing April or early May. Mid May prices go up.

Don't rule out flying out of Lexington, Cincinnati or Indy if the prices are a lot cheaper. You will have to put your car int the long term lot (usually about $9 a day here) so you need to factor that cost in.

Ok, why all the luggage???

You will be traveling for 10 days. Very few people will see you more than once so you don't have to have 10 different outfits. DH and I have been to Britain twice for 7 weeks each time and only carried a Rick Steves classic backpack each (plus my travel purse).

I take three shirts (one is nice, others are t-shirts), 1 pair jeans, 1 pair slacks, 1 skirt, and 2 pairs of shoes; sneakers (white!)and leather sandals. Oh, yes, and underwear stuffed into a gallon size ziplock bag with the air pushed out. If you give your clothes a good airing by hanging them up, you can wear them several times before having to wash them unless you spill something on them.

I really recommend you reconsider your luggage. The less you take with you, the better.

I did pop over and read Rick’s packing instructions and feel like you’re right and will surely be ok with DH and I only having carry-ons and our personal items.

We went on a cruise in 2010 (didn’t turn out all that great) and we each had a carry-on and a checked piece of luggage each. (And that was only for a 5 day cruise!) I admit I felt a bit over-packed. However, one thing to keep in mind is that we’re “pleasantly plump” people and our clothes take up a bit more room than most. Even with that being said, I feel like we’ll be saving even more money on checked baggage this time around.

I will definitely check around at the airports. I did run some numbers flying out of Chicago, but they didn’t seem to be significantly cheaper (especially once you factor in the gas and long-term parking).

I did come across another issue while at RS’s website. Do any of you have problems taking your laptops? I noticed that voltage is different in Europe; does that seem to affect anyone?

So, it seems like I have good leads on airfare and the time of year. Regarding the B&B that I posted earlier, what are your opinions? Is it worth staying 30 minutes outside of the city in exchange for wonderful amenities that allow me to stay within my budget (also close to the tube?) Or would we be better off staying closer to the city center in a lower end facility?

In any case seems you are going between London and either Paris or Amsterdam - for Paris at least if already in London you could take the Chunnel train and be in Paris in about two hours, city centre to city centre - but beware that the Eurostar train offers lots of different fares and the early bird does indeed get the worm here - just show up and you may pay hundred bucks or more more than the limited in number deep discounted fares that often sell out weeks early. Go to www.eurostar.com for various fares - easy to book and I believe you print your own ticket out at home.

If doing other train travel - Eurostar is also viable for Amsterdam - take Chunnel train to Brussels then connect with regular trains to Amsterdam, taking about 5 hours all told - flying could be viable to amsterdam but train is best IMO to Paris - anyway some great sites loaded with train info- www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com - and you are not nearly traveling enough to worry about any railpass.

Electronics.
First of all, the mechanical. The plugs are different over there, so to start with you will need an adaptor that change your three prong to their wall outlet.

Next, you need to look at each electrical device that you will be plugging in. Chec the label: if it says 110/220 it means that the device will operate on both voltages. Some manufacturers are building products for global sales, so they build one power supply that works 'most places'.

You should probably also buy a transformer. This device converts 200 to 110. On one side is the typical NortAmerican plug, on the other a generic plug. Once again, you use the adaptor you purchase above to allow the transformer to be plugged into the British wall.

These transformers are not rated for hugh current, so if you were to try to plug in a hair drier...could go poof. So for items that are big current draws and that you must have, buy one locally over there.

I bought a travel package at Walmart, can be found other places.

Your hotel looks nice, but personally I'd rather stay closer in. For instance, I usually stay on Gower St., walking distance to the British Museum and quite a few other places. You can get an en-suite double in my usual B&B for $145 in May: http://www.ridgemounthotel.co.uk/prices The Victoria area is more convenient to Gatwick, but the cheaper B&Bs there aren't as nice as Bloomsbury.

Note that on international flights you should get to check one bag each for free. I travel light, but I always check one bag so things like a Swiss army knife and extra liquids can go with me. And I don't have to schlep the bag round the terminal. You get two checked bags free on domestic flights on Southwest, which flies out of Louisville but won't show up on sites like kayak and expedia.

@thursdaysd
Wow! Thanks for the recommendation, that looks like a lovely place that is definitely in my budget. Is it close to public transportation as well? It seems to be, but learning all those routes and streets and such are a bit much right now I'll tackle that later.
If we can just check one medium size bag, I know we will be fine. The more I read, the more I think we can get it down to the two carry-ons (which would definitely be preferable).

@Michel_Paris
It looks like I can buy a small adaptor on RS's website. That place is a gold mine!

@PalenQ
We have decided on four nights in London and four nights in Amsterdam. Right now, we're thinking of taking the overnight ferry into Amsterdam so that we don't lose any precious travel time (and we get a cheap place to stay for the night!)

Thursdays, what a great B&B. Now I want to get back to London...soon!

@jbailey - there's a bus stop just across the street, and tube stops in reasonable walking distance (Russell Square, Goodge Street). If Ridgemount is full, Arosfa is just up the street and a bit more expensive, and Jesmond is next door & a bit cheaper but not quite as nice.

www.tfl.gov.uk that PatrickLondon posted above has good tube and bus maps, plus a travel planner.

You may find my packing lists helpful - I travel for weeks and months with one carry-on size bag and a day-pack. Start at http://mytimetotravel.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/what-to-take-part-one/

You can take the ferry back any day you just specify dates when you book. But it looks like you are flying open jaw so not an issue!!

Two more Bloomsbury B&Bs

www.harlingfordhotel.com

www.mentonehotel.com

Personally I don't travel with any electronics. For me it's just more work than would benefit me. I prefer to pack light. I don't take anything that uses electricity so don't need to worry adaptors, converters, rechargers, etc. If I have a sudden need to get online I just pop into an internet cafe.

H JB congrats on your trip go a lot headed there in April.

When a newbie I enjoyed a nice value group tour
lots less hassle and good savings.
affordabletours.com Globus for me last at 40%
smarttours.com
travelzoo.com good sales

For DIY

Fly into LON then ryanair.com or easyjet.com
eurocheapo.com for great budget tips and
ricksteves.com good euroewbie site.

My wife and I got our best deals with aa.com this year.

Have fun PM if needed,

You said you'd be willing to look at hostels. Here's a link to one of the YHA London hostels; I plugged in some May dates for you.

https://www.yha.org.uk/find-accommodation/search-results.aspx

We spent 12 days in England and Wales on a fairly tight budget. Here's a link to my trip report. The London part is at the beginning. http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/roundabout-the-uk-p-p-the-professor-and-some-p-ob-may-2007.cfm

Lee Ann

@Elendilpickle
I don't know that DH and I would be very comfortable at a hostel. We're already pushing it with one double bed.

@thursdaysd
Your blog looks awesome, I can't wait to read it!

@jamikins
Nothing is set in stone, if I can find a cheaper round-trip ticket I will still need the ferry back. Thanks for clarifying the return trip for me.

For AMS hotels, check out the Priceline threads for 4* and 5* hotels on the TripAdvisor AMS forum. There are loads of great hotels being consistently won by people at cheap prices.

For London, http://www.alhambrahotel.com/ is another good budget hotel.

I did the overnight ferry trip from AMS>LON last year and really enjoyed it. I highly recommend it, and it does not cut into your daytime sight seeing times.

www.accorhotels.com has good deals in practically every major city - weekend specials in places like Amsterdam IBIS hotel and other similar hotels on weekends when their normal business class clientele is not there.

In London and UK TravelLodge and Premier Inns often offer deep discounted rooms as well and regular rates for London IMO are an absolute bargain.

http://www2.travelodge.co.uk/

travel Lodge hotels in Britain

London Hotels - Book Cheap Hotels in London UK - Premier Inn
www.premierinn.com/en/london-hotels.html - United Kingdom20+ items – Choose from a range of London hotels and book rooms from ...
London Beckton 1 Woolwich Manor Way Beckton, London £49.00
London City (Tower Hill) 24 Prescot Street London £49.00

I agree Premier Inns are good but I would never recommend someone stay in Beckton! That is in no way convenient!

There is a Premier Inn I believe at Waterloo that is a good choice, and one at London Bridge on Southbank that is also another good choice, also the Tower Hill one.

Thank you so much for all of your suggestions!

As soon as I think I've found the perfect place, I find another one.

I've seen several "areas" of London mentioned, but I don't know much about them. Can anyone reccomend a good website or book that explains the layout well? I currently have Fodor's London 2012, Europe for Dummies, and loads of books from a few years ago from a friend at work (mostly maps and walking tours). What are some of your favorite travel guides out there (either online or in print, it doesn't matter)?

Oddly enough, planning for Amsterdam seems like it's going to be quite a bit easier than planning for London. I didn't see that one coming.

There's...just...so...much...to...learn!

>>I agree Premier Inns are good but I would never recommend someone stay in Beckton! >>

Nor I. And Prescot St isn't the most attractive street to stay in either, being part of the local one-way traffic system and surrounded by offices which makes the area even more dead at night: strictly for people who only want somewhere to lay their head for a night, not for a first taste of the UK.

<Can anyone reccomend a good website or book that explains the layout well?>

I just use a street map when I'm going to a new city. Something printed out or on paper, so I can write on it. Just start marking the sights you want to see, and various hotel locations. This will avoid you making a reservation in the "boonies".

Amsterdam is a lot smaller than London, that's why it's easier to plan.

That hotel is far from most tourist things. I have stayed in that area but have been to London more than 40 times over the years. Check out LOndontown.com for some good rates at better locations!

Last August we got a room at Travel Lodge for dirt cheap. They have specials going all the time, and we snagged one. We had a room for 3 of us and paid something like 35 GBP. It might have been less, I can't remember. I do know on my statement it came in at less than $60 US dollars. The one we were at was the Covent Garden location, which was perfect for us. The room was along the lines of a Holiday Inn Express. Functional and clean, but nothing else really. Since London is so expensive, it was nice to have the room so cheap so we could not worry about the rest.

To me staying in a *central* location is the most important. I'm usually solo and like to be able to walk to at least some things, and have easy public transportation for the rest. I can save money on other things like eating cheap, but to me staying way out in the outskits of a city as large as London as a tourist trying to see the sights is a false economy.

I really like Pauline Frommer's guide to London. Unfortunately it didn't sell well and hasn't been updated lately, but it's worth picking up a used copy for general tips and orientation. For newbies I'd also suggest Rick Steves. The picture guides are good for initial planning - visit your library or local bookstore and browse Insight or National Geographic or Eyewitness. For logistics I usually like Lonely Planet, but they've changed their format recently, and anyway they're better for Asia than Europe.

Basically, anywhere inside the Circle tube line is central enough. Areas around main train stations tend to be a bit more run down.

>>@Elendilpickle
I don't know that DH and I would be very comfortable at a hostel. We're already pushing it with one double bed.<<

Well, it's easier to snuggle up.

Guidebooks - we liked Michael Middleditch's London Mapguide. It has good street maps which include Tube stops and bus numbers.

Lee Ann

At barnes & noble you can find a ez map of the cities you are visiting. They will get you everywhere you need to go. Everyone has given you great information. Don't overwhelm yourself. Just take one step at a time.I am sure you will have a wonderful time.

I’ll probably get spammed for suggesting this, but since it’s your first international venture…..

Check out escorted tours for prices, where they go, what they include, and compare your estimated costs for driving, flying, hotels, admissions, etc. to having someone else do the work for you.
This site gives a lot of both high end and lower cost tours. http://www.tourvacationstogo.com/europe_tours.cfm

The first time we went internationally years ago, we did the escorted tour. We made our own flight arrangements because we wanted to spend some time in London for a few days before we met up with the tour. We estimated our per diem as you did, then compared the cost of the tour we chose, and the tour actually came out very close to our estimate. The tour gave us a guided tour of the city in the morning and left the rest of the day to be on our own, which was great because it gave us an opportunity to explore. (Of course, they also try to sell you “optional” tours, but if you have a good map and do your own research, you can visit the same places on your own.) We didn't have to do any driving, could nap on the coach or watch the scenery go by.
Just a thought.

Actually, what Londoners use for getting around is an "A to Z". For visitors a Mini one is fine, but buy it when you get there, amazon doesn't have the latest. The guidebook maps are fine for planning.

If you're just visiting two or three cities there's no reason to take a tour. Although you could look at London Walks for guided walks in London and for day trips. (Or get a copy of one of Andrew Duncan's books and do your own walks.)

I like to get the city maps that are laminated - usually find them at Barnes and Noble. They are virtually indistructable (ie if you spill beer on them, it is ok), fold up easily, and they can double as a picnic blanket in a pinch

That's interesting, because for me maps are something to write on, take notes, mark places I've been or want to go to. Laminated would definitely not work for me.

I like (and use) the laminated maps, too, but the only drawback is that you can't write on them.

The Eyewitness Guide has beautiful pictures and does show the city by areas. You could check out an older one from your library or look at one in a bookstore before deciding to buy (as well as the others mentioned, of course).

"Nothing is set in stone, if I can find a cheaper round-trip ticket I will still need the ferry back."

Since you are a self-admitted travel newby, let me advise you that this is a big newby mistake. You have only 4 days in each city. Your travel time is just as valuable as your money. If you take the ferry again to return to London to fly home, you will be wasting precious travel time.

It's not just the actual travel, which will take place overnight, but all the checking out of hotels, traveling to stations, waiting to get on and off ferries, checking into the next hotel that takes up more time than you might imagine. Use the best multicity option you can find and optimize you time in each location.

We were in London and Amsterdam this past December/January.

In London we stayed at Cherry Court Hotel, just around the corner from Victoria Tube station. We paid 60 pounds per night for an en-suite double (however, with a double bed). The rooms are small but clean and the owner, Mrs. Patel was wonderful to deal with. Perhaps a triple would give you more room (they have one on the ground floor if stairs are a bother) but the cost is more. We normally stay in a flat but were only in London for a few nights so opted for a hotel. I would stay here again under the same circumstances.

We took the Stena line ferry to get from London to Amsterdam. Read about it in detail on the www.seat61.com website. We booked "Rail and Sail" tickets on-line and it was a breeze (just don't get to Harwich too early, they don't let you on the boat until after 8 pm and you are stuck in a charmless depot while waiting). The Seat61 website advises you to take the later train from London which is good advice. The boat is like a mini-cruise ship, quite a pleasant surprise. Be warned that there are bunks, one over the other. Also, the wake-up call comes quite early so be aware you may not want to stay up too late. The price is what drove us to try the ferry - for around 70 pounds per person we had rail tickets from London to Harwich, an inside cabin for two and rail tickets from the Hook of Holland via Rotterdam to Amsterdam. It was cheaper than flying and saved us one night lodging costs. For comparison purposes, in 2010 we flew from London to Amsterdam using Easyjet airline and Easybus to get to the airport for around 50 pounds per person. We had less time for our holiday on that trip so flying made more sense.

In Amsterdam we stayed in a flat, VRBO listing #30677 for 120 euros per night in a very central location. It was so nice to be able to spread out, have a kitchen, washer/dryer (we pack light) and there was a back garden which we did not use (too cold) but in warmer weather would be an enjoyable place to sit with a glass of wine. There was a grocery store right around the corner. Helpful owner was a big plus. Beautiful view right out the front door.

We have been to London in January, March, May, September, October, November and December - our favorite times of year were May and September - best weather and nice long days.

I am so excited for you. Ten days for London and Amsterdam is a decent amount of time to get a feel for each city - I can promise you will want to start planning for your next trip as soon as you get home from this one!