Chip but no PIN

Old Apr 16th, 2014, 07:59 PM
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Chip but no PIN

I checked posts for info but am still a bit concerned. I have a card with a chip, but it doesn't require a PIN. Will this be a problem in France/England? Will primarily use the card for large purchases, such as our hotel in Paris. Otherwise, I plan on using a debit/atm for cash withdrawals. Does chip and pin only apply to credit cards, not atms?
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Old Apr 16th, 2014, 08:01 PM
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It's inconsequential unless you are trying to get tickets at a train station from an automatic machine (you don't have to - go to a manned booth) or an unmanned gas station on the weekends (fill up some other time).
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Old Apr 16th, 2014, 08:16 PM
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You have a chip/signture card . . . So it will be processed jut like everybody else's magnetic stripe cards.
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Old Apr 16th, 2014, 08:17 PM
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I'll need 7-day travel cards in London as we arrive from Paris, but can use a ticket window if one is open on a Sunday eve.
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Old Apr 16th, 2014, 08:35 PM
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You don't have a chip and pin because if you did you would have the pin. It will be a problem in many of the automated machines.
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Old Apr 16th, 2014, 11:39 PM
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King's Cross tube station (adjoining St Pancras International) ticket office is open 06:45 - 00:30 if you are coming by Eurostar.
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Old Apr 17th, 2014, 03:58 AM
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For the most part, there will be no problems. As noted, some unpersonneled locations such as self service gas stations or many but not all ticketing machines. In those cases, you will have to use the window. In London, although from what I've read there is some movement to close some of the ticketing office (don't know how far that's gone yet but Uncle Boris is pushng that from what I've read unless I misinterpret) you can always go to a clerk. Incidentally, I have never had any difficulties using a chip and signature card at the London underground auto machines although some at main line machines. Also be aware that sometimes the pin used for cash advances will work when prompted for a pin. (This has to do with priorities built into the cards and some cards which are marketed as chip and signature have the ability as a 2nd priority to use the cash advance pin but it's not something I can say with assurance will always work).

The American banks have sort of made their bed and it seems they will not be going to chip and pin priority as emv is rolled out here but will have provisions to use chip and pin as a 2nd priority at places where chip and signature doesn't work. There is also some pressure being put forth to make chip and signature the "standard" and require all pos terminals to accept chip and signature but that's in the future.

Right now, for the most part, you will be fine.
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Old Apr 17th, 2014, 10:08 AM
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It's that phrase, "for the most part," that concerns me. Arriving at St Pancras on the Eurostar Sunday eve about 4:40 pm, will need to get some pounds and a travelcard and on to Fleet River rooms. Hopefully my US debit/atm will not fail me.
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Old Apr 17th, 2014, 11:05 AM
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The ATM's do not require emv chipped cards but do require a pin. All debit cards do have pins so getting sterling will not be a problem.

As far as getting a 7 day travel card, no problem there either. Don't think twice about it.
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Old Apr 17th, 2014, 11:13 AM
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xyz123 wrote: "There is also some pressure being put forth to make chip and signature the "standard" and require all pos terminals to accept chip and signature but that's in the future."

How are they going to do that? Are they going to install a signature reader in the unmanned ticket machines? Or place an actual person at each machine to check the signatures?
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Old Apr 17th, 2014, 12:25 PM
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I am not 100% positive, but I believe you have the option of adding a PIN to a credit card. I know when I first received my Visa card I had (and declined) the option to add a pin...
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Old Apr 17th, 2014, 12:55 PM
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zoobiechick : >>will need to get some pounds and a travelcard and on to Fleet River rooms. Hopefully my US debit/atm will not fail me.>I believe you have the option of adding a PIN to a credit card. I know when I first received my Visa card I had (and declined) the option to add a pin…
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Old Apr 17th, 2014, 01:19 PM
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janisj...while that is the conventional wisdom and I've always believed that is so but a new dimension has opened up about this (it's been part of a 263 page thread on flyer talk).

People have begun to purchase devices that allow you to read (but not copy) the contents of the emv chips. It turns out that in some situations, the ATM pin will work in an emv transaction. It's a matter of priorities and also a matter of online or offline. I'm not all that technologically sophisticated to understand some of the jargon being thrown around but people have sworn, and I have no reason to doubt them although I did originally when this came up, that they used the cash advance pin with a chip and signature card and lo and behold it worked. But not every time.

It's all part of the process we are undergoing in the USA with the introduction of emv chips. The banks seem steadfast that Americans prefer signature verification and it appears, although it is not written in stone, that when emv comes to the USA in October 2015, signature verification will be the norm in the USA with the ability, in the case of unpersonneled kiosks, to fall back to pin verification. That is the way many of the fcu's are set up today and Barclay's Bank has announced it will be adding emv to its arrival line of cards (it already has to its Hawaian Arilines card) but will be signature verification preferred.

But as I said, none of this is set in stone.
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Old Apr 17th, 2014, 01:38 PM
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anyegr...In answer to your question, I don't want to transfer the whole 263 page and growing thread from flyer talk. You're welcome to go through it but this came up there about 50 pages ago. Currently, well we'll use the Andrews FCU so called chip and pin card as an example. Yes it's advertised as chip and pin. Yes it will work in unpersonneled kiosks which require an offline pin but in a card is present transaction, its first priority is chip and signature. And there is nothing the consumer can do to alter that. If the pos terminal is capable of processing chip and signature transactions, you cannot force it to go to chip and pin. The problem is that some merchants become very confused when a receipt starts to be printed and under the mistaken impression their liability might be compromised and so refuse to process the transaction and void it. So now that the American banks have apparently decided this is the way they want the American version of emv to work, they want to make sure that this problem doesn't spread. So they are working with the credit card providers such as mastercard and visa to make it clear chip and signature at least in card is present transactions is the standard. The eu seems to be on board with this. But to repeat the prhrase I just used, none of this is set in stone. Is it more American contrary mindness not to do things the same way the rest of the world does? Are the banks correct that Americans, because of the size of the payment industry in the USA carry more credit cards than most other places (in the USA almost every bank issues credit cards and there are hundreds and thousands of them whereas in most other countries, only 4 or 5 banks issue cards) so that it is a royal pain in the you know what to have separate pins for every card (of course you could change your pins to always be the same if the ability to choose pins is included in the deal but that's not very smart either)? Americans love efficiency, they argue, and signature verification is much quicker than pin verification. Finally they claim by its very nature simply having the emv chip will more or less make the cloning of cards much more difficult (the internatl mechanism of the emv chip is constantly changing the verification codes which are very hard to copy) so chip and signature is almost as secure as chip and pin. We can argue that till the chickens come home to roost. But also there is the question of US liability laws regarding fraudulent use of a card and it has been argued that with chip and pin, the consumer becomes more liable as if somebody gets a hold of their pin, it's sort of evidence of carlessness with the pin.

I'm not trying to defend it one way or another. Personally my only interest in this is to make sure that 100% of the time, my credit card will be honored. I don't really care if it's chip and pin or chip and signature. None of this will cut down on online fraud anyway which is the largest source of credit card fraud.

Still remains to be thrashed out and everything could change tomorrow as an executive at visa claims a more secure emv chip card is coming (but then again so is Chrstmas).
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Old Apr 17th, 2014, 03:10 PM
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Just got back from Germany (and France and Poland, briefly). I used my Andrews FCU Visa card at machines all over the place - never a problem. However, even though I technically have a PIN, I question if it is really ever needed. I did type my PIN when buying from a French train station ticket machine, but I wonder if I could have typed any PIN like 0000 and had it work there. All of the Deutsche Bahn train station ticket machines accepted my Andrews card for purchase without a PIN - never asked for one (or a signature) even for purchases as large as 59 Euros, which kind of surprised me. I guess I'm lucky I didn't lose that credit card or anyone could have used it all over the place at these automated machines without being stopped.

FYI, I also used my Southwest Airlines Chase Visa (no chip; also no foreign currency exchange fee) at all of my hotels and even a few restaurants The old magnetic strip Visa cards still work fine at many establishments, at least in Germany.
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Old Apr 18th, 2014, 12:14 PM
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This Visa card (American Airlines) DOES have a chip, and probably as was the case with Joan, I had an option to get a PIN but declined. If that was the case (memory fails me) I could probably request one, but after the responses to my post, I feel reasonably confident things will be okay. We won't be driving, just public transport and most of it is already paid for. I do wonder though, our hotel in Bayeux only accepts cash. For a roughly $600 stay, I'm a bit concerned about being able to get that much from an ATM. Any experience with that? It's Le Lion d'Or and I booked on Expedia.
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Old Apr 18th, 2014, 12:25 PM
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Oh, and add to that the WW2 beach tour at roughly 200 euros, plus money for food, etc., so yikes! How to get all that for a short stay... Should I just bring some US dollars for this leg of the trip and exchange at a bank in Bayeux?
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Old Apr 18th, 2014, 12:28 PM
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The AA Visa card lets you get a PIN for cash withdrawals, in the same way you have a PIN for your ATM/Debit card. Or any other non-chip Visa card. (And not a recommended way to withdraw cash by the way with a Visa cash advance - very expensive.) Had you gotten a PIN for the AA card, it would not have helped you at an automated machine for making purchases in Europe, would not have worked unless you were trying to make expensive cash advance withdrawals from an ATM machine.

Can't you take out enough Euros from the ATM machines by taking out the maximum per day from an ATM (with your ATM or debit card) before you get to Bayeux? Or is Bayeux your first night in Europe? Find out from your US bank what the maximum withdrawal amount is per day, round that down in Euros, and do the math. At worst, bring a few hundred bucks of US cash with you and change it and just pay the fee for currency exchange so you have enough to pay.
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Old Apr 18th, 2014, 12:34 PM
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I would never use a cc for withdrawals from an atm. I'll need to check on that max daily withdrawal. We'll be in Bayeux after a few days in Paris. Ugh. It would be easier to just whip put the plastic, but most of our expenses in Bayeux are cash only.
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Old Apr 18th, 2014, 12:36 PM
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I would never use a cc for withdrawals from an atm. I'll need to check on that max daily withdrawal. We'll be in Bayeux after a few days in Paris. Ugh. It would be easier to just whip out the plastic, but most of our expenses in Bayeux are cash only.
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