p2katz

HI
Has anyone had a problem using a US credit card in England? -- I'm pretty sure it doesn't have the chip -- although I do have a pin. The customer service credit card people didn't seem to be very helpful.

xyz123

As long as you are at a manned (or womanned) cashier position, you should have no problems. 99.9% of the terminals take both kinds of credit cards. Sometimes, especially if you're off the beaten track where there aren't all that many tourist types, you might run into a clerk who doesn't now what to do but generally the manager is around.

Even many of the automatic machines, at least say on the London underground, will take the antiquated US magnetic strip credit cards so that although in some countries there is a bit of a problem in using antiquated US credit cards especially in say automaic petrol pumps or machines on the metro you won't have too many problems in the UK.

(Incidentally, the pin is meaningless. It's only used when you take cash advances from an ATM...it will do no good in a chip and pin terminal, the card will not be read nor will the clerk be prompted to ask for a pin)

emily71

This comes up frequently. In all the major tourist areas, they will be able to run it through the old machines. I've never had a problem, usually I just tell the clerk my card doesn't have a chip and they usually ask if I'm American!

Oddly, the only place I had a problem was in a Waitrose in Central London where they made me show them my passport(!) in order to confirm I was the owner of the card.

p2katz

Thanks for your replies -- I was getting very nervous, but I think we should be fine

CherylCK

The only thing I can add is that I've recently heard that PINS starting with a 0 may not be recognizable in some places in Europe. Heard this from my cc co.

Ackislander

xyz123, your use of the term "antiquated" is offensive and ignorant.

Chip and PIN cards were developed for use where security is poor. Communications security in the US is sufficiently advanced that they are not required here. Only with debit cards, where the person with the card has access to one's entire bank account -- one of the reasons I do not use debit cards -- is the additional security of a PIN required.

Similarly, in XX years of dining in restaurants in the US, I have never felt the slightest qualm when the waiter disappears with my card, nor have I been cheated or had my number stolen. Would I be equally comfortable in Italy? No, because my card has been hijacked there even when the charges were run on the little reader they bring to the table.

Alec

The only place you may encounter difficulties are fuel stations when they are unmanned, esp those attached to supermarkets, where only chip & pin cards are accepted at the pumps. I have experience with Tesco, Sainsbury and Asda stations, and all take c&p cards only when the station is unmanned (some Asda stations are unmanned round the clock).
This shouldn't be a huge problem as there are other manned 24-hour stations in most town and cities, and even in rural areas most stations are open at least 8 am to 8 pm.

mbgg

I just returned from London and I had problems with my "no-chip" Mastercard, particularly because I was staying in a suburb where few tourists visit. The store clerks had no idea what to do and it all became a big hassle so I decided to take cash out of the ATM and enjoy my vacation.

originalkk

The only place where my credit card has been hi-jacked has been in the US, when used in hotels. I fail to see how "Communications security in the US is sufficiently advanced" to prevent card fraud. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of it beyond occasionally being asked for ID when using the card (if the salesperson can be bothered).

Chip and pin is an extra layer of security to make it harder for cards to be used fraudulently, which has had some effect in the UK, though is itself far from being a complete solution.

xyz123

Ackislander...either you are a banker or don't get it. Even if chip and pin is only marginally more secure (*and I don't think anybody can argue it isn't more secure, the only question being just how much more secure), the failure of the USA in this matter is still inconveniencing many of its citizens who travel and for that reason alone, just like use of the metric system, just like the use of different frequencies for its mobile phone networks (indeed different technologies) is reason enough to convert or at the very least, make chip and pin cards available to those who feel they need them without going to the expense of converting the whole payment system. Will something better come down the road in the future? Of course but that's true in all technologies. At a certain point you have to join the club and live with having to upgrade later.

And I have had my number cloned in the USA by having to give my card to a waiter and having him or her disappear in some back room. Even if they don't want to adopt chip and pin, restaurants should be required to use the portable terminals they bring to your table at European restaurants where they swipe the card in front of you and hand you the terminal to enter the tip. The card never leaves my sight.

As far as showing ID, mc/visa regulations prohibit a merchant from refusing to complete a mc/visa transaction on condition of showing id. Theft of a credit card number (and I agree with you about using debit cards BTW as opposed to vanilla ATM cards) is really no big deal. You are not liable, a couple of phone calls and the matter is resolved (it's happened to me three times in my life and most likely in resturants where they stole my info with the card in some back room). The only inconvenient thing is notifying those utility companies where you have automatic pay from the card agreements (I have a few and it's hard to keep track but then again when I get a new card with a new expiration date or new CCV number I have the same problem). But identity theft, which becomes more possible if the vermin get say your driver's license number which they can steal from your driver's license or passport number is a far more serious problem. I will not under any circumstances show anybody ID touse a credit card, at least in the United States where I know the mc/visa regulations say the transaction cdannot be refused (these regs may not apply outside the USA, I will concede).

The magnetic strip is antiquated and does lead to somewhat more fraud. But the rationale of the banks is that their losses from fraud are less than the cost of converting the entire USA payment system and while it is understandable, it still doesn't preclude them from issuing chip and pin cards those those who wish to use them in foreign countries. That would nto cost them very much.

Ackislander

I am not a banker, but I have bankers (well, merchant bankers) in the family.

Every time I come up with an idea that would make my life more convenient, one of the MBA's will say, "But you are an outlier. How many people are there like you?"

How many Americans have passports? How many Americans travel abroad? People on this forum do, lots. Most Americans, no.

Have I ever been inconvenienced abroad by the lack of a chip and pin card? Only in the Paris transportation systems and now they (and Velib) increasingly manage both. So the cost of making the world easier for people like me and the people who write on this forum is prohibitive.

Telephones? You are absolutely and completely correct, though one of the blessings for me of going abroad is not having to take a telephone! There is no reason that telephones should not follow a worldwide standard just as wifi does.

On the other hand, there is driving on the left and using sterling, which inconvenience just about everyone except yourselves!

So, yes, there is plenty of inconvenienc to go around!

travelgourmet

Never had a problem using US credit cards in the UK. Just tell them it doesn't have a PIN.

<i>it still doesn't preclude them from issuing chip and pin cards those those who wish to use them in foreign countries.</i>

Except that, currently, the banks would have to choose which country they want the chip-and-PIN to work in. My Danish PIN, for example, will not work in the UK. Similarly, the PIN for my Swiss card will not work in Denmark. It is only recently that European networks have begun converging around the EMV standard, and there remain laggard countries, as well as markets where penetration of credit cards lags generally (which is pretty much all of Europe).

Accordingly, introduction of the cards in the US has been hampered by a) the much lower rates of fraud in the US; b) the much larger installed base of credit card processing machines and the greater cost to replace; c) the relatively low level of international spending by most cardholders, which lowers demand; and d) the fact that trying to create a broadly-compatible card was, until recently, an exercise in frustration. For reference, the movement toward EMV in Europe has taken something like 15 years! Now that Europe is finally getting their act together and making their own systems relatively compatible, I suspect you will start to see some card issuers begin to offer compliant cards, but it was, frankly, a waste of time up until maybe the past year or so.

Frankly, I suspect that the US would do very well to simply skip the whole EMV dance and move toward the next generation of mobile and contactless payments technologies. Chip-and-PIN will largely be obsolete before it ever becomes a true global standard. Heck, given the very low levels of market penetration for credit cards in Europe, I am doubtful that any European-led standard will manage to become the global standard, without US acceptance.

<i>Even if chip and pin is only marginally more secure</i>

If the US's current technology were so deficient, then one would assume that there would be a huge volume of credit card fraud in the US. Given the fact that the credit card market is so much bigger in the US than elsewhere, one would think that the US would be leading the way toward better security, at least if the security procedures currently in use were ineffective or onerous. The lack of such movement in the US suggests strongly that this is not the case.

<i>just like use of the metric system</i>

Good God, not the metric system again. There is no reason to switch. And what minor difficulties that exist are readily remedied with a smartphone.

<i>just like the use of different frequencies for its mobile phone networks (indeed different technologies)</i>

Why should the US converge to the European standard? Given that China has more mobile phone users than the EU, why not switch to their standards? Frankly, you make it seem like the US is refusing to adopt a global standard, but this is simply not the case, as there is no global standard. Try using most phones in Japan or Korea (two countries which set the pace for mobile technology) and you will see what I mean.

Regardless, switching to a global standard for mobile phone networks would be a massive waste of time, money, and effort, as it is much, much, much, much, much easier to simply build mult-band phones. Your phone doesn't work in a foreign country? Buy a better phone and your problem is solved.

Michel_Paris

Well...we have chip and pin in Canada for the last couple of years. I would assume conditions in Canada and the US are similar (?).

I would humbly suggest that the US, in the area of finances, does have an small bias against change. Such as the lack of $2 bills, colours for different bills, no coins larger than 25 cents commonly in use,etc..

xyz123

Michael.....we have both a 50 cent coin and a $1 coin...people don't use them and some use the argument that nobody uses the $1 coin to justify the drain on the treasury caused by continuing to print $1 bills...we also have a $2 bill but again hardly anybody uses them.

The silly thing is that a study has just come out showing the US Treasury is losing millions by not getting rid of the $1 bill and substituting a $1 coin that is well something larger than a quarter and nice and distinct (talk distinct, if you've ever seen a UK £1 coin, as soon as you reach into your pocket, you know it's a £1 coin.

But it's all part of my feeling that the US simply likes to be contrary minded but I suppose the pragmatic reasons for so many of these failures to go along with the rest of the world is the costs to make these changes and the feeling there would be a great deal of resiswtance. Even our British friends were able to get an exemption from the eu when they went metric to not have to change all the highwaty signs to kilometers probably as a compromise to save costs.

But back to this topic for a second, the eu is beginning to stick its nose into these things. As I understand it, merchants in Europe can now refuse to accept any non chip credit card and I really wonder what the reaction of the US banks would be if it was declared that as of pick a date, only emv cards will be acceptable in the eu. It hasn't happened yet but it could.

GreenDragon

If anyone is still worried about it, you can get a Cash Passport from Travelex or Thomas Cook. It's a prepaid chip-and-pin card in the local currency - preset limit, no connection with your own credit card or bank account, and no worries about chip-and-pin OR dynamic currency conversion.

travelgourmet

<i>Well...we have chip and pin in Canada for the last couple of years. I would assume conditions in Canada and the US are similar (?).</i>

Credit card market penetration is higher in the US than in Canada. That is in addition to the much larger installed base, simply as a result of the greater population. There is also much more market fragmentation, with roughly 10k US banks with more than $100m (or more) in deposits, compared to something like 60 banks in all of Canada. Now, not all of those 10k US banks issue credit cards, but I suspect there are substantially more card issuers per capita in the US.

<i>I would humbly suggest that the US, in the area of finances, does have an small bias against change.</i>

Change for the sake of change is pointless. Is it a bias, or simply a case that the benefits do not exceed the costs? Just because Europeans do something doesn't mean that it is irrational or wrong that Americans don't follow suit.

The credit card market in the US is exceedingly competitive. Were the demand for chip-and-PIN cards substantial, then somebody would offer them. I'm sorry, but the case is simply not compelling, even for the very frequent traveler, due to lack of harmonization among countries using chip-and-PIN. Expect to see the introduction of chip-and-PIN cards in the US (though not the terminals) over the next couple of years, as the Europeans finally converge around a single, inter-operable standard. You want to blame someone for the lack of uptake in the US? Blame the slow rate of convergence in ROW markets that has left us with a jumble of incompatible systems.

<i>Such as the lack of $2 bills, colours for different bills, no coins larger than 25 cents commonly in use,etc</i>

Well, the US does use multiple colors on their bills, as well as numerous other anti-counterfeiting technologies built into the paper and the printing process. Aside from preventing counterfeiting, there is no compelling reason to introduce boldly-colored bills.

travelgourmet

<i>As I understand it, merchants in Europe can now refuse to accept any non chip credit card </i>

This would be a violation of the terms of use for all the major credit card companies and violators can find themselves without the ability to accept any cards. At the end of the day, it is not in the interest of the credit card companies to allow customers to refuse their cards, and this will prevent widespread refusal to accept magnetic stripe cards.

Christina

why would some restaurant or store want to refuse business?

xyz123

I was in Amsterdam this past February. I wanted to buy a train ticket and the yellow machine went through the whole process, inserted my antiquated American credit card and it would not take it, okay something I'm used to at unmanned or unwomanned automatic machines in Europe. Over to the window where a man was behind the counter, walked up to the window and was told they do not take antiquated American credit cards. Why would the Dutch national railroads want to refuse business?

For all the it's no big deal you're hearing and reading here, it is an increasing problem in Europe and now that Canada has seen the light, it might become a problem when travelling to Canada. From what I've read, one of the arguments against chip and pin is that it shifts liability for unauthorized charges to the merchants so that could be one reason.

For all the arguments here, I am not convinced that this is something whose time has come and, as I said while I can accept that it would be very expensive to convert the whole payment system in the United States, merchants are constantly replacing terminals. They do wear out. Many merchants have already installed a new generation of terminals. All wal-marts, I believe, can now process EMV chip and pin cards so rather than having the banks say to us you don't need them, all merchants take our antiquated cards, why not make chip and pin available, for the extra money it costs them to produce one, perhaps 50¢ to those willing to pay to be sure they have more options rather than to get caught in Amsterdam without enough euro to get to the airport! It just seems to be a no brainer despite what I've read here.

travelgourmet

<i>I wanted to buy a train ticket and the yellow machine went through the whole process, inserted my antiquated American credit card and it would not take it, okay something I'm used to at unmanned or unwomanned automatic machines in Europe.</i>

They don't take Swiss or Danish cards that have chips either. Sorry, but it isn't the lack of a chip that is the problem. The problem is the overly-limited machines that the Dutch chose to install.

Again, I have credit cards with and without chips. The ones I have with chips rarely, if ever, work outside of the country of issue. Just this past Sunday, I had to sign for items at LHR, because the British chip-and-PIN system is not compatible with Danish cards. Even a European bank can't issue you a card that will work everywhere in Europe, but it is the US that is 'antiquated'? I'm sorry, but the product you want (a card that works seamlessly in chip-and-PIN terminals in Europe) simply isn't available yet, and that is the fault of the balkanized European systems, not some reflexive US aversion to antiquated-at-introduction technology. When the Europeans manage (after 15 years) to get all their machines talking to each other and using the same system, then you can expect the US banks to offer cards that will work, but I suspect that they have little interest in investing in a technology that the Europeans, to date, can't seem to get right.

<i>From what I've read, one of the arguments against chip and pin is that it shifts liability for unauthorized charges to the merchants so that could be one reason.</i>

The merchants already carry this liability in the US.